Match-Up Discussion #27! Luigi

Steel · Oct 3, 2008

Luigi

Go ^_^

hippiedude92 · Oct 4, 2008

Spacing spacing spacing and dont get close to luigi or else you'll get shoryuken'd possibly late 40%s or early 50%s. Camping/Zoning is nifty too. possibly 30:70 in marths favor or at best 35:65

Emblem Lord · Oct 4, 2008

This might actually be worse then the Mario match-up since Luigi can't gimp like Mario can.

Anyway, the match-up is straight forward. Zone him and try not to get comboed. Fireballs are easily swatted or shielded.

65/35 at best and 70/30 at worst.

Megavitamins · Oct 4, 2008

Jab -> Shoryuken is stupid, you can die at extremely low percentages from this. Luigi really does'nt have too much on Marth I think, just zone and thats pretty much it.

ZHMT · Oct 4, 2008

Luigi has actual combos, like Kirby. Watch out for dthrow to utilt combos and most aerials combo together at certain percents. All you need to do is camp with fairs and dtilts...standard stuff. You shouldnt be worrying about Luigi's up b if you space correctly. You out prioritize basically all his moves with fair and db. His jab is quick, but outranged by your tilts.

You can gimp him with a simple fair as well. He cannot do much to edgeguard you so you have your advantage there.

65:35 Marth imo.

Zankoku · Oct 4, 2008

Luigi is too slippery and floaty to approach Marth with any kind of consistency or velocity that would allow him to bypass the Falchion's range. All that nuts priority that Luigi has normally really doesn't help against a sword.

ZHMT · Oct 4, 2008

Ankoku said:
Luigi is too slippery and floaty to approach Marth with any kind of consistency or velocity that would allow him to bypass the Falchion's range. All that nuts priority that Luigi has normally really doesn't help against a sword.

Speaking of which, does luigi's dsmash have incredible shield pushback? Or is it just me. It can mess up your spacing, so its good to note.

hippiedude92 · Oct 4, 2008

zelda_master_timmy said:
Speaking of which, does luigi's dsmash have incredible shield pushback? Or is it just me. It can mess up your spacing, so its good to note.

Only when luigi's walking, Dsmash's range increases abit. But Dtilt walls and ftilts still **** it.
Also just fyi, luigi's still easy to gimp just as mario's or probably even worst. Fair > Green missle (watch out for misfire), Dair spike > rising tornado (treat it like Mk's wh0renado)

A2ZOMG · Oct 4, 2008

zelda_master_timmy said:
Speaking of which, does luigi's dsmash have incredible shield pushback? Or is it just me. It can mess up your spacing, so its good to note.

I dunno, it does have more vertical knockback than Mario's, but it has less range. I don't remember if Luigi slides a mile away when he hits stuff.

Speaking of less range, Luigi's Smashes ALL have less range than Mario's. U-smash, the difference is the slightest.

LuigiKing · Oct 4, 2008

I think this one is probably 60:40 marth's favor... I hate to say it but marth's fair and ftilt are seriously all he needs in this one. Luigi just doesn't have a way to get close to marth, and fireballs really shouldnt be a threat if the marth is decent. Point being, don't get misfired and you're good.

Zankoku · Oct 4, 2008

60:40 is being too lenient on Luigi. It's at least 65:35.

grandmaster192 · Oct 4, 2008

Something to keep in mind:

Don't get too greedy and jump into him when he's in the air. He has some nasty lingering hit boxes and you WILL get hit. It only looks as though you can **** him in air because no disjointed hit aerials, and that's what I thought at first. Don't get caught off gaurd by that.

feardragon64 · Oct 4, 2008

65:35 for everything said above, his recovery is 500 times better than mario's, and he has up+b which will ko Marth at ridiculous %'s if he somehow finds a way in at a high %.

Shaya · Oct 4, 2008

LuigiKing said:
I think this one is probably 60:40 marth's favor... I hate to say it but marth's fair and ftilt are seriously all he needs in this one. Luigi just doesn't have a way to get close to marth, and fireballs really shouldnt be a threat if the marth is decent. Point being, don't get misfired and you're good.

With such a fact in mind you're indicating the match up is 70:30 or worse.

3xSwords · Oct 4, 2008

Its also nice that if you space correctly the chances of getting shield grabbed are none b/c he slides so far even when in shield. The only thing you should be watching out for is the little post lag he has on his aerials, but your range > luigi.

65-35

Pierce7d · Oct 4, 2008

Luigi's range fails to Marth, and he can't punish for his life. Luigi also can't use any form of SH approaches at all. In fact, Luigi's most reliable approach is ground tornado, and if you get in the habit of treating that like MK's tornado and hitting counter, he really can't get in. Unlike Mario, his fireballs are an anti-air weapon, so they are super useless vs Marth. He doesn't have Cape or FLUDD for edgeguardin tricks, and as much range as he can get with side B, down B and up B, all of them are easy to swat. IMO, if he Green Missles you from off stage, RARDair him for a stock. If he tornadoes, if you can meteor smash him, do it, if not, wait till it's over and perhaps attempt a footstool, if he's already used his second jump (you'd have to suck tremendously to get hit by a critical Fire Uppercut while attempting a footstool and Luigi has no second jump). Dair him outta his UpB or hog the ledge after that. Swat him back off with Fairs and Bairs appropriately, to rob him of options and make him easier to gimp.

I stay this is 70:30 Marth's favor. Luigi might have awesome finishers (his Fsmash has to K.O. us at like 80% or something), but has less tools (really his only tool is ground tornado to get in, and once you're watching out for this, it's not great, cause DS OOS is still ****) and he is easier to keep out, since he slides all the time. Even if he shields he can't punish. Marth has excellent punishers. Actually, thinking about it more, I want to call it 75:25 Marth. I would definitely say Marth is a hard counter vs. Luigi.

Pr0phetic · Oct 4, 2008

65:35 Marth, due to easy walling and Luigi's inconsistency. However, watch out for a good Luigi's mindgames, they will be looking to use that punch.

and, don't fall for his taunt -_-

cutter · Oct 4, 2008

Luigi doesn't even have great priority to begin with. All of his attacks except for his fireball (which is a ****ty projectile to begin with) extend his hurtbox. It's no surprise Luigi's worst matchups are DDD, MK, G&W and Marth.

magikguy · Oct 4, 2008

Rukkiko said:
don't fall for his taunt -_-

honestly who would ..

Swordplay · Oct 4, 2008

65:35

Its bassically mario with a few changes.

He has a move that can kill at low %'s Proper zoning negates this.

His recovery is WAY better than mario.

Luigi cannot gimp like mario.

A2ZOMG · Oct 4, 2008

Swordplay said:
His recovery is WAY better than mario.

I'll point out just because it's better, doesn't mean it's significantly harder for Marth to gimp. He gains a lot of distance, but a lot of the techniques he needs to use to gain distance have a lot of active attack frames, and are easily outprioritized by Marth's sword. The main one you need to intercept is his DJ Rising Tornado and then he's pretty much gone unless he gets a misfire, which you could counter or F-air away.

Matador · Oct 4, 2008

Pierce7d said:
Actually, thinking about it more, I want to call it 75:25 Marth. I would definitely say Marth is a hard counter vs. Luigi.

Honestly, think about what you're saying here. Is range and priority and whatnot REALLY that important? Luigi is a combo demon especially from below and KOs Marth consistently at 80% from upangled Fsmash. Getting in is a problem, but is it really THAT big of a game changer? In melee, yes. In Brawl, doubtful. Luigi is a better punisher in this matchup than Marth, simply because his combo game and KO power are top notch.

Marth can keep Luigi out, but are we really going to assume that throughout the entire game, Luigi won't get in? He shouldn't if a friggin robot were playing Marth, but that's not the case. We're weighing too heavily on range, and spacing and not enough on a real match. I'm sure the Sonics had a lot of fun here, since alot of their game consists of baiting and we're throwing things of that nature out the window.

Zankoku · Oct 4, 2008

At least Sonic had amazing ground speed. Slow Luigi is sloooooowwww.

Emblem Lord · Oct 4, 2008

75/25 is insane.

The Sonic's were pretty cool. All the character boards are cool when we invite them in.

And why wouldn't they be?

The Marth boards are calm, cool, concise, and collected. We analyze and go by facts and statistics. Nothing to argue about or get riled up about. We get things done quickly and efficiently. Weekly match-up threads?

lolz.

Maybe other character boards need a week.

Give us a day and we can knock out a match-up with ease.

cman · Oct 4, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
75/25 is insane.

The Sonic's were pretty cool. All the character boards are cool when we invite them in.

And why wouldn't they be?

The Marth boards are calm, cool, concise, and collected. We analyze and go by facts and statistics. Nothing to argue about or get riled up about. We get things done quickly and efficiently. Weekly match-up threads?

lolz.

Maybe other character boards need a week.

Give us a day and we can knock out a match-up with ease.

75:25, in reality, is a very small difference from 70:30 in the same way that 55:45 is essentially still an even match-up. Maybe it seems like a big jump, but it really isn't. With that said, i would still say 75:25 is a bit too high.

Emblem Lord · Oct 4, 2008

5 points might not seem like alot, but it really does indicate a significant gap with each 5 point separation.

cman · Oct 4, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
5 points might seem like alot, but it really does indicate a significant gap with each 5 point separation.

Why is a 55:45 still considered to be an even match-up?

Emblem Lord · Oct 4, 2008

It shouldn't be. It's just that the advantage isn't huge. You still have a decent shot at winning a 55/45 match.

Realistically even in a 60/40 match, don't expect to come out on top at a tournament if you have to do 2 or 3 of those in a row. You will lose sooner or later.

Once you hit 65/35 you really won't be winning at all unless your opponent makes alot of punishable mistakes or you happen to be the better player.

Steel · Oct 4, 2008

So what is the final decision on this match up? Personally I feel it is 70:30, while pretty much every one else says 65:35 or worse.

Verdict?

hippiedude92 · Oct 4, 2008

I'd say around 70:30. I forgot what was Mario's though. And agreed with EL. 75:25 sounds too harsh :[

Matador · Oct 4, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
Any of you guys play online? I'd like to have at least an idea of how a good Marth plays.

Everyone sucks online, an skill shouldn't be measured solely thru wifi. Common knownledge.

Things like edgeguarding tactics, KO percentages, and normal tendencies are what I generally look for. Wifi sucks, but it's reliable in just generally looking at a matchup. That's what why I want a few matches vs a decent Marth.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Oct 4, 2008

You cannot judge a Marth's sill with a wi-fi match. It just doesn't work, lag makes him so bad...

Emblem Lord · Oct 4, 2008

WTF!!!!

Who the **** made that qoute?

I did NOT say that.

I would NEVER say I WANT to play someone online.

WHAT THE ****?!?

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Oct 4, 2008

Why the hell would EL say that? EL doesn't want to play people online. He has a brain! Wait, I just insulted myself... But seriously, you cannot judge someones skill with wi-fi...

Zankoku · Oct 4, 2008

Quotelink points to:

Emblem Lord said:
75/25 is insane.

The Sonic's were pretty cool. All the character boards are cool when we invite them in.

And why wouldn't they be?

The Marth boards are calm, cool, concise, and collected. We analyze and go by facts and statistics. Nothing to argue about or get riled up about. We get things done quickly and efficiently. Weekly match-up threads?

lolz.

Maybe other character boards need a week.

Give us a day and we can knock out a match-up with ease.

feardragon64 · Oct 5, 2008

Ankoku said:
Quotelink points to:

lol I was going to say this as well....

Are you that bored that you'll go around misquoting people?

SwastikaPyle · Oct 5, 2008

You guys really sound like you're overestimating how godly each Marth would be at spacing. Luigi is going to get inside at some point during the match, and when he does it will make you cry. You may be able to out-range all his attacks 3 or 4 times in a row, then the moment will come when he air-dodges inside, and suddenly, "Wow, did I really just get 65% from that one jump full of aerials?"

Also, where did this nonsense come from that Mario gimps better than Wigi?

Shaya · Oct 5, 2008

Swastika, that doesn't matter.

It's all about facts here, not game strategy.

Guess what Marth can do to 'Luigi' if Luigi misses an up b?
Fully charged shieldbreaker that does 28% and will kill him if he's above 40%. UH OH.

Situational is crap.

Luigi's damage racking abilities is not as reliable or consistant as Marth's against Luigi in this match up.

SwastikaPyle · Oct 5, 2008

"Guess what Marth can do to 'Luigi' if Luigi misses an up b?
Fully charged shieldbreaker that does 28% and will kill him if he's above 40%. UH OH."

Is this supposed to be one of those 'absurd situational examples' or do you really think Luigi is helpless after up B and is going to be hit by a fully charged shieldbreaker?

The idea of Luigi doing 60% when he gets through Marth's guard is not 'situational'. That is fact.

I believe it's absurd to debate with the notion that Marth players won't make any mistakes. At some point, an F-smash will be spot dodged or a side+b combo will be shielded, and Wigi will get his chance to hit.

I also think you guys may be really underestimating his fireball. It's no laser but it still works great against aerial spammers.

Shaya · Oct 5, 2008

Child:

All Luigi has going for this match up is sheer power in some of his moves and his recovery.

Everywhere else Marth dominates.
Range, speed, spacing, zoning and safety all goes to Marth.

Marth's Forward Smash tipper will kill Luigi at the 80-85% range (Fsmash tipper on Luigi at the centre of FD at 65%, no DI).

Fully charged tipped shieldbreaker will kill him at 60-65%. Around 70% for an untipped one.

Yet you wish to bring up killing power?

Marth's fsmash tipper is a killing move that won't be punished as severely as your Up B. Remember that.

Match-Up Discussion #27! Luigi

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