Official E for All Firsthand Impressions Thread

Gea said:

"the game is much slower. wavedashing is gone and fox is nerfed also shorthopping seems hard or impossible on the wiimote. smash attacks are much slower"

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Gea said:

i'm plsying dsf now. meta is not broken. fox is way nerfed and so is peaches dsmash. di is weird but more effective and weight differences are more pronounced.

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silversh4d0w said:

I don't know what people know, but i just talked to Gimpy and some Oregon people on the phone who have been playing a Brawl demo setup for 1v1 with the classic controller, here's what they've said so far:

no wavedashing and no wavelanding

airdodging is like how we predicted, just go with momentum,

Fox can SH triple laser.
Fox can jump out of shine, but it requires that you hold down and B, you can't let go or he'll go into a different animation, hold down and b and then jump.

Bowser is hardcore.
Claw is ridiculous
Bowser will probably be top tier
Up+B out of shield is same, just as powerful.

Samus has a dark suit red visor, Fusion suit, Sonic costumes are recolors of blue, Fox has a starwolf outfit. Diddy Kong has Dixie Kong outfit without the hair, Bowser has a golden costume, made out of gold.

Mario's fsmash is so slow,

Samus can't missile cancel, animation doesn't stop, hard to do though.
Bomb jumping is tough, hitting bombs not directly on top of them knocks you to the side.
If you die as zero suit, you stay as zero suit, you can't automatically be zero suit like changing from Zelda to Sheik at the beginning of a round.

Samus charged shot isn't strong, peach was shot with it fully charged at 87% didn't kill.

Can catch edge even if you're facing wrong way, edgehogging is easy. Edgehogging will be the new edgeguard of choice, characters ‘click’ to it.


Peach is nerfed.
Peach’s dsmash is nerfed, no range
Float canceling not sure
Peach seems heavier

Sonic, not as good as you expect
moves don't have much knockback, kind of 'loose',
all the new chars, he's least popular, hardest learning curve

Do an aerial that has forward momentum and when you land it’s almost the same as a waveland. Certain moves / aerials have less friction/traction,

DI is more pronounced, you can get out of stuff a lot easier, takes knockback easier, can survive until 150.

L-canceling is not in as far as we can tell.

How does the game feel: Feels slower, definitely, on classic, feels awkward, accidentally jump alot, can't SH on the wiimote, everyone is so floaty. Brawl plays really differently, it’s awkward for now because not used to it. Not a lot of lag for moves, maybe lag lowered for sake of demo.

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Vortok said:

I tried L-Cancelling with Link's dair repeatedly this morning. All seemed to recover at the same speed as doing a dair without trying to L-cancel. And if a long recovery time like that isn't l-cancelable... doubt anything else would be. So that appears out.

I reconfirmed momentum dodging. You either can't control the direction at all (aside from being going in the direction you want before you air dodge, lol), or it's very very minor. It doesn't give any type of push, so it'll go to your normal trajectory and then start going downwards. So wavedashing as we knew it is indeed gone.

After you air dodge, there's about a 1 second delay (of falling helplessly) before you can do anything. You can jump and even Up B after that, though. I don't recall 100%, but I'm pretty sure that you don't get your jump back if you already used it. I also don't recall testing specifically if you can double air dodge, but it seems likely as long as it doens't give you your jump back and it would also explain the delay after an Air dodge (that way if you're falling to the stage, you can't spam air dodge and be safe all the way down). - So those of you thinking you'll Air Dodge and then do an aerial combo right after as a counterattack (thinking that's how aerial combat would be improved - which I think would've been sweet)... sorry, but not gonna happen..

Crawling seems to be like walljumping was, in that not everyone has it. I did it with Pikachu but couldn't do it with Mario (bah, he could crawl some of his games) or Sonic (so my friend was wrong, I guess). I almost thought that was Pika's walk after I thought about it, but the Nintendo World Video on the Dojo shows Pika using his old walk (along with Mario, right before Wario shows up). So crawling = character specific. --- The input for Pika was just diagonal down.

Dashing dancing appears to be possible, but different. It took me a bit, but I kinda did it with Peach, Ike, and Fox. Fox looked the most like oldschool dash dancing, whereas when I did it with the other two it was taking me longer to turn around (think Zelda's dance dash...). I kept jumping out of Fox's... but it's not like I'm used to using the Classic Controller.

I didn't see an opening dash move for Fox (where it'd be most noticeable to me) when I tested, so foxtrotting looks to be gone.

We already knew this, but shorthop and fastfall are still there. Also, you can jump directly out of your shield (was shielding with Fox, and hit a jump button on Classic Controller and he jumped out of it).


As Zauron isn't going to have the time to keep this thread updated, I'll post a full report of what I've learned in the Impressions thread. Prolly 5 hours from now or so, as I don't want to start on it at work, but not be able to finish it. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121130



Lastly, Dark Link looks friggin' awesome. If you think otherwise after seeing him, you need to have your eyes checked and/or may not have the ability to recognize sheer awesomeness (in which case the rest of us both pity and laugh at you). - Think Black Link from Melee. Now makes his skin dark brown (think... really severe tan). Now make his eyes glow red. And that's Dark Link in a nutshell.

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I will elaborate later but for right now this is a list of things I have seen or played.

- Sonic's costumes: they are only recolors of blue with different wristbands. Kinda lame.

- Bowser is pretty much the same since melee except fsmash is WEAKER now and he has some awesome biting taunts and a golden outfit. Seriously awesome. He can still up +B out of the shield and it rawks.

-Fox actually isn't THAT nerfed. he has an outfit that kinda looks like starwolf except not grey enough. His shine CAN be jump cancelled but it is really strange. You have to hold down + B WHILE hitting jump or you IMMEDIATELY go into the "unshining" animation. This new quick "unshine" lets you multishine really easily in the air by just tapping down B. His uair and usmash are a bit weaker but still kill well. You can still shinespike but it has less stun and knockback. Shine doesn't clank with as nearly as many things anymore, and Fox's fair is better.

-Ike's Final smash is weird. You have to be like RIGHT NEXT to someone but if it lands it is an awesome combo resulting in a one hit KO. Metaknights is kinda the same way but with one slash. Donkey Kong's is the easiest to dodge by just not being close to him. ZSS's final smash is just turning back into Samus with damage if you touch her while she goes back into Samus mode.

-Diddy is actually quite speedy with attacks and has a good variety of moves. Donkey Kong is like Bowser, almost exactly the same with a few tweaks. Diddy's moves are kind of like a Luigi-fied DK's. He also has a costume with Dixie's colors (pink).

Metaknight isn't broken and actually no characters really dominated. Peach's turnips seem to almost always come out "regular" and her whorenado has been nerfed but it can still be CCed for massive damage. Samus can still CCC with her dtilt but missle cancelling is gone. Bomb jumping is really hard and not really beneficial with Samus because of how floaty you are and how small the stages are. DI is really weird but I will get into that later.

One more thing before I go (for now):

Fox's lasers have less range, but you can now short hop TRIPLE laser. Epic.

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Got in another round.

Mario's Down + A in mid air performs the Mario tornado move. I don't think you can do it while grounded.

New Assiist Trophy I saw:
Saki from Sin and Punishment: Successors to the Earth. He follows you and shoots you and if you get close he takes out his sword to slash you. By following, from what I observed is that he moves up and down platforms... not sure if he gets closer or not.

One of Link's other color includes gold
Ike has another win pose.

In Norfair, to not take damage from the tidal wave you must be inside the bluedoor when the tidalwave arrives. Anyone outside the blue door --which usaully covers a small platform -- takes damage. The blue doors are on both sides of the tube and closes when the tidal wave arrives. IT then dissapears afterwards.

Sonic's spring can be destroyed.

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I'm here at the E for All PRes room and I've just played 3 rounds of SSBB. What details do you want me to find out for you?

Here are my reports in Ike:

Definitely slower than Marth...maybe even Roy. Partially due to gamespeed being lowered from Melee.

Foward Smash Attack is a huge two handed swing that leaves you open for a long while. Not, good in that respect.

Down+Special equals counter. Can counter projectiles too, according to Nintendo rep but I don't know if he'll bat it back or not. He flashes blue when he performs it.

Foward + B is a rush attack and it can be charged.

B (special) standard is something similar to Marth/Roy's standing special and can also be charged.

Up+B is Aether. Similar to Kirby's attack except he throws his sword up and stays on the ground until the sword reaches the peak of the thrown, then he brings it down like the latter part of Kirby's up+b special. it's cool in that you can safely attack aerial attackers with this but you're open on the ground during the animation the whole time.

Dodge is quick, and good. His back roll isn't a roll, rather, it's like Mewtwo's backdash. Not sure on front roll.

His final smash is "Shinkuu Aether." Starts out like Aether except he continously attacks the person in the air and then sends the person slamming down onto the floor before Ike follows on top with a finishing blow.

I'll try to be more specific as to Marth and Roy differences on next play through. Marth users will be dissapointed at Ike's speed and how long his smash attack leaves him open.
---
"I grow tired of the foolish foolery of the foolish fools of this foolish country. . ." - Franziska von Karma (PW:AA:JFA)

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Ok...just played a lot more.

Here are observations and impressions:

Meta-Knight. This guy is an easy character to like. some Alt colors = gold and bright pink. Some descriptions.

Up+B is his rising attack. I believe he jumps first and then attacks and he goes fairly high. The catch is that you float down kind of slow. You MAY be able to follow through with an attack afterwards...so maybe some sort of cancel. Not that I've seen it but there looks to be a window of opprtunity for it.

B. Tornado. One hit = either 3% or 7% damage..I forgot which. Leaning towards 3. you can control the tornado for a a short period after activating it and can keep it going longer by either pressing b rapidly or holding B the whole time...I forgot... Sorry. Anyways. I wouldn't say it's cheesy cause the damage is fairly low per hit but it's a very good move. The attack has no knockback power so you can get in consecutive hits with the tornado.

Down+B I used it but never hit with it. Meta knight dissapears thaen suddenly reappears. Dunno if it's an attack or not.

Foward + B. With this attack he basically puts the sword over his head and spins himself towards the opponent head first. The speed isn't great but it's useful.

Standing rapid A. Consecutive slashes all around his body. Unlike some of the rapid A moves in Melee you don't have to press the buttons too fast to activate.

Up+A (not smash) Think of a shoryuken with a sword in one hand and if for that shoryuken one foot never leaves the ground. So the range of the attack is directly above.

Run+ A - Similar to Kirby's

Metaknight is really easy to use and get the hang of, hence why it's a favorite of the folks here. Speed is fair too. Can dish out lots of consecutive attacks.

Pit:


Some Colors: Red w/ white wings, black w/ black wings, blue w/ blue wings.

Down + B - Mirror Shield. Dunno what happens if a projectile hits it but Sonic's spindash bounces right off the shield. Right after Sonic bounces off the shield I think Pit can move while Sonic is in recoil.

Standing B - Arror shot. Can apparently make it curve slightly up or down. Faster or at the same speed with Link's arrows. But arrows are longer and slightly larger.

Foward + B he moves foward about 3 character lengths or so and spins his weapon. You can keep it spinning a bit I think,

Up + B Not an attack. Just gives you temporary flight ability. You glow while you do it. Very awesome.

Don't have the A attacks yet. Will try and get tomorrow. I forgot them...

Fox:

Slower. A lot slower. Sonic looks to be faster. I used his reflector on my opponents but I could never seem to get them to fly up. They always hit the ground and away from Fox. Do you have to come in with a down+A first then reflect to get them to fly up? Still not sure on whether he has that 1 frame recovery.

Alternate black costume has him looking like Wolf McDonald. No Eye patch though.

Sonic: Pretty cool but I didn't get the hang of him right away. used him only once. All his specials involve spin dashing save his Up + B

Hold B -- Sonic spins in place really fast. So fast that he starts to float and then finally towards the direction you're facing. I don't know if he can do damage while spinning if you do not let go of B to launch him.

Foward + B Spin dash... You don't rise this time. The longer you charge the faster you go. This attack was seen in Sonic's intro vid.

Down + B ... He spins in place really quick. Not sure what its efffects are. Never hit with it.

Smash + A . If you hold A Sonic keeps winding up his punch in a windmill motion before releasing it into a strong standing right hook.

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Misc.
Link has blue alt costume. A hit from the boomerang = 6% damage. Not sure what happens if the wind gets you though.

Peach has a solid red dress as alternate costume.

Diddy hass purple as alternate color

Non-charged superscore range is about half the distance as in melee.

Electrode is one of the pokemons. No one tried to pick him up though.

Fox's blaster seems to be either same speed or sliiiiightly slower.

Ike has Marth's Melee colors as alternate costume. From far away he looks like Marth.

Samus has a slightly off gold color.

Mario has Wario's yellow+purple combo as alt costume

Nook is in background at smashville on leftside sometimes. One time I saw him in the 7-11 type (forgot what his first store upgrade is called) and another in Nook's cranny outfit. The characters present seem to change each time you play. Or maybe it's cause it's the time of day. Sometimes I see the hair salon poodle, or Brewster, and some others I don't recall. One of the charas is the female player chara who reacts as to what is going on on-screen. Funny to see her freaking out and sweating.

Samus plays muc h the same I think. Perhaps a bit more hang time in air cause of slower game speed overall.


Will play melee for better comparisons tomorrow.

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groundpoundteak said:

ike's fs: supposedly like links but moves and is electric

metanigths fs: if makes contact with sum1, screen goes black, a slash mark appears diagonally across the screen, ****** n e 1 who comes in way

pit's moves: side b is charging attack with spinning the bow quickly down b: is a sheild of light

diddy's moves: down, throw banana peele, side: charge with fist of fury, dash a: cartwhell

snoics moves: neutral b, homing attack side b: charging dash( jumping enabled) down b: spinning in place (unaware of effects)

alt costumes: sonic(diff shades of blu and 1 black one) diddy (green, blu purple, and dixie kong 0_o) link (red, blu , green, purple, dark link, gold), ike: (copies of marth in melee), fox (wolf o donnel), samus (fusion suit, gold suit), bowser (golden) mario(red, blu, brown, white, yellow, green), dk(white, green, red blu), metaknight(red, green, dark, pink)

bowser:side=claw and jump, if jump makes contact, uber throw down.

btw: yoshi's up b is worse than everything that happened ever

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Magical Marinara said:

I'll make a list of stuff.

Characters

Metaknight- Pretty awesome. I won a couple times using him. His B-moves are: Standard, a tornado that does little damage, but protects against projectiles. B-side, some harpoon-ish attack, where he really drills into it. You can alter the course up and down, and it really stacks up damage against multiple opponents. A nice touch is that at the end, you go a nice bit up in the air, so if you accidentally go off the edge, no worries. Up-B is like the ******* child of Marth's and Peach's. It goes high and automatically makes you glide. Gliding is pretty easy, and you can go up and down. Down-B is a little interesting. He blinks out of view and then appears and slices (he goes down to the floor if you use it in midair). It's a really nice move to dodge and counterattack with. His standard A moves are gnarly, but I'm not sure where the sweet spot for his sword is, but there definitely is one. His grabs, from what I saw, are fairly normal. His Final Smash has him sweep out his cloak in a large area in front of him. If anyone gets caught in it...the action slows down and screen fades to black. And BAM, it reappears with a huge slice across the screen, murdering those that got caught in it.

Pit- Also pretty nifty. Godlike (lol) recovery. He cut's stuff up pretty **** fast. I didn't play as him unfortunately (I don't know why :/) but his Up-B I know makes him sprout wings and fly around at will. I saw a Pit recover from right near the bottom of the screen with that move, it's insane how good it is. Plus the fact he can do multiple jumps I'm pretty sure like Metaknight/Kirby can...He shoots his bow, and the arrows are pretty cool. I saw them being shot in different directions, and the shots are fast and don't need much charging like Link's. His Final Smash is a lot better then I thought it would be. He shouts out and pretty Palutena appears, followed soon by a bunch of little soldiers. These guys actively seek out enemies and do really nice damage and knockback.

Sonic- Dear God, he's fast. Like friggin' ZOOOOOOOM with his dash, easily outspeeding Falcon and Fox from Melee, and he accelerates from his walk-to-run very fast too. Unfortunately, I played him on the Classic Controller as opposed to sideways-Wiimote, which I was not used too, so I didn't get to see what special move is where, but you knew he had the Spin Dashes and Bounce-top thing. He's pretty powerful on the ground, but it seems he's weak aerially. He's pretty slippery too, like Luigi. His final smash is obviously Super Sonic. It's disappointed to see that he can be pretty much easily dodged by rolling or spot-dodging when he comes by for a run, so it may be best to slow down and instead of ram the enemy, just slowly go into them, to increase accuracy. The Chaos Emeralds also do a little damage at the end of it.

Ike- He's similar to Marth/Roy, but not a whole lot. Most of his A moves are completely different, and very powerful. His B moves are: Standard-B is a move where he stabs the ground and in front of him gets blasted with some fiery stuff. It's chargeable too. Side-B is sort of like Fox's side-b, but again, it's chargeable, and it's less of a warp and more of a very fast sideways-movement. His Up-B is kinda like Kirby's, but without the shockwave, and more delay. It goes very high up, but not very far horizontally as far as recovery goes, but that's what the side-b is for. Down-B is counter, like Marth and Roy had. His Final Smash is in the vein of Link's and Metaknights, in the sense that it has a pretty short range. If you do get caught in it, he whacks you up in the air and cuts the hell out of you, with shockwaves in every direction he cuts. Then he slams you down with his sword, and there's huge knockback on that final strike. I saw him do it to someone at 0% and it does a whopping 69% damage total. Very nice.

Diddy Kong- He's pretty dang fast too. He can combo stuff easily, and his standard A-A-A combo ends with a tail whip that's very good and keeps hitting, like Falcon/Fox's standard A combos. His B-moves are: B-Up, Rocket Barrels. These are fun. I'm not sure what triggers them falling off, though I think it's if you get hit while charging them up. In mid-air, you can aim them so you go more sideways. If you charge them, they do very nice knockback. Standard B is his peanut-popgun, which does decent damage and knockback if you charge it. The peanuts are nice too. I forget what his side-b is unfortunately. His down-b has him throw a banana peel on the floor. I'm guessing it works the same as the droppable item. It makes them slip and leaves them very open to attack. His Final Smash is pretty awesome. The barrage he brings is massive, totally wiping up the battlefield in four-player Smash matches. It's also pretty epic the noise it makes, and controlling it is pretty fun too. It's easy to keep people in the air with it, so you don't have to worry about them restoring health from the peanuts.

As far as veterans go, they're pretty much the same. It's a lot easier to pull off attacks as Bowser, and his suplex-throws are pretty amusing. Giga Bowser is fun, and you'll suffer barely any, if any, knockback while under it. Mario's Fludd was hard to aim so I couldn't be sure how well it worked. Pikachu's Final Smash was similar to Sonic's, but instead of knockback, it did a ton of damage on contact. It can also go through walls and floors, unlike Sonic's. Link seems more powerful, and his Gale Boomerang is pretty annoying. Fox doesn't seem to be as leet, what with a slower fall. His Land Master is impressive, but a little unwieldy, and easily dodgeable on levels like Battlefield. Samus seems floatier, and her Final Smash is really powerful. Zero Suit Samus I didn't get to play as, but she seemed pretty gnarly. And ZSS's final smash is a large energy aura around Samus that does a lot of damage if you get caught in it, and also gives her her suit back. Peach's side-b is a little different, and seems to spike them if it hits. Her final smash puts everyone to sleep, and rains peaches from the sky, but I don't know if you throw them or eat them while they sleep.

Costumes are pretty cool. Mario gets his old ones, and also the white-shirt, red-overalls Fire Flower Mario, which looks cool. Peach still has Daisy. Samus has the Phazon Suit from Metroid Prime, but no P.E.D. unfortunately. Pit and Ike just have different colored clothing. Metaknight has one cool-looking yellow suit, and another 'Dark Metaknight'ish thing, where he has red eyes. Link also has Dark Link (!) which looks friggin' awesome. He's shadowy and has scary red eyes. Bowser can bling out his shell with either black and shiny gold, or a bronzed look. Looks awesome. Diddy has different color clothes/fur, and one of them makes him look a lot like Dixie, bar the ponytail. Sonic is just different shades of blue.

As far as items go, they work nearly the same. The Golden Hammer is lulzy in how fast it swings. Pokéball pokes I saw were Torchic, Snorlax, Latios/Latias (who murder, they zoom across the screent turbo fast), Kyogre who just spits water up above the fight, and Gardevoir. Assist Trophies are actually pretty good, and hard to avoid. Knuckle Joe tears things up. Lyn crouches down...waiting, waiting..she sits there for a good while and does noth-BAM mega slice out of nowhere. Dr. Wright was pretty lame, but funny. Metroids latch onto people, and cause damage-over-time, fast. Nintendogs are FRIGGIN' ANNOYING and cover the entire screen for a while. Mr. Resetti is a real laugh...he talks on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on...The text doesn't cover too much of the screen, but the way he rambles forever is hilarious. The Super Spicy Curry is pretty potent, it sends a stream of fireballs in front of you constantly for a while.

Stages:

Battlefield is standard stuff. It goes from day-to-night periodically. Delfino Plaza is nice because it's constantly changing the shape of the field you're on. Yoshi's Island is also entertaining, and the weird ghost platform saved me once. Skyworld is annoying; you bounce off the blocks until they break, so it's a low ceilinged area in the middle stage until they break. You can accidentally fall through the clouds once the platforms break too, including the main cloud platform. Bridge of Eldin is pretty nifty. All flat until Bulbin blasts a hole in the middle. Smashville doesn't have any special quirks. Castle Siege was also nice in the way it changes the battlefield constantly. Lylat Cruise has really nice visuals, especially when you're entering the atmosphere of some planet. The Halberd is deadly once you get on it, what with the lasers of death and such. Pokie Stadium is nice; I got to see the Ground, Electric, and Ice versions. Ice and Electric both make your traction go crazy. Norfair was awesome, there's huge pillars of lava that engulf halfs of the screen as the battle goes on.

God I love that game already. And I talked about Smash Bros. with people while waiting in line too. I checked; no wavedashing in this game, though you can waveland. Also, the three taunts each character has is pretty cool. If you want to know something, ask me and I'll try to answer.

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Eternal phoenix Fire said:

Hello all, I just got back from E For All.

Time to start by saying this: most of the professional smashers were able to make a good transition from Melee mechanics (Except for HugS, no johns) to the Brawl mechanics. Just to inform you, the game feels very different from Melee. Alot of characters in the game play differently, even characters such as Fox have modifications to their playing style. Alot of the control preferance was more towards the singe Wii remote rather than the Classic Controler (Even though the CC was infinitly better). I personally has a smoother transition to Melee than most players. Most of us are on a high level of technicality in the game.

Just to get quick to the engine details... Yes, wavedashing is gone, as the Air Dodge is influnced by your momentum. One good thing is that you are able to attack/ jump after and Air Dodge, which I personally enjoyed. L canceling didn't seem to be within the demo either, but it seemed unecessary for most moves, as the lag reduction/hit stun on the moves allowed you to do some chains, even though some moves had alot of lag. Now, the most shocking thing to me...DI. The DI is insane beyond reasoning. I was able to Smash DI out of several combos and live at percentages up to 200%

There are so many things that I can say about the engine change, but the one thing I can say that was dramatic was the floaty engine. Even characters such as Fox were able to maintain aerial attacking fluently, yet, he still had the same Fast Faller Feel. You may think that you can pull an easy Air Combo, but there is more to it than one might think.

There is still alot of stuff I want to cover, but i'm tired, hungry and I want to make some shout outs:

t!mmy & t0mmy- You guys are awsome, period. I had fun hanging with you guys. I'm still sad that I lost my first MetaKnight ditto with you t!mmy, i'll get you back. t0mmy, you're just **** with Pikachu, but everyone was stealing your style up their with the green bandana Pikachu. n00bs.

HugS- No Johns, period. MetaKnight can't kill for sh*t, so just DI. kthxbai

Neal- You're mean.

Gimpyfish- Once again, you're too good with Boozer. Just make sure you take a note that I did the first ever Drillshine in Brawl. You did the first Bowsercide though, lol. Money Match tommorow?

That one Mario- ****...

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maxpower1227 said:

*subscribing to thread by quoting someone else's impressions*:

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FightingGameGuy said:

Here's my first day report on sonic

A sequence: standard three hit

Tilts
forward tilt: sticks out his foot, decent (killable) knockback
dtilt: foot again, this one pops them up for juggling, probably won't kill without ridiculous percentage
uptilt: looks similar to Capt. Falcon's up smash, didn't see the knockback

Smashes
Forward smash: winds up his arm during the charge, attacks with a short range punch. Knockback seems strong (nothing special for forward smashes) but the attack is fast and lacks range making it somewhat tough to connect with against a non-nood opponent like luigis

Down smash: spins dashes back forth over a short distance. Think ness' yoyo but with sonic as the yoyo. Has a somewhat low arc (maybe 45 degrees) and good knockback upon hitting.

Up smash: Like bowser's, sonic does a short jump, and hangs at its apex for a bit doing a spin. Enemy's hit are caught in the spin until the last hit when they go flying out. Nonetheless, the knockback is very, very weak for a smash.

Airs
upair: A flip kick. Might double hit, knocks the opponent up quite strongly.
bair: sticks his leg out. Strong knockback
fair: drills at the enemy, last hit as weak knockback.
dair: a diving kick similar to captain falcon's downb. Pauses in midair, then going flying down at an angle. Has significant lag upon hitting the ground. Decent knockback.


Bs
Neutral B: homing attack. Sonic floats up spinning for up to about a second if you charge it, then going flying at the nearest opponent. It has knockback that can kill at least when fully charged, maybe no matter how charged.

UpB: spring. As already demonstrated, sonic goes way high, and the sping lasts for a significant bit when used on the ground. It does hit in the initial ascent, but doesn't knock back at all. Heck I don't even know if it makes them flinch at all. Nonetheless I've open a smash ball with this move.

Spin attacks down and side b. These seemed very worthless, so I focused my efforts on sonic's other moves. Sorry. I honestly couldn't figure out a significant difference between the two, other than the method of initial charging. In my experience with the spin dashes, charging makes ridges/spikes appear aroudn the sonic ball, though I don't know what the properties are. They seem to be very freely cancelable, by either neutral b or upb and maybe any a. I once might have went into an auto combo after connecting with an opponent in midair, or I might have simply been me canceling it into his fair.

Final Smash - Super Sonic: Screen pauses, chaos emeralds circle into sonic and he does his dbz impression. As of now, sonic cannot perform any attacks while in super sonic form, unlike yoshi. In fact, he cannot even land or pick up items. On the otherhand, he deals significant damage and knockback by simply touching people. He can also perform perhaps the ultimate cheesy ledge grap, by simply floating at the ledge. Pro. A more skillful, use of his final smash, is control sonic in such a why that you not only hit the opponent, but then intersect them again before they really start their recovery.

Throws
I killed someone in sudden death with what I thought was his forward throw. It looked like sonic kicked him, upward, and the opponent went straight up. (thought it was a forward throw but that seems more like an upthrow.) His dthrow is tossing them on the ground and spinning on them.


Taunts
Sides: Figure eight running in place
Down: Break dancing
Up: ?

Properties
Sonic can walljump. (Though few stages have long walls, I believe the edge wall jump trick is still in the game as I think I did it once during part of delfino plaza.)

Sonic is of course very fast along the ground. Thankfully, Sakurai hasn't taken out dash-dashing .... yet. (However, the classic controller is seems much more responsive than the gamecube controller, and dash-dashing was a bit tougher due to unintended jumps) Like the space animals though, he is significantly slower in the air than on the ground, but not nearly to their extent. Nonetheless, he's quite slower aerially than the smash ball, which is very annoying as I have yet to crack it open in a single jump sequence.

Sonic doesn't seem especially light or heavy.

Alternate Colors
Sonic has no special costumes, only color changes as of the demo. When changing a color, his wristbands change to match that color, and he turns a different shade of blue. The color of his person and wristbands do not match, but if he has red wrist bands then I presume he's a more reddish blue, green wristbands, then greenish blue, etc.

Non-Sonic stuff

Unanounced Items: Mario Kart lightning. Get it and all your opponents are zapped and shrunk. Gimpyfish won what may have been the first money match with this incredibly imba ball, going down in history or perhaps infamy depending on your view. Either way I think this item will as the most cheap, powerful, and lamest. (Not that gimpy even knew what it was when he grabbed it or anything)

Assist trophy: Singing? background lady - walks around in the background, radiating a large shimmering orb. This orb reflects all projectiles.

Brinstar: Metroid doors. Miny passages frequently appear on platforms a bit before the lave rises or comes pouring down as a lavafall. You can hit these mini passage on the side, to open them up and take shelter.

As you know wavedashing is out. (Correctly predicted by Zauron and others in the list of Advanced Techniques Thread.)

Meta-Knight doesn't seem that broken, just easy to pick up., especially with b moves that are very easy to hit with coupled with decent smashes.

/edit I'll be checking this thread periodically tonight. Feel free to give more things to research or ask me questions. I plan to try to figure out what the difference is between sonic's side and down bs but I'm honestly pretty tired of him and would prefer to just have fun try out the other characters tomorrow.

/edit #2 A rant: The Wiimote sucks for brawl. I cannot seriously understand why nintendo keeps pushing it. In their "tournament" in which you could only use the wiimote controls, I had to listen to them keep telling us about how intuitive and easy to use this control scheme was. How is hitting a trigger button not intended to be used when flipped sideways like that to do some as essentially as blocking intuitive? Or how is double tapping to run more intuitive then smashing the analog stick in a direction? Are these now advanced techniques, skills only to be used by overly competitive purists who insist on using controllers that afford them an adequate number of accessible buttons?! (Short hopping and dash-dashing much more reasonable "advanced techniques" are moved even further out of the reach of not just casual players but pretty much anyone through the wiimote.)

/edit #3 alts added

Click to expand...

All the costumes that I know of. I will update if you guys tell or show me ones I dont know. Regular costumes are not listed.

A question mark of course will mean incomplete or unknown if its complete.
--------------------

Mario - Fire Mario, Blue, brown/white, Wario, Green

Pikachu - Trainer Hat, Green Bandana, ?, Goggles

Ike - Marth Colors

Donkey Kong - Sasquatch, Red, Green, Blue, ?

Sonic - Blue shades (ring color changes), black shade

Yoshi - Blue, Red, Yellow, Turquoise, Pink

Peach - All Red dress, Daisy, Orange, ?

Samus - Phazon Suit, Fusion Suit, Off-gold, Gravity Suit, (rumored: all melee colors)

Link - Dark, Red, Blue, Purple, Green, Gold

Fox - Wolf-a-like, green, ?, ?

Metaknight - Dark, green, red, yellow, (pink rumored)

Diddy - Purple, Dixie (no hair), ?, ?

Pit - Red w/ white wings, black w/ black wings, blue w/ blue wings, green, ?

Bowser (shell)- Gold, black, brownish, white

---------------
VIDS OF COLORS:

Full Dark Link

Samus Gravity Suit

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Vortok said:

Mario
------
The majority of Mario's moves have stayed the same, near as I can tell. For those still in the dark, his dair is in fact the Mario Tornado. There was some question about mashing the button or holding it. I tried both, but neither did anything such as making him hover/go up/change his trajectory. Down B in midair just starts charging FLUDD. The knockback, when I hit with it (usually the far part, didn't hit someone close to me with it) was pretty minimal. So you won't be blasting people across the level with it, near as I can tell. I couldn't figure out how to charge it while shielding. I'm almost certain his fair is two hits, like we saw in the Nintendo World Video. He still has all his Melee costumes, that I could see. Overall, I'd say he's gotten an upgrade vs. Melee.

Diddy Kong
------------
Up B = Barrel recovery, of course. It is chargeable in midair. Down B throws bananas. Dunno if you can aim it, but when I tried it he just kinda tossed them wherever (such as up and behind himself while falling midair). Neutral B is, of course, the Peanut Gun which is chargeable. I may've been one an angle or something (which in and of itself would be weird for it to make a difference) but he seemed to shoot kinda high. Definately not horizontal like, say, Fox's lasers. Side B is kinda a leaping grab. First off, what we thought was his nair in videos is not. It cancels into that with B pressed again. I landed on Bowser with it, but he just kinda sat there for a bit and then fell off, so apparently you have to press something after that (too busy trying other characters to play Diddy again to learn more). His nair is a mid-air cartwheel, more or less. His fair is basically Mario’s bair. -- (lol, this is the [character] limit for the PS3)

Ike
---
He hits like a friggin' semi truck. As most know, Up B is basically Kirby Cutter. Neutral B is the charge up. Seems it can charge really long (Roy long). He stabs the sword into the ground, rather than slamming it like Marth/Roy. Side B is a chargeable dashing slash. Seems to have decent power, but definately less than neutral B. Down B is counter. Seems to have Marth's knockback length. Saw him counter out of the middle of Pit's side B combo. D Smash feels kinda like M/R's, but hits higher above the ground as well. F smash is basically an overhead blow. I remember up tilt is different, but don't remember exact animation. Dair and fair have decent power to them. Back throw is like Sheik/Ganon, with the Leg to kick them. In sudden death, it KO'd Zero Suit Samus (doesn't say much, lol).

Pit
---

Neutral B arrows are curvable more than once (curved it twice on Eldin Bridge at people on the other side, shooting across the gap - wasn't right at the edge), and they travel pretty fast. Up B = free flight (not jumps, just hold a direction to move there). Side B is a forward dash with him spinning his weapon to combo with it. Seems to act slightly different (less movement, I think) in the air, but I didn't see it much in midair. Down B has him crouch slightly and pull out a shield that nullified whatever attack I saw hit it. Dunno it's true usefulness. Up smash = slightly slower version of Link's Up smash (triple slice). Don't remember too many more specifics, though he felt pretty balanced overall. Various costumes include black, blue, green, red, and gold with matching wing colors.

Metaknight
------------

He's a friggin' beast, but he didn't seem overpowered. Neutral B tornado combos for great damage. You can tap B (dunno about hold) to move around and even gain height, though I was in "disabled" state after while I dropped two feet back to the platform. It's quite manueverable. Down B makes him vanish for a half second and then reappear (going down to the stage if midair, moreso than just fall momentum). Didn't hit anyone with it. Side B is that sword torpedo combo of doom. Can be curved up or down (if you start in midair). Good damage. Up B moves him up about Luigi Up B distance, and then he does a loop into a glide. Normal A moves are a mix of combo and strong hits (F smash knocks people pretty far). Holding neutral A makes him slash like crazy, has good priority, and hits in front and behind. It actually interrupted me when I tried to use Link's F smash on the back of a Metaknight doing the hold neutral A.

Fox
----
I wasn't a hardcore Fox player, but he didn't seem to be nerfed down to suckage level. Most of what I know has been posted by others, so I'll make this a bit more general. Someone asked if you could jump out of his side B - answer is no. Near as I could tell, you're truly in the disabled state after most characters major recovery moves (other than Sonic).

I'd also like to make a decent point regarding his shine. When I tried to jump cancel, it wouldn't work right away and had a delay before you could jump, like I posted earlier. Others at E for All discovered that you can jump-cancel if you hold B down. Stuff like that bodes well for those wanting more "skill" and deeper combat. If it's like this for one move (where a casual player would probably just use it on the ground, someone a bit more savvy would know to use it midair, and even more advanced players would know to hold B to jump cancel), what are the chances that the rest of the game will have similar nuances? Pretty good, I say.

Sonic
------
His dash is insanely fast. Probably the fastest dash speed Smash has seen so far. Neutral B is a homing spin dash. It'll rise into the air as you charge it, and then home in on someone (or just go a little bit forward). Up B is the super spring board. You can attack (normal or special) after it. You cannot jump after it. Down special in midair is the diagonal "falcon" kick. I didn't remember until too late to test if it gives you your jump back. Down special on the ground is a chargeable spin dash that you charge by pressing the special button a couple of times. It can change directions, and keeps going after you hit someone. Side B I didn't get the hang of, so I only did weak hits with it. Aerials are a mix of single hits and combo hits (like a lot of aerials combo hit in SSB64). D smash is a spin dash back and forth to either side. Alt costumes are different colored wrist bands. Black wrist bands just = dark blue Sonic, not black/shadow.

Peach
-------
Peach felt a little different, and a little nerfed, but still a good character overall. Her nair, fair, and bair still performed well, and the bair might even have increased power/knockback. Turnips are still very useful. Neutral B/Toad -seemed- to come out faster than it did in Melee. Didn't hit anyone with it. She still has her Daisy outfit, though it's not quite as obvious during play (very obvious at character select screen). Forgot the others, though I wanna say I saw a variation of the white/wedding dress.

Pikachu
--------
Spent most the match I played as him messing with Airdodge mechanics and crawling (think you can crawl backwards). His moves in general are the same. Only has four costumes again. Normal, trainer hat, green headband, and blue Pichu goggles.

Bowser
--------
Yes, the gold and black Bowser looks utterly pimp (it also caused me to forget his other colors). Near as I could tell, practically all of his A moves are the same attack (can't say about strengh dif... not exactly a Melee Bowser expert). His fair has a visible "slash" effect in front of it, and as reported his side B looks pretty sweet, and it's intelligent slightly as I did it facing the edge and he jumped back towards the level (instead of doing a powerbomb suicide). I didn't hit anyone with the flame breath, unfortunately. His down B seems to have a radial effect, as I landed on one of the side platforms on Battlefield, and a character standing below the platform got hit and knocked off the stage. He seems to have better range overall, and just feels "larger" as a character. I think I tested all his ground normal attacks, and the animations were roughly the same. Definately feels more playable than he did in Melee.

Link
----
Like Gold 'n Black Bowser, Dark Link looks like teh leet pwnzorz. Overall, Link isn't changed too much. His Up B is chargeable on the ground, but not in the Air. I think it may've lost some of it's initial KO power (much like normal smashes vs. chargeable smashes), but it still has pretty decent knockback. Seems more focused on the initial hit, so may be even easier to punish this time around. Boomerang is a solid hit with mild knockback if it hits directly. Didn't notice much from the whirlwind. Bombs and arrows are there, but I didn't use them very much (as half of the two matches I played as him was testing L cancel). His forward smash swipes a larger area in front of him, instead of the narrower slices he did in Melee.

Donkey Kong
--------------
Like Bowser, he feels "larger" overall and looked like he had slightly better range. Down B still does nothing midair. If doesn't combo on the ground unless it has a weird sweetspot (pretty sure the Metaknight we saw combo'd in a vid was crouch cancelling) Side B looks to act the same in midair, as far as stopping/slowing your movement. F-throw will stick up a character so that you can carry them with you. Seemed improved overall.

Yoshi
------
Unless you count down B (or there's some special way, akin to Fox's shine), Yoshi cannot double jump cancel anymore. The boost on his Up B eggthrow is indeed small (though there's vid that shows a Yoshi doing three in one jump from the ground) but it remains to be seen how much it'll help with recovery. Fair and dair look the same.

Spent most of match with his Final Smash (got two, as I was playing vs. CPU), so not much more on his attacks.

Samus
-------
If you've watched the Gamespot video, you know most of what there is to know about the basics of Samus. I actually didn't see/play too much if Samus. D-smash still has excellent power.

Zero Suit Samus
-------------------
Saw even less of her, though I did see an alt color with what looked like a black (instead of blue) suit. Also has great range with her whip.

Final Smashes
-------------------
Some (Pit, at the very least) if not all characters are invulnerable during their Final Smash.

ZSS, Peach, Link, Mario - Didn't witness their FS (saw first part of Mario's at the end of a match) so can't comment.

Ike - Close range. If it hits, he and his victim basically go above the center of the stage and Ike goes all omnislash. Looks awesome.

Meta - Close range. Single strong hit. It is NOT a one-hit KO as I saw someone survive. Very strong, though.

Pit - Little punks he summons are annoying and came at you kinda fast. Doesn't last long, but has the potential to do some real harm.

Sonic - The knockback isn't nearly as insane as it first looked in the videos, but it's still decently powerful. Hard to control from what I saw (didn't use it myself).

Pika - Does good damage. Insanely hard to control as even a twitch'll send him half a stage length's away.

Fox - It can hover above the abyss, so there won't be driving off and suiciding that easily. Cannon is good damage.

Bowser - Quite powerful, actually. It's almost impossible to stun him out of a move. At most, you can slow him down. Sounds cliche, but it's true. Watched him do a Fsmash on two characters, while another was beating on him from behind. The fsmash animation slowed/paused midway as he got hit, but it went all the way through (and owned those that it hit).

Yoshi - The flying felt sluggish, but prolly because I'm not used to it. I was only able to shoot left and right. Hits did around 18% or so. And no, for Super Mario World theorists, I couldn't find any type of increased ground pound.

Diddy - I accidentally found a good part of his Final Smash. Had trouble controlling (going up) with it, and the hits didn't seem to do that much damage. Actually coming in contact with characters, though (he IS wearing rockets) did considerable damage and knockback (unsure, might've KO'd someone that was below 80% from running into them).

DK - Doesn't seem to be able to move, and has limited range from what I could see. It's a rythmic button pressing based FS, though. No idea if it just increases the power of each hit, or if it'll increase the power/range/something else of the FS the more times you get the timing right. Can't write off this as sucky quite yet.

Samus - It's **** powerful. 'Nuff said.

Also, on Final Smashes. You can still move around a bit (I believe in slow-mo as it's hard to tell when it's offscreen) while a Final Smash is starting, so you do have a brief chance to get the hell outta the way.

I've seen some characters (Sonic, at the very least) activate a FS in midair. Not 100% sure but I might've seen someone else activate it midair as well.

Stages
-------
Not a ton here, as I focused more on the characters.

Norfair - Lava flow, near as I can remember, covers three of the five platforms (whether it's from the side or bottom). I remember spawning inside the lava flow (was smart enough to wait for it to go away). It's a tad slower, so it's not quite as "omg where'd that lava come from" that Brinstar sometimes pulled on us in the past.

Delfino - Didn't play it much, but it was very enjoyable with how often it changed. The section with the water isn't death pits. When I was Fox, I basically floated in the water and was able to jump back up to the stage.

Skyworld - Stage goes between extra solid (non-passthroughable floors) to clouds that are almost too easy to pass through. Makes for interesting matches.

Items
------
Assist Trophies

Knuckle Joe - This guys *****. He beat the hell outta me as Pit for awhile, before I managed to escape. But then he found me again, pummeled me some more, and then KO'd me. ?

Little Mac - Stays out for quite awhile, though he didn't have anyone to attack for part of it (didn't charge off the side of the stage right away, though).

Metroid - Latches onto you and does damage. You can shake loose, like you can shake loose of a grab... but it'll just come after you again a few seconds later. Just hope that it's 4-man and there's other targets nearby. Doesn't mover super fast, though.


Poke Balls

Gardevoir - Either coming in contact, or hitting Gardevoir causes knockback. One person got knocked about a stage length's away (pretty sure it wasn't the Poke Ball hitting from the other side), so it's not exactly weak. Almost like a walking, souped up Wobbuffet. Dunno what else Gardevoir does.

Electrode - He's back.

Chikorita - Also back in Poke Ball form.


General Items

Bob-bomb - He's back and basically the same.

Smart Bomb - Miniature bullet bill from Peach's Castle, basically.

Capsules - I do not recall seeing one exploding capsule/barrel/crate.

Spicy Curry - Shoots three constant fireballs in front of you (think kinda like Kirby's rapid fire punch animation, but the area it covers is larger than an average character. The fire, combined with you actually attacking, can rack up damage VERY quickly. I almost never saw it, because the actual item is so small and easy to miss.

Homerun bat - Non-smash attacks seem to be a bit weak. Smash attack almost seems like it takes even longer to come out.

Fireworks launcher - A little hard to aim when you first pick it up (seemed to have an up and down angling to it). If I remember correctly, you can't double jump while holding it.


and finally, C-stick will do aerials even if you're holding an item.

Click to expand...

Got here late today. played like 3 matches but two of them was at the tourney cause I wanted the T-shirt.

The toruney is 16 players play on 4 wiis (4 players per wii) and then the winner of each play each other. You can only play with 4 players if you wait in line for the tourney. Otherwise the 5 wiis outside are for 1vs 1 play.

This was the first time I really played with 4 players and Ike is a crowd KILLER (played yesterday but colleagues but I was trying stuff out for notes and died a lot). I used him because I wanted to win the tourney, and I did. Got so many KOs with that guy in the tourney. First off, his Forward + B, which can be charged, will just fly into the crowd at a fast speed and do explosive damage (at least as good as a falcon punch) and knocks them up high. Silly players...don't not watch what Ike is doing from afar. And this move is also what you'll be using for recovery when you're knocked from afar. Just charge it a bit after your double jump and unleash it when you want. Covers good ground. And god he just wields so much power with his attacks. His Up+A smash he swings an arc from the front to back and it lanches people. 1 on 1 is a diff story and is dependant per player. But yeah, after playing four players with Ike I got a ton of respect for him.

Other tidbits:

Meta-Knight's Final smash does 50% damage and it does not kill if the guy is at 0% when you use it. Screen turns black and he does one slash. That's it.

Peach has Daisy colors, White, Red, and I think purple and green.

Yoshi's Up+B is still an egg attack.

I also used Peach but didn't get to hit with her down+A smash like you wanted to know about. She feels the same though. I'm going to try her again.

Gotta do umbrella chronicles impressions. Will play later.

Also, not everyone will be able to play with Zero Suit Samus because: 1. you have to get smash ball. and 2. time limit is only 2 mins per game. So I may not be able to get impressions of her in. I've seen her but people also die afterwards or time runs out, so it's a bit rare to see her.

Click to expand...

All the costumes that I know of. I will update if you guys tell or show me ones I dont know. Regular costumes are not listed.

A question mark of course will mean incomplete or unknown if its complete.
--------------------

Mario - Fire Mario, Blue, brown/white, Wario, Green

Pikachu - Trainer Hat, Green Bandana, ?, Goggles

Ike - Marth Colors

Donkey Kong - Sasquatch, Red, Green, Blue, ?

Sonic - Blue shades (ring color changes), rumored black shade

Yoshi - Blue, Red, Yellow, Turquoise, Pink

Peach - All Red dress, Daisy, ?, ?

Samus - Phazon Suit, Fusion Suit, Off-gold, Gravity Suit, (rumored: all melee colors)

Link - Dark, Red, Blue, Purple, Green, Gold

Fox - Wolf-a-like, green, ?, ?

Metaknight - Dark, green, red, yellow, (pink rumored)

Diddy - Purple, Dixie (no hair), ?, ?

Pit (rumored colors) - Red w/ white wings, black w/ black wings, blue w/ blue wings, green, ?

Bowser (shell)- Gold, black, brownish, white

---------------
VIDS OF COLORS:

Full Dark Link

Samus Gravity Suit

Click to expand...

HugS said:

Like most people who have been playing it, it's a mix. As of right now I feel it's not as good as melee. I feel that it is not as balanced as melee. I feel that nintendo "Accidentally" made melee amazingly deep and balanced.

But then I start thinking that I've only played a demo, with endless items, on crappy controllers. And I know absolutely nothing about how to do anything. I also realize that when melee first came out, i had the same feelings. "Throws don't kill? this is ridiculous. My back air is so weak now. Why is the dair so slow. They screwed up this game". It took me a while to realize how balanced it was. Throws shouldn't kill. There are things called sweetspots now. And I just have to time my dair.

So perhaps the things I believe have no counter are just tactics that will be countered the moment we are allowed to play the game for more than a combined total of 40 minutes. And things that I feel are way too nerfed will be replaced by other excellent abilities. But there are some things that undoubtedly need to be fixed. Peach's dsmash SHOULD kill me in sudden death at 320 percent, you should be able to press down on a ledge to drop, etc, etc.

So that's my opinion so far.

Click to expand...

HugS said:

Edge dropping is in, but I had to press back to do it, not down. Maybe it's a glitch, maybe i just screwed up, I'm not sure.

Also, what makes this exciting is that I really have no idea what new things we are gonna come up with. Ive seen moves auto cancel and have seen those very same moves lag. There has to be an explanation why, and we'll probably figure out how to make it consistent. I've seen people waveland...but yet people say wavedashing can't be done? I guarantee someone will find a way to do this at will.

Or how about the time when we thought that you had to short hop to edgehog. I accidentally ran off the ledge, hit back, and edgehogged immediately. Things like that amaze me. There's so much to learn.

Btw, some noobs are ****** at this game. Because players like me are trying to play as advanced as possible, and these guys are just running wild with any move at their disposal. It's pretty funny...they can have their moment for now. Some guy actually yelled out "Where's your wavedash now" as he was winning a match on a tv. What a douchebag. We'll find a replacement for wavedashing, and I'll find him online to welcome him to competitive Brawl.

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lukintosh said:

What do you mean by "only good thing is the end" and "Chuck Norris grade rating"(Cos' the Internet can be a very confusing place)

Is this the correct place to post? I apologize if it isnt.

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nealdt said:

Metaknight is scary but not godlike. I beat the top MK player there in our mini tournament.

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FierceDeityWolf said:

I noticed that Ike has an alt. costume of Marth, and it seems Bonsly is a Pokeball Pokemon. Also, there's a new swimming technique. So now water will play a more important part.

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