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Hitbox Renewal: A Look Into the Yoyo Glitch and the Black Hole Glitch

Simna ibn Sind

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Ok ok, so we know that a single hitbox can only hit any given target one time(if you dair someone with Captain Falcon, that same dair can't hit them again. If you want to hit them with another dair, you have to use dair over again). There is a strange attribute of hitboxes though: If a single hitbox hits 13 different targets then it may go back and hit the first one again and continue hitting the targets in the same order(so if an attack hits someone then hits 12 other targets, it may go back and hit that someone once again).

The only problem is where are you going to find an attack that has a hitbox that lasts long enough to hit TWELVE targets? Easy answer to this is the Yoyo Glitch. The jacket techniques(toy, star, spike, thunder) from the Yoyo Glitch attach a single hitbox to the user's(Ness') body and leaves it there as long as Ness doesn't use another attack and as long as Ness doesn't die. With this, hitbox renewal can be done in stages like Green Greens, Mushroom Kingdom I, and Yoshi's Island(with 4 players). Simply attach a yoyo glitch jacket, hit a target(by running into it), then run into 12 other targets(whether they be items, blocks, bricks, or other players) and go back to your original target.

Another situation in which hitbox renewal takes place is the Black Hole Glitch. In the black hole glitch, hitbox renewal occurs continuously during the entire process and life of the glitch. Attacks clashing with each other count as a hit towards hitbox renewal for each of the attacks, but attacks don't count as targets themselves, so attacks can potentially clash more than once. Most attacks in the game, however, were made to stop when clashed with another attack or run through the other attack(stopping the other attack). So, in order to achieve hitbox renewal through clashing, we need long-lasting attacks that have enough movement freedom to continuously clash, Living projecitles(projectiles with an HP hitbox-shell) such as PK Fire and Needle Storm, while long-lasting, don't have the freedom of movement to achieve hitbox renewal(and because their long life comes from a hitbox-shell that's duration is controlled by how much damage it takes, hitbox renewal would have to occur with these attacks VERY rapidly).

This means we need a long-lasting attack, with freedom of movement, and one that does not use a HP hitbox-shell. We also need to make sure that this attack will not be destroyed upon clashing. There is an attack like this; a unique anomaly within melee: Turnips.

Turnips are not only long lasting, but they are not destroyed when they clash and, with the exception of stitch-faced turnips, they are weak enough to not destroy and pass through what they are clashing with. They also have great freedom of movement that is not set on a strict, single path. Another property of Turnips along with any other hitbox is that their life or duration is renewed along with the hitbox when hitbox renewal occurs. It is that quality that allows the black hole glitch to work using turnips. This is what happens during a black hole glitch:

1. A rapid stream of weak superscope shots are maintained between 2 reflectors.
(these shots do not clash with each other, their duration is renewed by the reflectors. This is not hitbox-renewal, but another topic entirely^_^)

2. A Turnip is thrown into the stream. The rapid stream of shots clash with the turnip but neither the shots nor the turnip are destroyed. Meanwhile, the stream is holding the turnips still, not allowing it to move. At this point, we have already achieved hitbox renewal(the rapid stream of shots are renewing the turnips...this is why it doesn't vanish after staying in the stream for too long), but this isn't the entire glitch.

3. After the first turnip, at least 11 more turnips must be thrown into the first(although more can be used...up to 15 I believe). At this point you have 12 hitboxes trapped and clashing with each other which allows for a 13th hitbox, one of the weak charge shots, to gain hitbox renewal and live independant of the 2 reflectors. This shot's hitbox is duplicated, leaving one hitbox trapped within the tunips while the other passes through and continues streaming between the reflectors. This happens with all of the shots in the stream, but because the charge shots will not clash with each other and each one deals less that 1% damage due to attack stagnation(yes, attack stagnation occurs in items), the countless number of superscope shots hitboxes that get trapped inside the turnips do make the black hole any larger no matter how many are added.

4. We now have a complete Black Hole Glitch that is maintained through hitbox renewal. The 12+ turnips and superscope shots are constantly and rapidly renewing each other while holding each other in place at the same time. This is also why we are able to add other attacks into the Black Hole Glitch once it is completely formed. Attacks such as PK Fire and Fox Illusion will within the black hole glitch with their animations still visible because of hitbox renewal. Some characters can even be trapped with the black hole glitch in attacking animations because the hitbox on their attack is being constantly renewed and the black hole is holding them in place.

Here is a video demostrating hitbox renewal with the Yoyo Glitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX3GCaU9yA

Here is a video showing a black hole glitch with Mario stuck inside with his upB being renewed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTl1EMuawjg

Using action replay, black holes can be made using some other attacks. Here is a video showing a PK Fire black hole glitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rcyaw60OIU

Some things to consider:
-What attacks other than the Yoyo Glitch might be used for hitbox renewal without the Black Hole Glitch?
-Could a Black Hole Glitch be performed using Mr. Saturns?
 

ender

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Logic dictates that simna is correct.
 

kenny10

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Wow. That's pretty smart. I always thought about the Black Hole glitch as just something that really hurts and freezes you. I already knew the YYG thing but I didn't know why or try to figure it out. Thanks for taking the time for doing something so that I don't have to Simna. :bigthumbu Your still my favorite Ness player.
 

Smo

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That's quite intresting... but how does it apply to anyone's game? I mean really, that's alll well and good... but blackhole glitch and yoyo glitch aren't exactly common occuracnes in matches...
 

Simna ibn Sind

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SIND#745
That's quite intresting... but how does it apply to anyone's game? I mean really, that's alll well and good... but blackhole glitch and yoyo glitch aren't exactly common occuracnes in matches...
That's true. The Black Hole Glitch is completely unusable in a match situation and for the Yoyo Glitch...well let's just say out of all the people who play melee few of them play Ness, and out of those who do few of them can do the Yoyo Glitch, and out of those who can even fewer can use it well enough to use in a match.

The main reason for this post was to inform and get people THINKING. That part at the end with things I asked people to consider was kind of an attempt to push them in the right direction. It was to get them to start discussing the topic with other people on how all of this info can be used to help the game of some character(s).

I can't think of a way myself, but if I had all the answers I wouldn't need the internet.^_^ This is to start discussion on the topic and to get people to go outside the theoretical and experiment with it themselves.
 

Youkai Master

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Wow this was so well written, Simna is awesome.

I love when new things get discovered even after so long, let's see what else can be gotten out of this...
 

Pink Reaper

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I REFUSE TO LOSE TO GAMEFAQS.

also, i was doing the Black Hole Glitch yesterday and i got a beam sword with peach and it got stuck in the Black Hole, as did the super scope that i had used. Dont think either is particularly interesting/useful, but i thought i would throw it out there
 

Levitas

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Just as clarification, what produces the toy jacket? I've never heard that term.

I'm tempted to try to use Mr. Saturns now to see if it works...
 

Taymond

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Definitely an interesting post. Since no one else seems to be speaking up with questions or comments, I'll offer the only questions I could come up with.

Is hitbox renewal then responsible for the many-green-shells, mario-tornado trick from the 64 smash? Was the reason everything got stuck and destroyed a player because there were 12 green shells, thus offering mario the ability to hit the opponent, 12 shells, and the opponent again before said character could be thrown away?

Is the reason, then, that a player can bounce on Mewtwo's charging neutral B, being repeatedly hit, because the hitbox is constantly being renewed?
 

Simna ibn Sind

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SIND#745
yeah

as for the smash64 thing...i dont know. Smash 64 may have a very different physics system than melee

but yeah some attacks can hit targets more than once because they are made to have hitboxes that are recreated after hitting something. Some attacks that do this are: Link's dair, red shell, Mewtwo's B charge, and iirc IC's uair(altho i might be wrong on that last one)
 

Phelix08

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Two things worth pointing out...
1.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjFVjGpWcEE&feature=related
It officially works with red shells, but not well
2.) I tried to make a black hole with mr saturns but had little luck. It might have been because it's really hard to make a black hole in training mode and I was doing it by my self, but it didn't look like the problem was with me. Basically, the Mr. Saturns just flew out after the first one got stuck in the super scope shots. I'll try to post a video of it if you guys want.
 

Speedsk8er

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So if Ganondorf stomped two Sheiks' full-charged needle-storms, would he be able to hit the same target twice?


Just a thought.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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SIND#745
So if Ganondorf stomped two Sheiks' full-charged needle-storms, would he be able to hit the same target twice?


Just a thought.
in theory yeah, but im pretty sure that its impossible to do even with hitstun-lag taken into consideration...

even if the 2 sheiks timed their two needle storms exaclty the right amount of frames apart so the space between each needle was reduced as much as possible the frame window for this is very small and it would require perfect spacing

maybe possible thru debug mode
 

AAP

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Good post btw... but i was just wondering about this....


....the Yoyo Glitch attach a single hitbox to the user's(Ness') body and leaves it there as long as Ness doesn't use another attack and as long as Ness doesn't die.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1fHazzXY8&NR=1

in the video above the ness does a pk flash and yet the hitbox remains attached...does it only leave with A attacks?
 

Yoshistar64

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I REFUSE TO LOSE TO GAMEFAQS.

also, i was doing the Black Hole Glitch yesterday and i got a beam sword with peach and it got stuck in the Black Hole, as did the super scope that i had used. Dont think either is particularly interesting/useful, but i thought i would throw it out there
I think when you throw items in there, they disappear in a minute... I tried that before... oh wait! Does that mean you CAN'T throw Mr. Saturns in there?

EDIT: Oh never mind. I just realized that Mr Saturn has the same hitbox renewal as that of the turnip. That was a good read.
 

Phelix08

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I think when you throw items in there, they disappear in a minute... I tried that before... oh wait! Does that mean you CAN'T throw Mr. Saturns in there?

EDIT: Oh never mind. I just realized that Mr Saturn has the same hitbox renewal as that of the turnip. That was a good read.
When I tried it the Mr Saturns did disappear after a little while, but that could be because I wasn't able to get anything else in there, I don't know if the super scope shots alone are enough keep it around.
 

Phelix08

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Yes, but it might count it as a completely different object every time Sheik and Zelda transform. As in, it makes a new thing every time, not just switch between the two.

I don't know if that really made sense to anyone except me..
 
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