Boxob
Smash Champion
Dash attack, I call a 55:45, In Boxob's favor.
Really.
Really.
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
They can't interupt it with shield breaker. You can spotdodge/roll on reaction to the shield breaker, as long as you're actually looking for it (or just have fast reactions.)
The Ken combo is not a legitimate combo. You can just airdodge out of it.
Didn't you read the part where I said to look for pauses in his DB. Do you even know the timing for that move? It has a fairly large window between being able to continue the dancing blade...and being able to stop.
If they up B early they stage spike you and end up high above the ledge. Then they just drift foward and grab it. It's not like Marth falls straight down after his up B.
Just for the sake of explaining, this is how the DB mixup works.Terios said:
They hit your shield with the first hit of dancing blade. They look closely for a roll or spotdodge. If you roll, they do not do the second hit of the dancing blade, so they are safe by the time your roll is over (if you roll behind them they turn around and DB you at the end of your roll). If you spotdodge, they continue the DB combo and hit you when it ends. If you just shield they either
A-Continue the DB combo to try to get you to roll or spotdodge. If you haven't moved by the third hit they try the third hit down and stop hoping that you'll attempt a shield grab (and whiff because Marth reels back) or they continue to the fourth hit down hoping for a shield stab.
B-Stop the combo and use Marth's anti shield options (grab, shieldbreaker, d-tilt trap, retreating fair, ect.) This is honestly the option you want them going for, as it's the least likely to damage you, as long as you are watching out for grabs and...shieldbreaker.
And yeah, I definately agree with 60:40, or even 65:35 (if the Marth plays really patiently and campy, it can be a hard matchup).
And I know it sounds like I'm complaining a lot, but I don't like it when people use bad Marths as examples, just like I don't like it when people use bad Sonics as examples. You'd be suprised how many people play Marth badly.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
@ dark sonic
This arguememt is getting stupid ur talking as if every marth plays the same. I'm just saying open ur eyes there are different players out there and if a marth up b's early they will probally be too far away from the stage mostly. They almost half to up b normal time. Marth can float horizontally much at all after up b. But some might do as you speak its up bing early really its just up bing higher than normal not early.
And yes they can throw in a shield breaker after frist hit my bad for saying interuption cuz its not really but still. The ken combo IS NOT EASY AT ALL to air dodge out of, u must play someone with f'ed up timing in order to get out of it. But like I said every marths different and its kind irrelavent to sonic cause of his recovery.
And yea I kno the timing for DB but most marths I see play pro go straight through to what their gonna do so you wont have time to react because, down has a random moment everyonce and awhile where it will poke shields. And they like u said time it to trick u, so my point remains roll the hell outta there...
This arguememt is getting stupid ur talking as if every marth plays the same. I'm just saying open ur eyes there are different players out there and if a marth up b's early they will probally be too far away from the stage mostly. They almost half to up b normal time. Marth can float horizontally much at all after up b. But some might do as you speak its up bing early really its just up bing higher than normal not early.
And yes they can throw in a shield breaker after frist hit my bad for saying interuption cuz its not really but still. The ken combo IS NOT EASY AT ALL to air dodge out of, u must play someone with f'ed up timing in order to get out of it. But like I said every marths different and its kind irrelavent to sonic cause of his recovery.
And yea I kno the timing for DB but most marths I see play pro go straight through to what their gonna do so you wont have time to react because, down has a random moment everyonce and awhile where it will poke shields. And they like u said time it to trick u, so my point remains roll the hell outta there...
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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I'm guessing you're talking about trying to gimp Marth offstage.
Although it's true that you can mess with him when he's too far away to safetly Dolphin Slash, you'll only be messing with his sword in your face while he nairs or fairs.
Although it's true that you can mess with him when he's too far away to safetly Dolphin Slash, you'll only be messing with his sword in your face while he nairs or fairs.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Browny
Smash Hater
So i heard Blue makes short work of marths (may not necessarily be good ones lol 
) at tourney level. need to get him in here imo
) at tourney level. need to get him in here imo
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Up Bing early means up Bing at you rather than waiting to try and sweetspot. It's actually what most good Marths do, as long as they're close enough to actually get to the ledge aftewards.
Now you're just being rediculous. This is very easy to avoid, as long as you are actually paying attention to the Marth's timing on his DB. It's pretty obvious that not only has he ended his DB by then, but then you can even react to the shield breaker's startup lag. DB->Shieldbreaker is just a mixup that they throw in once in a while hoping that you're not paying attention.
It is very easy to airdodge out of. Hell, you can just DI out of the dairs range and not even have to airdodge after the fair
That's called shield stabbing. And I covered that. After they've done the third hit you get to roll away or behind them for free, so you shouldn't be attempting to shield the fourth hit. And if you are unfortunate enough to have missed your chance to roll with absolutely no punishment, you can still angle your shield down to prevent the shield stabbing, and then get a free tilt or a grab (you'll have to move foward to get the grab if they've spaced the last hit)
And rolling away will not always be the best option. If they do only the first hit, and you roll away, they have time to dash foward and do another DB, forcing you to shield or spotdodge after your roll, and essentially reseting the situation closer to the edge.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Ok fine Dark Sonic all Marths play exactly the same you kno everyones play style.
Honestly people dont listen to either of our advise just space urself nicely and adjust to them and play smartly.
That ends this stupid arguement. Dark Sonic abviously has god reflexes and never gets fooled. Or DB frist hit to SB takes like hrs to come out... but yea just follow simple things dont do anything stupid I've beaten my fair share of good marths with Sonic when I mained him.
Rememeber folks not all Marths play the same there are some general similarties but probally not too many.
Honestly people dont listen to either of our advise just space urself nicely and adjust to them and play smartly.
That ends this stupid arguement. Dark Sonic abviously has god reflexes and never gets fooled. Or DB frist hit to SB takes like hrs to come out... but yea just follow simple things dont do anything stupid I've beaten my fair share of good marths with Sonic when I mained him.
Rememeber folks not all Marths play the same there are some general similarties but probally not too many.
Umby
Smash Master
If you get hit by DB 1st Hit-> Shield Breaker, something is probably wrong with your reflexes.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Not nessicarly Umby.
Its just to open ur eyes that this maybe used and its dangerous thats all.
Its just to open ur eyes that this maybe used and its dangerous thats all.
Umby
Smash Master
It's highly unlikely. You're more likely to encounter Side B -> Dolphin Slash/Grab/SH Fair.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Marths dont do that too much any more >_>... forget it...nvm I have found Sonic boards problem some of yall are horrible at taking advise.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^That's because you give bad and outdated advice. If you get hit by side B->Shieldbreaker it's because you have bad reflexes. As in, the average player can spotdodge that on reaction...because it's simply not that fast to begin with.
What I'm talking about are staples to Marth's metagame. The kind of things that most Marth players actually do. They do it because quite frankly most characters are unable to punish it when spaced correctly. They up B early because it's better than just taking the hit and dying. They poke you with d-tilt because they have the frame advantage. They bait spotdodges with side B because it hits through it, but with very little risk to themselves. These are things that work, and things that you'll constantly run into when fighting good Marths. Yes, Marths will have different playstyles, but all playstyles are based on Marth's better moves (fair, d-tilt, f-tilt, side B, up B). The different playstyles stem from how much they use these specific moves, and how much they incorporate Marth's other moves (he doesn't really have "bad" moves, it's just that these are better) into their gameplay. You'll fight ground based approachers, airbased approachers, fair campers, d-tilt campers, Marths who use side B extremely aggressively, you name it. But these are the moves that work the best and the ones that you'll run into the most. And it's our job to do our best to deal with these highly effective strategies, and find weaknesses in them (like getting out for free on the third hit of DB with no chance of Marth following up. I believe you can get out for free after the second hit as well, and even roll behind him before he gets out of lag).
What I'm talking about are staples to Marth's metagame. The kind of things that most Marth players actually do. They do it because quite frankly most characters are unable to punish it when spaced correctly. They up B early because it's better than just taking the hit and dying. They poke you with d-tilt because they have the frame advantage. They bait spotdodges with side B because it hits through it, but with very little risk to themselves. These are things that work, and things that you'll constantly run into when fighting good Marths. Yes, Marths will have different playstyles, but all playstyles are based on Marth's better moves (fair, d-tilt, f-tilt, side B, up B). The different playstyles stem from how much they use these specific moves, and how much they incorporate Marth's other moves (he doesn't really have "bad" moves, it's just that these are better) into their gameplay. You'll fight ground based approachers, airbased approachers, fair campers, d-tilt campers, Marths who use side B extremely aggressively, you name it. But these are the moves that work the best and the ones that you'll run into the most. And it's our job to do our best to deal with these highly effective strategies, and find weaknesses in them (like getting out for free on the third hit of DB with no chance of Marth following up. I believe you can get out for free after the second hit as well, and even roll behind him before he gets out of lag).
iRjOn
Smash Lord
1 no I do not have bad refelexes no one is perfect everyone can get hit by something. Play some pro Marths in GA they do this and you will get hit by one outta like the 3.
All are based on them, but you dont seem to get in different ways they are based on those moves all over the country. I would imply, Oh yea Dark Sonic has a point (sometimes) but look out if its done like this.
But no u'll just slap it b4 u play someone like it and beat you cuz u couldnt react.
Yall are Sonic mains yall should kno above anything about some mysterious getting underestimated. No one is perfect I'd dodge shield breakers from DB too but I'd get hit atleast once with it.
This advise isn't out dated go out play some marths you'll see. Trust me the last Marth I play seriously was atleast 1 month ago their meta game has not developed that far that short.
Dont knock advise always take it even if you kno it take it. Its the curtious thing to do.
I take advise I kno almost every day.
The way I said Marths play I personally have encountered quite a few lately. Before 1 month ago a course.
All are based on them, but you dont seem to get in different ways they are based on those moves all over the country. I would imply, Oh yea Dark Sonic has a point (sometimes) but look out if its done like this.
But no u'll just slap it b4 u play someone like it and beat you cuz u couldnt react.
Yall are Sonic mains yall should kno above anything about some mysterious getting underestimated. No one is perfect I'd dodge shield breakers from DB too but I'd get hit atleast once with it.
This advise isn't out dated go out play some marths you'll see. Trust me the last Marth I play seriously was atleast 1 month ago their meta game has not developed that far that short.
Dont knock advise always take it even if you kno it take it. Its the curtious thing to do.
I take advise I kno almost every day.
The way I said Marths play I personally have encountered quite a few lately. Before 1 month ago a course.
Browny
Smash Hater
omg, come back when you can put an argument into understandable english first please.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Point out my mistake of use these words of english Mr...
Umby
Smash Master
lol @ pro Marths in Georgia.
I'm more worried about SH Fair/Retreating Bair -> Shield Breaker.
I'm more worried about SH Fair/Retreating Bair -> Shield Breaker.
Why are you guys even discussing his shield breaker? You have a lot of other things you have to worry about.
Umby
Smash Master
SH Double fair? That crap doesn't work anymore and if a marth uses that he's asking to be punished.
Umby
Smash Master
I dunno. I advance the first one and retreat the second one, and it generally goes unpunished so long as my spacing is on point.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Yay a Marth arives
Will you explain your out look on this match up for them plz.
I was think of going to get a Marth but you came anyway.
I would help Sonic boards be less random.
Yay me post 100? or do I care...
Will you explain your out look on this match up for them plz.
I was think of going to get a Marth but you came anyway.
I would help Sonic boards be less random.
Yay me post 100? or do I care...
Umby
Smash Master
lol Marth is my secondary, but I don't play Marth vs Sonic at all. I will offer my two cents before Steel2nd posts anyway!
Dtilt can force Sonic into the air, unless SDR clang cancels, in which case Marth can jab before Sonic ftilts. If it does force him in the air, ftilt/utilt bats him away.
Fair seems to be an important tool in this match. Spaced correctly, it can be hard to punish, and in a defensive position forces the opponent to make the correct decisions before approaching. IMO, the main thing is that it can either lead into another fair or shield breaker. That means SH Double Fair can put up enough shield pressure so that using SH Fair -> Shield Breaker as your next move could become unexpected.
Dancing Blade is the beast move it is in every matchup.
I don't see Dolphin Slash OOS punishing Sonic for anything except maybe his Jab or Nair.
Sonic's unpredictability and ground mobility takes Counter partially out of Marth's moveset.
Walking with Marth probably shuts down Sonic. No lie. Marth walking makes spacing and perfect shielding attacks so much easier it's rediculous. If it weren't for the fact that you could hold the charge on SD and SC, I'm pretty sure a competent Marth could wall you with ftilts just from walking or fanning with Jab.
It is of my current opinion that Sonic > Marth offstage, just from a quick glance.
I really should try playing this match up more.
Dtilt can force Sonic into the air, unless SDR clang cancels, in which case Marth can jab before Sonic ftilts. If it does force him in the air, ftilt/utilt bats him away.
Fair seems to be an important tool in this match. Spaced correctly, it can be hard to punish, and in a defensive position forces the opponent to make the correct decisions before approaching. IMO, the main thing is that it can either lead into another fair or shield breaker. That means SH Double Fair can put up enough shield pressure so that using SH Fair -> Shield Breaker as your next move could become unexpected.
Dancing Blade is the beast move it is in every matchup.
I don't see Dolphin Slash OOS punishing Sonic for anything except maybe his Jab or Nair.
Sonic's unpredictability and ground mobility takes Counter partially out of Marth's moveset.
Walking with Marth probably shuts down Sonic. No lie. Marth walking makes spacing and perfect shielding attacks so much easier it's rediculous. If it weren't for the fact that you could hold the charge on SD and SC, I'm pretty sure a competent Marth could wall you with ftilts just from walking or fanning with Jab.
It is of my current opinion that Sonic > Marth offstage, just from a quick glance.
I really should try playing this match up more.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I shall highlight the grammar errors.
its too slow, easily avoided and punishable.
You also need 3 commas in the first paragraph I quoted.
YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOW!
You need at least 2 commas in the aforementioned paragraph.
.
Ask Emblem Lord.
i played Emblemd Lord and he never tries a sideB~shieldbreaker. Why?
its too slow, easily avoided and punishable.
You also need 3 commas in the first paragraph I quoted.
English courses help.
It is you all not yall. You need several commas and you also need better sentence structure.
YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOW!
Never happens when you are competent.
You need at least 2 commas in the aforementioned paragraph.
.
Ask Emblem Lord.
Don't care for your anecdotal evidence btw.
Oh, that's perfectly fine. I thought you meant the noob approach of two fairs going forwards.
Anyway, Marth is a faster attacker and has a lot more priority compared to sonic to go along with his range. Seriously, once Marth closes in on him he can just do his regular zoning with tilts and fairs while punishing with dancing blade and Sonic can't really do much about it with his given tools.
Honestly, Marth will probably just camp Sonic with his sword. Sonic's speed will allow him to get inside sometimes but if Marth stays behind his sword I can't really see what sonic can do tbh.
It's probably 70:30 or 65:35.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Well, it could also be used against ASC approaches (but fair works better anyway) and can be used to beat SDR if your too close for comfort.
Agrees with Steel2nd. 65:35
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Thanx for quoting my errors but its just common computer lingo IMO. XD just how I type sometimes.
People understand it mostly so hell. But yes thanx for quoting it.
And IDC if u dont want my evidence...dont read or dont take it. Its there for those whom care to see different possiblities.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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I'd be an advocate of 35:65 in Marth's favour too.
It could be 30:70. I can't see where Sonic's going to consistantly rack up damage, anywhere.
Right, stages?
Final Destination seems like a candidate.
It could be 30:70. I can't see where Sonic's going to consistantly rack up damage, anywhere.
Right, stages?
Final Destination seems like a candidate.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Yea that sounds kinda reasonable maybe or it might be 40:60 depending on the players.
FD is everyone right? IDK I might be wrong.
But is say Smasville is good.
FD is everyone right? IDK I might be wrong.
But is say Smasville is good.
Depending on the players?
Match ups are determined by two top level players of equal skill.
iRjOn
Smash Lord
true true u got me. 35:65 I say then.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
What about counter pick stages? Castle Siege doesn't seem like it would be too bad (well, the first stage would be troublesome, but all the transformations give you plenty of room to avoid Marth's pressure game).
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Lylat Cruise? I find that Sonic is pretty much beast against anyone on this stage.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^I heard Marths don't like that stage. lol
But seriously, they'll probably just ban it because it's a bad Marth level to begin with.
But seriously, they'll probably just ban it because it's a bad Marth level to begin with.
Chis
Finally a legend
Can Marth still reverse his UpB?
Lylat is a great level for Marth. And yes marth can up b reverse out of shield with 5 invincibility frames, it's too broken.
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What advantages do Marth's have on Lylat? Maybe I just played a scrubby Marth but it seemed like he didn't play any better, possibly worse. The edges usually screw over Marth's recovery because they move and Marth has a set recovery trajectory.
Marth controls the platforms, why do you think Battlefield is such a great stage for Marth? The edges can be troublesome, but not to the extent that you are exaggerating it to be.
Umby
Smash Master
If we're done with Marth, can we start talking about Suzumiya Haruhi now?