Weekly Match-up discussion 5: Metaknight

A basic overview of the advantages:
Metaknight

Faster
Less Laggy
Less start-up on most moves
Disjointed hitboxes
Better priority
Tornado...
Shuttle Loop...
Safe poking moves...
A nearly ungimpable recovery.


Ganondorf:

Hits like a Bus full of fat people
Some powerful early combos



A few questions that should be explored in this match-up (others may be added in the course of the discussion):

Like Marth... how do you fight him????

Pray that you don't die before you get him to 77% and into a flame choke > dash attack KO.

Nah, I'm just kidding. I'm about to call it a day, but before I go to bed, I just wanted to point out that dash attack is so sweet vs this little ball of fun. Not only can it kill at about 85%, but it also is a very consistent whorenado killer, and consistently killing whorenados is a rarity these days.

I've found that a good way to deal with MK is to throw my controller through the screen. It even stops his tornado!

A woP happy MK is always open for a good old spike. Seriously, it's almost crazy how easy it is to do it. Plus, like any heavyweight, Ganon's advantage is that he is, for lack of a better word, butt **** strong and MK is light. You just have to be more defensive in this fight.

Play someone else. Like maybe.....Metaknight....

Bad matchup. 8/2 in favor of MK. The only advantage you have is Flame Choke combos and the fact he dies at low percents. You have just a few attacks that beat the Nado, but it will still **** you since you can't do anything out of shield to it and because it just starts up too **** fast.

Counter-pick someone else. Seriously, it's better to have a 40% chance of winning than a 20% chance. There's almost no way Ganon can punish a smart MK if he's constantly poking you. Your recovery will get anally *****, you can't avoid it.

80/20 MetaKnight, for sure %)

You can kill him early, but you have at least to touch him before getting 3-stocked...

Ganoncide all stocks.

Twilight_Prince said:

I've found that a good way to deal with MK is to throw my controller through the screen. It even stops his tornado!

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LOL...out of all the ways to stop metaknight...that has to be one of the best..LOL

The "pick someone else" suggestions (though I know they are often in jest) do not help in any way. Let's talk about what we DO have going for us in this match. No s*** it's a nasty match-up, but it can be done, so let's have a go at figuring out HOW it might be done. Some of what I say below I already mentioned above, but it bears repeating:

1. Dash Attack: useful as anti-whorenado tactic. iDA can be used in combination with flamechoke for a low percentage kill. a decent approach option due to its swiftness and range.
2. Dair: can be used to get above whorenado and side+B approaches. can be used as "bait" and then buffered into fsmash, dtilt, ftilt, or jab (with proper spacing), though it is not a great approach in general against MK.
3. Aerial Flamechoke while MK is hanging on ledge: Mmac posted how you can aerial flamechoke while MK is on the ledge and out of invincibility frames for an instant kill. By no means reliable, and I've certainly never used it in game, but who knows, maybe it could happen, and everyone within a 100 mile radius would erupt in laughter. see: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195376
4. I'll add more to this list soon, but my head is hurting thinking about it. That's not an excuse or an admission of defeat as I actually have a good bit of MK experience (with promising results!) Check back later. I'll be going to my replays during dinner to find some more information.

i was playing my friends meta a little bit ago and a good way to kill at low percents is a forward smash out of a forward-b (this really only works if they roll toward the edge of the stage because there roll is shortened) but its a good way to kill really anyone. Make sure you stutter step it as well to get the most range out of it.

MK is going to try to rush you down constantly so short hopping away into a fair is a good mind game because it also spaces you away a bit and there is a good chance that he will run face first into it.

Only a brave brave man would face mk with ganon in a serious match though that **** is **** near imposable at times. You have to play turtle style and capitalize on every mistake that your opponent makes. When you get MK off stage i usually put my self out of shuttle loop range and time his get up with a f-smash to the face, another option is to put your self in shuttle loop range when hes holding onto the ledge and shield it, then grab him afterward when he comes back around.

No matter what you decide to do you have to be as safe as possible one mistake can send you off stage and from there your gonna be fighting for your life to get back on. This match up is stupid hard and can feel hopeless but i guarantee there is a way to win. As long as there is a 20% chance statistically of victory it's not all hopeless.

Realistically this match up is the whole reason to keep a strong secondary main no matter what character you are meta knight is a tough customer if your hell bent on playing Gannon in this match up the only thing you can really do is practice.

Obviously very tough match up for Ganon. It takes a very good Ganon player to take down a decent MK player. Most MK's will all out attack you which obviously puts you on the defensive, so being as evasive as possible and finding your openings is a key to victory.

From what people are saying, 80-20 to 85-15 seems like the concensus, most of us figured that out already.

Unless somebody figures out something to change this, discussion shift to what we actually have alright with everyone? Hyperstation's post was really good in that reguard.

First suggestion, counter-pick Yoshi's Island (pipes) if possible, the low ceiling makes thunderstorming kills easy at low percents and makes flamechock>dtilt a viable kill option at pretty low percents. Also it messes with MK's gimp game to no end and he's not good at getting kills off the top.

Ban Rainbow cruise... period. Just ban it, it's HORRIBLE for Ganondorf since his recovery (reletively speaking) sucks and MK's is amazing.

maby pick delfino for easy spikes

Speaking as a very experienced player who plays at the top level against amazing players... this is an impossible matchup. I have one of the top Ganons in the country and I have won against amazing players with him, but any MK with decent knowledge of the game will destroy you. Fair wrecks any approach you can imagine and once you are off the stage you're dead. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but what do you expect from a bottom tier character against the best character in the game?

I will say, however, that Ganon does fairly well against MK in teams as long as you have a partner who can deal damage against him. A good partner for Ganon against MK is G&W, Marth, Peach, and more. They rack up the damage, you side B to dash attack or catch them off guard with a dash attack.

LeeHarris said:

Speaking as a very experienced player who plays at the top level against amazing players... this is an impossible matchup. I have one of the top Ganons in the country and I have won against amazing players with him, but any MK with decent knowledge of the game will destroy you. Fair wrecks any approach you can imagine and once you are off the stage you're dead. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but what do you expect from a bottom tier character against the best character in the game?

I will say, however, that Ganon does fairly well against MK in teams as long as you have a partner who can deal damage against him. A good partner for Ganon against MK is G&W, Marth, Peach, and more. They rack up the damage, you side B to dash attack or catch them off guard with a dash attack.

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nah man your just telling it how it is no hard feelings

LeeHarris said:

Speaking as a very experienced player who plays at the top level against amazing players... this is an impossible matchup. I have one of the top Ganons in the country and I have won against amazing players with him, but any MK with decent knowledge of the game will destroy you. Fair wrecks any approach you can imagine and once you are off the stage you're dead. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but what do you expect from a bottom tier character against the best character in the game?

I will say, however, that Ganon does fairly well against MK in teams as long as you have a partner who can deal damage against him. A good partner for Ganon against MK is G&W, Marth, Peach, and more. They rack up the damage, you side B to dash attack or catch them off guard with a dash attack.

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Yeah, we've sort of figured this out already, we know the match-up is pretty much impossible.

But that doesn't mean we can't figure out how to play the best given what we have.

echos said:

maby pick delfino for easy spikes

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True, it's a lot harder to gimp recoveries because of how it changes, also a lot of the forms pretty much restrict gimp kills. Halberd too, but to a lesser extent.

Also, water advantages Ganondorf greatly (at least relatively speaking).

hyperstation said:

1. Dash Attack: useful as anti-whorenado tactic. iDA can be used in combination with flamechoke for a low percentage kill. a decent approach option due to its swiftness and range.
2. Dair: can be used to get above whorenado and side+B approaches. can be used as "bait" and then buffered into fsmash, dtilt, ftilt, or jab (with proper spacing), though it is not a great approach in general against MK.
3. Aerial Flamechoke while MK is hanging on ledge: Mmac posted how you can aerial flamechoke while MK is on the ledge and out of invincibility frames for an instant kill. By no means reliable, and I've certainly never used it in game, but who knows, maybe it could happen, and everyone within a 100 mile radius would erupt in laughter. see: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195376
4. I'll add more to this list soon, but my head is hurting thinking about it. That's not an excuse or an admission of defeat as I actually have a good bit of MK experience (with promising results!) Check back later. I'll be going to my replays during dinner to find some more information.

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Just adding abit more to this.

-SHFF Bair is actually a feasible approach and retreat against Metaknight. I was playing around and found SHFF actually allows Ganondorf to consistently connect a BAir against Metaknight as the hitbox lands onto his head.
-Full hopped lagless NAir into a UAir or DAir effectively restricts Metaknight's aerial options quite well.
-A well placed USmash actually outprioritizes most of what Metaknight can dish out.
-Buffering your jumps and recoveries with an UAir comes at no extra cost in lag and only serves to give you a chance to ward off Metaknight. I'm actually fairly sure this move beats out the attack part of the Shuttle Loop.
-All we ever talk about is blahblah Metaknight can chase you off the stage but people need to note Ganondorf has his advantages. Meta is a surprisingly easy target for the DAir spike if he doesn't do a high recovery and if he does he is extremely vulnerable to UAir.
-Reverse Tipman off the stage will piss the hell out of them to no extent when combined with Ganny's great edge game.
-Mix it up with BAir's which can kill as early as 60% at the edges on some stages.
-Wizkick cancel into DAir is actually a rather nasty obstacle too.
-Aggressive play once you get Meta off the stage actually isn't a bad idea, Ganon actually has the tools to chase him and deal with Meta's recoveries.

Shadow Nataku said:

Just adding abit more to this.

-SHFF Bair is actually a feasible approach and retreat against Metaknight. I was playing around and found SHFF actually allows Ganondorf to consistently connect a BAir against Metaknight as the hitbox lands onto his head.
-Full hopped lagless NAir into a UAir or DAir effectively restricts Metaknight's aerial options quite well.
-A well placed USmash actually outprioritizes most of what Metaknight can dish out.
-Buffering your jumps and recoveries with an UAir comes at no extra cost in lag and only serves to give you a chance to ward off Metaknight. I'm actually fairly sure this move beats out the attack part of the Shuttle Loop.
-All we ever talk about is blahblah Metaknight can chase you off the stage but people need to note Ganondorf has his advantages. Meta is a surprisingly easy target for the DAir spike if he doesn't do a high recovery and if he does he is extremely vulnerable to UAir.
-Reverse Tipman off the stage will piss the hell out of them to no extent when combined with Ganny's great edge game.
-Mix it up with BAir's which can kill as early as 60% at the edges on some stages.
-Wizkick cancel into DAir is actually a rather nasty obstacle too.
-Aggressive play once you get Meta off the stage actually isn't a bad idea, Ganon actually has the tools to chase him and deal with Meta's recoveries.

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good **** shadow

Shadow Nataku said:

Just adding abit more to this.

-SHFF Bair is actually a feasible approach and retreat against Metaknight. I was playing around and found SHFF actually allows Ganondorf to consistently connect a BAir against Metaknight as the hitbox lands onto his head.
-Full hopped lagless NAir into a UAir or DAir effectively restricts Metaknight's aerial options quite well.
-A well placed USmash actually outprioritizes most of what Metaknight can dish out.
-Buffering your jumps and recoveries with an UAir comes at no extra cost in lag and only serves to give you a chance to ward off Metaknight. I'm actually fairly sure this move beats out the attack part of the Shuttle Loop.
-All we ever talk about is blahblah Metaknight can chase you off the stage but people need to note Ganondorf has his advantages. Meta is a surprisingly easy target for the DAir spike if he doesn't do a high recovery and if he does he is extremely vulnerable to UAir.
-Reverse Tipman off the stage will piss the hell out of them to no extent when combined with Ganny's great edge game.
-Mix it up with BAir's which can kill as early as 60% at the edges on some stages.
-Wizkick cancel into DAir is actually a rather nasty obstacle too.
-Aggressive play once you get Meta off the stage actually isn't a bad idea, Ganon actually has the tools to chase him and deal with Meta's recoveries.

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The bits about bair are good to know.

Tipman is not a very good tactic against metaknight. Neither is a wizkick cancel to dair (or to anything). In fact, anything over the edge is really dangerous because two of meta's kill moves can happen as a recovery effort to get back on the stage. Shuttle loop is disgusting. It comes out way fast and can gimp ganon at really low percentages by slamming him into the side of the stage and knocking him back/down too low to recover. On recoveries, good metas use glide, which allows them to use the nasty glide attack, a powerful KO option. Furthermore, shuttle loop links into a glide seamlessly, so MK is getting a lot of bang for his buck, essentially able to link together a multiple KO hits if one fails.

No, you're options over the edge for meta are not as clear cut as you make them, and trust me, I wish they were. You're better off with close to the ledge dairs in series. Tipman has it's uses, but against someone who has 5 jumps, a glide, and shuttle loop, even a well placed tipman does little to stop him. No, you have to pound him to the depths of hell in order to guarantee a kill. Anytime you're even marginally beyond the ledge, if you're not significantly above the ledge you're placing yourself in a huge risk situation.

Ganon is going to have to get kills in this match through a combination of INTELLIGENT, low-risk, close to the ledge spikes and bairs/fairs, as well as kills off the top of the stage via iDA and dtilt.

Sorry if this is sobering, but it's the truth. It's better to know what you're able to do now rather than have it taught to you the hard way when you face a strong MK player...

LeeHarris said:

Speaking as a very experienced player who plays at the top level against amazing players... this is an impossible matchup. I have one of the top Ganons in the country and I have won against amazing players with him, but any MK with decent knowledge of the game will destroy you. Fair wrecks any approach you can imagine and once you are off the stage you're dead. I'm sorry to sound blunt, but what do you expect from a bottom tier character against the best character in the game?

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How depressing. =(

I will say, however, that Ganon does fairly well against MK in teams as long as you have a partner who can deal damage against him. A good partner for Ganon against MK is G&W, Marth, Peach, and more. They rack up the damage, you side B to dash attack or catch them off guard with a dash attack.

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Soooo, is the implication that Ganon is significantly better in teams?

hyperstation said:

Ganon is going to have to get kills in this match through a combination of INTELLIGENT, low-risk, close to the ledge spikes and bairs/fairs, as well as kills off the top of the stage via iDA and dtilt.

Sorry if this is sobering, but it's the truth. It's better to know what you're able to do now rather than have it taught to you the hard way when you face a strong MK player...

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No no its no problem, I'm pretty aware and you'recompletely right.

Though its just how I play personally I just throw it in maybe once in a match. Since as good as edge Thunderstorm is, it just gets repetitive and predictable after a while. Its simply a matter on mixing in something random now and again otherwise eventually your defense will crack.

However I'm adamant about the SHFF Bair and full hop NAir approach stuff, they do genuinely work well on the little blue tart. About the SHFF Bair an important note but if you do it correctly the lag animation will happen. However I can also confirm this will hit grounded short characters, I've tested it and I've connected spot on consistently.

F-Air is a b*tch for Ganon alright, but Ganon has a pretty solid defense around some of MKs approaches. F-Tilt, DA, and wizkick should all be used often but intelligently in this match up, as they all defend well against MKs air game. F-tilt can snuff f-air, DA can cut through it if timed correctly, and wizkick is just plain fast and destroys low level airdodges and short hops.

Make sure you're getting a good amount of gerudo in too. In this match up, gerudo gets you kills at 85% and can get you 50+% "strings of attacks. At early percents, a landed gerudo leads into d-tilt. After you land the d-tilt, MK is put into a tough position. Of course he can try to immediately attack but that just gives you shield grab. After the d-tilt you can follow up with another gerudo, dash attack, wizkick, or grab. At 0% or around there I just like to use another gerudo as it resets and I get another d-tilt. After that second d-tilt it puts him up higher, which actually puts him at a little bit more of a disadvantage. Just wait, you can punish any attempt he makes. He airdodges, you can gerudo, DA, wizkick, or even u-air. He attacks and you have the same options. He DIs or does nothing, you wait or run and follow up.

A lot of this match up is being very patient, trying to get damage off of punishing Meta's approaches, and looking for gerudo, as it does everything against meta. Just remember not too approach with gerudo...very bad. I'm having success punishing a shielded tornado with Gerudo too. I'm trying to figure out the right DI if you get caught in it, but I'm not sure yet. Oh and multi tap horizontal DI works well against his u-smash.

90-10, MK's favor. Ganon can't escape a properly-executed Whornado. And Wizard's Kick just leaves you totally open.

__V said:

90-10, MK's favor. Ganon can't escape a properly-executed Whornado. And Wizard's Kick just leaves you totally open.

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Absolutely no research, I take it? Ganon's dash attack is one of whorenado's most worthy foes. Not to mention that DA can kill off the top of the stage at less than 90%. Noting that, a whorenado actually gives ganon an okay shot for a KO at mid-high percentages. Don't get me wrong, whorenado is, like its name implies, a b****, but ganon is fortunate enough to have a reliable, quick counter to it in the iDA.

Regarding wiz kick...what the hell are you trying to say? In a meta v ganon matchup, does something special happen to the wiz kick that leaves him especially open? The wiz kick ALWAYS leaves ganon open. Surprisingly, the wiz kick is meant to connect with a player, not serve ganon up to them on a silver plate. Here's a basic fact about ganon: if one is a stupid player, ganon will be left open ALL over the place. He's got more lag and openings than he knows what to do with. Here's another basic fact about ganon: if one is a smart player, they will know how to minimize and eliminate the vast majority of those openings. ie- they won't wiz kick in a cavalier manner, got me?

Sorry if this sounds cranky - I am indeed peeved right now for reasons part and parcel to this discussion - but I'm so tired of misinformed one liner ascertations about ganon match-ups. Posting a 90-10 score with a heavily fallible rationale to bolster the score doesn't help the process of dissection a match-up. Hell, it's completely possible that this match up is 90-10, but absolutely not for the reasons posted above.

EDIT:

Swoops said: I'm having success punishing a shielded tornado with Gerudo too. I'm trying to figure out the right DI if you get caught in it, but I'm not sure yet. Oh and multi tap horizontal DI works well against his u-smash.

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Yes, this is worth mentioning. If MK is whornadoing with multiple B taps to rise off the ground and extend his tornado time, it's worth noting that he goes into free fall immediately after he comes out of the move. This is true for all of his B aerials, though this will never happen with shuttle loop because any MK worth their weight in salt will glide for a glide attack or in order to get a safe distance from his opponents. When shielding a whorenado, tilt your shield towards it (generally in front and up). If stuck in the tornado, alternating DI and smashDI works best to get out of it, though I'm investigating quarter stick DI, which I think is going to yield better results.

hyperstation said:

Yes, this is worth mentioning. If MK is whornadoing with multiple B taps to rise off the ground and extend his tornado time, it's worth noting that he goes into free fall immediately after he comes out of the move. This is true for all of his B aerials, though this will never happen with shuttle loop because any MK worth their weight in salt will glide for a glide attack or in order to get a safe distance from his opponents. When shielding a whorenado, tilt your shield towards it (generally in front and up). If stuck in the tornado, alternating DI and smashDI works best to get out of it, though I'm investigating quarter stick DI, which I think is going to yield better results.

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Well shuttle loop is completely safe with a smart player. Glide attack cancels all lag when done near the ground.

I knew you could be able to use smash DI but I was more interested in which direction is the most effective. I'm thinking down works well for a rising nado.

hyperstation said:

Sorry if this sounds cranky - I am indeed peeved right now for reasons part and parcel to this discussion - but I'm so tired of misinformed one liner ascertations about ganon match-ups. Posting a 90-10 score with a heavily fallible rationale to bolster the score doesn't help the process of dissection a match-up. Hell, it's completely possible that this match up is 90-10, but absolutely not for the reasons posted above.

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90-10 Ganon's favor. Metaknight can't escape a properly-executed Flame Choke. And Whornado just leaves you totally open.

Sorry hyperstation, I couldn't resist.

On a more serious note, I would actually say maybe a 80-20 MK's favor.
1. Because of the shoulder beating out the whornado
2. MK is one of the few that can be hit by just about any attack after a flame choke.
3. The SHFF Bair and Nair approaches

And yeah I always edgeguard MK, I rarely go out after him. I generally use a Bair, f-tilt, jab, f-smash to get off the edge and use wizards foot and dair to guard.

If you predict a tornado, or they tornado stupidly, you can double jump dair, itll hit through tornado if you space it well and get it in the middle. Its a tough matchup, but you can actually spike Mk out of his up b(ive had this done to me, its frusterating). Dtilt if he tries to dash attack you.

Ok, 85-15 sounds about right, what say you guys?

I'll make sure to note the counters in the summery.

I'm sorry to say that this is easily one of Ganon's worse (if not, worst) matchups.

MK is faster, outprioritizes you, is hard to gimp, racks up damage absurdly easily, has a better recovery, and is nearly impossible to punish due to his virtually inexistent lag.

Ganon has a few advantages lie his Dash attack and Flame Choke, but that's pretty much it. More daring palyers can go for a hard-to-connect-with D-air for an early KO, if not just wait for the 80% mark and Dahs attack. The problem is surving that long with all odds against you.

At least MK doesn't have a spammable projectile...

At best... 75: 25 Meta Knight
At worst... 90:10 Meta Knight

Sorry, but I switch over to Marth for Meta Knight matches

But if I do play a Meta Knight with Ganon I run to Delfino all the time. I manage to Spike him with Das Boot a few times.....then he Whorenado and Shuttle Looped for the win.

this match up is just mad difficult in general, i usually rely on Gannon's murder choke tactics for % then time a well placed f-tilt or d-tilt for the kill. Off stage i try not to get to reckless meta knight owns the sky's off stage. If he shuttle loops as a tactic to get himself back on stage i will usually shield it and grab him after glide attack.