The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

Bump for update...I will be editing the info in post 2 sometime today (Sum1 do it for me mebbe?). We can officially start on the Marth discussion now.

Good timing - we are now also starting the kirby discussion

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196139

Update complete. U like?

Discussion stimulator: How do you get by Marth's wall of F-tilts, F-airs, and D-tilts?

Overview: A good Marth would play offensively, if he fails and stays defensive, you attack him, but not all out. He is gonna be using d-tilts aand fair. I dont play that many Marths, but from the times i play him myself i noticed Marths down-b is very useful on predictable players. So when playing Kirby stay very unpredictable. Dont attack all open spaces, and if he shields you attack him till his shield breaks. If he uses up-B to break an attack you can **** him with a hammer if your close, or if your sent far off, a quick up-B projectile should be funny too
Pros+Cons: You can stay in the air a good amount of time. use that against him to get around D-smash and D-tilt. Downside is he can do a lot of damage with F-air. When he's at 0-10% Damage, do a F-throw into hammer for a quick 30%. When you block an attack of his, or does down B out of random, use a ground hammer for a BAWWW hit
Watch out for: his air-game. his F-air is lethal, just play defensive.
How to win: Float as much as you can, airdodge and bair or make a wall of pain and F-air him all the way off-screen. If Marf plays defensively, just use up-B and and a grab attack immedeatly after it
Spit out or Swallow? Definitly swallow, if you get smacked high, the B attack (forgot name) will move you forward a lot, saving your jumps and also being a good shield breaker.
What NOT to do: play offensively and stay on ground.
Stages: Skyworld or Jungle Japes. Bad sideways recovery ftw
Synopsis: You hit from the back in the head, NOT GROUND
I wouldn't give it 31-69, more 35-65

Character: Marth
Difficulty rating: somewhere between 40-60 to 30-70
Overview: I believe Marth is Kirby's worst match-up, you have to be really defensive, out smart your opponent. Marth's sometimes tend to get over aggresive, so if they have pour spacing, take advantage and counter attack.
Pros: small target, grab combos, edge-guarding
Cons: small range compared to Marth's sword, light weight, priority
Watch out for: freaking tipped f-smash
How to win: play super defensive until you find an opening to attack, try not to approach him, let him approach you, power shield his approaches, focus on using your f-tilt and d-tilt for spacing after shielding or dodging, space your f-air and b-air, abuse b-air and u-tilt OOS, bait smashes and punish, jab here and there to throw them off, and, if possible, do a kirbycide ;D
What NOT to do: never, EVER use any smash OOS unless your 100% sure you'll hit.
Stages: I prefer stages with platforms like battlefield, smashville, yoshi's story, and if possible, I like to counter-pick with halberd and frigate orpheon.
Synopsis: play smart, defensive, space well, take advantage of your superior air game and control and you should be alright...I guess

Nice setup on the first page MK26.

Marth

This match up isn't nowhere nearly as difficult as snake's match was, and is actually pretty similar to how it was in Melee so if you were good against marth in melee with kirby it is pretty much the same. What you should do is stay on the ground, NOT in the air. If you are in the air you are vunerable to his super fast and powerful air attacks that outprioritize kirby's. Powershield, or dodge his attacks and counter. Don't attempt to edgegaurd him because it is futile against good Marths. IF you suck in his power it is very good against him.

One of the main new problems in this matchup is his forward B. It is very very fast and deadly. This move alone makes it a disadvantageous match.

Snake
Has noone read my information regarding this match. Well Ill just repost everything here.

"In case you haven't noticed snake's approach is really limited to mainly his tilts and projectiles. I don't think you'll ever see a snake approach with an aerial attack. His projectiles aren't difficult to avoid, you just need practice against them to learn, and snakes use f-tilt as his main approach for the most part so expect it and counter it. It is that simple.

One of the main problem is that everytime you mess up expect 20- 30 percent, and then there is his u-tilt which kills you at 90 whereas KOing him is near impossible."

This was another post I made previously regarding snake

"The first time I played against a snake I did fairly well considering the matchup and my lack of knowledge of several things like Snake's insane range and power in his tilts which proved to be a huge problem when approaching.

Anyways racking up damage isn't too difficult even though comboing snake is very difficult, seeing as he could just pull out a grenade when you are about to hit him which causes you to both get hit. This includes the very first hit of the fair upair combo at zero percent.

The main problem is KOing Snake. All edge gaurding him is out of the question because when he does his double jump + up B he just flies straight up so fast making it easy for him to recover from over the screen.

So that leaves several options left. First you can hope to take away his second jump and then edgegaurd him which is possible, but not very likely. Second you can hope to KO him with a powerful move, but approaching with aerial hammer is quite dangerous, and his other ground attacks are too slow. Even if you powershield his tilts you can't get a smash attack off which I have tried.

The other situations in which Snake can be smashed are very unlikely to occur (dtilt trip into smash, dair into smash, or cancel his attacks with a smash) which means that your other means of KOing him are with a back air at a high percent or some move at a very high percent, which is not very efficient.

All of this in combination with the fact of how easy it is for snake to kill kirby makes this match very difficult, almost impossible for the kirby player to win considering if both players were at equal level."

Gf2tw said:

(Cold hard info. I like it.)

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~Shao~ said:

(Colder, harder info. I like it more.)

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Yes. Cold hard info. I like it.

Asdioh said:

Nice setup on the first page MK26.

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TY. In other news, your new sig is made of win.

skellitorman said:

(Info on Marth and Snake)

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Thanks for the Marth info. Is the Snake stuff originally from the old matchup thread?

Even if you stay on the ground Marth still has "super fast and powerful attacks that outprioritize kirby's."

Dtilt is his best spacing tool/poke.

Ftilt will destroy any kind of short hop approach because of it's wide arc.

Walling with fairs and nairs will also give Kirby a ton of trouble when in the air or ground.

Any mistake is punished with dancing blade, which as you said, is now amazing.

I just don't see kirby having a reliable way to rack up damage in this match. If you had a nice way to get past his sword then it might be a closer ratio.

It is true that f-tilt will beat kirby's short hop and marth's dtilt will beat most of kirby's attacks, However if you accurately predict when your opponent will use a ftilt which you can dash powershield and grab or dtilt or w/e after you shield. You could also spot dodge it, or roll behind him. Marth doesn't fight that well when your close to him whereas for kirby its great.

As for d tilt you could short hop forward air and hit him if he does d tilt. As for his forward B you could shield it and roll behind him as he hits you or just shield it till he finishes and punish him. Notice how all your options are from when you are on the ground. From the air you are practically defenseless unless you do the down B ja ja. I forgot to mention that you could also short hop air dodge to get in close.

For the aerial attacks, all you have to do is powershield and enter. Once you are next to him up tilts, jabs, or grabs work great against him. You probably won't be doing many combos in this character matchup, but thats ok, because if you played this matchup from melee then you would know that Kirby can't combo marth anyways (in melee, but in Brawl he can't combo Marth much either) yet the matchup wasn't entirely impossible. Just slowly but surely rack up that damage and go for the KO.

KOing Marth isn't much of a problem either unlike the snake match up. forward smash will actually outprioritize several of Marth's moves if done right or you could just hit him from defending against one of his laggier moves like a smash attack. This match isn't as hard as many people think it is (though it can be rough at times) if you are really good at playing defensively.

skellitorman said:

It is true that f-tilt will beat kirby's short hop and marth's dtilt will beat most of kirby's attacks, However if you accurately predict when your opponent will use a ftilt which you can dash powershield and grab or dtilt or w/e after you shield. You could also spot dodge it, or roll behind him. Marth doesn't fight that well when your close to him whereas for kirby its great.

As for d tilt you could short hop forward air and hit him if he does d tilt. As for his forward B you could shield it and roll behind him as he hits you or just shield it till he finishes and punish him. Notice how all your options are from when you are on the ground. From the air you are practically defenseless unless you do the down B ja ja. I forgot to mention that you could also short hop air dodge to get in close.

For the aerial attacks, all you have to do is powershield and enter. Once you are next to him up tilts, jabs, or grabs work great against him. You probably won't be doing many combos in this character matchup, but thats ok, because I am used to not being able to do combos on marth anyways from melee. Just slowly but surely rack up that damage and go for the KO.

KOing Marth isn't much of a problem either unlike the snake match up. forward smash will actually outprioritize several of Marth's moves if done right or you could just hit him from defending against one of his laggier moves like a smash attack. This match isn't as hard as many people think it is (though it can be rough at times) if you are really good at playing defensively.

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Are you actually debating me here?

First of all your post lost half its credibility when you said "predict", because mindgames have no place in a match up discussion. They are intangibles.

Also it's true that powershielding is easier in brawl, but we are humans and you won't be doing it that consistently. That's like saying if Snake is going to ftilt me ill just power shield every time and punish so i can enter easily and never get hit. It doesn't work like that.

Marth isn't bad when you are close to him. He has good grab range, a fast jab to hit you back out, a fast dancing blade, and an up b out of shield that can punish just about everything with its 5 frames of invincibility.

You say if we dtilt just roll behind marth or spot dodge >_> That's just what Marth wants you to do. If you spot dodge we can punish with dancing blade, if you roll behind us we once again, punish with dancing blade.

Kirby's fsmash is great, but you have to get past marth's sword first in order to do that.

Your argument is nothing but theory. You aren't even getting into what Marth can do to shut you down. It's just "if marth does this, well we can easily do this".

OK first of all I want you to realize that I am not being hostile (although I am not claiming that you thought of me that way) but I will debate this situation for the benefit of the Kirby players on the board.

Now to debate your situation in which you say "mindgames" are not included in a matchup discussion because they are intagibles. I am assuming that your definition for tangible in this situation is that it could be seen. Therefore for this example I will use shielding or rolling as "tangibles." Now you say that he will use f tilt to out prioritize my attacks. How? That is given that I approach him and not defend, in which the opponent would have to predict that I would not defend thus allowing him to successfully hit me. Therefore I say that I "outprioritize" his attack with my defense given that he attacks. How do I know he will attack? Well there are a number of ways in which theory has been made to explain this, but lets pretend that I have no idea what my opponent will do so that I could use things that are "tangibles."

If I run and shield and my opponent attacks me I will cancel his attack and will be able to counter, just like if he f-tilts me as I do an aerial attack he will cancel out my attack. That is an approach that is reliable, and "tangible."

Now for your second claim you said that "we are humans and we can't consistently powershield." That is something that doesn't go in a character debate situation. Just because many players don't powershield that often doesn't mean that I don't powershield that often or that good players who actually practice powershielding gets good at them. We can raise our percent chance of powershielding to a very high number which allows us to do that well in the match.

However pretend that all my shields are not powershields. I can still do the same tactics, though I have a higher chance of failing, due to things like shield piercing, shield stun and sliding back when getting hit.

Also you said that "mindgames" don't come in an argument or theory shouldn't be in this situation yet you used one as well. You said roll behind him is "what Marth wants you to do", so that he can punish. Of course rolling can be countered but rolling when marth does a ftilt, or a smash attack gives you the advantage as you finish before he does thus giving you a chance to attack.

Also Kirby's fsmash does outprioritize a few of marth's moves as I have done it many times, and you could just dodge and counter.

Lastly I would like to ask if you have played Kirby in melee at a professional level. If you havn't then I could say that your post lost alot of credibility, because of how similar the match is. Playing this matchup in melee for so long has allowed me to learn so much of this matchup.

skellitorman said:

It is true that f-tilt will beat kirby's short hop and marth's dtilt will beat most of kirby's attacks, However if you accurately predict when your opponent will use a ftilt which you can dash powershield and grab or dtilt or w/e after you shield. You could also spot dodge it, or roll behind him. Marth doesn't fight that well when your close to him whereas for kirby its great.

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I disagree. Marth has more options than you (in the air and on the ground), so it's going to be easier for him to predict you. If you can predict him easily - great, you should do fine, but that probably means there's a moderate skill gap.

Vs a marth, I use my grabs, which I consider better than his (overall). Fthrow uair combo to pop in in the air, chase, shield aerials, regrab, dtrhow, chase, repeat. Not foolproof, but if you can get him to use his 2nd jump to escape, follow him and knock him off the stage (bair or something, I dunno) so that all he's left with is his upB.

Kirby can't do anything to marth's upB directly, but it goes so fast it's easy to use invincibility frames to edgehog him (then punish his landing if he still makes it on.) You're usually a sitting duck for his tipper spike though - thankfully not many of his attacks send you low, so try to recover up high.

More later I guess.

skellitorman said:

OK first of all I want you to realize that I am not being hostile (although I am not claiming that you thought of me that way) but I will debate this situation for the benefit of the Kirby players on the board.

Now to debate your situation in which you say "mindgames" are not included in a matchup discussion because they are intagibles. I am assuming that your definition for tangible in this situation is that it could be seen. Therefore for this example I will use shielding or rolling as "tangibles." Now you say that he will use f tilt to out prioritize my attacks. How? That is given that I approach him and not defend, in which the opponent would have to predict that I would not defend thus allowing him to successfully hit me. Therefore I say that I "outprioritize" his attack with my defense given that he attacks. How do I know he will attack? Well there are a number of ways in which theory has been made to explain this, but lets pretend that I have no idea what my opponent will do so that I could use things that are "tangibles."

If I run and shield and my opponent attacks me I will cancel his attack and will be able to counter, just like if he f-tilts me as I do an aerial attack he will cancel out my attack. That is an approach that is reliable, and "tangible."

Now for your second claim you said that "we are humans and we can't consistently powershield." That is something that doesn't go in a character debate situation. Just because many players don't powershield that often doesn't mean that I don't powershield that often or that good players who actually practice powershielding gets good at them. We can raise our percent chance of powershielding to a very high number which allows us to do that well in the match.

However pretend that all my shields are not powershields. I can still do the same tactics, though I have a higher chance of failing, due to things like shield piercing, shield stun and sliding back when getting hit.

Also you said that "mindgames" don't come in an argument or theory shouldn't be in this situation yet you used one as well. You said roll behind him is "what Marth wants you to do", so that he can punish. Of course rolling can be countered but rolling when marth does a ftilt, or a smash attack gives you the advantage as you finish before he does thus giving you a chance to attack.

Also Kirby's fsmash does outprioritize a few of marth's moves as I have done it many times, and you could just dodge and counter.

Lastly I would like to ask if you have played Kirby in melee at a professional level. If you havn't then I could say that your post lost alot of credibility, because of how similar the match is. Playing this matchup in melee for so long has allowed me to learn so much of this matchup.

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Melee? No. This is a different game and Marth is played differently from Melee.

Mindgames can't be discussed in a match up, no. Perhaps intangibles was the wrong word, I was simply trying to reinforce my point.

We are discussing two top level players of equal skill. So if two top level players could power shield say 40-60% of the time, then let's go back into theory. You powershield let's say a SHFF fair from marth and are now inside his sword and can hit him. Well Marth can just powershield and grab or up b out of shield amirite? Sounds ********, doesn't it? I could basically say marth can up b everything and not ever get hit.

I never said ftilt was just going to flat out out-prioritize you, I simply said marth had more overall priority.

Dash to shield is a very viable approach for just about every character in the game. This is a good approach for Kirby and maybe his best in the match up. But why would kirby be doing all the approaching? Marth can camp like a ghey but he can aggro as well and be relatively safe. Marth's long range lets Kirby fall prey to his zoning. If Marth is spacing correctly and laying on constant pressure Kirby can't do much.

I suppose you could call the "roll and spot dodge" punishing aspect i brought up a mindgame. Though it's more of a trap. Marth's dtilt trap can punish just about every option unless you jump away or roll away. But if you do that Marth can just reset the situation and continue laying on pressure. I only brought this up to counter one of your theory arguments.

Kirby will eventually find himself inside marth's sword, sure. But he will have a hell of a lot of trouble getting there and probably won't be there for long.

And I didn't want to come across as hostile either, just discussing a match up.

Thank you for debating with me rather than trying to flame me, which wouldn't have helped the situation.

Now that we are back at talking about theory it will be easier to explain. Now lets start with Marth f airing me. If I powershield it I could literally walk right after that powershield for the few frames that marth has left. Then I could A. defend his next attack (shield, or dodge) now that I am close to him, B. grab him if he shields, jab him if he spotdodges, or tilt if he is still in the air or C. I could do not take advantage of the situation.

Also yes Marth can do all those things from shield, but you could defend all those things as well, especially if you defended against his approaching attacks and you got close to him. Now suppose I shield or spotdodge his Up B I get a nice free hit when he lands which I usually will make count.

Now I don't understand your situation with the Marth camping thing, because Marth doesn't have projectiles, he has to be relatively close to you to hit you (although he could be far away enough that you can't hit him, though not by much). And of course Kirby will have to approach him because if Kirby doesn't approach then Kirby will always stay just outside of Marth's range which we already established.

Now as far as the punishment from rolling or spotdodging being a result from a trap (trap meaning something unavoidable) is clearly untrue. Spotdodges and rolls ends faster than most of marths moves. You could spotdodge Marth's ftilt, or fsmash and counter every single time without fail, because it ends faster. Now Marth's dtilt can be countered by f air as I already said, therefore that is not the only option. In addition to that, you could run and powershield with any counter (given the time frames you have) after the powershield like a grab. You could run and roll behind as Marth D-tilts in which you both end at around the same time, but since you are close and Marth is turned around you have a huge advantage (though rolling behind marth when he does d-tilt is risky because you have to be extremely accurate).

As I already established you don't have to be near Marth for long, and we know that you can't really combo Marth. Just do some damage and repeat the process. Don't forget Kirby's down throw does 12% and if you grab and do those mini punches you could increase the damage. That 12% eventually does stack up.

This is what I mean by traps:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183969

Now that you understand that..

You completely went back to "if marth does this kirby does this." Why don't I reverse it on you and say well if Kirby shields ill just use shield breaker. You would think I'd have to predict your shield but it seems you are completely predicting my dtilt if you can so easily punish that with a fair. You really can't discuss a match up like that, its just dumb.

Marth won't be up b'ng out of shield unless you are in a vulnerable position. ie in the air after landing a bair on his shield. If both players are at a neutral it's obviously very unsafe.

Marth can camp with his sword, yes. That's basically what i've been saying this whole time when i say "kirby has trouble getting inside marths sword". The same can be said for trying to get past pit's arrows to be able to hit pit.

What do you mean Kirby will always stay just outside of Marth's range if he doesn't approach? That doesn't make any sense. Marth is perfectly capable of approaching in this match and Kirby won't like it one bit. If he zones you with Fairs/dtilts/jabs etc and punishes with dancing blade I don't see kirby having a good way around it because of his lack of range compared to Marth.

Yes that 12% will stack up. But Kirby's % will rise much quicker than Marth's does. You just said yourself Kirby won't be in there for long. What's going to happen when he is getting zoned by Marth the majority of the time?

And since kizzu explained it a tad better than i did...

Kizzu-kun said:

Just adding a side note AGAIN:
Matchup discussions is all about tactics before the match starts.
Who is going to have a favor against who naturally speaking.
Skill isn't measured here, just character abilities.
A player only can change this if he revolutionizes and add more abilities to his character.

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Thank you everybody for all your input, but now lets continue this discussion.

"What do you mean Kirby will always stay just outside of Marth's range if he doesn't approach? That doesn't make any sense. Marth is perfectly capable of approaching in this match and Kirby won't like it one bit. If he zones you with Fairs/dtilts/jabs etc and punishes with dancing blade I don't see kirby having a good way around it because of his lack of range compared to Marth."

What I meant when I said "Kirby always staying just outside Marth's range if he doesn't approach" you see I said he I meant Kirby. If Marth approaches and Kirby doesn't approach then Kirby will be just outside Marth's range. That's what I meant. If Kirby approaches at the same time Marth approaches with an aerial Kirby will be in range.

Now as for the d tilt situation. Even given the IASA frames on the move, if I approach and he does a d-tilt and I powershield I will most certainly counter him before he is able to do anything.

"Originally Posted by Kizzu-kun View Post
Just adding a side note AGAIN:
Matchup discussions is all about tactics before the match starts.
Who is going to have a favor against who naturally speaking.
Skill isn't measured here, just character abilities.
A player only can change this if he revolutionizes and add more abilities to his character."

Thank you for posting that. Since its based on character abilities I can say powershield for everything since in theory every character is able to powershield all of Marth's moves. Now since Marth has the advantage because of priority and range Marth will most likely be the aggressor in this matchup, thus having Kirby attack him is a matter of defending and countering.

Now According to Dr. Peepee "Using Dtilt on a shield is actually a trap for Marth unless you roll backwards. By making use of Dtilt's IASA frames, Marth can punish a roll by turning around to Dancing Blade. He can punish a held shield with another Dtilt to poke. He can punish an aerial with an Ftilt or Fair (Dtilt should be spaced at max range to insure that the aerial/attack out of shield doesn't hit him before he can react)."

If his d tilt was really all that great where there is a trap that is absolutely undefendable then why would Marth use different moves? Why would he have different approaches? The reason why he does have different approaches is because it isn't a trap. It can be defended.

How the hell is Kirby going to be "just outside his range" when Marth approaches? What's he going to do when marth approaches? Run away?

A perfectly spaced dtilt is safe on block, it's probably marth's most safest move.

Why do you keep bringing up power shielding? Leave this out of the match up discussion or I could go into every board and say Marth has the advantage because he'll power shield whatever move you use and just use dancing blade.

A marth could arguably use only dtilt and dancing blade for his way of racking up damage. It's arguably his best move. If he does nothing but dtilt though it's easy to see coming and a SH approach would beat it. Yes, it's a trap. A trap isn't unavoidable.

So i was at SOVA today and got ***** by a marth player. I switched to Wolf and did better but still had a difficult time due to my poor Bair spacing with wolf. The match is just ******** for Kirby against Marth. i give it a 40-60 to Marth

~Gonzo~ said:

So i was at SOVA today and got ***** by a marth player. I switched to Wolf and did better but still had a difficult time due to my poor Bair spacing with wolf. The match is just ******** for Kirby against Marth. i give it a 40-60 to Marth

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You got ***** and it's ******** match for kirby and its.... only 60 40?

its probably about 70:30

Hmm... I disagree with Kirby having the advantage vs Olimar, its more of an neutral match up. 50:50. Since Olimar can KO Kirby easily, and can spam pikmin well, but Kirby can gimp his recovery easily, so they both have even advantages against each other.

Olimar (60-40)
Suggested: (50-50) by CaliburChamp
Their board says: (60-40)
Verdict: ?

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I think it's 60-40 for Kirby. Kirby has a bair wall that forces Olimar to pivotgrab (he can't stay in place). This pushes him towards the edge of the stage where Oli does bad and Kirby does well.

When Olimar is hit off the stage against Kirby, it's a free stock. Kirby's very precise aerial movement can pressure Oli into airdodging too early or whistling too early and can punish both.

Kirby's fast attacks coupled with his insane juggling ability makes every part of his game hard to get past or defend against.

Or...maybe I'm just playing the matchup wrong, lol.

it was Jwolfs Marth, and the Oli matchup i think is in Oli's favor, throwing the pikmin do so much damage, but when i spoke to P~S about the matchup he felt it was good for kirby b/c of his copy so i guess 50-50 sounds good

Ja ja I am really sorry about my sentence, I definitely did say it wrong that time.

"How the hell is Kirby going to be "just outside his range" when Marth approaches? What's he going to do when marth approaches? Run away?"

What I meant was that Marth is going to be outside Kirby's range if Marth approaches, if Kirby just stands there, because Marth's range is only a bit longer. Now If they both approach at the same time Kirby will be inside Marth's range, and Marth will be inside Kirby's range, but Kirby still can't attack because of Marth's superior speed/ priority, assuming that Marth is going to attack, which he most likely will.

Now the reason I am saying powershielding is because it is part of the characters capabilities to do so which was posted by you a few posts ago. I am aware that Marth could powershield as well but I doubt that Marth could Powershield a neutral jab from kirby and counter it, because of its speed, whereas powershielding Marth's attacks would basically always lead to a counter.

Now that we have been talking about traps I would like to say that Kirby has plenty of "traps" as well. Every character has traps, because every movement allows for certain movements to be done, while others can't be done because it would lead to being hit. Also all that any character requires is one alternate move that could be done to counter a move so that it could be done if one trap is set, whereas the other move would be done if it wasn't.

Now as for Kirby's "traps, " being next to an opponent is my favorite thing with Kirby because of all the ridiculous traps that he has. I could A. grab if the opponent shields, B. neutral B if the opponent spotdodges, OR jab, OR f b (although you have to press fB at the exact same time the opponent spotdodges if you want to get this hit off, I have actually done this to Caliburchamp in Kirby dittos, so he could verify it). If he C. rolls away I will just follow him and repeat the process, or if he rolls through me I could dsmash, fsmash, uptilt, or turn around and repeat the process. If he D. tries to jump, I could uptilt, or just follow him when he lands, thus repeating the process. If he E. tries to attack me (while I am up close) I could shield/dodge (depending on the move) and counter. If he F. tries to grab I will spotdodge and counter. If he does shield breaker, you better hope that you see that in time and defend appropriately, like rolling behind him.

Please keep in mind that these situations don't all occur at once and that Marth doesn't have all these options open at all times.

Marth's B moves is what makes him a difficult character to fight in this game, and as Gonzo said he would rate this match a 40/60 and I say that sounds pretty accurate.

Also for those people who haven't played this matchup in melee I will explain to you how it went so that you could see how difficult yet possible this match was. It was far tougher than it is now. Firstly with dash dancing and wavedashing, attempting to do a short hop f air was suicide. Secondly if Marth grabbed you (keep in mind he had the biggest grab range in the game) he gets a few free chain grabs into a free tipper. Thirdly recovering was nearly impossible with only the ability to air dodge once and Kirby's terrible air mobility/ and UPb. Basically being in the air was asking for death as

All you could basically do was dashdance, wavedash, spot dodge and roll through certain of his attacks, or triangle dodge. As for the only attacks you could do was grab, d tilt, and sometimes youll get the chance for a few uptilts and back airs. Keep in mind that you could not really combo with these moves, and Marth could get out of your forward and back throws, meaning up or down throw. But yea get in, grab and do a lot of upthrows, and when he was ready back air, and do the shield trick to edge gaurd him or attack him if he tries to get back the other way.

In Brawl, Marth has no where near the amount of punishment that he could use against Kirby. In addition Kirby is super buffed and has alot more tactics that he could use once close.

skellitorman said:

Ja ja I am really sorry about my sentence, I definitely did say it wrong that time.

"How the hell is Kirby going to be "just outside his range" when Marth approaches? What's he going to do when marth approaches? Run away?"

What I meant was that Marth is going to be outside Kirby's range if Marth approaches, if Kirby just stands there, because Marth's range is only a bit longer. Now If they both approach at the same time Kirby will be inside Marth's range, and Marth will be inside Kirby's range, but Kirby still can't attack because of Marth's superior speed/ priority, assuming that Marth is going to attack, which he most likely will.

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That would require the marth to have some crappy spacing, because he won't be just moving forward expecting kirby to just stand there. If kirby approaches at the same time he will throw out his sword sooner and continue to keep Kirby out.

skellitorman said:

Now the reason I am saying powershielding is because it is part of the characters capabilities to do so which was posted by you a few posts ago. I am aware that Marth could powershield as well but I doubt that Marth could Powershield a neutral jab from kirby and counter it, because of its speed, whereas powershielding Marth's attacks would basically always lead to a counter.

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Dancing blade? Jab? You can't powershield those on reaction. Why would marth be in range of kirby's jab anyway?

skellitorman said:

Now that we have been talking about traps I would like to say that Kirby has plenty of "traps" as well. Every character has traps, because every movement allows for certain movements to be done, while others can't be done because it would lead to being hit. Also all that any character requires is one alternate move that could be done to counter a move so that it could be done if one trap is set, whereas the other move would be done if it wasn't.

Now as for Kirby's "traps, " being next to an opponent is my favorite thing with Kirby because of all the ridiculous traps that he has. I could A. grab if the opponent shields, B. neutral B if the opponent spotdodges, OR jab, OR f b (although you have to press fB at the exact same time the opponent spotdodges if you want to get this hit off, I have actually done this to Caliburchamp in Kirby dittos, so he could verify it). If he C. rolls away I will just follow him and repeat the process, or if he rolls through me I could dsmash, fsmash, uptilt, or turn around and repeat the process. If he D. tries to jump, I could uptilt, or just follow him when he lands, thus repeating the process. If he E. tries to attack me (while I am up close) I could shield/dodge (depending on the move) and counter. If he F. tries to grab I will spotdodge and counter. If he does shield breaker, you better hope that you see that in time and defend appropriately, like rolling behind him.

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LOL, this isn't a trap sir. You're saying a trap is kirby just standing next to his opponent and reacting? What is going to force his reaction? Marth's dtilt forces the opponent to do something or he is going to get hit.

And all of the things you just mentioned would require you have 1-frame reaction time. How are you going to so easily tell the difference if I am about to spot dodge or throw out a jab etc? It's much easier for marth because there is only so many things the opponent can do. You listed up to #F options the opponent has and Kirby isn't as good at traps as Marth is because he isn't as fast.

skellitorman said:

Please keep in mind that these situations don't all occur at once and that Marth doesn't have all these options open at all times.

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Yes he does. Kirby is just going to stand there? Wait wait wait.. how the hell is kirby going to get next to Marth in the first place? OH HE'S GOING TO POWERSHIELD HIS WAY IN AMIRITE?

skellitorman said:

Marth's B moves is what makes him a difficult character to fight in this game, and as Gonzo said he would rate this match a 40/60 and I say that sounds pretty accurate.

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A character who has a hell of a time just getting in range to hit the opponent sounds more like 70:30 to me, and most of the other kirby's agree as well as the marth boards.

skellitorman said:

Also for those people who haven't played this matchup in melee I will explain to you how it went so that you could see how difficult yet possible this match was. It was far tougher than it is now. Firstly with dash dancing and wavedashing, attempting to do a short hop f air was suicide. Secondly if Marth grabbed you (keep in mind he had the biggest grab range in the game) he gets a few free chain grabs into a free tipper. Thirdly recovering was nearly impossible with only the ability to air dodge once and Kirby's terrible air mobility/ and UPb. Basically being in the air was asking for death as

All you could basically do was dashdance, wavedash, spot dodge and roll through certain of his attacks, or triangle dodge. As for the only attacks you could do was grab, d tilt, and sometimes youll get the chance for a few uptilts and back airs. Keep in mind that you could not really combo with these moves, and Marth could get out of your forward and back throws, meaning up or down throw. But yea get in, grab and do a lot of upthrows, and when he was ready back air, and do the shield trick to edge gaurd him or attack him if he tries to get back the other way.

In Brawl, Marth has no where near the amount of punishment that he could use against Kirby. In addition Kirby is super buffed and has alot more tactics that he could use once close.

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You simply cannot compare this to a game that is completely different. Brawl is a VERY campy game. Melee isn't. Thus the metagame is completely different and so is every character match up.

tl;dr

*looks at Steel's sig instead*

Asdioh said:

tl;dr

*looks at Steel's sig instead*

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Good show sir. Well played.

lol
Powershielding is a in-match guessing defensive option.

Yeah, its true that you can powershield, but in order to do that you need to predict your opponent, and this is related to player's skill, not the character.

Why is Marth 61-39, lol.

Let's get some things straight here:
1) This matchup is definitely 70-30 in favour of Marth
2) If you can powershield every attack in the game you will win. Unfortunately, powershielding attacks should not be part of matchup discussion. As Kizzu said, it is related to player skill.
3) SOLID doesnt get the joke
4) I don't know how to request a sticky

MK26 said:

Let's get some things straight here:
1) This matchup is definitely 70-30 in favour of Marth
2) If you can powershield every attack in the game you will win. Unfortunately, powershielding attacks should not be part of matchup discussion. As Kizzu said, it is related to player skill.
3) SOLID doesnt get the joke
4) I don't know how to request a sticky

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This.

I'm pretty much done here, I've given solid proof why this match is 70:30 and I can't debate with someone whose main argument is power shielding.

I'm late as cheese on this one but on the Snake counterpick discussion, Japes and Luigi's Mansion are banned in some regions already. Where I'm at Luigi's Mansion is already banned and Japes is banned New Orleans, but cp in Baton Rouge (about 60 miles apart). Also played Brawl with the best player in Louisiana and he says avoid Smashville when fighting Snake.

Also Marth is easily 70-30. Dancing Blade *****, fsmash and usmash ****, his range *****, his aerial and ground mobility ****, Marth is just **** and can take full advantage of this match. Played a decent Marth the other day and the match was redunkulously close. I actually lost the set due to a controller malfunction (no johns), but the fact is that I was playing to my best and knew that if the match was even, I would've easily 2-stocked him. But because he was playing Marth, all the matches came down to the last life. As far as chars go, I always pick ROB. Reason being is that I only know how to play Kirby, ROB, TL, Weegee, and Lucas =[

dancing blade does **** and u cant powers shield all the hits. Also, even if u powershield marths attacks if the marth player is good his attacks will be spaced making it hard to reach him in time b4 he uses... u guessed it dancing blade to hit u away from him. Marth is a really hard character to play against as Kirby, again 60-40 at best.

~Gonzo~ said:

dancing blade does **** and u cant powers shield all the hits. Also, even if u powershield marths attacks if the marth player is good his attacks will be spaced making it hard to reach him in time b4 he uses... u guessed it dancing blade to hit u away from him. Marth is a really hard character to play against as Kirby, again 60-40 at best.

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These comments contradict each other, someone that's really hard isn't a 60-40. ROB isn't the easiest of Kirby's match, but is still very manageable. Marth is even in your words really hard to play against. 60-40 doesn't say really hard, 60-40 means that the match is very manageable. The margin of error of a match with Marth when compared to others has a very drastic difference. Even you said that you counterpicked against Marth, which is also what I do. I have confidence in my skills, I never counterpick 60-40 matches.

On the subject of Olimar, trust DanGR...he's too pro

70-30 seems outrageous to me.

I live in Florida which probably has a top 4/5 brawl scene in the country and I've played against plenty of decent Marths.

Kirby definitely doesn't go into the match with that big of a disadvantage. Kirby's f-tilt and Vulcan jabs are two of his best range moves and they work great vs Marth. Kirby has better throws, better edgeguarding, and his f-smash is a better kill move than anything Marth has.

I'd put it at 45-55.

In fact, I don't have any match up in the game worse than 45-55 for Kirby. As far as I'm concerned there's no match up in the game I think that Kirby goes into the match with a significant disadvantage.

lol, good one

sheer, that's cause of the level of play. but if there's a **** kirby fighting a **** marth, marth would probably win