Matchup Discussion Export

What can Mario to do to rack up damage consistantly?
Fireballs can be avoided.
Aerial chains can be sprung out of.
They cancel each other out. srsly.
What Sonic can do to damage Mario is tech chase out of his Dthrow.
Seriously the best thing you can do in the match-up. If you're up in his face after the Dthrow, he can't fireball, or control the match, you outrange Mario on the ground with dtilt and ftilt.

I'm gonna jump on wifi... hopefull will sort this out.

ROOOOY! said:

What can Mario to do to rack up damage consistantly?
Fireballs can be avoided.
Aerial chains can be sprung out of.
They cancel each other out. srsly.
What Sonic can do to damage Mario is tech chase out of his Dthrow.
Seriously the best thing you can do in the match-up. If you're up in his face after the Dthrow, he can't fireball, or control the match, you outrange Mario on the ground with dtilt and ftilt.

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That's the matchup is you look at it from a linear perspective.

Fireballs can be avoided

So can MK's Tornado.

Aerial chains can be sprung out of

All this does is reset the battle to neutral instead of Mario being on the attack. This is all assuming that we don't punish your Dair as you try to return to the ground, which we already know is coming.

What Sonic can do to damage Mario is tech chase out of his Dthrow.

We've got Utilt chains, fireball combos, jab -> grab/dsmash, Uair chains, Bair WoP, and generally more aerial priority. Your tech chase out of Dthrow is good, but your grabs come from punishing laggy aerials and mistakes, of which Mario won't be using/making very often in this matchup for that very reason. Your attack options are just as risky as ours.

you outrange Mario on the ground with dtilt and ftilt

If you're comparing to our ftilt and dtilt, keep in mind that both are uncommonly used attacks (dtilt is an accident EVERY time it comes out for me). Fsmash and Dsmash are what I use most since Mario's Fsmash still has excellent KO power even staled. In this matchup, since Mario can't gimp Sonic, however, it'd probably be better kept fresh.

Slight advantage Mario, but if Sonic players wants to be in denial, call it even at best :]

Matador said:

That's the matchup is you look at it from a linear perspective.

Fireballs can be avoided

So can MK's Tornado.

Aerial chains can be sprung out of

All this does is reset the battle to neutral instead of Mario being on the attack. This is all assuming that we don't punish your Dair as you try to return to the ground, which we already know is coming.

What Sonic can do to damage Mario is tech chase out of his Dthrow.

We've got Utilt chains, fireball combos, jab -> grab/dsmash, Uair chains, Bair WoP, and generally more aerial priority. Your tech chase out of Dthrow is good, but your grabs come from punishing laggy aerials and mistakes, of which Mario won't be using/making very often in this matchup for that very reason. Your attack options are just as risky as ours.

you outrange Mario on the ground with dtilt and ftilt

If you're comparing to our ftilt and dtilt, keep in mind that both are uncommonly used attacks (dtilt is an accident EVERY time it comes out for me). Fsmash and Dsmash are what I use most since Mario's Fsmash still has excellent KO power even staled. In this matchup, since Mario can't gimp Sonic, however, it'd probably be better kept fresh.

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You can't compare Fireballs to tornado. You can't simply jump over a tornado.

And I don't often spring -> dair. But then I have a weird playstyle. I often just fall to the ground then airdodge just before I hit it to avoid getting landing camped.
I suppose springing out of aerial change isn't his only option. Infact, if the Mario is coming in from below Sonic could just airdodge (thanks to the broken airdodging physics Brawl has) and that'd put him in position for a well spaced u-air, which outranges Mario from below.
And it's the fact that the game keeps getting reset to 'neutral' everytime Sonic springs away that'll frustrate the opponent and make him more prone to mistakes. It'll be less effective on a person who can keep a cool head, but it's still feasible.
And yes, Mario does have more killing power than Sonic. His up angled fsmash kills at about 15% lower than Sonic's does. Sonic's dsmash is pretty useful for killing, along with bair though.

^^And it's funny. I've seen more Mario mains in this discussion say it's neutral then I have for Mario's advantage. Infact, if my memory serves me correctly it's only you and Teh Spammerer who've said it. Tenki came in and is in the same boat as me saying it's either neutral or Mario's advantage. Everyone else has said neutral.
So...yeah.

i am officially in the nuetral boat. and i am not in denial because for about an hour there i was supporting a mario advantage. we are trying not to be biased...so being in denial wont help us get an accurate result. I honestly belive nuetral because altho mario has better priority i think sonics attacks can still compete.
our utilt trades with ur bair, so there goes a wall of pain. and our nair trades hits with ur u-air. so wen we come back down we dont have to do a d-air because nair or airdodge is just as effective.

plus as stated in the sonic thread here i believe sonics gimping abilities against mario are understated.

+ sonics ground game > marios. u can say that u use smash most of the time rather than ur tilts, but sonics ftilt is still going to come out faster then ur fmash.

I'd really want to play some of you Sonic mains online, but most of you seem to live pretty far away. =(

As for the ground game thing, Mario has better out of shield options I'll point out. U-smash and Up-B are too good, and everything else Mario has comes out faster.

Matador said:

We've got Utilt chains, fireball combos, jab -> grab/dsmash, Uair chains, Bair WoP, and generally more aerial priority. Your tech chase out of Dthrow is good, but your grabs come from punishing laggy aerials and mistakes, of which Mario won't be using/making very often in this matchup for that very reason. Your attack options are just as risky as ours.

If you're comparing to our ftilt and dtilt, keep in mind that both are uncommonly used attacks (dtilt is an accident EVERY time it comes out for me). Fsmash and Dsmash are what I use most since Mario's Fsmash still has excellent KO power even staled. In this matchup, since Mario can't gimp Sonic, however, it'd probably be better kept fresh.

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argh

the utlit chain does not work at all. its escapable after 1 hit with the spring, and ends up with mario on 4% and sonic on 7%. i dont know how you see it, but thats a pretty lousy risk v reward scenario for using a utilt over any other attack. Sonics attacks are in no way more risky than marios. his finishers are of course, but he also has a bair that completely outranges marios aerials to finish with if needed.

dont assume f/dilt are uncommon sonic moves. dtilt especially is a really good attack in terms of range, cooldown lag (minimal), it trips, and cancels out fireballs. his ftilt is just as good in terms of range but doesnt allow follow-ups like the dtilt. I honestly think dtilt and uair are sonics key moves to abuse in this matchup since they are both practically unpunishable to anything slower than an mk dsmash and have very good range

--

i now realise you were talkig about marios tilts. either ay sonic tilts are very good, there arent too many character he outranges with his f/dtilt, but mario is one of them and as such they should be used often

ROOOOY! said:

You can't compare Fireballs to tornado. You can't simply jump over a tornado.

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Nor can you simply jump over fireballs. Fireballs aren't for camping, or projectile spamming to force approaches because, quite frankly, it sucks at it. It's more for creating approaches and forcing opponents into pre-determined positions for punishment. If you're hit, I'll probably come in for a grab, if you jump, I'm going for a rising Dair -> some other aerial depending on whether or not it hits. Its usage varies.

ROOOOY! said:

And I don't often spring -> dair. But then I have a weird playstyle. I often just fall to the ground then airdodge just before I hit it to avoid getting landing camped.
I suppose springing out of aerial change isn't his only option. Infact, if the Mario is coming in from below Sonic could just airdodge (thanks to the broken airdodging physics Brawl has) and that'd put him in position for a well spaced u-air, which outranges Mario from below.
And it's the fact that the game keeps getting reset to 'neutral' everytime Sonic springs away that'll frustrate the opponent and make him more prone to mistakes. It'll be less effective on a person who can keep a cool head, but it's still feasible.
And yes, Mario does have more killing power than Sonic. His up angled fsmash kills at about 15% lower than Sonic's does. Sonic's dsmash is pretty useful for killing, along with bair though.

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Your scenario is assuming that Sonic is falling faster than Mario. I was under the delusion that you can't fastfall after upB, which is why autocancelled Dairs are so great. Relying on timing airdodges isn't a good position at ALL either, seeing as anyone with half a brain knows they're coming.

You can't assume that someone would get pissed because you're using your upB effectively; that's for scrubs

ROOOOY! said:

^^And it's funny. I've seen more Mario mains in this discussion say it's neutral then I have for Mario's advantage. Infact, if my memory serves me correctly it's only you and Teh Spammerer who've said it. Tenki came in and is in the same boat as me saying it's either neutral or Mario's advantage. Everyone else has said neutral.
So...yeah.

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I think you're talking to Kanzaki here, but just making sure. I'm still in the even boat.

djbrowny said:

argh

the utlit chain does not work at all. its escapable after 1 hit with the spring, and ends up with mario on 4% and sonic on 7%. i dont know how you see it, but thats a pretty lousy risk v reward scenario for using a utilt over any other attack. Sonics attacks are in no way more risky than marios. his finishers are of course, but he also has a bair that completely outranges marios aerials to finish with if needed.

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Indeed, I'll agree that Utilt chains don't really work other than reseting the battle to neutral. I never said his attacks are more risky, but equally as risky because both parties have attacks that outprioritize each other basically actions for every reaction.

I live to outrageous % from Bair unless done from spring height.

djbrowny said:

dont assume f/dilt are uncommon sonic moves. dtilt especially is a really good attack in terms of range, cooldown lag (minimal), it trips, and cancels out fireballs. his ftilt is just as good in terms of range but doesnt allow follow-ups like the dtilt. I honestly think dtilt and uair are sonics key moves to abuse in this matchup since they are both practically unpunishable to anything slower than an mk dsmash and have very good range

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Both attacks (dtilt and uair) should be abused in this matchup the same way we should be abusing fireball approaches and Dsmash since Sonic has generally more ground priority.

You guys are making some pretty good arguments. I'm starting to wonder why the matchup should be even neutral.

I think even is a fair result. Sorry for some of what I said last night being kinda..ehhish.
It was about half 5 in the morning. xD
I just can't see where either character is going to be able to rack up damage consistantly. All strengths of each character are quashed by the other characters strengths (springing out of utilt chains, Sonic being ungimpable etc.)
When it comes down to it, the fireballs are just used to annoy and force an approach, Sonic approaching from the air does not give Mario much of an advantage. The match-up is all about spacing and really back to basics stuff. Even though Sonic's ground spacing is better, Mario's short hopped aerials allow him to compete in that department.

i don't understand why people think mario sucks so much. In this match up, mario can easily pawn sonic. Sonic is easy to cape, fireballs own him, mario has way more priority, if you keep your distance you can easily anticipate the space sonic uses for his moves and pawn him again. What makes sonic difficult is his recovery, that's it.

Sheesh honestly though, that upB uair chase thingy that sonic mainers use on me is pointless. I've killed people using well timed mario dairs when they use that sonic uair upb combo and gotten multilple kills from it. I just wish i had the video capture card to show you guys.

In general, sonic isn't too much of a threat on marios plate, as a matter of fact, i'll challenge any sonic mainer in a wifi match right now to prove my point. No johns please if you do feel like challenging me, unless the lag is EXTREMELY slow to a point where it really is unplayable. I've played some decent matches online, even though in general it does messes with my play style, if you can deal with it, then i can too...


Heheheh any takers?

^^ I guess you're talking about Sonic's UpB -> U-air 'combo.' A dair won't break it, trust me. And I'd play you but I'm from England, so I'd leave an American Sonic to take you up on that if you get any offers.
Besides, we've more or less decided on our board that it is neutral, which it seems to be widely accepted by both sides bar one or two people.

the very last animation of mario's dair buddy, has enough priority to send sonic flying. If the two moves connected, the only person that would be flying is sonic, since the last hit of the dair has more priority than the uair.

Its not that hard to time it perfectly since marios dair is quick and easy to utilize......heheh TRUST ME. If you ever faced a "SMAAARRRRRRT" mario mainer and did that combo, you better prepare yourself.

Mario and sonic are neutral at best, but mario has more of an upper hand. Nuff said..

aLsO, i wouldn't mind convincing people otherwise that mario either should be neutral or slightly advantageous against sonic... wiFi?

yeh it does but by the time it comes out u have already received 2 hits from an u-air. u are better off using your nair.

Sonic matchup discussions are always a pain to discuss with people because:
1) Almost every Sonic main plays differently from one another, so your experience with what works and doesn't (btw, lol@ Sonic is easily caped) will not be the same for everyone.
2) Moveset vs Movesets tend to make matchups lean towards Sonic's disadvantage, but in-game, it's generally disagreed on whether Sonic's avoidance/outmanuevering of moves is a trait of his speed, or a part of player skill.
3) Sonic fanboys.


That said, hello Mario boards.

A2ZOMG said:

Speed to punish lag is an advantage which Mario takes away from Sonic by fireball camping. This limits Sonic to doing Homing Attacks if he wants to punish anything from a distance. Sonic's best quality I repeat is PUNISHING. If he's being projectile camped, he can't use his run or spindash speed AT ALL.

You should keep in mind, Sonic's best stage in fact is Final Destination, where he has a lot of space to run around.

BETTER YET, Anyone could simply SDI out of the U-smash.

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On fireballs:
- Character A runs and shields/pshields fireball. Followup? Spotdodgeable. Second fireball? Shieldable. The effectiveness of fireball spam is somewhat clouded by this.

Now let's bring Sonic into the equation- Speed is not very effective from far away, unless what Sonic is doing is chasing. It's actually most effective in mid-close range, since it makes punishments from successful baits much easier to get to. For the sloppy Mario players, fullhopped fireballs = Sonic running under / behind you.

- FD is good for Sonic not necessarily because of running space, but because of lack of 'disruption' by platforms and uh.. balloons. But again, some Sonic mains will disagree on this, as they prefer platform stages. The majority of Sonic mains will, however, agree that FD is a good stage for Sonic.

- SDI out of U-smash? It's about as easy as doing SDI out of Zelda's U-smash or MK's tornado. If you hit with the initial part of the U-smash, it will send people flying prematurely out of it regardless of DI. If done from a slide or any other way so that the initial hit misses, it's virtually inescapable.

A2ZOMG said:

Teh_Spammerer is better than all of you and he says Mario has the advantage for sure.

After that, Mario has way better kill moves. Sonic can almost never vertikill. Mario has a GOOD vertikill option with undiminished U-smashes. Mario's F-smash gets more range than Sonic's.

Mario can also stop most of Sonic's attacks by simply N-airing or Up-B Out of Shield.

Matador, Sonic has a hard time ledgeguarding Mario. Spring gimping is useless against Mario, and Mario's Up-B has ridiculous priority. Not something Sonic wants to challenge most of the time. Not that Mario has an easy time ledgeguarding Sonic, but he does%2

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edit:
I think I had a reply last night but most of it somehow everything past this point disappeared`.`;

anyway i think this is basically all of it in a nutshell, most of it is true, sans Sonic not vertikilling, extra emphasis on Mario's U-smash > F-smash, and i lol@a2zomg still relying on "_____ said this!"

and at the end, I said that aerial Mario (constantly jumping) should be troublesome for Sonic, or that it's possible that I just don't have too much of an answer to aerial opponents (seeing as jumping Samus and floating Peach give me trouble as well), so IMO Mario has a slight advantage in this matchup, but not for the same reasons that most people are bringing up (...lol fireballs.), but because of his quick/generally lagless aerials with generally high priority.

Tenki said:

- SDI out of U-smash? It's about as easy as doing SDI out of Zelda's U-smash or MK's tornado. If you hit with the initial part of the U-smash, it will send people flying prematurely out of it regardless of DI. If done from a slide or any other way so that the initial hit misses, it's virtually inescapable.

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I haven't done any testing with quarter stick DI for Sonic's U-smash yet, but it's gotten me on the other side of rapid jabs, G&W's B-air, Pikachu and Bowser's D-smash, and Smart Bomb explosions. Not to mention above MK's Mach Tornado occasionally.

I don't have time to test that right now, so anyone else up to confirming what SDI can do against Sonic's U-smash?

I just finished matches with both Tenki and darkNES. Both are ridiculously good Sonics with very different playstyles.

vs Tenki:

I had to cut these short due to domestic complications, but suffice it to say that out of the 5 Mario vs Sonic matches we played, I can pretty much conclude that the matchup isn't adv. Mario. Fireballs are too easily powershielded by Sonic to control the match like they should in theory. That hop during Sonic's sideB that allows him to go through fireballs also punishes the ending lag of it even if done from a distance because of how quickly Sonic can capitalize off of the lag. The damage you'd eat often isn't worth it either. I don't find approach for Sonic a problem at all.

Though Sonic's movement speed can easily help him land a pivotted Fsmash, Sonic's KO power is definitely a problem, even unstaled. I honestly don't believe I would've won any of the matches if I wasn't KOing Sonic at near 80% from an Fsmash.

I find that edgeguarding is severely hampered in this matchup, but still semi-effective against Sonic. Fludd mostly works when Sonic recovers lower because he cannot sweetspot his upB, so it'd at least give you time enough to get close enough to land an aerial of Usmash during the Fludd. Caping Sonic's sideB recovery doesn't gimp him, but makes his recovery a little more restricted and predictable. More often than not, however, it isn't worth it. Sonic can gimp Mario much easier than vice versa.

vs DarkNES:

I got to play many more matches against DarkNES than against Tenki, so I got a much better analysis of his Sonic. It seemed that he used more tactics better suited for fighting Mario overall, and made the matchup even more difficult to pull a victory.

His more frequent use of tilts made approach (even Bair WoPs, and spaced Nairs) very difficult. He also powershielded fireballs and put me in terrible positions for Dthrow techchasing. Comboing was near impossible because of his upB, though I find that the predictable Dair trajectory afterward made for pretty decent punishing even though it autocancels. Grounded, I got *****. In the air, I was able to gain some headway, and string together a few combos. Sonic's Bair also screwed approach because of its priority and range.

Again, I only think I won at all ver DarkNES because of how easy it is to KO Sonic with an up-angled Fsmash. Actually landing it was difficult and risky because of the ending lag, but it KOs at 90% unstaled on average; around 80% from the edge.

I believe even more firmly that the matchup is 50:50.

I just played a good sonic today.And boy do you know how hard it is land a attack on sonic :/ Espically with a upb to a Dair 0 lag :/ I underestimate his combo ability tho, he does have it. Most definitly a 50 50 matchup

This makes me want to play Tenki and DarkNES sometime. I want to see if they're a lot better than the Sonics I play. Honestly I've actually lost this matchup a few times, but I have always felt that mainly happened because I didn't know Sonic's moveset in the past.

I actually fought Darknes in person. I have to say the match up is most likely even.

Greenstreet said:

yeh it does but by the time it comes out u have already received 2 hits from an u-air. u are better off using your nair.

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Your now assuming a scenario, the dair animation is quick, pretty much in general it could go either ways assuming how good both players are. In general though, its something sonic mainers should obviously watch out for...

Matador said:

I just finished matches with both Tenki and darkNES. Both are ridiculously good Sonics with very different playstyles.

vs Tenki:

I had to cut these short due to domestic complications, but suffice it to say that out of the 5 Mario vs Sonic matches we played, I can pretty much conclude that the matchup isn't adv. Mario. Fireballs are too easily powershielded by Sonic to control the match like they should in theory. That hop during Sonic's sideB that allows him to go through fireballs also punishes the ending lag of it even if done from a distance because of how quickly Sonic can capitalize off of the lag. The damage you'd eat often isn't worth it either. I don't find approach for Sonic a problem at all.

Though Sonic's movement speed can easily help him land a pivotted Fsmash, Sonic's KO power is definitely a problem, even unstaled. I honestly don't believe I would've won any of the matches if I wasn't KOing Sonic at near 80% from an Fsmash.

I find that edgeguarding is severely hampered in this matchup, but still semi-effective against Sonic. Fludd mostly works when Sonic recovers lower because he cannot sweetspot his upB, so it'd at least give you time enough to get close enough to land an aerial of Usmash during the Fludd. Caping Sonic's sideB recovery doesn't gimp him, but makes his recovery a little more restricted and predictable. More often than not, however, it isn't worth it. Sonic can gimp Mario much easier than vice versa.

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@ bold 1: I don't remember dying that early unless I was by the edge. However, just a random tip, but if you know that Sonic is going to be charging a down-B, use a kill move. He has to hold down to charge it, and many people know that downwards DI makes you die easier off the sides XD. Also, I believe your U-smash kills were the most useful/significant (They were your most common finishing move I think XD)

@ bold 2: I don't remember you actually landing FLUDD when I used up-B, and when I recovered low, I usually did side-B>hop or spring > walljump to get to the edge, and your FLUDD was usually stopped by the ledge lol. Anyway, if you used FLUDD on Sonic's spring jump, he could either F-air and clang with the water (? works sometimes) or just airdodge.

I also don't remember getting caped out of side-B, but ok lol.

EDIT

A2ZOMG said:

This makes me want to play Tenki and DarkNES sometime. I want to see if they're a lot better than the Sonics I play. Honestly I've actually lost this matchup a few times, but I have always felt that mainly happened because I didn't know Sonic's moveset in the past.

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Actually, I remember a while back, I saw you post some videos of yourself somewhere. I found some vids (either from your links, or via 'related videos') of you vs a Sonic player. I went to the Sonic video thread and asked if they wanted to add those vids to the main thread and the general reaction was ... well, let these speak for themselves

TwinkleToes said:

Tenki don't post that crap... that Sonic was awful. He was fast-falling his short hopped fairs and from the look of things he didn't know how to use any of Sonic's b moves except for his spring. And even that was poorly utilized.

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Anthinus said:

*yawn* I almost fell asleep with that mario vs sonic first match... He is not using the speed, bad Fairs... Needs to improve a LOT... Can't see the others matches and can't Upload more matches today either(sorry, I'll do it tomorrow) cause JanuS is forcing me to play NOW!

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Tenki said:

I also don't remember getting caped out of side-B, but ok lol.

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My have been DarkNES then. Basically just saying that it doesn't hurt to go for the cape since it has more priority and sort of screws up Sonic's approach and possibly making him vulnerable if he doesn't catch the reverse quick enough.

Tenki said:

Actually, I remember a while back, I saw you post some videos of yourself somewhere. I found some vids (either from your links, or via 'related videos') of you vs a Sonic player. I went to the Sonic video thread and asked if they wanted to add those vids to the main thread and the general reaction was ... well, let these speak for themselves

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I haven't recorded any of my ONLINE Mario vs Sonic matches. The people I play online are a lot better than the friend I played in real life a while ago.

Narx got owned by me almost every matchup the time I played him because he was having a bad day, so I don't count those matchups at all.

Man sonic makes it look like mario LAGGS

My general strategy against Mario:

Spin Shot against fireball spam, or run away between moves. I don't have a problem simply running away, and my spinshot and spring in combination will let me manuver in the air enough to escape traps like that. Plus I know that if I need to, side B will eat fireballs.

Bait Aerials and punish on lag, while looking for FSmash

Look for Jab>DSmash. They love this. I can see why, its good.

Dash Dance just out side of FSmash Range to provoke mario. With Dash dance pivot that Sonic has, he can control the ground very well against mario, and mario is forced to guess when he will be nearby and either Smash or nair forward in hopes to tag him like that.

Dair Spike him before he can UpB safely. Still its sometimes hard to gimp mario if I wait too long, because of SJP.

Use tilts often up close.
------------------

Overall I thnk the matchup is equal, but very dependant on how much the match is on ground or in the air. Sonic can control the ground against Mario, all Mario can do to stop it is fireball spam, which can be avoided and punished in between the moves if Sonic is aware. But if Sonic is reckless and runs in without a setup, then mario's air moves will beat him out.

I've had esperience against Boss and a few marios from school, so i have the background to back up this strat.

Why revive an old thread?

BO X7 said:

Why revive an old thread?

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And say exactly the same thing they did. All he did was revive the thread to agree with them, lmao.

Seriously, this is stupid. Stop reviving dead threads.