Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Most used move imo is throwing the bomb down after jumping because it starts combos.

darkNES386 said:

I was chatting with Legan on the Link boards... isn't he from Sweden?! I've never bothered trying to play anyone that far away. PR is the furthest. Back on topic, Link is at the bottom of the tier list primarily because of his bad match up against characters with strong chain grabs like falco and DeDeDe. His biggest weakness is how easily he can be gimped (killed early at low percents (For those not familiar with the lingo). One of his best recoveries is the double tap Z tether. This gives him invincibility frames when he hooks the ledge.

I'm not one to depend on gimping with Sonic, but it looks like this is something that Link is weakest at. If you can do anything to force him off stage then you should keep pressure on him at all costs. Even if it's jumping out and then quickly grabbing the ledge to limit one of his recoveries. If you time it right, your invincible frames will protect you from any projectiles, similar to when ivysaur is trying to recover. His tether is no where near as long as Samus' so keep in mind that he has to be much closer to use it. He can also use it only up to 3 times before he must grab solid ground again. If you see link fast falling from the ledge and using his tether... keep track of this and you'll know when he's GOING to have to come up.

This week sucked with school so maybe I can get some matches in with Links (which I really didn't get to do with DK).

Edit: Like ^^ he said

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Nah, Legan is from the States. Izaw is the guy from Sweden, he made the cool movie full of Link Advanced Tactics. Legan is a really good link to practice against though, he is totally into the wifi play.

Finns7 said:

Most used move imo is throwing the bomb down after jumping because it starts combos.

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Is it common though, as in, has it become a mainstream kind of movement?

Granted, Legan does it alot, but he's the first and only Link I've seen to make use of bombs that way, and I really thought it was a cool/smart/etc thing to do.

It is common for good Link players because you have many options after doing it. bomb to nair to jab cancel to dsmash or smash or spin attack or grab to ect....You can also use it for killing by doing a dair after you thrown the bomb down. You can footstool them once there hit and you can do a dair Link has many options, if your playing a skilled link beware Tenki you dont remember us playing.

Hmm... I would say Sonic is a relatively neutral matchup for Link. Sonic has his massive ground speed, but his airiel game is rather sub-par to Link's... Also, I've found from playing a number of good Sonics, that Link's Nair stops pretty much everything of Sonic's dead in it's tracks, makes for easy camping since most Sonics have a similar approach.

Of all Link's projectiles, I find the most useless against Sonic is the Galerang, and the most effetive to be Bombs. Arrows are kinda in the middle, because they can easily stop most of his ground approaches... I think...



On the other hand, a good Sonic definitely knows how to put on the pressure. Anyone here played against a Sonic user by the name of Shugo? That kid's an absolute beast. X_x


I dunno, I guess I would call it a somewhat even match. If not slighty in Sonic's favor because it's a little tough for Link to deal with his annoyingly high speed. But it's nothing major. Might as well just call it 50/50. It's a very strange match-up though if you ask me.

Blubba_Pinecone said:

Also, I've found from playing a number of good Sonics, that Link's Nair stops pretty much everything of Sonic's dead in it's tracks, makes for easy camping since most Sonics have a similar approach.

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I agree with the N-air thing.

I was going to make a counterstatement about the similar approach thing, since alot of the really good Sonics I play against have starkly different playstyles, but I guess that's a minority lol.

Blubba_Pinecone said:

I dunno, I guess I would call it a somewhat even match. If not slighty in Sonic's favor because it's a little tough for Link to deal with his annoyingly high speed. But it's nothing major. Might as well just call it 50/50. It's a very strange match-up though if you ask me.

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Yeah, all matchups concerning Sonic are weird. On one hand, you have moveset vs moveset, which tends to create the image that Sonic is at a disadvantage. Then you have rabid Sonic fa- ..mains that argue about Sonic's punishing ability or some other thing relating to Sonic's speed. Then the matchup discussion deteriorates and becomes really muddy since the line between player skill and character ability starts to blur.

Blubba_Pinecone said:

On the other hand, a good Sonic definitely knows how to put on the pressure. Anyone here played against a Sonic user by the name of Shugo? That kid's an absolute beast. X_x

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Heyy I actually ran into that guy on AiB the other day! He's pretty good! But I won moar. mwahahaha

A good link should be able to beat a good Sonic.

A great Sonic should be able to beat a Great link, though.

I use Link on the side, but I have never played Sonic at all in this matchup. My honest guess is that this is one of Sonic's better matchups considering how easy it is to gimp Link, and considering how most of Link's other bad matchups are vs fast characters, but I don't know really.

One thing I'd suggest to Sonic mains is never recover from below if you can help it. You will get D-aired and it will suck.

i am swinging toward advantage sonic 60:40 so far. will be playing a link tonight so i can refine and input more (coz i am almost useless on this matchup)

also scap d-throw kills unless u are gonna chase after them with ha or fair.
u ca edgehog kill with it at something like 180 if u r desperate maybe lol?

good news is our fsmash can kill from middle of fd at something like 110 with di.

also anyone well versed in this matchup use sdr first hit to spring for a quick 14% with an easy exit?

Boxob said:

A good link should be able to beat a good Sonic.

A great Sonic should be able to beat a Great link, though.

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This is a beast of a post.

A2ZOMG said:

I use Link on the side, but I have never played Sonic at all in this matchup. My honest guess is that this is one of Sonic's better matchups considering how easy it is to gimp Link, and considering how most of Link's other bad matchups are vs fast characters, but I don't know really.

One thing I'd suggest to Sonic mains is never recover from below if you can help it. You will get D-aired and it will suck.

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I can't see it happening. If I'm in a position to spring from below, I'd feel pretty safe about having time to air dodge. But of course I don't play good Links often.

I miss Melee Link.

Teh Umby said:

I can't see it happening. If I'm in a position to spring from below, I'd feel pretty safe about having time to air dodge. But of course I don't play good Links often.

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Well, it applies when fighting any character, and not just Link.

The first frames or so, Sonic can be hit out of the spring either before or slightly after he spawns it. Then for the first third or so (about full hop height) of the spring jump, he has invincibility, then there's a bit of distance (maybe half of shorthop?) where Sonic is vulnerable but has no control (at all), then you can airdodge.

It's just a matter of you controlling your own height and spacing when you recover.

If you're vertically close to the ledge, you can use invincibility frames. If you're low below the edge, you can airdodge so you basically float by the ledge in airdodge state and land with no landing lag (since landing lag out of neutral state/airdodge only comes from falling too fast).

Other than poor spacing (passing your opponent during that window of vulnerability) or attacking instead of airdodging, there shouldn't be any reason why you should be hit out of a spring jump.

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Boxob is a pretty cool guy.

Just don't go for Uair kills. it is tempting but its a bad idea in this matchup.

Greenstreet said:

How to Win:
If you are ever hanging on the ledge, link can SH dair over the edge and if you do anything except roll onto the stage, youre going to die. even so, theres still no avoiding it if he predicts a roll onto the stage and just hovers over the end of the roll to dair you. i think the safest way out is to just jump off the edge and maybe spinshot or spring/homing attack back onto the stage.
-ROOOOY!

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That's a misquote. I don't think I ever said that, it was probably someone else.

ok thanks. i got a bit confused on my references i'll go figure it out.

yer it was dj that said that.

The only big hurdle in getting this finished by tomorrow is I want a comprehensive list of commnly used moves, I'm not sure how Links use everything (especially projectiles) so I'd appreciated anyone with experience to help out.

Teh Umby said:

I can't see it happening. If I'm in a position to spring from below, I'd feel pretty safe about having time to air dodge. But of course I don't play good Links often.

I miss Melee Link.

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I highly suspect that it's a lot harder for Sonic to avoid Link's D-air than he'd like if he's recovering from below.

Like seriously, I punish Sonic close to 100% of the time for recovering from below by using G&W's slowfalled D-air. I don't see why this is too much of a different situation for Link, considering his normal fall speed is like the same as G&W's fastfall speed, and since his D-air also lasts forever. Except well, G&W has better recovery so can jump a little bit further out with a D-air, but that's it really.

A2ZOMG said:

I highly suspect that it's a lot harder for Sonic to avoid Link's D-air than he'd like if he's recovering from below.

Like seriously, I punish Sonic close to 100% of the time for recovering from below by using G&W's slowfalled D-air. I don't see why this is too much of a different situation for Link, considering his normal fall speed is like the same as G&W's fastfall speed, and since his D-air also lasts forever. Except well, G&W has better recovery so can jump a little bit further out with a D-air, but that's it really.

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Anecdotal evidence does not apply and even if it did, the Sonic you re facing must be extremely stupid to ^ Bfrom below where Link can reach him with the Dair.

Let alone not many Sonic's have to recover below the stage unless necessary.

You are not going to punish Sonic with the Dair period.
sonic is much faster aerially and rarely will recover in a position that will allow Link to actually hit him with the Dair.

ha recovery solves that problem as well anyway if necessary

A2ZOMG said:

I highly suspect that it's a lot harder for Sonic to avoid Link's D-air than he'd like if he's recovering from below.

Like seriously, I punish Sonic close to 100% of the time for recovering from below by using G&W's slowfalled D-air. I don't see why this is too much of a different situation for Link, considering his normal fall speed is like the same as G&W's fastfall speed, and since his D-air also lasts forever. Except well, G&W has better recovery so can jump a little bit further out with a D-air, but that's it really.

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sawp.

Tenki said:

Well, it applies when fighting any character, and not just Link.
and, in this second anecdotal case, GAW. I'd also like to say that I've been spiked out of this by DK's for the following reasons, as well:

The first frames or so, Sonic can be hit out of the spring either before or slightly after he spawns it. Then for the first third or so (about full hop height) of the spring jump, he has invincibility, then there's a bit of distance (maybe half of shorthop?) where Sonic is vulnerable but has no control (at all), then you can airdodge.

It's just a matter of you controlling your own height and spacing when you recover.

If you're vertically close to the ledge, you can use invincibility frames. If you're low below the edge, you can airdodge so you basically float by the ledge in airdodge state and land with no landing lag (since landing lag out of neutral state/airdodge only comes from falling too fast).

Other than poor spacing (passing your opponent during that window of vulnerability) or attacking instead of airdodging, there shouldn't be any reason why you should be hit out of a spring jump.

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edits/further additions in blue.
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Also, if you want to spring>aerial a Link, you're better off going sideways and doing B-air. If he does D-air, he's doing downwards DI, which makes a horizontal kill easier. If he does upwards DI, it sends him flying upwards at a very steep angle (and at that height, star KO)

It's possible to U-throw>spring>U-air-kill a Link, but it requires either a low% where you can hitstun combo from the U-throw straight to the first hit of the U-air (requires perfect DI and %'s, AND an unstale U-air, so it actually kills), or do the easier thing and give him 10% more damage than usual, so if he starts a U-air or airdodges as he's rising, he'll not be in hitstun, but still be in the perfect % range for you to move around so you don't rise directly under him, then tip him with D-air.

Say, how about that SPIN DASH recovery? I heard it's pretty cool.

i find that the hitboxes on u-air are wider than some characters d-air. for instance i can hit a gaw out of a key with an u-air as long as i am a bit wider out. would this apply to link?

Greenstreet said:

i find that the hitboxes on u-air are wider than some characters d-air. for instance i can hit a gaw out of a key with an u-air as long as i am a bit wider out. would this apply to link?

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ehhhhh....maybe. But personally, I would not risk it with Sonic. If you can pull it off quick enough, then possibly. Otherwise I would avoid it

its easy enough to do if they are using the d-air for a quicker fall or hoping for a fluke hit, and it's not a matter of speed, it's just about placing it right.
He could have his d-air out forever, as long as the u-air is placed right, Sonic wont be touched.

anywho... my propsed list for common moves:

bombs
rangs
arrows
usmash
utilt
dair
nair

what? more like

bombs
zair
jab
and dsmash for the KO

well i dont hav the experience so yer ... thanks dj i'll look into it

lol @ my theory that all Link players play differently.

djbrowny said:

what? more like

bombs
zair
jab
and dsmash for the KO

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Greenstreet said:

its easy enough to do if they are using the d-air for a quicker fall or hoping for a fluke hit, and it's not a matter of speed, it's just about placing it right.
He could have his d-air out forever, as long as the u-air is placed right, Sonic wont be touched.

anywho... my propsed list for common moves:

bombs
rangs
arrows
usmash
utilt
dair
nair

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Bombs (usually dropped to set up for aerial or thrown in conjunction with another projectile)
Boomerang (usually thrown at an angle to work with another projectile/move)
Arrows (can be shot while landing to do double arrows - only really a threat if you're both grounded)
U-smash (usually DAC)
F-tilt (Pivot Slide)
N-air
Z-air
Jab (can be cancelled to go into other moves, like Ike/Falcon, so don't always assume it'll be jabjabjab)
F-smash/D-smash/D-air for kills (though, grounded Up-B and the other aerials can be used too, situationally)

new page here wanted for next char?

Greenstreet said:

new page here wanted for next char?

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Before you start the next character I figure i could add something about this matchup.

Id agree with the matchup being in sonics favor. After playing Tenki and some other freakishly good sonics, I came to realize that sonic can have his way with link if he doesnt understand the matchup. This is assuming that the sonic has experience with link and isnt careless. Most of sonics aerials render the gale boomerang useless, Shield dash approaching and just taking your time can really screw with links bomb game. Not to mention, sonic is fast as balls. If the link knows how to use his aerials perfectly while mixing in a perfect blend of arrow cancels and down thrown bombs, Then it's in the bag for link. For the people that that it is hard to dair a recovering sonic I lol @ you. Sonics recovery is awkward and it rarely sweet spots, It is nothing to run off the stage and dair his up B or bair stage spike him.

Ill help you out with how an experienced link plays out (Alot of you think you've played good links, and alot of link players think they are good, but there is a huge gap between tourney experienced link players and average joes)

Zair- Used for recovering, spacing, approaching, and retreating. There is absolutely no lag after it meaning the player can follow up with any attack they want. They can also zair while holding a bomb, which means if you get hit with the zair, you're mostly likely going to get an explosive in your face immediately after. This attack is quick and can be done immidately out of an airdodge.

arrow cancelling- This is when link shoots an arrow as soon as he hits the ground, there is a slight lag after the shot but he can short hop it and do it out of aerials, the most commonly used is to use it after a back air. This will stop sonic in his tracks when he thinks he has an easy approach.

Craq Walking-Link has this rediculous ability to slide all over the place. This momentum technique works best after using a zair or a short hopped bair/nair. Every move that link makes is a potential mindgame.

Pivot Boosting- This is a technique that's been around for awhile but wasnt utilized until I showed the link community how to incorporate it recently. If you see link doing a 360 degree turn, Watch out. He can follow up with any attack while using his momentum to approach you. He can slide helaciously far by pivoting multiple times. The mindgame potential with this technique are endless.

Jab Lock-Another technique that seperates the pros from the scrubs. Sonic better slow his roll around link because if link knocks sonic on his *** with a foostool or boomerang it's over. Link will infinite jab you to the end of the stage or finish you off whenever he feels like it. Death is iminate if you get caught.

These are just a few of the advance techs link has at his disposal. If the link knows all of his AT's and is a smart player, I dont think there is any character that will dominate him. I hope this helped at least a little bit. Im not the best at explaining all this crap.

PS: TENKI FOR PRESIDENT!

Ok. The matchup currently stands as advantage Sonic, as that seems to be not only the majority vote, but the opinion of a few Link mainers as well.
I am only willing to say 60:40 to Sonic, because,well... as stated by Legan, 'If the link knows how to use his aerials perfectly while mixing in a perfect blend of arrow cancels and down thrown bombs, Then it's in the bag for link'
...

I agree with that veredict greenstreet (I had said at worst it is even, but I generally consider it to be 55:50 to 60:40)

McCoolies. Well I'd like to start Samus on the next page then.

Okidokes greenychokes(don't actually choke)

easy peasy japasqueezy.
Seriously tho, before progress, any extra recommended stages info? Coz thats the only thing that is lacking guys.

Maybe Rainbow Cruise.

edit:
OH OH OH BRINSTAR!

Bridge D-throw is like instarape on Link.

aa;sldkjfa;slkdjfa;lskdjfa

that is possibly the least informative tenki post i've seen in my life...

but very well. I'm sure i could find a way to elaborate what you were trying to convey lol.

Samus Time

Samus Time.

Samus Time

its always good to have some hu doesnt care about double posting

Is it Samus time yet? D:

i'm not sure if boxob will throw a post in but i'll try and push it over