Approaching with Marth

I'm making this thread because I was inspired by Phanna's approaching with Samus thread. I'm also doing this because I noticed that alot of people have trouble with approaching with Marth. They usually limit themselves to one or two ways of approaching and that's all. I thought that making a thread for the different ways of approaching would be a good way to get some ideas out there and start a little discussion. If nothing else it will give people new ideas and improve their game.

The fact of the matter is that Marth does have quite a few methods of approaching his enemy. I will list these different methods and I will also add any other methods that others post to the list.

1) Dash JC Grab

A basic tactic, but still effective. To do it just dash then time your jump with your grab. The most common way to accomplish this is to hit up on the analog stick and at the same time hit the Z button. Another way of doing this is to use the X or Y button instead of hitting up on the analog stick. Marth will run and do a standing grab as he slides across the stage. Marth has a solid grab game and awesome grab range. This can be done out of a dash dance or a wavedash. This would be for mindgames or to wait for an opening and then strike.

If your opponent spot dodges: You can do several things in this situation. You can grab again to catch them as they come out of thier spot dodge. You can buffer a roll, so that you roll away as soon as your grab ends. Do this by holding the L button and left or right on the C-stick. You could buffer a spot dodge in the same way. You can dash away or dash through them and then JC grab. Those are usually your best options, but not the only ones you have. You could also jump back and come down with a shuffled aerial. You could also Crouch Cancel and then grab or attack. Most people usually try to grab after a spot dodge though so the first 4 choices are the most reliable IMO.

2) Dash Attack

Most Marth's avoid this and with good reason. It's easy to see coming and gets predictable. Still it is useful for starting combos. If it's CCed then there isn't much you can do to avoid thier punishing you. Same thing if it's spot dodged. If it's shielded then you can spot dodge to avoid getting punished. You could also roll away. You may be able to dash away and then retaliate if you're fast enough.

3) Pivot F-smash

Pivoting is a difficult technique to master, but the benefits are great. This allows the user to suddenly bust out an attack while dash dancing. For a deeper explanation check out this link here.
This is an awesome surprise attack. Marth is the best at pivotting due to the long opening stride of his dash and his great range. The Pivot f-smash abuses these traits.

4) Dash Cancelled D-tilt

I love this technique. This has pretty much replaced dash attacking with my Marth. This technique is so versatile and Marth has alot of responses whether the attack hits or not. To do this technique dash and then while dashing, hold down and hit A. Don't hit A the same time you hit down, because you will get a d-smash of you do. Marth has IASA frames on his d-tilt as soon as he pulls the sword back. Meaning he can interrupt the recovery time of the attack with another action at that time. This opens up alot of possibilities. After a d-tilt Marth can roll, spot dodge, use any attack, shield, etc. Whatever he wants. I'll discuss the different options he has depending on his opponents response to this attack.


If they shield it- Marth has some tricks up his sleeve in this situtation depending on his spacing. He can roll or spot dodge if you want to be defensive. He can also shield. To shield just tilt the analog stick slightly forward and then hit L or R to shield. This is good if they were going to try a JC aerial. You will shield it and then you can get a shield grab. If your spacing is good and close to the tip of his sword then he can dash back and then dash back in with a grab. You could also just dash back and then respond accordingly to whatever action your opponent takes. If they jump then chase them with Fairs. If they dash attack then shield grab, etc. Be weary of dashing from Marth and Shiek as they both have good grab range and may grab you out of your dash if your spacing isn't good enough. Be sure to mix up what you do to keep them on thier toes. You could also d-tilt again or do a shuffled fair or nair if you have good spacing. But doing another d-tilt is risky against Marth or Shiek. They can grab you out of it, if they expect it or do a shield grab. Another nasty little trick is to dash back and do a pivot f-smash. This will completely demolish a shield grabber. If thier percentage was high then they will probably lose a stock. If not then just edge guard until death. He can also just grab. This will catch people off guard if they expected you to dash away.

If they spot dodge- Marth has the same options available to him in this situation as he does if his opponent shields.

If it hits- Marth should usually go for a quick grab. Just dash in and grab or if they didn't go far tilt the analog stick slightly forward and grab. Unless they expected it, Marth will get the grab. The most your opponent can really do is try to roll, spot dodge, or jump away. If they do those just watch them and react accordingly. Space animals can shine, but Marth's grab will usually catch them if they try.

If it's CCed- Roll away or try to spot dodge.

5) Shuffled Fair

His most used and probably his most reliable approach. Like all of Marth's approaches he has options whether it hits or not. A trick he can do with this is to DI back as he comes down with it. This will help him keep his spacing near the tip of the sword. Something else he can do that may seem wierd at first, but actually does work is to do nothing after a well spaced shuffled fair. Most people are so used to shield grabbing Marths that they will automatically try to grab him, even though he is clearly not in range. When they miss thier grab punish them. You can also vary the timing of when you do the fair. This will keep your opponent guessing and you may catch them off guard. Marth has all the same options he has with his d-tilt concerning what he can do if his opponent shields, rolls, spot dodges etc. If he is close to his opponent then he can dash through them after doing SHHFL fair on thier shield and then dash back in with a grab. Dashing through them will allow him to avoid the shield grab and then respond with a grab himself. Generally if you are fighting Marth or Shiek then you should dash through them. They both have good grab range and dashing back will get you grabbed usually. Also be careful when dashing through Ganon or CF. Thier grabs start behind them, so you will probably be grabbed if you dash through them. Although your opponent can roll away or JC Bair to hit you if you dash through them, this tactic happens quite fast so they won't be able to respond fast enough unless they expect it.

If it hits- Marth can grab, u-tilt, d-tilt or go for a Ken combo. It all depends on his opponents percentage and thier choice of character.

If it's CCed- Roll away or try to spot dodge.

6) Shuffled Nair

I like this move alot. I should use it more. It makes Marth's approach alot more aggressive. It looks more laggy then his fair, but upon inspection of Marth's frame data on SuperDoodleMan's web page it can be seen that they both only have 7 frames of lag when l-cancelled. Hmmm. Anyway this move has more knockback then his fair, and knocks down on hit at higher percents, so you'll have to tech chase to follow up. But Marth is awesome at tech chasing, so that's ok. Marth's options after this move are the same as his d-tilt. Although I usually roll away. He can also DI back for spacing with this move. It looks better with this move and it reminds me of Captain Falcon. He can also attack through opponents with this and land behind them. Good for mindgames.

7) Short Hop Double Aerials

Another staple Marth approach. The second aerial can be interrupted with a shield grab, but good spacing will solve that problem. The second aerial will usually be a fair, but can also be a Uair even a Dair. Marth doesn't have to do another aerial after the first. He can jump or Waveland as well. Jumping is a good way to avoid being punished by CCers. Then he can come down with a Dair then combo from there. If this hits he can combo or grab depending on the percentage of his opponent. Has the same options as his other aerials if this approach is shielded.

8) Auto Cancel Nair

The credit goes to Cactuar for this method. A nair can automatically be cancelled if you land after the second sword slash. To do a short hop auto cancel nair, just short hop then nair ASAP, then fast fall after the second slash comes out. If done correctly it will look like Marth just landed from a normal jump, instead of landing from an attack. The lag from an auto cancelled nair is only 4 frames. This adds more mindgames to the mix, and gives Marth some more tricks. According to Cactuar the shield stun of the nair combined with the reduced lag will give Marth enough time to do an action when he touches the ground before his opponent. Obviously hitting his opponent's shield with the tip of his sword, when doing the nair will produce more shield stun then if he didn't hit with the tip. Cactuar stated that Marth can grab his opponent before they can shield grab him or do an u-tilt to stuff thier shield grab attempt. I personally would do an u-tilt because it comes out faster and I would want to play it safe. Marth has the same options as his shuffled nair if this is shielded.



So what does everyone think? If you have more to add let me know and I'll add it if I think it's a solid method of approach. So, everyone please comment and discuss.

Emblem Lord said:

1) Dash JC Grab

A basic tactic, but still effective. To do it just dash then time your jump with your grab. The most common way to accomplish this is to hit up on the analog stick and at the same time hit the Z button. Marth will run and do a standing grab as he slides across the stage.. Marth has a solid grab game and awesome grab range. This can be done out of a dash dance or a wavedash. This would be for mindgames or to wait for an opening and then strike.

If your opponent spot dodges: You can do several things in this situation. You can grab again to catch them as they come out of thier spot dodge. You can buffer a roll, so that you roll away as soon as your grab ends. Do this by holding the L button and left or right on the C-stick. You could buffer a post dodge in the same way. You can dash away or dash through them and then JC grab. Those are usually your best options, but not the only ones you have. You could also jump back and come down with a shuffled aerial. You could also Crouch Cancel and then grab or attack. Most people usually try to grab aftera spot dodge though so the first 4 choices are the most reliable IMO.

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Good thread. A few things:

- I find it easier to JC grab by pressing X and then Z. The only time I use up on the control stick is with fox when performing a JC Usmash. I'm 100% consistent with X + Z, but imperfect with up joy + Z.

- If you think the opponent will spot dodge, I find it safer to cancel a dash with L or R to shield. Then you just wait for their spot dodge to finish and grab them. This is actually harder to pull off correctly than you'd think, because you need to space yourself such that the opponent can't grab you if they choose not to spot dodge; marth slides slightly forward after L/R is pressed.

lol. I'm not done with this. I meant to hit preview post, but hit the post button instead. Don't comment yet.

Edit: Now I'm done. Feel free to comment now.

*thumbs up*

Emblem lord, I thought the idea for a thread like this is great and is very useful. A matchup guide would be nice....Although I lost respect for after reading your signature, you'll still up there.

thebluedeath1000 said:

Although I lost respect for after reading your signature, you'll still up there.

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Mission accomplished!

^_^

I found this to be very helpful; I almost forgot about approaching with DTilt - -;;. Great post; it's good to have an in-depth post in a character-specific section of the forum. Sticky, B-Will?

By the way, would you consider dashing past a spotdodging / shielding opponent then FSmashing them in the back a mindgame or an approach?

More of a mindgame. But dashing past them would be an approach. Still I wouldn't post it because he is very limited in what he can do after dashing past someone and it gets predictable. Not to mention it's extremely risky. I would rather post more reliable ways of approaching. Although that is definitely something that can be effective if it isn't over used.

this is probably one of the more useful topics in the marth forum, it seems that marth specific is dying, but o well.

if there would be anything i would say that would need to be changed or should just be put as situational is approaching with a perfectly spaced fair following with a utilt. its not always a good idea to utilt after it, D-tilt is a much better follow up especially against sheik/samus/falcon.

Well I said if the fair hits then Marth's follow up will need to be adjusted according to his opponent and thier percentage.


I don't think I put that Marth should always u-tilt after a perfectly spaced fair though.

And yes the Marth forum is pretty much dead when it comes to intelligent discussion about his gameplay.

yeah thats true. if it does hit then its a great follow up as long as their DI is somewhat towards you so the range of the Utilt can hit them, but yes.

a good idea for the spaced fair would be to follow up with a dtilt if the person is sheilding, especially sheik and samus because with proper range all they can do is sit there and stay in the sheild, if they choose to roll and the marth reads it properly you can grab them, or if they go into the air you've basically forced them into what you wanted them to do therefore creating a mindgame.

one thing though, the above shouldn't be done repeatedly obviously rather than going for the dtilt sometimes it would be better to approach with a grab because they will start to stay in their sheild more due to the properly spaced fair to dtilt limiting their options. basically common sense your punishing them for mindgaming them to stay in their sheilds.

I would almost never d-tilt after a shielded fair against Marth or Shiek. Thier grab range is too long. They can grab Marth right out of his d-tilt. It happens alot. Marth streches his hand out with his sword so they can grab his hand just as the sword would have hit them.

Against other characters it is more viable.

emblem lord i have to disagree, with a dtilt after a spaced fair the space inbetween marth and sheik is too far for the sheik to sheildgrab, ask husband, he will tell you exactly the same because he's the one who told me.

don't get me wrong i'm not saying your wrong or saying husband is right, but i do this almost everytime i play my friends sheik and 1 out of 5 times i'd say he grabs me, and idk if thats by luck or by my spacing not being good enough.

Marths hand closes that distance and lets her net the grab. It has happened to me alot, but ok.

Like I said I'm only weary of doing it against Shiek and Marth. Against everyone else is fine.

Ultimately the goal is to force your opponent to guess between Marth doing a grab, an attack, a pivot grab or just waiting for them to do an action so he can punish it. Basically just to get them afraid to do something so he can just get free grabs after shielded attacks, because they won't know what to expect.

If he mixes it up and plays a good guessing game he can stay in control when they are on defense.

I don't mean to argue with you emblem lord at all i'm just saying what i've been i guess told and taught and i've practiced and to be honest your more than likely right, there are better choices you never want to limit yourself to one thing, obviously leads you to being predictable and if it happened everytime like i said husband told me the sheik/marth would eventually find a way around it.

again, sorry i didn't mean to start a disagreement i agree with you now moreso.

lol. I like disagreements because they are a way to spark good discussion. I'm just going by what I know man. That's all. Just trying to do my part for the Marth community.

I have no problem with you JBM. I never did.

i like how this thread is between me and Emblem lord lol...

i just try to play it safe when it comes to the boards because some people get frustrated and feel that someone is calling them stupid or something and start to get angry, i just like to make sure disagreements aren't getting out of hand. anyways, it seems out of almost all the characters marth's hardest approaches for me at least would be sheik and falcon, do you have any suggestions for a camping dash dancing falcon?

Nevermind, that advice is too good.

Anyone that let's Marth camp should be smacked.

He can't camp for ****. Why? No projectile. So if someone is letting Marth camp it better be because they have no projectile.

If Falcon is dash dancing I usually just dash into a d-tilt. Most Falcons are so busy dash dancing that they can't react in time to stop it. From there I just grab then up throw tech chase up throw tech chase up throw. Repeat this until I can u-tilt to combo to f-smash then edge guard.

Anyway, I lag bait with nairs alot. Or at least I used too. Like I said it looks like nair has more lag then a fair, but the frame data says the lag is equal.

Marth has ways around getting shield grabbed after shuffled aeriels. That was actually a big part of my approach guide. >_>

yo tis ting is insane madd props goz to me main man emblem lowd

RCD said:

yo tis ting is insane madd props goz to me main man emblem lowd

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yes mad skiddo, btw i love the word choice

Question for Emblem Lord or JBM falcon 08 . When you are approaching with the dtilt, should you try to sweepspot it or just make sure your spacing is good so you don't get grabbed easily? I was thinking that it just depends on the type of character (heavy/floaty). If you have already answered this I apologize in advance.

As long as you use Marth's IASA frames on the d-tilt you won't get grabbed no matter what your spacing is. But if you are fearful, then you can space the d-tilt so it hits at the tip of the sword. If you don't want to get grabbed when the spacing is closer then just roll, spot dodge, dash away, or dash through your opponent as soon as Marth pulls his sword back.

Autocancel nair has less lag than an l-cancelled fair by 3 frames. (4 frames landing lag on ACNair, 7 on LCFair)

So Marth would just use the nair and not fast fall? Or would he fast fall as soon as the attack animation ends?

I'm trying to think how could use this as an approach. Since he has to stay in the air longer for the autocancel, it also means he's more vulnerable right? But if he spaces it out and only hits the tip of his opponents shield then it has the same applications as his shuffled nair, correct?

I just want to hammer out all the details before I decide to add it to the list. If Marth wasn't in the air as long he could get an almost garuanteed u-tilt after this if they tried to grab, because the lag is alot less. But the extra frames that he is in the air negate the fact that he has less lag IMO.

What do you think Cactuar?

autocancel nair is after the 2nd swing right

If you do the nair immediately after jumping, it doesn't matter if you ff or not, you can't land before the attack gets to the point where it will autocancel. So just doing a nair asap upon leaving the ground will give you an auto-autocancel nair.

Hmmm. But it's still slower then a nair right? Do you use this in place of nairs often? Marth still has to stay in the air longer though right? I'll go test it. Well, anyway it would have the same applications as his shuffled nair correct. Would Marth be able to get a u-tilt after this if some tryied to grab, do you think? Or should he stick with his noramal game to avoid shield grabs?

EdiT: After discussing the auto cancel nair with Cacuar on aim, I have decided to add it to the list.

JMB falcon08: The spacing for a tipper d-tilt is well beyond that of a perfectly spaced fair. A d-tilt really isn't safe after a shielded fair. Cactuar agrees with me. Plus thier is a frame gap between the time he comes down with the shuffled fair to when he actually does the d-tilt. He can get grabbed before his sword strike even comes out.

emblem lord= godlike

how would dash past, wavedash back work? useful? i'm sure u've probably tested it. the only drawback i can think of is that it's predicted, and your opponent stays in place and grabs u.

ShoryuSwordsman said:

emblem lord= godlike

how would dash past, wavedash back work? useful? i'm sure u've probably tested it. the only drawback i can think of is that it's predicted, and your opponent stays in place and grabs u.

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Something all of you should keep in mind is if you don't see the pros using your ideas, then most likely it's either a bad approach or you made an extremely creative innovation for marth.

The run past to wavedash back and grab idea is unsafe and depends on your opponent staying in place and not grabbing you. You want to develop techniques that are more difficult to prevent.

UMBC Smasher got it right. Something like that isn't actually a solid approach. It is a mindgame. One that can be figured out and punished.

I would like to stick to solid approach methods. Mindgames are intangible. They can't be taught and can only really be seen by the people playing the game at that moment.

Emblem lord, I still stand by the fact you and other very knowledgable players should make a character specific guide, many people think its useless but every other board seems to have one and new people are always asking about matchups, you can look at my "Dead" character thread if you want.

emblem lord your too good.

ok so if your put in the situation where the sheik/marth sheilds the tipped fair, where should i go from there? obviously the grab range is good enough to where they can grab me(thats what i'm getting from you at least). so what would be some good options?

They can only grab you if you try to immedietely d-tilt after the fair. Marth stretches out his arm for the d-tilt which would allow shiek/marth to grab him. If you tipped the fair and they shielded it, I would do one of several things.

1) Just wait. Most likely they will roll or try to wavedash out of shield. Punish them for it.

2) Dash back and then dash back in. Your sudden movement backwards may confuse them or make them weary of doing anything. When you dash back in they may spot dodge or roll like before. Punishment time.

3) Dash in and grab them. This would only work if you have trained your opponent to expect you to wait or dash back after a tipped fair. They won't expect you to dash in and you can catch them off guard.

4) Pivot F-smash. Great for when someone tries to shield grab. Of course they will only grab air.

5) Do a shuffled fair or a nair. If it hits you get a free grab or combo. If they shield then you can go into Marth's guessing games. Just space it well so you don't get grabbed out of mid air.

If we're talking about safe approaches, Marth's over B is one of them. It can be used in succession to punish opponents who like to spotdodge or it can force your opponent to roll. The first hit can also pop your opponent up for an utilt depending on how light they are.

One thing I would like to add, if you find yourself constantly getting caught in a grab or aerial as your shffling aerials (Fox and Falcon are the main culprits here as they are so fast). Empty shff are a great way to create openings. Shff dash back dash forward aerial, shff waveland to w/e, etc. Very useful against players who are trying to take advantage of Marth's landing lag even when you l-cancel.

FrostByte: I'm pretty sure Marth is totally screwed if it's shielded or CCed. Also the followiing hits of the DB can be CCed as well.

I was actually going to put that down on the list originally, but I decided it was too risky to called reliable.

Arcnatural: I find that empty short hops are fairly easy to spot, but can be dangerous and hard to predict if you throw some late fairs into the mix. Force them to guess between an empty SH or a late shuffled fair. Good guessing game. I'll talk to M2k about it. Maybe a few other Marth players.

Apparently, If you bring the attacks out on the earliest possible frames, you can use the meteor on the third strike to stop your opponent from ccing. I haven't tried it yet though, so don't quote me on it.

Hmmm, then I'll definitely talk to M2K about that. I'll test out the range of the attack though. And the frame data as well. It's still up in the air if I add it or not.

BTW guys, if you haven't already done so, check out my thread on how to deal with Falco's approach and be sure to post whatever is your mind.

good thread

theres also the wavedash forward to ftilt, which i saw ken use occasionally in the past.
one of his 'inventions' that didnt get popular as his others

F-tilt is so safe at the tip. Still d-tilt is just as safe and he can do stuff off of it. I'll think about adding it. Well, if it's shielded then he is ok, and if it hits then he can tech chase which Marth is a beast at.

I'll definitely think on it.