Dpete
Carnifex
I'm curious on how swallowing Zamus' armor is useful. Wouldn't she punish the lag just like anyone else?
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Improve Your Moves!
- Thread starter Dpete
- Start date
My friend usually runs zamus on FD standard no items and such
His first act is to throw a piece of gear at me, and I can usually swallow the first piece no problem.
Swallowing items isn't that useful but its there, and sometime it might save you.
Also realizing you can swallow items prevents you from having an item chucked in your mouth and then punished during the force feeding's lag
His first act is to throw a piece of gear at me, and I can usually swallow the first piece no problem.
Swallowing items isn't that useful but its there, and sometime it might save you.
Also realizing you can swallow items prevents you from having an item chucked in your mouth and then punished during the force feeding's lag
Tomato Kirby
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 582
^I actually find that as an interesting fact to keep in mind.
Dpete
Carnifex
I think the risk of taking out Diddy's bananas is greater than the reward. The lag after the swallow leaves you too vulnerable IMO.
lilthunder91013
Smash Cadet
I agree. if you swallow diddy's bananas it will have the swallow lag and leave you open for the attack he was probably going to follow up with anyway
Percon
Smash Lord
ZSS armor pieces can just be dodged/jumped over so that they fall off the stage...
Dpete
Carnifex
Agreed. So I think it is best not to swallow items.
Let's talk about breaking out of Kirby's mouth for a bit. This seems essential when deciding when to go for Kirbycides, as you want to make sure your opponent doesn't have time to break out and footstool you to your demise.
Big Red
Smash Journeyman
Wait, does anyone actually use copy? I use it a lot because it almost always gives Kirby a projectile to match your opponent, and it is so fun to use other characters ATs against them.
Arrow Looping against Pit for example.
Arrow Looping against Pit for example.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
it seems like kirby generally footstools the opponent before they footstool you since you are so close whoever jumps first gets it off. And the other person would have more lag since you can mash jump while they mash everything lol.
Though whenever I play on yoshis island and they pop out when we are near the edge it seems like they always footstool me =/ I think the wall makes them pop out above you.
Brahma
Smash Journeyman
The lower % they are, the easier/faster they can break out. As such, using swallow for a low % kill is more useful than a high % swallow kill IMO, just for the fact that they can mash out sooner, leaving them to fall to their death while you recover. At higher %, they either won't mash out in time, or mash out just in time for Kirby to die in the release lag. 50% seems to be pretty good swallow kill %. It gimps a lot of characters, especially after their 2nd jump. On characters like MK, Dedede, ROB woh can still recover, you probably don't want to go for this.
I don't know about footstool. When they struggle out, they pop out slightly below Kirby, leaving you to footstool first. I usually just DI towards the opponent and mash jump so I can footstool after the release. If you're getting footstooled/attacked first, you may want to DI away.
lilthunder91013
Smash Cadet
IMO one of the best options for the spit is doing it near the explosion zone so that you can spit them right into oblivion.(not always useful or practical but always satisfying)
Dpete
Carnifex
Inhale Summary
Though inhale is Kirby's signature attack, it is not as useful as some other moves in Kirby's arsenal. But it is always satisfying to use for Kirbycides and Stage/Star Spikes
.
Kirby's Inhale has two parts, the suction range that pulls people in slightly, then the disjointed grab that extends from his body. Once they touch that grab hitbox they get swallowed, meaning that it interrupts any non-disjointed attack.
Inhale has potential to be a great asset to one's defensive game. It can be used to stop the approach of many characters, granted the inhale out-prioritizes the attack. The super armor frames will also save you in case you were getting hit by a high-knockback attack. Remember, the super armor frames only occur as your opponent is tumbling into your mouth.
In the recovery game, inhaling an opponent who is waiting for you on the edge is a great way to set up Kirbycides and Stage/Star Spikes. Inhaling an opponent who is recovering also sets up well for a Kirbycide, or just for spitting them back out farther away from the stage.
Inhale also has some situational uses. When recovering, Inhale can make you fall slower if you feel the need. Inhaling and Spitting/Copying after an opponent has used his double jump does not restore his double jump, which can be especially devastating to characters that rely on theirs, such as Yoshi and Jigglypuff. Also, Kirby can swallow items, such as Diddy's bananas and ZSS's armor, but he has significant lag afterward, so it does not seem very practical.
Combo's Involving Inhale
F-Throw > Up-Air > Inhale (escapable by DI/Air dodge)
Ledge Hop > Inhale > Starspike
Things to Learn with Inhale
Instant Inhale range
Moves that Inhale can out-prioritize (especially approaches)
And on an off note, I was without internet the last two days, so our discussion didn't progress according to schedule. Sorry folks.
Though inhale is Kirby's signature attack, it is not as useful as some other moves in Kirby's arsenal. But it is always satisfying to use for Kirbycides and Stage/Star Spikes
.Kirby's Inhale has two parts, the suction range that pulls people in slightly, then the disjointed grab that extends from his body. Once they touch that grab hitbox they get swallowed, meaning that it interrupts any non-disjointed attack.
Inhale has potential to be a great asset to one's defensive game. It can be used to stop the approach of many characters, granted the inhale out-prioritizes the attack. The super armor frames will also save you in case you were getting hit by a high-knockback attack. Remember, the super armor frames only occur as your opponent is tumbling into your mouth.
In the recovery game, inhaling an opponent who is waiting for you on the edge is a great way to set up Kirbycides and Stage/Star Spikes. Inhaling an opponent who is recovering also sets up well for a Kirbycide, or just for spitting them back out farther away from the stage.
Inhale also has some situational uses. When recovering, Inhale can make you fall slower if you feel the need. Inhaling and Spitting/Copying after an opponent has used his double jump does not restore his double jump, which can be especially devastating to characters that rely on theirs, such as Yoshi and Jigglypuff. Also, Kirby can swallow items, such as Diddy's bananas and ZSS's armor, but he has significant lag afterward, so it does not seem very practical.
Combo's Involving Inhale
F-Throw > Up-Air > Inhale (escapable by DI/Air dodge)
Ledge Hop > Inhale > Starspike
Things to Learn with Inhale
Instant Inhale range
Moves that Inhale can out-prioritize (especially approaches)
And on an off note, I was without internet the last two days, so our discussion didn't progress according to schedule. Sorry folks.
Dpete
Carnifex
Improve Your Moves!
Week #2: Back Air
Now we're getting into the bread and butter of Kirby's moveset. This is one of Kirby's best moves and should be a staple in any good Kirby's game.
Starting discussions:
Wall of Pain/Combo's into WoP
Killing potential (fresh vs. stale)
Versus other aerials
Week #2: Back Air
Now we're getting into the bread and butter of Kirby's moveset. This is one of Kirby's best moves and should be a staple in any good Kirby's game.
Starting discussions:
Wall of Pain/Combo's into WoP
Killing potential (fresh vs. stale)
Versus other aerials
SpikeSpiegel19
Smash Ace
U can Fthrow, Uair, uptilt, Bair into WoP
It has a sweetspot right at the tip which kills pretty much if its stale or fresh
and has very high priority
It has a sweetspot right at the tip which kills pretty much if its stale or fresh
and has very high priority
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
shhh im doing work at my computer and slacking off
lol its boring =/
quick note is that bair has sex kick properties
lol its boring =/
quick note is that bair has sex kick properties
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
If your fighting an opponent that is hard to connect a KO move and they are at high %, use a fresh b-air. Its the quickest and safest KO move Kirby has. You may have to spam final cutter or some other moves besides b-air to get it to refresh to the maximum power if you spammed it for WOP recently. I think about 8 attacks from other moves would freshen b-air up to the max.
I find that of all of Kirby's moves this one is the easiest to land and do what you want it to do. Unlike his other moves it always hits them back instead of in various directions based on where on the feet they are kicked, however the tip is still the best place to hit. One of the best times to use this move is on stages with walk off death because you can do a continual WoP every time they get up or roll.
Deg222
Smash Journeyman
If the opponent is at 0%, do two Uptilts into a back air and if they DI poorly, fastfall another back air onto them. Another combo that works decently if they're at a lower %, back air them while they're on the ground, then hit them with a forward tilt (I guess you could forward smash but I like to keep this move fresh).
A trick I like to sometimes do is back air them while they're shielding and keep my spacing, this sometimes causes them to attempt to grab but since you're too far away, they'll be open for a forward smash.
Overall this move is awesome, USE IT! :D
A trick I like to sometimes do is back air them while they're shielding and keep my spacing, this sometimes causes them to attempt to grab but since you're too far away, they'll be open for a forward smash.
Overall this move is awesome, USE IT! :D
Tomato Kirby
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 582
Ah, b-air. What wold have happened to my Kirby in SSBM without it, I do not want to know.
I want everyone to remember that:
1. Jump out of shield to b-air can act like a powerful punisher if they are behind you. Think of it as a counter!
2. All parts of Kirby are considered a hitbox, not just the feet. The body is rather weak, though...then again, I rarely do this, so I might be mistaken.
3. DI! It helps maintain spacing and covers a retreat. Works best if you use a c-stick for an aerial.
I want everyone to remember that:
1. Jump out of shield to b-air can act like a powerful punisher if they are behind you. Think of it as a counter!
2. All parts of Kirby are considered a hitbox, not just the feet. The body is rather weak, though...then again, I rarely do this, so I might be mistaken.
3. DI! It helps maintain spacing and covers a retreat. Works best if you use a c-stick for an aerial.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
For sweetspot is it higher damage dealt or do you just get a better knockback? Definetely the easiest move to land with Kirby combine that with top killing potential unstale you have an awesome move. Sex kick properties for the bair aren't that long though but hell at least he has some.
I think f-throw>u-air>pivot>bair is a better way to do WoP. A bit harder but more satisfying. Bair to dash attack or grab is good. Bair to f-smash ain't that great it can be shielded pretty easily.
I like to use bair ftk so I tend to use fair for approaching. Although I switch to bair to approach characters that have high priority/disjointed hitboxes.
Percon
Smash Lord
Bair can cancel out a fully charged aura sphere from Lucario (maybe not at higher percents) which I found kind of funny... also beats out MK's tornado, though you need to have really good spacing and timing.
And it comes out fast as anything. VERY useful move.
And it comes out fast as anything. VERY useful move.
Deg222
Smash Journeyman
Speaking of canceling projectiles, back air can also cancel out Din's fire. Kirby's feet need to collide with the exploding part of the fire ball to work however. It's risky to do, but so satisfying when done right :D
Tomato Kirby
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 582
Argh, I forgot to check whether Kirby's body and not just the feet count as a hit-box. I guess I will have to next week.
Before I forget, f-throw to u-air to Inhale does not seem to work. They just DI and jump.
Before I forget, f-throw to u-air to Inhale does not seem to work. They just DI and jump.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Din's fire is actually cancelled out by anything that involves his feet usually. Like f-tilt and fair. This is why fair is my choice when approaching her.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
Alright so I don't know if you guys do this, but here is something I just do and realized that most of the other kirby players I see in person don't do. Basically this would be my aerial approach game. Kirby is one of the few characters in brawl that has a truly reliable aerial approach.
Just float within a bairs range of your opponent. They will hold out their shield, and you can just keep floating near them just barely out of reach of their attacks, but close enough so you can punish anything with a bair before they recover from an attack. If they try to attack you just jump to avoid and fastfall a bair onto them. If they just keep holding their shield keep floating and waiting for it to get small enough that you can poke through with a bair. Bair has a very narrow hitbox that is great for hitting through diminished shields. If they sidestep just hit them at the end of the sidestep. Rolls just follow and punish with whatever you can.
lol sorry I am so vague its hard to just describe what I do in a match... I'm more the type of person that feels things than directly calculates them o.O or rather I do both and this is the "feeling" part of my playing? I dunno lol hope that helps in some way though =/
Just float within a bairs range of your opponent. They will hold out their shield, and you can just keep floating near them just barely out of reach of their attacks, but close enough so you can punish anything with a bair before they recover from an attack. If they try to attack you just jump to avoid and fastfall a bair onto them. If they just keep holding their shield keep floating and waiting for it to get small enough that you can poke through with a bair. Bair has a very narrow hitbox that is great for hitting through diminished shields. If they sidestep just hit them at the end of the sidestep. Rolls just follow and punish with whatever you can.
lol sorry I am so vague its hard to just describe what I do in a match... I'm more the type of person that feels things than directly calculates them o.O or rather I do both and this is the "feeling" part of my playing? I dunno lol hope that helps in some way though =/
Dpete
Carnifex
No one has really discussed Bair's defensive potential. SH'd Bairs are a great way to stop approaches IMO. Of course it seems that Kirby usually benefits from an aggressive playstyle, but if you ever need to be defensive Bairs seem like your best option.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
I just made a long post about using bair defensively o.O
Well I am not sure really its more of using bair plus kirbys multiple jumps to control the match which is both offensive and defensive.
I guess my style is like a passive aggressive? XD
Well I am not sure really its more of using bair plus kirbys multiple jumps to control the match which is both offensive and defensive.
I guess my style is like a passive aggressive? XD
Dpete
Carnifex
Yeah I think passive aggressive describes that pretty well. I was thinking more along the lines of Kirby sitting back on characters that couldn't camp him, maybe like DK or Ganon, using Bairs to hinder their approach game.
i actually used to do this alot, and still do it sometimes. however, most of my good opponents jump up to meet me in the air, and with me floating so close to them it can be hard to avoid a quick aerial. sure, bair will outprioritize most moves an opponent would do here, but not all (g@w turtle anyone?) and since you dont know when their jump attack is coming it can often catch you off guard, especially on wifi when it takes longer to pull off a bair.
another problem is if they dont shield at all. take snake for example. if your floating near him like that, he is just gonna wait and use utilt as soon as youre close enough, and if you dont come close enough, then nothing will happen. and that utilt WILL beat your bair.
i usually find it better, if they sit there and shield, to just fast fall into a bair at the tip of your foot and land on the ground. hopefully they will go for the shield grab, and if they do you can punish them since a well spaced bair cannot be grabbed. if they dont go for the grab, its no loss because you really don't have any landing lag and you can hopefully continue to apply shield pressure.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
mm its hard to explain the spacing but float differently based on characters. I believe its called zoning? Just imagine the range of the longest hit boxes a character has in every direction and stay just outside of that range. If your range is longer then just go to a bairs range (default range basically) Also you can switch up with a hammer since its disjointed it will beat pretty much anything and it has slightly less horizontal range but more vertical range than a bair. Essentially the same range though.
It can work, and is a very effective means of controlling the stage. Basically use your bair to establish control, and make sure to demonstrate how quick and powerful kirbys bair is. This will usually make your opponent resort to being defensive whenever you are in the air.
I think kirbys bair is a huge part of kirbys ability to control a match and main means of damage and can even ko if you use other attacks between bairs (getting a grab or two off with plenty of pummels is a great way to turn the bair into a kill) I really dont think kirby has a more useful move, probably the closest thing would be kirbys grab game. However kirby is not dependant on it, its just the most versatile attack he has.
Oh and if you are inside of your opponent and do a bair (kirbys body is on them) you will knock them in the opposite direct of your feet.
And I don't remember if someone mentioned it but fast falling a bair through a platform is a great way to attack.
Watch out for opponents that start to airdodge though since bair is a really quick attack it is pretty easy to airdodge and it can become predictable as to when you are using it. You can either bait their airdodge and hit with bair later or use neutral air (it lasts longer than most peoples airdodges) or switch it up with a hammer. Bair is probably kirbys best attack but don't only use bair. Other aerials can be great to mix in (I suppose I should talk about those when they come up though since this post is already long lol) but bair should still definitely be your bread and butter.
Bair is like kirbys version of marths fair lol.
Dpete
Carnifex
So we all agree Bair is Kirby's best aerial. But how does that compare to other characters aerials? I know recently in the matchup discussion we found that Dedede's Bair is considerably better than Kirby's. Who else should Kirby look out for when hoping to get good use of his Bair?
Colbert
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2008
- Messages
- 119
DK's bair is awesome as well, and you are forced to use a different move like Inhale or Stone to gimp his UpB recovery.
Snake's utilt is annoying, and his bair might have more priority.
GaW's fair and bair, obviously.
I think Metaknight's aerials have a little more range.
Ness' fair?
ROB's fair and bair. Not sure about nair, but our bair is faster.
Marth's and Ike's aerials also come to mind, but Ike's tend to be fairly slow except for his bair.
I'm not too sure about Mario, Luigi, Pit or Wolf. It seems like Kirby's would have more range.
Some people have said that Pika's fair gave them problems.
Snake's utilt is annoying, and his bair might have more priority.
GaW's fair and bair, obviously.
I think Metaknight's aerials have a little more range.
Ness' fair?
ROB's fair and bair. Not sure about nair, but our bair is faster.
Marth's and Ike's aerials also come to mind, but Ike's tend to be fairly slow except for his bair.
I'm not too sure about Mario, Luigi, Pit or Wolf. It seems like Kirby's would have more range.
Some people have said that Pika's fair gave them problems.
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
Most of the characters that have an aerial that compete with kirbys bair you can fit a bair in between their attacks since they usually have more lag than kirby. For G&W this is true for his fair but not his bair just cause it stays out sooo long that he can di way away with the hitbox lingering.
Metaknights aerials have slightly less range than kirbys except for his uair vs kirbys dair.
Metaknights aerials have slightly less range than kirbys except for his uair vs kirbys dair.
Tomato Kirby
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Messages
- 582
OK, it looks like Kirby's body actually is a hit-box during b-air.
I guess it could be an approach to use sparingly to mix things up when they expect f-air?
I guess it could be an approach to use sparingly to mix things up when they expect f-air?
All I can think of to say about Kirby's bair is that it's his air move that has been changed the least since N64...and it was extremely useful back then too. It's good in pretty much any situation.
I'm wondering about one thing though...some people mentioned "refreshing" certain moves. Is this some Brawl mechanic that I'm unaware of, where your move becomes weaker if you spam it?
I'm wondering about one thing though...some people mentioned "refreshing" certain moves. Is this some Brawl mechanic that I'm unaware of, where your move becomes weaker if you spam it?
DDD's Bair is superior to Kirby in every way with one exception. DDD's bair lags horribly upon landing, which makes it a risky aerial approach.
DKs Bair on the other hand is intimidating. It's just as fast, more powerful, and better range. Sorry to kinda go off-topic, but does anyone have any advice for dealing with DK's bairs?
TwilightKirby
Smash Ace
Hit him in the lag between his bairs, or hit his foot during the bair with kirbys hammer. Also you can inhale him out of it. Final cutter works too (like the hammer it is disjointed).