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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

Trapt497

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and Fsmash isnt a main killing move at all. It does incredible damage and knockback when its tippered (24% uncharged, more knockback than luigis fsmash) but if its not tippered its extremely weak, probably wont even kill until 130. Its long start up time just doesnt make it a useful KO move at all. Backthrow is #1, then maybe bair and uair close together. Id rate PKT2 more of a useful KO move than his fsmash
It's more reliable than, say, down smash (obviously) and many more. I'd say its a main KO move, along with the other ones you listed. Those you have listed are almost never used on the ground, so in ground combat f-smash would be a great KO'er. Its not useless. The tipper is very good and more useful than you give it credit for.

Though, I agree that the startup lag is annoying for not having much range to work with. And, as I said before, vs. Lucario, f-smash's range gets domitated by ours.

EDIT: Anyone disagree with my analysis of the matchup? (see post #991)
 

tedward2000

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Review time.

Ness.
The psychic little kid with yoyo tricks and back flips. The twerp, has a dictionary of PK (insert element here) moves, none of them shy of being used. The braver of the two coming from EarthBound, but uses more bats and yoyo's in his attacks then raw energy.

Bats to beat people, Mafia?

So, about all of Ness's B moves are PK whatever. PK fire, is the mostly commonly seen one out of the joyius group. When fired on the ground, a short ranged little bolt fires out, and lands creating a pillar of fire. Those caught in it, take damage. In the air, the bolt will fly from ness about about 45%'s, again, those caught, take damage.
PK crush exlpodes, and PK magnet is the omnomer of Aurashpere and Force Palms.

For other move-wise, Ness's fsmash is a semireflector. Not only does it rack up damage. But as a little joke, it will hit projectiles like baseballs with the baseball bat. This isn't baseball Nintendo, we get the joke, its not funny. Along with the ride, is Ness's yoyo (Dsmash and Upsmash) both, will hit in other directions besides down and up. So an "around the world" smash.

Aerials, God spike (downA) is just what the name implies. Its godly, and its not fun if your under it. Granted its hard to pull of with its awkward starting time, but once landed, those hit will plummet. The rest of his aerials are good, but on the short side, equal to his height.

Lucario's need to play it cool, and by range and better aerials, will have this match. But let Ness get that AS heal or the lucario not taking the PK thunder and letting Ness live, and he'll keep on chugging through.

This match up belongs to a smart lucario, but even then by a small amount. The tides can shift anytime.
-t2
 

manhunter098

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Well I would have to say you need to watch out for his u-air. Not that its going to be incredibly useful against Lucario since we have our d-air, but its definitely a kill move and it comes out pretty fast. Its got about as much knockback and speed as DKs u-air, but less range.

F-air is a pain in the ***. It doesnt really do much damage (unless the Ness tried to get all of the hits to land, but thats quite difficult) and Im not even really sure how well it can start combos, but its got a huge hitbox and good priority and it comes out very fast. Dont underestimate this move.
 

Browny

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Ness can full hop FF a double fair into an AAA pretty da.mn quick if you dont DI away quick enough.

and t2 whats with your review :/ you are missing out a lot of key elements in this matchup (bthrow, pkt2 for example) and otherwise are just saying what everyone already knows.
 

manhunter098

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I mentioned what I did mostly because a couple posts that would have seemed to be rather important left out what I considered information vital to understanding the matchup. Due to that I felt it important that said information be displayed in a way so as to be sure everyone would notice it, just in case. It wasnt intended to be a full review. Though I do put things in Lucario's favor for this matchup.
 

Timbers

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It's more reliable than, say, down smash (obviously) and many more. I'd say its a main KO move, along with the other ones you listed. Those you have listed are almost never used on the ground, so in ground combat f-smash would be a great KO'er. Its not useless. The tipper is very good and more useful than you give it credit for.

Though, I agree that the startup lag is annoying for not having much range to work with. And, as I said before, vs. Lucario, f-smash's range gets domitated by ours.
His main kill moves are back throw and bair.
 

Alus

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it seems ness will have to rely so much in his players skill with mindgames before he even has a chance with lucario...

im going to main Ness for a bit and learn to play with him....
 
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That's always a good idea. If you don't understand a character, pick that character up for a while and become familiar with their moves.

Anyways, t2's reviews aren't always there just to be uber informative. I like to see them at the top of every character. The match-up starts with a joke and review made by t2...yea, it's pretty cool. Then it goes into more detail.
 

Flagelants

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Offtopic i guess, sorry. Im just wondering, is no one using lucarios double team attack. Because that's the main reason why lucario is my seccond main at the moment.
 
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Huh wut? You use Lucario just because of Double Team? Wow...that's funny. DT is a very situational attack my friend.

Anyways, back on topic...twoskilld4u you are almost correct. Ness can't really mix up his game very much against you, but what he can do to you is very painful. Kinda evens it out.
 

Lucarioowl

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i use it alot i love the fact that you can manipulate it back to topic after seeing the reasoning and being a lucario main i think if ness can get the back throw or back air on a lucario at very high damages then they can win other than that lucario will pwn him
 

Trapt497

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Ness can full hop FF a double fair into an AAA pretty da.mn quick if you dont DI away quick enough.

and t2 whats with your review :/ you are missing out a lot of key elements in this matchup (bthrow, pkt2 for example) and otherwise are just saying what everyone already knows.
Full hop > f-air > ff > AAA sounds too hard for Ness to pull off because of the short range of AAA. But I could understand how it could. Not that it has much priority, I think there'd be other moves Ness'd prefer to use.

Oh and his review was fine. The whole point of a review is to go over what we already know but explain it, like he did. Who cares if he missed a couple points. No one's review is going to cover everything.

His main kill moves are back throw and bair.
Fine but the forward smash is not freakin useless.

Unless your playing melee. But thankfully the move got a buff. I don't care if its not a main KO move. It is freakin powerful and has great KO potential. Not as much and b-throw and b-air, I agree with that. But its up there in his moves having the most knockback. Its not useless.
 

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uh.....Ness' fsmash got WORSE in brawl.....except for the reflector on it


also some info: PKT2 kills Lucario without DI from the center of FD at 36%, with DI down at 32%, with DI up at 47%, and with DI up+towards stage at 48%. All sweetspotted


EDIT: lol and T2's review made me throw up a little in my mouth....it was kinda funny lol.....but really its called PK Flash
 

Sinz

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Don't get greedy and chase them off the stage to do any sheananigans.

Watch your spacing constantly, ness is a strong character. It is harder to keep your lead against him, than it is against most characters. Make sure to use double fsmashes, they tend to work pretty well. Use your fairs, and retreat while doing them. And come back and do an fsmash. This match is about spacing for Lucario.
 

Trapt497

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uh.....Ness' fsmash got WORSE in brawl.....except for the reflector on it


also some info: PKT2 kills Lucario without DI from the center of FD at 36%, with DI down at 32%, with DI up at 47%, and with DI up+towards stage at 48%. All sweetspotted


EDIT: lol and T2's review made me throw up a little in my mouth....it was kinda funny lol.....but really its called PK Flash
Ok I guess you would know more than anyone...I could have sworn it was more powerful in brawl. AAAHHGGGG *facepalm* Do you still think its a reliable KO-er??

Sorry we're a little ignorant :/
 

Ref

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lolwut? Want me to find the percents that Ganon kills Lucario with uptilt since we are talking about moves that don't really hit people?

To say PKT2 Never hits people is wrong. If you never got hit by PKT2 you never played a good Ness player off line. Ever been PK Thunder Swell Surprised? PKT2 does hit. You can even hit people with PKT2 when they are about to land. That statement shows you have no good Ness match up experience. Also I wouldn't be saying PKT2 never hits in front of Simna who hits with it tons of times. Use it well it'll hit. I'm sorry that you never played a good Ness player. All Simna was doing anyway was correcting some of the percent Kill rates. I went to tourneys and was able to hit people with PKT2.

Ness' forward smash did get worse. I'm pretty sure while it may be risky a Ganondorf could possible hit with the Up tilt if the player times it right.

Ness' forward smash will not be used as a KO-ER most of the time unless they really really knew what you were about to do.

Ness will most likely KO with a U air, PKT2, B air, B throw, or D air. That is the way Ness gets most of his KO's.
 

Timbers

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The only fact relevant to PKT2 and Ganon's utilt is that PKT2 can actually stun the opponent with PKT's tail and following into a PKT2. Ganon can't stun the opponent right before utilt's hitbox comes out.

Situational as hell, and Lucario's dair (or really any momentum altering move) should get you out of PKT2 traps much more easily than usual.
 

Negative_Two

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Ok I guess you would know more than anyone...I could have sworn it was more powerful in brawl. AAAHHGGGG *facepalm* Do you still think its a reliable KO-er??
From my small experience using Ness, the bat is rather slow, so he is better off using his back throw, Bair, and at slightly higher percents, Uair
 

Fizzle

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lolwut? Want me to find the percents that Ganon kills Lucario with uptilt since we are talking about moves that don't really hit people?
You just explained why people get hit by PKT2. PKT2's greatest asset is it's ability to make people think, "Wow, I'll never get hit by that" or "It's so slow; I'll just run up and punish."

Then stuff like this happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ss6YP6cTfg

or even in Melee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDrZpXVWnIc (halfway through vid)

PKT has, arguably, the most mindgame potential in the game.
 

dguy6789

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To say PKT2 Never hits people is wrong. If you never got hit by PKT2 you never played a good Ness player off line. Ever been PK Thunder Swell Surprised? PKT2 does hit. You can even hit people with PKT2 when they are about to land. That statement shows you have no good Ness match up experience. Also I wouldn't be saying PKT2 never hits in front of Simna who hits with it tons of times. Use it well it'll hit. I'm sorry that you never played a good Ness player. All Simna was doing anyway was correcting some of the percent Kill rates. I went to tourneys and was able to hit people with PKT2.
Yah.... no.

There are very few situations where PKT2 should hit anybody decent. If you hit someone with PKT2 all over the place, your opponent sucks, there is no justification for it. I could hit a noob with slow moves all day, that doesn't make it useful vs anyone good. And no, Simna isn't half as great as he makes himself and Ness out to be.

The Ness I play with on a regular basis is probably better than every Ness that posted in this thread save maybe Simna.
 

Conclusively

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If PKT2 was so conveniently mindgamed and used, Ness would be top tier because he'd have a move that kills at 50% at the highest, regardless of grab releases. Fail. It still takes opponent's mistakes as well as luck to land it.
 

Timbers

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I'm not denying it takes skill to land it, but it's certainly nothing that's going to be something you land often. Its very easily shielded and punished, and Lucario has a very high priority move to cancel any PKT that's trying to juggle him to set up for PKT2.

We were discussing Luigi not that long ago. His fire punch and PKT2 probably have the same success rate in landing, only Ness rocket is harder to punish.

Just stay on the stage. Rocket should rarely be killing you. Lucario really has everything needed to avoid Ness rocket except a faster fallspeed.
 

Browny

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Landing PKT2 isnt that difficult. if Ness anticipates an approach and SH backwards into a PKT2, its not easy to dodge it, and difficult to punish it. PKT2 also makes a decent edgeguard if he jumps off the stage and rockets back over the ledge, forcing you to airdodge and fall below the stage while he can edgehog. Of course you should never be caught beneath the stage since lucario can just float back, but its still a possiblity. dont underestimate it...
 

Fizzle

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Yeah, generally staying onstage and shielding is the best way to get past it. Only attack Ness if you're sure you can stop him. But a lot of the time it's a pretty bad idea. And, as Timbers said, even good Ness players won't be able to land it many times a match.

One move won't make Ness top tier (he's short ranged and his ground game is garbage), but a well-placed PKT2 can certainly turn the tides of a match in their favor.

Timbers, as far as I know, it's impossible to cancel out its tail. Hitting the head is much more difficult in Brawl, since PKT itself moves much quicker with tighter control. The ending lag of PKT2 is also much improved and harder to punish now.
 

Trapt497

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lolwut? Want me to find the percents that Ganon kills Lucario with uptilt since we are talking about moves that don't really hit people?
Everyone else is right. Your ignorance of a crucial move to Ness' gameplay is not based on anything.

If you hit someone with PKT2 all over the place, your opponent sucks, there is no justification for it.
You don't have to hit them all over the place. 1 Hit = 1 KO.
I could hit a noob with slow moves all day, that doesn't make it useful vs anyone good. And no, Simna isn't half as great as he makes himself and Ness out to be.

The Ness I play with on a regular basis is probably better than every Ness that posted in this thread save maybe Simna.
OK, I've agreed with you before on a lot of Lucario stuff, but this is drawing the line.

Every single word in that last post is ridiculous and nonsensical. You have just stated that the best Ness player in the world isn't as great as he says he is. Do you think you are better?

Oh, so your friend is only MAYBE better than Simna? He's better than EVERY OTHER NESS person here? Oh, I assume you've played all of them because you are so sure.

Go take your ignorance somewhere else. Or think about what you say first.

Understand that I respect you because you've had a lot of legitimate Lucario posts before but when it comes to insulting people it makes me mad. As much as I respect you I have 10x more for Simna. He destroyed everyone in Melee. And you said he wasn't half as good as he says he is.
 

Timbers

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djbrowny: It's only opinion. However, Having a Luigi force you to recover onstage with ES and fire uppercutting your ES lag is definitely more dangerous than a Ness putting himself in danger and having the somewhat-offchance of you getting in the way of his PKT, and having him SD. I'm sure there's other scenarios where Ness' rocket would shine more than the uppercut, but that one certainly isn't it.

Fizzle: I meant the head. Ness can't juggle very well, if at all, if he's only using the tail to try and juggle you. Ending lag is still a considerable amount. Lucario is able to dsmash a PKT2 out of shield.
 

dguy6789

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Everyone else is right. Your ignorance of a crucial move to Ness' gameplay is not based on anything.
No, the majority of people who posted in this thread are wrong. Scrubs who have never played against a skilled player and have never placed decently in a real tourney have opinions that aren't very valuable to this discussion.

You don't have to hit them all over the place. 1 Hit = 1 KO.
Just like with Luigi's missfire or Ganon's uptilt. It isn't something you can rely on.

Every single word in that last post is ridiculous and nonsensical. You have just stated that the best Ness player in the world isn't as great as he says he is. Do you think you are better?
First of all, Simna wasn't even the best Ness player in Melee, he was merely self proclaimed. Numerous Ness players performed just as well as he did. He is also self proclaimed best Ness in the world in Brawl.

Oh, so your friend is only MAYBE better than Simna? He's better than EVERY OTHER NESS person here? Oh, I assume you've played all of them because you are so sure.
My friend probably isn't quite as good as Simna. I can guarantee he's better than the people who posted in here though. It's very easy to tell how good someone is by the nonsense or lack there of in their posts.

Understand that I respect you because you've had a lot of legitimate Lucario posts before but when it comes to insulting people it makes me mad. As much as I respect you I have 10x more for Simna. He destroyed everyone in Melee. And you said he wasn't half as good as he says he is.
Simna destroyed no more people in Melee than I did... He was merely a top level Ness player. Special among those few, but as far as top Melee players in general went, he was nothing special.
 

Fizzle

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Fizzle: I meant the head. Ness can't juggle very well, if at all, if he's only using the tail to try and juggle you. Ending lag is still a considerable amount. Lucario is able to dsmash a PKT2 out of shield.
I know you did. Tailwhip combos into a PKT head and enables a slight juggle. Luc's dair won't cancel out a tail, and because of how floaty he is it's a little more difficult to escape it. Of course, you could just airdodge through the tail, but, again, with Lucario's slow falling speed Ness can just turn it around and hit again.

It's rare that anyone will get juggled by PKT, but I'm just proving that Lucario doesn't really have it better than anyone else in that aspect.

Dsmash out of shield will work, but only if the Ness is close. Often times Ness will go so far through your shield with PKT2 that countering is impossible.
 

Fizzle

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True, but only if Ness is hitting with the weaker part of PKT2. If he sweetspots it, he'll travel about 2-2 1/2 body widths behind you, which is too far for a dsmash. Drop shield to running grab would work in that case, but I'm not sure if Ness could spotdodge that or not. Either way you'll be taking a nasty blow to your shield.

Nonetheless, I think we've covered Ness's killing moves well. Any ideas for stages? If you're looking to screw up Ness's PKT, then Battlefield or Luigi's Mansion might work. It's difficult to maneuver PKT around platforms in Battlefield, and using PKT in Luigi's Mansion is hard enough. Lylat's sloping edges might be able to mess up his recovery a bit.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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wow dguy....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Also its not nice to do no research and just say im self-proclaimed whatever...and i would like to know aobut these melee nesses who had similar records to mine...

i dont understand why the ppl that talk about me like this are all from florida.....lol


anyway comparing PKT2 to volcano kick or misfire or rest or falcon punch or D3's fsmash, or Ike's Fsmash, or Snake's Fsmash, or any smash fully charged is a HUGE JOKE because PKT2 is easier to land than all of those moves. It doesn't even have to be a novelty to work! If you are regularly fighting a Ness who isn't hitting you with PKT2 then that means 1 or more of 3 things is happening:
-You are using a character with a good defense against it(Lucario isnt one of these characters).
-Your Ness opponent isnt trying.
-Your Ness opponent isnt good enough.


Taking into account all the different characters, Ness' PKT2 is a viable enough attack that Ness players should land the attack on avergae 1.6 times per every 2 matches. This number can vary depending on what characters are more popular in that Ness' region (more D3s=more hits, more GWs=fewer hits).


EDIT: and LOL at "no more ppl than you did" you have Nnoooo idea what you are talking about

also regarding PK Thunder: using it to juggle can work but only for a few hits cause Lucario will be coming down faster than its putting him back up(even with how floaty he is). If Ness is using it good then he will be aiming to tailwhip you and airdodging the tail generally means landing directly onto the head. A well-controlled pk thunder is almost impossible to airdodge. If you are a good distance away from ness horizontally and he is trying to pk thunder you what you can do(since he is immobile in the pk thunder animation) is use moves you wouldnt otherwise use that might help you get to the ground(maybe extremespeed) so you can shield it(sheilding it pretty mucht he best defense against pk thunder of any kind)

Watch out if he is close to you doing it tho...make sure that you have enough time to get to the ground and shield or move somewhere because he can quickly change a juggle into a pkt2

also...im not a lucario player myself but from my experience lucario players don't use sideB unless they are grabbing with it....so yeah Ness can psi magnet force palm.....but not the grab of it....so thats something that doesnt really matter in the matchup i think





EDIT TWO: ALSO about stages. Mansion is a GREAT Ness stage. His recovery isnt really hurt there, but PK FIRE is waaaay too good. Yoshi's Island is bad for Ness' recovery but good for offense on the stage. Lylat is a little bad for recovery(not much) but the slants make PK Fire unusable in some situations.

Platforms like those on: Frigate, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Battlefield, Halberd(and many more) are some of Ness' best tools for landing successful PKT2 hits. Like i said before this is a really even matchup...if there are any stages you should NOT pick vs. Ness they are:
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Corneria
-Pirate Ship
(yeah i know some tournaments ban some of those stages, but they shouldnt....)
 

Samuelson

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Aren't there things called shields or spot dodges in this game that can prevent a Ness from landing a PKT2? I think that PKT2 is really situational. If you get hit by PKT2 you would either have to be a noob, dumb or not paying attention IMO.

Or maybe you can hit them with it if you have really good mindgames!

:)
 

Simna ibn Sind

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Let me straighten this out....in Melee characters moved faster in general than in Brawl...also, PK thunder moved about half the speed it does in brawl....also, pk thunder's tail was a great deal shorter in melee

it was still quite possible with the utmost precision and intuition to hit sum1 with pkt2 in Melee (and they didnt have to be a noob)

PKT2 is WAAAAAAY better off in brawl than it was in melee. It kills earlier, its part of a combo, and its in general easier to land.

most(like 75%) pkt2 attempts should be towards targets who are in the air, so shielding/sidestepping isnt an option, but hitting a grounded target DOES work (and sidestepping in general isnt a good idea vs. pkt2....shield is good tho)

No noobs necessary


(mindgames help, but mostly u need decisiveness and confidence in the attack)
 

dguy6789

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wow dguy....you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Don't I?

Also its not nice to do no research and just say im self-proclaimed whatever...and i would like to know aobut these melee nesses who had similar records to mine...
Umbreon Mow, Angry Lobster, ThaBettaPlaya, all on or around your level in Melee with Ness.

anyway comparing PKT2 to volcano kick or misfire or rest or falcon punch or D3's fsmash, or Ike's Fsmash, or Snake's Fsmash, or any smash fully charged is a HUGE JOKE because PKT2 is easier to land than all of those moves. It doesn't even have to be a novelty to work! If you are regularly fighting a Ness who isn't hitting you with PKT2 then that means 1 or more of 3 things is happening:
-You are using a character with a good defense against it(Lucario isnt one of these characters).
-Your Ness opponent isnt trying.
-Your Ness opponent isnt good enough.
Care to give a couple situations where the move is reliable? I have yet to hear one. All you do is talk about how numerous they are without giving examples. BS on PKT2 being easier to land than Ike fsmash.

Taking into account all the different characters, Ness' PKT2 is a viable enough attack that Ness players should land the attack on avergae 1.6 times per every 2 matches. This number can vary depending on what characters are more popular in that Ness' region (more D3s=more hits, more GWs=fewer hits).
Where do you get these kinds of made up statistics?

EDIT: and LOL at "no more ppl than you did" you have Nnoooo idea what you are talking about
You have this better than thou attitude when you are nothing special in either game as far as the big picture is concerned. Posting the most or yelling the loudest that "I am the best Ness" does not make it so. All you do is over rate yourself and over rate Ness. You must be pretty **** good, I mean Ness is 31st in tournament standings out of all the characters currently, so you must be placing pretty well. Go back to the Ness boards where everything is magical and happy because Ness has the advantage in pretty much every matchup. We're trying to have a real discussion here.
 

Timbers

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1.6 times per every 2 matches.
..no way.


I've been secretly agreeing with (most of) what you've said, but that's definitely exaggerating it.

Once every 3-4 games is a lot more accurate...unless you're playing with people who continuously try attacking Ness out of his rocket.

I mean. Unless you're playing a character lacking tons of aerial DI, I don't understand how you even came up with that.

Ness' sweetspot is like 2/5 of the initial rocket, right? Is landing on the edges of the stage not a safe idea now? I mean, I play the matchup mostly with ROB (I like ROB's fair and gyro in this matchup, don't hate >_>) so it's pretty ideal for ROB to land on the ledge or relatively far away from the opponent as to not be taken advantage of due to his blindspot beneath him.

I've been hit with maybe one or two rockets? And both times were due to me being overconfident in gimping them. Not because I got mindgamed or was hit with some obscene amount of precision.

That was merely me playing ********.

I don't deny that youll be landing one of these puppies every once in a while, but saying you're taking out 1/4 of their stocks is certainly overdoing it.
 
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