Lucario Vs. G&W (Match-Up Thread Export)

~Rotation 11~ Mr. Game & Watch (pg. 57-65)

Mr.2D Stealing mai bucket, back for another run. He surprised us all when He was in another run in Brawl. Surprised us again with improvements. Surprise me one more time and I'll!!...
(Surprise)

Mr. Game and Watch is just a surprise in a half. Deemed bad in the beginning, He has made quite a breakthrough in today's running for top tier. He's more of a paper tank then a glass one. The question is, what game does he come from and why does that make him important?



Besides that, G&W is a terror. Mind bending priority and a plethora of attacks to combat almost everyone in the cast. No one is safe, lock the kids in the basement, grab your sword and pray you dont see a 9.

The moves that are most noteworthy is his B-air and Dthrow.
Dthrow is a get out of jail free card for G&W. It allows him to pull anything he wants on you, anything. So its a instant-tech. If the G&W is smart he'll pull out a smash, if he's risky he'll SideB and pray for a 9.
Now, the infamous turtle. The bane of everyone, and the third arm of G&W. It shieldstabs, it racks damage, its great for approaching. How many other moves do you know does that? Not many. This move you not stand and take it like a man, you run like a girl.

In the Lucario match-up, Da bucket is the anti-cario. The Down-B (bucket) will absorb aura from any angle, and it auto locks. 3 Fp's or AS's and G&W can through the deathly water. Don't let him fill up the bucket, and if you let him fill it, DON'T GET HIT. Any AS shot from a distance is going to do nothing.

Game and Watches recovery was improved too. It goes straight up, and can rack damage, and then G&W will float down back to safety. Don't try to gimp, it won't work.
-tedward2000


Behavior:

• Game & Watch has a bunch of moves that stop Baby Aura spheres, and a few moves that stop weak aura spheres. He can cancel BAS with a simple dash attack, f-tilt, d-tilt, aerials, as well as the dreaded bucket. I would recommend to not even try Aura Sphere against him on the stage, unless you're absolutely certain it will hit. When he rushes, be prepared for a grab set up into something else, RAR B-Air, F-air, or the basic dash attack. His moves have disjointed hitboxes, so watch out for that. Be aware of his down throw on edges, it can be used to spike if you're almost off a platform or the stage itself. Shield most of his attacks as he approaches, spotdodge B-Air and punish the little ending lag with a forward tilt or up tilt. Trying Jab-Jab-FP is nearly useless once you both are past 10%, because Game & Watch is extremely light and can probably bucket your FP Flame. His Dash Attack has pretty bad lag, so you might be able to get off a Forward Smash if he misses badly. Shield grabs work against dash attack as well.
  
  In the air, watch out for ALL of his aerials. They are all extremely good. Up-Air is pretty good for mindgames, but not that great for killing. If you see him starting to do Up-Air, Down-Air immediately. If you aren't close enough for Down-Air to hit, airdodge but DO NOT JUMP. Sometimes if you jump right as the puff of air hits you, you can get star KOed at extremely low percents. For his F-Air and B-Air, try to space yourself as much as possible. Try B-Airs and N-airs instead of the common F-air, and follow up with a D-Air or try to juggle with Up-Air. Remember Game & Watch is extremely light, so you won't be able to juggle him as well. His Down-Air can spike around where he pulls out his key. Some Game & Watches I've played spam this move like hell. Airdodge, then fastfall into a D-Air. If Game & Watch fastfalls his down-air, it actually slow falls him, so watch out for that. Don't always expect a plummenting G&W.
  
  His smashes have rediculous KO potential. They all kill extremely early. Don't bother Double Teaming unless he does an Up-Smash and you're sure your DT will hit. His smashes have way less range than yours, so stutterstep a F-Smash to punish his bad lag after his F-Smash and U-Smash. D-Smash comes out pretty quickly, so just attempt to shield grab it.
  -Conclusively
• Now, G&W's LOOOOVE their dair. The key is too cool. I did not say too good. It kinda sucks, actually. They just like it because it makes them feel like either Sora or Link. They have an obsession with flying through the air towards the ground at high speeds, or they can just cancel it and use the key but descend at normal speed. That's about the only mindgame it can be good for. If they auto cancel it then you probably won't be able to shield grab them, but you don't wanna be doing that anyways. All you have to do with the key is space yourself away from his general attack. If they auto cancel it, then you can try running in(as long as you're not too far away) with a Force Palm. The fsmash is probably too laggy to hit unless you space really, really well, so maybe ftilt. If you are really good with spacing then try an up tilt as they land. You have so many options, it's laughable. Again, just don't fear it. Lucario's usmash eats through it as well, so remember that. Again, that requires good spacing. If you do try and shield the key because you simply have no other choice or because you really want to, then he'll probably follow it up with a dsmash. Their second favorite combo, so watch out for that. If you shield it then they'll try to grab you out of it and do another dsmash. Never saw that coming.
  -Erich
• First, the bucket will obviously shut down most AS usage and it will eat up FP flames. Despite the lag that comes from the first TWO absorptions (lag is significantly cut down on the 3rd absorption), I will definately take a hit in exchange for charging up a 0-death attack.
  Second, G&W kill Lucario very, VERY quickly compared to other characters. All of G&W's smashes and his Fair offstage are brutal and can kill Lucario at ~90% with ease. This really weakens one of Lucario's greatest attributes; his Aura. Lucario preys on characters that struggle at KOing him because he becomes beastly at ~120%, but this isn't the case against G&W.
  Third, G&W's Uair > Lucario's Dair. Lucario's Dair is such a leet move because of its range, power, spammability, and ability to stop his inertia. Unfortunately for Lucario, G&W's Uair nullifies Lucario's Dair hardcore because of the wind push.
  Lucario is also in trouble when he's recovering. G&W will latch on to the edge and be safe because ES has no hitbox. This will force Lucario to wallcling where he can be nailed with a slowfall Dair spike, an Up B to push him back offstage, or some other attack. Basically, don't get Dsmashed by G&W.
  Lucario generally has no problems with killing because of his jab (every hit refreshes stale moves) and his insanely fast grab attack. He'll be hard pressed having to LAND a kill move on G&W because his smashes are telegraphed (but boy do they have amazing reach and duration) and G&W's recovery is nearly impossible to gimp. If you're certain you can land it, Double Team is a very good kill move on G&W when both %s of characters are in triple digits.
  Due to the nature of G&W's attacks (huge disjointed hitboxes, very long duration of said hitboxes, high priority, low lag, and IASA frames) Lucario is going to be in for a very, very hard matchup against a good G&W.
  -cutter

Fundamental Moves:

• Bair & F-air: G&W's best arials, and with good reason. He uses these to start combos and just to rack up quick damage. Can bring your Damage Percent up fast, and can stop our SH>Fair approaches. We can stop these arials with some DT's or just by escaping with Bair.
  
• Frying Pan: His only projectile. Spaces and edgeguards with this. Can stop our baby AS's, and mess up our Extremespeed a lot. Throw a fully charged AS in his face, or when he's spamming it, try DTing into it.
  
• Fsmash & Dsmash: Really powerfull attacks. Mainy uses Fsmash for KO'ing and Dsmash with his throws. Fsmash comes out very quick, and Dsmash can send you either up or sideways. Quickly dodge the Fsmashes if you aren't stunned or something, and tryDI'ing your way out of his Dthrow>Dsmash combo.
  
• Bucket: His strongest move. Used to eat our AS's, no matter what size it is. KO's you at low percentages easily, and can play mindgames with it. Try shooting your AS's at him when he's stunned, or try tricking him into using it.
  -Trela

Match-Up: 40:60 (Disadvantage)


How to Win:

• Lucario, surprisingly to many, has quite a few options against G&W. Not on the whole, but in specific situations. G&W's turtle can be a problem for a lot of people. I'm gonna tell you right now that your problem with it is most likely you try and shield it and then either grab or attack. That's not gonna work, sorry. Your problem is easily fixable though! It eats your shield like crazy and it has too many hitboxes, plus you have horrible grab range so you won't shield grab him anyways. You need your shield for things like the key and especially the fair. All you need to do to beat the turtle is stay just barely out of its range. It infuriates the G&W's so much, because you're right on the tip of their range but they just can't quite seem to reach you with their favorite move. If you play them like this, they'll use their bair over and over and over again. You can do many things to them when they use the turtle. You can: 1.) Jump over the turtle and dair their face, or 2.) you can space an fsmash and hit them with it, as it does have more priority than the turtle does(Lawlawlawlawlawlawl), or 3.) you can shoot a fully charged AS at them, which also eats through their bair at any percentage(hahahahaha). It has to be fully charged though, it can't be a NFAS(Nearly Full Aura Sphere). That is the most reliable way to get through it because if you're not careful with your spacing and your timing, the turtle will jump over your fsmash. You could also 4.) bait them to get closer to you and do a DT but that's kinda risky, or 5.) bait them and roll behind them as they do the turtle so that you are behind them while they are still in the air and then punish as you see fit. The turtle is a piece of cake to get around if you've ever experimented with it. Just don't fear it. That's all. Don't challenge it and don't shield it.
  
  Now...the other thing that people fear G&W for. The dreaded dthrow to dsmash combo. Too bad it doesn't work on Lucario. EVER. However, Timbers was right when he said they can tech chase an up smash. That very rarely happens though. Usually they just go straight to the dsmash because it's so much faster. If you roll away immediately then they can't hit you with it. If they tech chase you, they better have the timing of a machine if they want to hit you with that up smash, because you can put your shield up and block it if they're not fast enough, which they probably won't be. Also and this is the best thing to do in this situation(other than just don't get grabbed), try to tech the dthrow. Yes it's possible. Please go practice it, because it's very easy to do and amazingly useful. Plus right now most people don't really know that you can tech it, so it'll be a bit of a surprise. If you can get the timing down on that tech, this whole paragraph was pretty much pointless. G&W will suddenly be a WHOLE LOT easier to fight, and they'll hate you for it. But who cares? It makes their dthrow pretty much useless.
  
  The bucket kills in one hit. So be very smart about using AS. NEVER shoot BAS. That's just a very stupid idea in this match-up and if you think that you can shoot one and have him absorb it, then punish him in his lag, you are so very wrong. That won't ever happen. Always have a fully charged AS ready, so that when you see an opening, you can just fire away. NFAS's aren't quite as useful in this match-up as other matches, simply because of the bucket and they don't eat through the bair either. If G&W is off the ledge, still be very cautious about it, because they'll pull their bucket out their too. Their recovery is very good, so they really don't have to worry about it. The best time to use it is when they are lying on the ground from not teching(for example, from a Force Palm or fthrow) and as they roll up or get up launch it at them. Again be wary of spacing, because if you're too far away they'll just get up and use the bucket. As I mentioned somewhere earlier, you can also use it to eat through their turtle.
  
  And now the uair. G&W's uair is ********. It not only prevents you from landing, but it also replenishes his moves if he has stale moves. That really "BLOWS."(Bad pun alert!) If he keeps you in the air with that move, don't worry about it, just kinda float around and go with the flow. As long as you're that far above him, he can't hit you. Just stay calm because you will probably want to panic, as he is controlling your movement. You're gonna have to come down sometime and when you do be ready for his attack and use your awesome dair or something else. Please don't air dodge because he will punish you for it.
  -Erich
• Gaw's only arguable weakspot is above him, and his uair still covers that really well. It's perhaps even more difficult to deal with than any other uair in the game. It forces you to the edge or land next to him, which is definitely bad.
  
  The only spacing tool you have in this match is fsmash. I would really never recommend rolling into GaW. If you're going to punish his bair, do it by airdodging the turtle and then dairing on top of him.
  -Timbers
• Roll spam sucks, big time. If you approach too much with the turtle, they will probably punish with a spaced fsmash or roll to jab etc. If you approach w/ nairs overhead, they can probably utilt as thats really fast. Also the upsmash beats the key. On paper, lucario has a lot of crap to work around, but they can be extremely annoying. Getting buckets will help alot, as there is no good upsmash of lucario's to punish you hard for it. If they are really close they could fsmash, but i just wouldn't absorb something thaaat close. So basically forcing them to approach you is the best bet.
  -omegablackmage

Recommended Stages:

• Pictochat: This stage is HUGE. It is massive horizontally, so you'll live uber long here, and it has a relatively high ceiling. And you have the ability to abuse the stage hazards as much as he does. Also, no tilts in the stage.
  
• Luigi's Mansion: This stage is good for Lucario in general. If you have good DI and you don't destroy the house, this can be tech city and help you survive the dsmash, usmash, fair, all his deadly moves.
  -Erich
  
• Rainbow Cruise: G&W's playground. You will get *****. Trust me.

--It is not necessary to post here, but if you feel anything is missing, please do. DO NOT post information pertaining to G&W in the stickied thread.

I think you should add stuff about what OBM said, excessive rolling away from G&W is going to frustrate him to no end

Done and done. A lot of info was posted this week, so if there's anything else I missed, be sure to let me know.

I don't have the chance to go through everything, but I do agree that OBM's post held a lot of truth to it. Maybe you paraphrased what he said, but I didn't see his name quoted anywhere.

Just saying, his post is very informative I feel.

Nah, I got him in there.

I put him in the "how to win" section. Maybe I should move it...

Nice work jeepy.

This actually helped me. Congratulations.

His smashes have rediculous KO potential. They all kill extremely early. Don't bother Double Teaming unless he does an Up-Smash and you're sure your DT will hit. His smashes have way less range than yours, so stutterstep a F-Smash to punish his bad lag after his F-Smash and U-Smash. D-Smash comes out pretty quickly, so just attempt to shield grab it.
-Conclusively

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Actually, attempting to punish G&W's Smashes is the last thing you should do under most circumstances. All of his Smashes have only ten frames of ending lag, which is EXTREMELY low. They are also totally safe on block.

[*]Now, G&W's LOOOOVE their dair. The key is too cool. I did not say too good. It kinda sucks, actually.

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You're wrong. It's literally one of the best D-airs in Brawl. It's insane at doing damage, has ridiculously low landing lag, causes him to fall really fast, and has ridiculous priority. Slowfalled D-airs are really gay when used for ledgeguarding too. If not too stale, it's an aerial that actually can kill too.

You didn't cover anything on the D-tilt. This is arguably one of G&W's best attacks on the ground. It's really gay to work around because of the ridiculous hitbox, amazing IASA frames that have zero ending lag, ability to cancel projectiles, coming out on frame 6, and sheer horizontal knockback which can get you off the stage fast.

Also I will point out NO smart G&W will ever D-throw D-smash in this matchup. They will Jab, D-tilt, F-tilt, or techchase you. They will also never use Judgement unless they are screwing around. Or, if you're Cosmo, he'll U-throw you. G&W happens to be the single most powerful character in Brawl at punishing people above him. His options above him are just too good. N-air, U-air, and Up-B are too good.

Nah...it's not that good, compared to the rest of his moves. Lucario outranges it by a lot, and you can punish it easily. Especially since it's so pathetically obvious that you're going to do it. You only quoted the beginning of my long analysis of the move. If you read the rest, you would understand my reasoning behind why I said that. It really is not that good compared to the rest of G&W's arsenal, especially when you use it on the stage, which is very probable.

Wow...I don't know what G&W's you play buddy. Every G&W I've ever played WILL at least once or twice use their dthrow to dsmash combo. And if they jab you, or d/ftilt you, they won't hit you, because you'll just tech away from it. Tech chasing doesn't last forever either. IF they get it off in the first place.

I think that, while some of your points hold truth, you are also not considering that this is G&W vs. Lucario. It's different for each character.

And yes, the dtilt is a very good move. I talked a VERY LITTLE bit about it. But no, I didn't really cover it. My post was long enough as is. And I think that you're exaggerating the effectiveness of the dtilt. It doesn't have as much range as his other moves, so you can just sit there and fsmash G&W over the top of it. It doesn't have as much priority as you might think. Or we could just jump over it and dair them. Not that bad.

I played this matchup today. Its ****ing hard. You have to bide your time and wait for openings. Lucario requires patience as it is, but this is a really obnoxious matchup. I wouldn't recommend anyone to both trying, just counterpick.

Erich said:

Nah...it's not that good, compared to the rest of his moves. Seriously, if you think the key is good. IT SUCKS.

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I stopped reading right there. -_-

Erich said:

Nah...it's not that good, compared to the rest of his moves. Seriously, if you think the key is good. IT SUCKS. Lucario outranges it by a lot, and you can punish it easily. Especially since it's so pathetically obvious that you're going to do it. You only quoted the beginning of my long analysis of the move. If you read the rest, you would understand my reasoning behind why I said that. It really is not that good compared to the rest of G&W's arsenal, especially when you use it on the stage, which is very probable.

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Just because it's predictable doesn't mean it's bad. Like seriously, anyone knows that when Snake is walking towards you, or if he shields your attacks, he's GONNA F-tilt you. Is it bad? HELL NO.

I read your reasoning. It's wrong. Good G&W's don't just simply approach with it and drop on your shield like an idiot. What they will do is pressure you with it after using something like a fullhopped F-air, which will first take a chunk out of your shield. If you keep holding your shield, by then it will be pretty worn down. If G&W' D-airs you THEN, it is very likely to shieldstab you. Either because the D-air will hit your body poking out of the shield, or because the ground hitbox will nick you.

His D-air also makes him ridiculously hard to juggle, you must keep in mind. It beats like 90% of all attacks, which is insane.

Slowfalled D-airs are also really really gay to work around when you're recovering. Footstool -> D-air is also UNBLOCKABLE.

Wow...I don't know what G&W's you play buddy. Every G&W I've ever played WILL at least once or twice use their dthrow to dsmash combo. And if they jab you, or d/ftilt you, they won't hit you, because you'll just tech away from it. Tech chasing doesn't last forever either. IF they get it off in the first place.

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Holy **** this is perhaps the worst argument I've seen so far. NO JOKE. You are playing BAD G&Ws. The smart ones know exactly who they can D-throw D-smash. I'm one of them. =)

However, the smarter ones will U-throw you, where you are more helpless. ^_^

Also your guide is wrong about saying G&W's weak point is above him. Actually that is by far his STRONGEST point. G&W by far is like the single best character in the game at punishing anything above him. He has two aerials that cover above him that do 17%. His U-air unstales his attacks. His Up-B has invul frames PLUS ridiculous priority, and cancels into more aerials.

And yes, the dtilt is a very good move. I talked a VERY LITTLE bit about it. But no, I didn't really cover it. My post was long enough as is. And I think that you're exaggerating the effectiveness of the dtilt. It doesn't have as much range as his other moves, so you can just sit there and fsmash G&W over the top of it. It doesn't have as much priority as you might think. Or we could just jump over it and dair them. Not that bad.

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G&W's D-tilt cancels a lot of attacks and has ZERO ending lag. It's very fast coming out on frame 6. It outranges Lucario's jab I'm pretty sure, and it most certainly will make it extremely hard for Lucario to approach with a grab or aerial. Not to mention defense against Aura Spheres.

It has a ****load of range. You don't know what you're talking about. Like seriously, stop playing Melee. <<

I highly doubt that one of G&W's best ground attacks isn't a threat against Lucario. Vs Snake and his BS tilts is a different story however. Really, the only time you'll ever punish it is if a G&W is really dumb and starts spamming them repeatedly. No, it doesn't work that way. He will use one and watch what you are doing. Remember, the attack has like ZERO ending lag, so after the hitbox is gone, he gets to do anything he wants to. Holy hell.

lol at calling snakes tilts BS, while G&W uair/nair are supposedly fine. theyre all equally broken

I never said G&W has a weak spot above him. Don't know where you got that. I did say that being above G&W is the one place you should be truly afraid in this match-up. And yes, I covered that his uair replenishes stale moves.

And I'm not arguing that the key sucks as a move, or at least I'm not TRYING to argue that(I'm gonna go edit my post). I'm arguing that when compared to the rest of his arsenal, he's got better moves to choose from. And I wasn't arguing on the dthrow thing, if you didn't notice. I was simply stating a fact. You're almost as bad as Simna man, calm down. Don't go looking for an argument.

Here's what I'm trying to say...the key is more punishable than many of his other moves. Just like Snake's ftilt is punishable. If I know what you're going to do then I can think of more ways around it.

My reasoning on the key doesn't say that G&W's will "approach with it and fall like an idiot." No, why would you use the key to approach again? Now, offstage...it's a very scary move. But on stage? It's not that scary. And I don't see why you would still be shielding after the fair, so really the fair to dair thing shouldn't work. It could if your opponent sat there and shielded all day, but that probably won't happen against a SMART Lucario. I do agree that it can stop people from juggling though. BUT I also did not say to juggle G&W anywhere in my review. Being patient is a very important thing in this match-up.

And you can't dthrow to dsmash ANYONE in the game, if your opponent is smart.

And the dtilt...I'm not saying it's not an evil move. But it has less range than a lot of his other moves. IF you spam it, we can punish you. If not, then we can observe you just as you are observing us. I'm pretty sure it outranges our jab, but the fsmash has WAAAAAY more range than it and the ftilt MIGHT have more.

Mmmm...this is a good discussion. G&W's in my area are apparently not as good as in your area, eh?

Erich said:

And I'm not arguing that the key sucks as a move, or at least I'm not TRYING to argue that(I'm gonna go edit my post). I'm arguing that when compared to the rest of his arsenal, he's got better moves to choose from. And I wasn't arguing on the dthrow thing, if you didn't notice. I was simply stating a fact. You're almost as bad as Simna man, calm down. Don't go looking for an argument.

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Why would I Dthrow/Dsmash a heavyweight?

Here's what I'm trying to say...the key is more punishable than many of his other moves. Just like Snake's ftilt is punishable. If I know what you're going to do then I can think of more ways around it.

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That's what makes G&W so good though. You know he's going to be using moves like Bair, Dair, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. and you can try your best to try and get around them, but he'll still be able to get you.

Dair has a nice disjointed hitbox with extreme priority. It has an AoE-like hitbox that makes it even harder to punish.

My reasoning on the key doesn't say that G&W's will "approach with it and fall like an idiot." No, why would you use the key to approach again? Now, offstage...it's a very scary move. But on stage? It's not that scary. And I don't see why you would still be shielding after the fair, so really the fair to dair thing shouldn't work. It could if your opponent sat there and shielded all day, but that probably won't happen against a SMART Lucario. I do agree that it can stop people from juggling though. BUT I also did not say to juggle G&W anywhere in my review. Being patient is a very important thing in this match-up.

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Or... G&W can slowfall Dair to feint someone trying to stop it on the ground and get nailed by the second auto-fastfall Dair. Slowfalling Dair and fact that it is tough to punish sets G&W's Dair apart from other stall-and-fall aerials.

And you can't dthrow to dsmash ANYONE in the game, if your opponent is smart.

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Correct. Any character can tech the throw and avoid the Dsmash.

And the dtilt...I'm not saying it's not an evil move. But it has less range than a lot of his other moves. IF you spam it, we can punish you. If not, then we can observe you just as you are observing us. I'm pretty sure it outranges our jab, but the fsmash has WAAAAAY more range than it and the ftilt MIGHT have more.

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G&W's Dtilt has ZERO cooldown. After the hitbox disappears, all remaining frames of Dtilt are IASA frames. We have frame data to back this up. Lucario's Fsmash is telegraphed. His Ftilt is great stuff though.

Jeepy Sol said:

[*]Gaw's only arguable weakspot is above him, and his uair still covers that really well. It's perhaps even more difficult to deal with than any other uair in the game. It forces you to the edge or land next to him, which is definitely bad.

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Oh my bad Erich, you weren't the one that said G&W's possible weak spot was above him. =P

Either way, that needs to be fixed. ^^

djbrowny said:

lol at calling snakes tilts BS, while G&W uair/nair are supposedly fine. theyre all equally broken

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My point was basically saying G&W's D-tilt is really awesome until he goes against Snake. Snake has tilts that have more range than G&W's and come out like 2 frames faster. Yeah, BS. =(

While the key is a powerful move, it is less effective on Lucario than others. His Upair trades hits with G&W's Dair, but the Upair will also always beat out the Dair when slightly moved from the center. Lucario has, quite possibly, the best dodge in the game so he can dodge the Dair on the ground and possibly even punish.

As an approach, this will not really work on Lucario because of his rolls/great range on attacks.

Don't get me wrong, I know it's a powerful attack, but the move's best purpose, IMO, is getting back on the ground after being hit in the air. You still have the same amount of DI as you normally would, so you can steer yourself away while descending at a high speed.

Mmmm...thanks for the tips A2 and Cutter. BTW, Lucario's not a heavyweight.

Yea, he definitely does NOT have a weak-spot above him. I very much agree with you on that one.

Lucario has more priority than G&W's bair too. Sad for you, but good for us. His best aerial in this match-up is the fair. The only thing that saves us is our shield on that one. Unless we wanna try a forward smash, but that's just not very practical(our fsmash beats it). The uair is annoying, but rarely hits us; good for setting up though. The nair is just always a good one for G&W, and the fair is EVIL.

I agree with what Zero Gamer said on the dair, except for the last paragraph. I don't really know the best use for it. I think it simply works better on other people rather than on Lucario. It still works, but not as well as it could.

Yeah, upon further insight, I'll just say that getting back on the stage is just one of G&W's options with Dair rather than being its best use.

Also, I swear most G&W's don't use slowfall D-air enough to ledgeguard. However watch out for the ones that do. It's absolutely ridiculous.

A2ZOMG said:

Also, I swear most G&W's don't use slowfall D-air enough to ledgeguard. However watch out for the ones that do. It's absolutely ridiculous.

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lol you were trying to this on our G&W mirror matches