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SWF Brawl Ladder Rankings (updated algorithms on first post)

Jihnsius

Smash Lord
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Austin, TX
Brawl has been confirmed to not have any ranking or statistics system for Wi-Fi play. That's where BLR comes in.


Challenge System

  • Upon challenging an opponent, the challenger can decide upon a single match or two out of three. Any players in Tier 03 or above will also be able to choose three out of five, four out of seven, or five out of nine.
  • Time and date of the challenge is at the players' discretion, as is how many matches to be played and whether they will do double blind picks, what have you. They must communicate (preferably on the forum so that officia's can reference it) and agree upon these factors.
  • Upon a player's defeat, he or she has 24 hours to post that defeat. The winner is then required to confirm the loss.
  • You can only challenge any specific player once a week, and cannot challenge any specific player consecutively. This will hopefully eliminate "localization" of matches, and encourage playing players from outside of your area.

Seed System (under construction)
Here's a modification of the ELO system that I've worked out.

S{player1} = S{player1} + K{player2} * -(G - E)
S = seed
G = outcome of the game (0 for win, 1 for loss)
E = expected outcome ratio
K = provisional uncertainty

Mathematically,
E = 1 / 1 + 10 ^ [(S{player1} - S{player2})/X]
X = any number decided to increase or decrease ratios. 400 by default.
K = 16 * N / Z

N = number of matches player has played
Z = T/P
W = total amount of wins player has
L = total amount of losses player has
T = total amount of games on record
P = total amount of players on record

And so the formula breaks down like this:

Every player has a seed. When player 1 beats player 2, he gains seed, which is determined by player 2's rank minus his own. This raw amount of seed to gain is multiplied into the estimated outcome of the game.

The estimated outcome of the game is figured from converting the difference between the two player's seeds into a percent.

Provisional uncertainty is a number that determines how "for sure" each player deserves that seed, derived from his total matches against average matches per player plus total wins against total losses. This gives a nice average of whether or not the player has enough matches to determine actual skill and how often the player wins or loses. If a player has only played a few games, then beating that player would only net a small amount of points, whereas if this beats player beats someone with a large amount of games, the player would net a large amount of points. Multiply this number by 16 to get a base point amount.

A few examples:
player1 seed = 2400 (challenger)
player2 seed = 1800
player2 has played 30 matches total
2000 matches total reported
300 players total registered
player1 wins, + 2 seed
player2 loses, - 2 seed
player2 loses, - 72 seed
player2 wins, + 72 seed

player1 seed = 900 (challenger)
player2 seed = 1200
player2 has played 15 matches total
500 matches total reported
90 players total registered
1 wins, + 39 seed
2 loses, - 39 seed
1 loses, - 7 seed
2 wins, + 7 seed

player1 seed = 1500 (challenger)
player2 seed = 1500
player2 has played 80 matches total
3000 matches total reported
200 players total registered
both players win/lose 43 respectively

player1 = 1500
player2 = 1500
player2 has 80 total
3000 matches total
500 players total
both players win/lose 108 respectively

As you can see from the last two examples, the smaller the matches to players ratio (or the larger the players to matches ratio), the larger the deviation in points. This is because as the player base increases, we will want a larger deviation in seed to help distinguish between ranks. If five people continuously play eachother, it'll be harder to determine if they've increased in skill until they play more players. This also works for when there are very few players signed up so that nobody can get to an unfair start (there'd have to be a preset amount of matches that have "already happened," though. After so many people have signed up, everything will start to balance out in the matches to players ratios, and thus the scoring system will also balance out.



Honor Point System

  • Everyone starts with a base Honor of 0.
  • Every 5 loss reports by player gives 1 Honor point.
  • Every 10 win reports by player gives 1 Honor point.
  • The winner can issue a citation against the loser if he or she hasn't reported the loss within 24 hours of it occurring. Citations can also be accompanied by a screenshot of the final score/outcome of the match(es).
  • After review and approval of the citation, Seed will be awarded accordingly, and 1 Honor point will be removed from the loser's total.
  • In the case that it is decided that the citation was fraudulent, the player will receive a warning. All fraudulent citations thereafter will result in a loss of 1 Honor point to the player. If infractions insist, that player may be suspended and/or banned from the ladder without notice.
  • Honor points will appear in the player's profile, following Seed.
  • Judgment on whether or not to issue a challenge to that player is thereafter up to the player's discretion.

An example of why this would be less exploitable than an online Brawl ladder: If someone has two Wiis, they could keep setting up matches against an idle character and gaining rank. We could also set it up so that not only is each account unique to the SWF user, but also to their Wii ID# and/or IP address.

The more two players play each other the less they'll win from each match reported, but losses will stay the same. This will help restrain players from constantly playing one another to gain points.

The PHP coding of this won't be too terribly hard, the only difficulty I can foresee is adding it onto the forums so it's more fluid with the board, and being given access to the SWF MySQL database in order to get it functioning nicely. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's entirely possible to do this all as nothing more than a mod of the forum, and the only modification that'll have to be personally made to the database is adding a new root database for the ladder.

Need to do: Icons for tagging onto SWF accounts.

EDIT: Reorganization and Honor Point System addition.
EDIT 2: Changed the Seeding system to more understandable Ranks. Attempted to institute reasonable Win:Lose ratios for bonuses in Tiers.
EDIT 3: Changed the Seeding system again to a more acceptable type.
 

Falling Whistness

Smash Apprentice
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So you think people would abuse a built in ranking system but don't think people will abuse the honor code.

*rolls eyes*
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
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Location
Rochester, NY
swf brawl ranking system can and will be exploited more than an official nintendo wifi ranking system...great idea tho, refine it, i think it would be friggin awesome to have ppl be ranked on SWF. Wouldnt that be cool if another official like moderator or something could choose a character and enter the match as a ref to report scores and stuff? like in melee, if 2 ppl were fighting, a 3rd chooses game and watch and enters the match. every time someone gets a kill, game and watch taunts and rings his bell lol. That would be cool for something like that in brawl, but not very practical at all.
 

Jarc

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Errr... ELO system ftw? Yours is some wacky point system that makes no sense. The best rating system (IMO) and hard to abuse was the one used by PGTour.com for Starcraft, back when it was up.

0-499 pts
500-1999 pts
2000-3999 pts
3000-3999 pts
4000-4999 pts
5000-5999 pts
6000-6999 pts
7000-7999 pts
8000-8999 pts
9000-10499 pts
10500-11999 pts
> 12000 pts

When you beat someone your level you gain +100 points, lose versus someone same level is -50 points. If the person is higher than you and you win, you gain more points or lose less points when you lose. This system is hard to abuse, since it's easy to find abusers (as long as theres a Game Log).

Starting at B- rank, you win 100 points for same level people but lose 75 for same level people as well. Starting at A- Rank, you win 75 points for same level people and lose 75 for same level people as well. At A+ you win 50 and lose 150. I'm not 100% that it's exactly those points, but it was somewhere around that, making it very hard to maintain high ranks, since you need a 2:1 win/loss ratio.
 

Jihnsius

Smash Lord
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The honor system wouldn't be too hard to upkeep, considering that all match requests, approvals, and denies would be documented, and the only people allowed on the ladder are at least semi-respected in the SWF community. If you're afraid of someone not adhering to the honor code (or if it's a very important match, such as first vs second places,) screenshots can always be used for documentation.

The PGTour seems to be fairly similar in design, except that the amount you win as you go up in rank is less. This makes sense, and would make for a much better design. I also like the way it categorizes ranks with symbols. If we were to go for this, we could have ranks displayed in the player info, and even under avatars. I'll rework my design a bit to try to fit this concept in.
 

5748

Smash Cadet
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Jun 16, 2005
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this is actually one of the better solutions to the 'ranking issue' ,. something that runs alongside SWF. awesome drafts. awesome concept. Nothing is without its flaws,. this is no exception. I'm actually really fond of this idea,. because not only does it give everyone direct access to eachother's friend codes; but it also allows everyone to see where they stand in terms of "skill"... using the word as open as possible.

by the by,. is it already 'confirmed' there is absolutely NO FORM of ranking for ssbb? If there isn't when its released,. this should really be heavily looked into.. make some noize! xD

+rep
 

Jihnsius

Smash Lord
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by the by,. is it already 'confirmed' there is absolutely NO FORM of ranking for ssbb? If there isn't when its released,. this should really be heavily looked into.. make some noize! xD
It's not confirmed, no, but I can already foresee a few problems with it, if it does exist. The main one would be one player using two Wiis to raise his ranks. Also, chances are they wouldn't use a seed format, as it's not newbie friendly. They'd more than likely just go with a win:loss ratio, or just go by wins total.
 

Jihnsius

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Updated with a new Seed/Tier system that's easier to understand and more user friendly.

EDIT: I think the ratios for win/loss Seed bonuses has too big of jumps in it. I'll revise later.
 

greenblob

Smash Lord
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I think something similar to the one we have for SSB Kaillera would work decently, but then there would have to be some sort of tournament to make the initial list.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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I strongly support this project. I know PHP and MySQL. (I'd better since I'm using it right now to build the video database! View my sig for more details.) If you need help, let me know.
 

Jihnsius

Smash Lord
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I've already worked out error handling and fetching/displaying players/seeds. Need to look into the coding of this forum. I'll post later what I'll need help with.
 

Delphiki

Smash Champion
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Is there any additional loss to a player who loses to someone several ranks beneath them?

The only thing I disagree with is your idea of a 'respected community member.' I know several very famous, important players who can hardly hold a candle to people who don't even have SWF accounts.

An example - Narfanator has like 50 posts but is ranked #20 in NorCal.

Someother criteria would be better, because you obviously can't keep track of EVERYONE. A criteria is absolutely necessary, but this one isn't very good.
 

Jihnsius

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Austin, TX
Agreed.
As for losses - your loss depends on how high or low the other player is ranked. If ranked higher, you lose less (or none at all,) and if lower, you'll lose the default amount or greater, depending on how far below you they are.
 

Fawriel

Smash Master
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Very good idea... I like the honor system, too. I'll proudly be the worst player with the most honor! *salutes to self*

Jihnsius, I'd wait a little more with coding this stuff since there've been some objections regarding flaws... with some more feedback, a very safe ranking system could be made... we still have time till Brawl comes out anyway.

As for people without an SWF account, they could be invited by players already in the list. Most renowned good players know some others, and chances are someone they know is here and can tell them about the rankings and stuff. And it shouldn't be too hard to just make an account to report results.

What I wonder is how this will be maintained? It should be open to lots of players, not just the elite. But that would mean lots of traffic. Someone would have to take care of all this, and it could mean lots of bandwidth for the poor owners of these forums...
That's the most important thing to worry about now, I think...
How to make this list accessible for as many people as possible without bandwidth or work overload?
 

Jihnsius

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How to make this list accessible for as many people as possible without bandwidth or work overload?
If the website would become popular to the point where we need to pay for a highspeed server, we could always incorporate Google Ads to pay for the upkeep of the server.

As for coding, I'm putting that on hold until Brawl's been out for a couple of weeks and we have a chance to consider whether this would be a good idea or not. Who knows, Brawl's online mode might be terrible and nobody would go for this.
 

Jihnsius

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Might as well have it on Gamebattles since you basically copied the whole layout of the ladder from them.
There's really only one solid way to do a ladder and have it functional, with many variations therein. How's this; instead of saying I copied off of a site that I (and most gamers, I bet, for that matter) have never heard of, just say I copied it from the first Olympians, Aztecs, Dynasts, or whatknowyou.

Having a Brawl-specific ladder has many, many more advantages than would be if we hosted on another ladder site. Customization in format, customization in layout, unity in the community, bringing new players into the SWF community, et cetera.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Jihnsius, I had a similar idea to this before, and I still plan on building my Tournament Smash Nexus (to complement my Video Smash Nexus). Maybe this very project could become the TSN. :)
 

Jihnsius

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Jihnsius, I had a similar idea to this before, and I still plan on building my Tournament Smash Nexus (to complement my Video Smash Nexus). Maybe this very project could become the TSN. :)
This coming from someone that gave me personal praise for such a great idea a month ago? ;)

If you go ahead and start it up, I got dibs on co-production.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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"similar"... not identical. Your idea is better.
 

Pasqual

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Just a small comment about the grace periods. I think it should be available before Tier 03, if not to everyone. Each case would still be on individual discretion, of course, but limiting the grace's to only the upper echelon when everybody goes on vacation/house burns down/breaks hand juggling/etc seems a tad unfair.
 

Sonicfan813

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Messages
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If Nintendo was to create an online ranking system, I would suggest it be like the Halo 2 rankings. Different game modes: FFA, 1 v 1, 2 v 2 (arranged partners allowed)...could be implemented and matches would be ranked. It currently is the best matchmaking because it picks a similar skill with a good connection.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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This idea definitely needs more room to breathe since there are so many aspects to it. I would post a link here, but I fear it may violate the rules. So, um... click the link in my sig. XD
 

Chi's Finest

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There's really only one solid way to do a ladder and have it functional, with many variations therein. How's this; instead of saying I copied off of a site that I (and most gamers, I bet, for that matter) have never heard of, just say I copied it from the first Olympians, Aztecs, Dynasts, or whatknowyou.

Having a Brawl-specific ladder has many, many more advantages than would be if we hosted on another ladder site. Customization in format, customization in layout, unity in the community, bringing new players into the SWF community, et cetera.
Most gamers never hear of?! Gamebattle's is MLG's ladder site, and the largest latter and tournament site for video games and PC. I can guarantee that most people on this site have heard of MLG and Gamebattles.
 

Jihnsius

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Bragging rights, yeah, pretty much... Or maybe something to aim for? Being able to know where people are at in terms of skill, on a universal level, since we haven't really had anything like that for Smash yet other than travelling long distances for tournaments.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Bragging rights are certainly among the perks to a ranking system, but having a tangible system allows players to set goals. Pushing one's own rank up is something to shoot for. It is far more motivating.
 

Pasqual

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What is the possibility of crew rankings? There'd probably have to be some limit on the number of people in a given crew (10 or 20?) but I think many out there would be interested in this. I guess this would have to do with the average of all the members' rankings, but that may lead to crews dropping members when they have low rankings and adding them back when they're higher, or just inviting random people who're well ranked for the purpose of buffing your crew.

Also, is there going to be just the one SWF ladder encompassing all players, or is there a chance of subregions? If not making seperate ladders, then being able to search for players by city/state in order of ranking would go towards the bragging rights thing.

Those two could also be combined, I guess, for regional crew rankings or whatever.
 

Fawriel

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Crew rankings should solely be decided in tournaments to avoid the dropping and rank-buffing stuff. Good crews could still afford to have weaker members in training if they aren't part of the official battle team.
 

JustShyofGenius

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Personally, I think that the best way to do rankings is to just do a basic ELO rating.

Have everyone start at a rating of say, 2500 and have each match worth a set amount of points. It's generally 15 points or so. The person that wins gains points equal to 15*their rating/opponent's rating. The person that loses loses the same amount of points. This is the simplest and most efficient way to do a ratings system.

The base rate of points the match is worth would also depend on how important the match was. For a casual pick-up match, it would be the lowest (15) and for a tournament, it could be like 30. For a championship or whatever, it could be 50, etc.

It is important that the amount of points gained and lost is the same for each player. This helps to prevent abuse. If you gain more by winning than by losing, then people will just take turns beating each other and inflating each other's ratings.

Also, I don't think there is any need to have labels associated with certain ratings. Just have a leaderboard and the rating speaks for itself without a label. The labels just aren't neccessary.

I'm not sure it is neccessary to implement something to make players lose points with inactivity, either. The ratings for top players will continue to climb and people who don't play will get passed up naturally.

You would of course want to have seperate ratings for different modes of play, without getting to distinct. Have something like 1vs1, Team and FFA ratings.

That's all the input I've got for now, and even though I'm new to these forums, I can't wait to hopefully participate in this when Brawl comes out.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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*signs JustShyofGenius' post*

I like those ideas a lot, and they make a lot of sense! It would seem the math needs a little bit of work, but the concept is brilliant.
 

Genuine

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No I think the math is good; it does have some flaws though. Seeing as if you hit 3000 points and if you face a 3000 point guy, well 15*3000/3000=15. So seeing the only way to gain more points is to face some1 higher in the ranks. But if you do you have higher chance of losing. however I have no problem with this because 15 points or less can be fun. I can enjoy 4 stocking a lvl 9 char for hours so I see no problem in "grinding" see as you may learn new things and just have fun. However I do propose if you were to do this raise the points up per couple of points <--- that sentence made me sound like a hypocrite lol

like

2500= 15
3000=20
3500=25
4000+=30+

With points like these it will make reaching 4000 quite difficult so the people who did you will know they are good and dedicated to this game.

P.s I would like to help in coding. I am teh nub but I would like to learn. And i will be your lap dog and do whatever you say. I am not that beginner though
 

JustShyofGenius

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That's the point of the whole system. You are rewarded more for beating someone of relative or greater skill and punished for losing to someone with a significantly lower rating.

This is a similar system to what most CCG's (collectible card games) uses. Yahoo games also uses it.

Edit to avoid double post:

Not to say that Genuine's idea isn't without merit, but I think that the only thing that should determine the base value of how much the match is worth should be the importance of the match, not who is in the match.
 

Genuine

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Hmm that does seem better. Getting 15 in all normal matches would be fine but however if SWF had an online tournament( hey its possible) the base value could increase as you get deeper in to the tournament like the beginning matches could be 15-20 points and the finals could be anywhere from 50-100. Note if this isnt what you mean by importance of a match ima feel like an idiot
 
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