Match-up discussion #9: R.O.B

Our next match-up is R.O.B...

What do you think about this one? I always thought, that it's a neutral match-up but many ppl seem to disagree with me. The most common argument is, that ROB lives virtually forever and that his Edgeguarding beats Wolf. That might be true but a fast, well spacing Wolf can do a lot to prevent such a thing from happening. Besides, Wolf isn't exactly easy to finish too and ROBs attacks don't deal that much damage. Not to mention the fact, that his finishers are very situational, so finishing might be - despite his amazing edgeguarding game - a problem for him...

Discuss!

Well, it isn't as bad as it could be, but I feel that ROB has an advantage. I'd say that ROB can gimp you at least as easily as MK, and if he tries to sidestep dsmash, hold A so he gets hit with the jab when he comes out of the dodge. If you get hit by dsmash, DI up and jump to get out (in case that isn't common knowledge by now).

Some general ROB tactics (I think): Start out a match by using reflector, some ROBs will laser you the instant the match begins. Do the same for the top if you can, and get rid of it if possible because IIRC it absorbs your lasers. You will probably fall prey to utilt > uair, so try to shine out of that in between. Also, for dthrow, it is followed up by aerials frequently, so DI to the side and then airdodge when the aerial comes out. ROB can airdodge out of upB if he uses an aerial in between, so keep that in mind too. They like glide tossing, and its very very useful, so if he's rolling towards you with a gyro in hand, be prepared. ROB's weak spots are below him and behind him, so take advantage of these. I guess thats all I have for now, this is probably slightly in ROB's favor purely because of gimping.

In my opinion ROB has the advantage. I think its 60-40 for ROB or something like that.

Wolf's Bair pressure should be solid in this matchup. Fair is good anti-air. Wolf might have the projectile advantage. R.O.B definitely has a better ground-poke game, he's pretty safe and has good range. He also has great recovery and the advantage offstage, and can potentially gimp your UpB. Wolf is better at straight up killing. I'm not sure what the matchup ratio is, but i'm starting to think they would make a good team.

Well...I asked some ROB players to join our discussion over at the ROB boards...hopefully they'll contribute...

As long as Wolf is sticking to SideB, getting gimped shouldn't be a huge issue. I see a lot of people talk about how easy Wolf is to gimp, but rarely see it happen in tournament play. Same thing with Falco, and he's top tier.

People say a lot of things about Wolfs recovery...it isn't great that's for sure. Most people just underrate it or overrate, how easily it is to gimp - despite the fact, that only few characters can safely gimp him (yes, ROB is one of them)

This definitely is not neutral. A good R.O.B. will take down a good Wolf fairly easily, simply because it's very easy to anticipate how Wolf must recover. Up+b aside, which I don't feel I need to cover, his side+B recovery can be very predictable and easy for a b-air in the face.

R.O.B. definitely has the projectile advantage, not Wolf. R.O.B. can throw out a projectile in a myriad of useful trajectories safely at nearly any time and from a nearly infinite distance. Wolf cannot. Wolf's reflector is far more useful for stunning than it is for reflecting because R.O.B. can shoot projectile during periods a Wolf cannot realistically reflect.

R.O.B.'s aerials also greatly outrange most of Wolf's aerials except for his b-air, which trades hits with R.O.B.'s f-air.

Wolf's main problem is that he is very easy to gimp (I'm not kidding about this). A ledgecamping R.O.B. will effectively neutralize most of Wolf's best approaches (it's much worse against Falco) and there's no real easy get around for Wolf without putting himself in the gimp zone for R.O.B.

A Wolf has to be really aggro against a R.O.B. to break through R.O.B.'s formidable defenses. Once the Wolf gets inside, he can wreak some real damage if the R.O.B. isn't fighting back properly (which may very well happen considering Wolfs don't seem to be as popular as Falcos and people may try to handle Wolf the same way as Falco, which they definitely should not). In other words, you have to keep getting in R.O.B.'s face. The reflector approach is not something a lot of R.O.B.s expect to work so well, and for a while R.O.B.s will underestimate the range and power of Wolf's b-air (similar to Donkey Kong's). But you have to keep overwhelming R.O.B. to stand a chance. Play loosey-goosey won't win you games against a character that, by nature, is designed to win by preventing the opponent from doing what he wants to do.

Also, R.O.B.s can deal a lot of damage surprisingly quickly. A lot of R.O.B.s play Brawl like tight-played poker, waiting for opportunities to present themselves. Since Wolf can have lots of holes where he leaves himself open, a R.O.B. can capitalize fairly quickly and turn what seemed like weak attacks into combos and projectile snipes that can really wear down Wolf. Sure, a "well-spaced Wolf" will do well, but what if the R.O.B. spaces himself well too? A Wolf's f-smash and f-tilt will clash with R.O.B.'s f-tilt and R.O.B.s f-tilt will hit Wolf before he can finish a d-smash. Plus, in the air, R.O.B.s fair is easy to space due to its huge disjointed hurtbox, whereas Wolf needs to space particularly well against R.O.B. to do well. The blindspot below R.O.B. will never become a problem to a good R.O.B. because a good R.O.B. will never let it become a problem, and if you think R.O.B. is weak from behind, then you have been hit enough by his b-air yet.

And any decent R.O.B. won't laser a space animal the moment the match starts. If you're in a closed in level like Yoshi's island, you might just be setting yourself up for being caught off-guard.

The ROB should focus on gimping wolf

and ROB's projectiles are better than wolf's

Turbo Ether said:

Wolf is better at straight up killing. I'm not sure what the matchup ratio is, but i'm starting to think they would make a good team.

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If the ROB saves his nair it can kill at around 100%


ROB also has a reflector: his Side-b, though it is not that useful because it leaves you open for so long.

But ROB's Nair is super telegraphed and therefore easy to airdodge.

@ Dragz

Any Wolf getting Bair'd out of sideB is doing it wrong. You can cancel it two different ways and Scar with it. Not many characters get this many recovery options from one move. How is that predictable in comparison to most characters?

Rob's projectiles require cooldown and charging. Wolf's is spammable and distance is not an issue at midrange, where Wolf likes to be. Reflector is just as viable for reflecting R.O.B's projectiles as any other reflector in the game. R.O.B trying to outcamp Wolf will easily have a harder time than he would against most characters.

You sound like one of many smashers that aren't aware of the beastly disjoint on Wolf's Fair. It often wins exchanges vs Marth and MK's aerials. Wolf's Fair vs R.O.B's should be tested.

Other than that, I agree that R.O.B wins the spacing game on the ground.

Who would win in a Wolf Fair vs. the blasters on Rob's bottom during Bair?

And Marth's tipped fair has more range than Wolf's Fair.

ike is solid said:

But ROB's Nair is super telegraphed and therefore easy to airdodge.

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I didn't say it wasn't easy to see coming, I just stated that it can kill.

Oh I know that, I was just saying that although yes, it can definitely kill, it won't be too easy to hit with.

Turbo Ether said:

@ Dragz

Any Wolf getting Bair'd out of sideB is doing it wrong. You can cancel it two different ways and Scar with it. Not many characters get this many recovery options from one move. How is that predictable in comparison to most characters?

Rob's projectiles require cooldown and charging. Wolf's is spammable and distance is not an issue at midrange, where Wolf likes to be. Reflector is just as viable for reflecting R.O.B's projectiles as any other reflector in the game. R.O.B trying to outcamp Wolf will easily have a harder time than he would against most characters.

You sound like one of many smashers that aren't aware of the beastly disjoint on Wolf's Fair. It often wins exchanges vs Marth and MK's aerials. Wolf's Fair vs R.O.B's should be tested.

Other than that, I agree that R.O.B wins the spacing game on the ground.

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I play Wolf. I know what he's capable of, including his f-air and his side+B. R.O.B.'s can outspace the fair (although more often than not, they will just exchange hits), scarring is extremely predictable, and canceling the side+B doesn't change the fact that he'll still fall into R.O.B.'s b-air's lingering hurtbox. Unless he's hugging the edge and he semi-scars, it's very predictable at which point Wolf is going to side+B, so a b-air is absurdly easy to plant.

Your best aerial option against R.O.B. is your b-air, but you don't want to waste it, so you pretty much need to save it up by risking yourself with your other aerials.

A decent R.O.B. won't let Wolf get into mid-range, plus R.O.B. is fairly decent in any range, so it's not like Wolf has an advantage at mid-range, at best he's squared evenly.

The gyro comes out very quickly, as does the laser, plus it only takes 1 second for the laser to recharge. Cooldown on his projectiles is not an issue for R.O.B. in the least.

R.O.B. does extremely well camping against wolf because his blaster isn't nearly as debilitating as Falco's. And camping does not mean sitting in a corner spamming projectiles. It means goading your opponent to approach, tossing him away, and plugging him with projectiles during the moments he can't fight back. Generally, Wolf should never have a change to use his reflector properly at all, since R.O.B. will never let him.

Also, a decent R.O.B. won't spam n-air, so when it does come out, you may not be expecting it.

To Ike:

B-air would win if the R.O.B. player has completely understood the mechanics of how b-air will push him away (a lot of R.O.B. players will overcompensate for it and get too close to use the b-air and get themselves hurt).

Wolf has a 0-lag f-air which is pretty good too. Ive found that wolf can out camp rob a lot of the time simply because of the spammableness of the pistol. Although I do agree that robs beam is pretty tough to reflect especially if he does it right after knocking you like a bunch of robs do. Wolf can nail rob pretty good with consecutive B-airs(only like 2 tho) if he can do it right.

In my opinion the matchup is 50-50 or 60-40 in robs favor but what do you guys think?


Im willing to fight anyone over the wifi if anyone wants more info!

Percentage wise, I think this is close, 55-45 or 60-40

If Wolf is scarring predictably, it's because the player is being predictable. If the opponent sets himself up to counter a scar, there's nothing stopping the Wolf from ledge hopping or tele-stepping on to the stage. This is still more options than rest of the cast. When Wolf is returning to stage, where are you standing that Wolt's sideB is "absurdly" easy to intercept with Bair? And from how high is the Wolf returning?

There's no reason to save Bair, especially with Wolf being extremely good at refreshing attacks anyway. Also, any attack that Wolf's Bair beats, his Fair also beats and than some, due to better priority.

A decent ROB won't let Wolf get into mid-range? Doesn't make sense. We're assuming the Wolf is also decent, and the nature of the game dictates that after exchanging hits, range between characters wildly changes.

Spammable blaster > any cooldown. Spammable blaster also inteferes with ROB's charging of the gyro. Just wondering, are you implying that Falco is the only character that outcamps ROB?



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As far as matchup ratio goes, i'm not sure. Imo, ROB is the easiest top tier to deal with, and as a Wolf/Snake player, I would rather use Wolf against ROB in tournament.

I honestly think that the matchup is 60:40. Rob is at an obvious advantage with his better recovery and better edgeguarding. That coupled with Rob's throws give him excellent positions for setting up those edgeguards...

Though I honestly believe Wolf can outcamp Rob, simply because of his reflector, if he didn't have that, Rob could easily outcamp Wolf. Of course, a smart Rob will make his projectiles unpredictable, however, if Rob is at a range that is beyond Wolf's blaster range, any Wolf with a good reaction time (Assuming there isn't any delay from WiFi) You can reflector the gyro -- it's still there, and Rob can't use it unless he gets within Wolf's blaster range, then he only has his 1 second laser to rely on. Which can get a little predictable =/

However, luckily Brawl isn't a campfest and people actually approach -- which both characters can do quite well. Rob has the advantage of space control with his Gyros, as does Wolf, with his lasers. Both have excellent range (Wolf's Bair, Rob's Ftilt) Rob has the advantage is the fastest Dsmash in the game, so the Wolf player has to space especially well in order to avoid that... That, along with the whole gimping ordeal.

Both characters can kill at around a hundred, though, Dsmash is a little easier to land than a Nair, but a Smart Rob won't spam it and will most likely be able to hit with it. So eh, once again, kinda even here.

Not sure exactly how the ranges compare.... I think Wolf has the advantage in the air (When he's not recovering) but Rob has the advantage on the ground with his Dsmash and Ftilt. And then of course there's the gimping of Wolf which Rob can do fairly easy... But a Smart Wolf will make it a little bit harder. All in all, I call the matchip 60:40.

ROB tougher than Snake? Maybe.

From my experience against wolf, the biggest nuisance is when the wolf recovers with a forward b that lines up with the ledge (obviously when ROB is to far or w/e to ledgehog). At that height, it is very difficult to edgeguard, and if ROB attempts to, he risks getting sweetspot-spiked. Wolf's forward b matches priority with ROBs fair and neither take damage (and wolf is not stopped). Instead, I like to use a nair so that wolf flies face-first into one of ROB's better killing moves. Airdodge that.
O btw, Wolf is easy to gimp when he uses his second jump early. Otherwise, gimping can be a challenge. Definitely do-able, but you shouldnt make it easy for us.

I have to agree with 55:45 or 60:40 in ROB's favor.

They're around equal in damage dealing on the ground and in the air, and their projectile games are about even against each other. With proper spacing, neither of them will have the upper hand over each other for long, but I give the nod to ROB since he is almost undeniably harder to finish off.

This is a very general summation that most of us can probably agree on.

As a Wolf and R.O.B mainer I have to agree that R.O.B has a slight advantage over wolf, 55:50 or 60:50 maximum, Wolf can space very well with F-smash, blaster is really good for pressureing R.O.B since no decent R.O.B player will use Arm rotor to reflect a blaster shot, Using reflector correctly you can avoid being juggled pretty effectively.

R.O.B is a floaty character, conbined with his bigget weakness (below R.O.B) makes him very easy to juggle if the Wolf player plays it smart.

Also lets notforget that Wolf's Spike is much better than R.O.Bs, conbine that with R.O.B's laggy Footstool animation you can decently edgeguard a R.O.B.

In my expiriance I have Baired and Shined R.O.Bs until they run out of fuel and fall helplessly to their deaths.

OK then, it seems to be agreed that ROB has the advantage here. I guesss 60:40 in his avour seems about right. I'll move on the the high tier characters a little later

If ROB has a 60/40 advantage, DDD should be moved up to at least 70/30. He's definitely tougher for Wolf. I still believe DDD is his hardest matchup overall.

Yea DDD is one of the hardest only because of his chaingrab. But IMO falco is the hardest, even without the chaingrab he gives wolf trouble.

Not really. Other than the chain grab, Falco isn't scary imo.

We covered them already. DDD is much easier to space than ROB, who outranges Wolf. Plus ROB beats Wolf in the air, something, that DDD barely does. And let's not forget, that your blaster stops Wadlle Dees. If you see how hard Wario, Bowser or DK get ***** by the King you'd know that 60:40 is very accurate.

i'd just like to point out that the gyro can also stop most projectiles (for a period of time)
correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure it stops wolf's as well
this is problematic if the ROB uses the gyro defensively
as for the reflecting, if the ROB correctly angles the laser, it will not reflect back into his face, basically making no real advantage for either player
as for killing, ROB's fsmash seems to be completely forgotten, because it kills even earlier than the n-air damage-wise
provided it is hard to hit with at times, it can be angled as well, causing for some trouble if the wolf tries to approach with an fair
and you also need to remember that ROB doesn't need a direct kill off the edge to kill his enemy, if you knock the wolf far enough from the edge, it makes recovering 10x harder for wolf, and if the wolf somehow spikes ROB, ROB can recover EASILY (as long as he's not at really high percents)
as for running out of fuel, a smart ROB player conserves fuel as much as possible, and has multiple ways of getting back to the edge (bair, jumping side-b, and obviously b-up)
but nonetheless, i agree that wolf doesn't do horribly against ROB, and has a somewhat decent chance at winning if he plays smart
60-40

Idk, in my experience, I have found that a sidestep-happy wolf is near impossible to hit with a fsmash... Something about wolf's animation makes timing ridiculously hard.
But yeah, angling the blaster is a good way to avoid a laser in the face. Usually, I aim downwards, which gives me two advantages. If wolf reflects it, it goes over my head (unless its fully charged). Second, if wolf decides to jump for some reason, it catches his feet in the jump animation.

Gheb_01 said:

We covered them already. DDD is much easier to space than ROB, who outranges Wolf. Plus ROB beats Wolf in the air, something, that DDD barely does. And let's not forget, that your blaster stops Wadlle Dees. If you see how hard Wario, Bowser or DK get ***** by the King you'd know that 60:40 is very accurate.

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Uh, DDD ***** those characters worse than 70/30 and he ***** Wolf too. DDD outranges Wolf more than ROB, who doesn't really have a range advantage at all. His Bair also beats all of Wolfs aerials except Fair, they trade. Wolf has no safe ground moves against DDD because of his range, it's chain grab to edge guard pretty easily. Not to mention what his chain grab does on walk off and wall stages. Waddle Dees also prevent blaster camping completely. Wolf has to play practically flawlessly, one mistake can result in a lost stock. 60/40 means a light counter. DDD also lives longer than ROB and kills better. Saying DDD is a light Wolf counter is absurd. Definitely his hardest matchup, but that's just my opinion.

I'd have to agree with Turbo on this one, DDD is among Wolf's hardest matchups. THE CHAINGRABBING NEVER ENDS. If you get grabbed, expect to be chained across the stage... Though a good trick is Bair (Purposely mis-spaced) and then a Fsmash xD However, let's not assume that any player will fall for some tricks... Generally DDD is kinda easy to approach, all of his ground moves leave him open =S So well spaced Bait and then punish... and then pressure more...

It's an annoying matchup, spacing is everything, don't get grabbed, always attack his Up B (Free damage), Save your Dsmash... don't get grabbed, it's not recommended you put out laggy moves, don't get grabbed.

I'd call it 70/30. It's NOT an easy matchup for Wolf. Like, on par with Falco and Metaknight.

70/30 for DDD? No way. Even the DDD boards haven't such a high number. Ther's is no justification for that right now. The CG puts the match-up in DDDs favour but that's it. MK is much worse

Alrighty then, how about a compromise? 65/35 The CG automatically puts it at 60/40. However, D3 has OTHER Attributes that give him the advantage in the match up. Perhaps not too much of an advantage, but an advantage nonetheless, he's fat, he outranges you with some moves and a few aerials, one of the few characters that CAN outcamp Wolf.

So what I'm basically saying is that it's 55/45 D3's favor without the chaingrab, and 65/35 with it, does this sound reasonable?

I can live with that ArcPoint... I mean DDD has the Waddle Dees and he outranges Wolf, plus CG.

OK, 65:35 for DDD then

Have we even done D3 yet, lol?

Yea we gotta make a thread for it i think. Even though I pretty much agree with 65/35

Well. It used to be in the "original" match-up thread, which is now the index. Just look it up. I've linked it

Well, now that that's fixed, I have one more thing to say about ROB...

I'm assuming a lot of you know about dribbling. It's where diddy kong rolls backwards and glide tosses downwards. ROB can do this with the gyro as well, and it's great for defense, NL's diddy does this in some videos IIRC. This negates blaster for a while, giving ROB time to laser you if you lasered at a bad time.

Oh, and ROB is similar to wolf with the many versatile playstyles thing. If you're prepared for all the tricks that ROB has, this battle really isn't as bad as it could be, besides the gimping. Know the matchup well, and it's definitely something around 60:40 ROB, maybe 55:45.