Lucas Frame Data

This is the result of several hours of toil and work on the part of me and Foxy. The important thing is we beat Mew2king to it.

"Completed on Frame X" means that Lucas can perform another move, be it a shield, or an airdodge, or whatever, on that frame after he starts the move.

! Rolldodge
| Completed on Frame 31
| Invulnerable on Frame 2
| Vulnerable on Frame 20
|-
! Spotdodge
| Completed on Frame 27
| Invulnerable on Frame 2
| Vulernable on Frame 22
|-
! Jab A
| Completed on Frame 18
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 1
| Hitbox Stays Out Until Frame 3
|-
! Nair
| Completed on Frame 30
| Hitbox 1 Comes Out on Frame 2
| Hitbox 2 Comes Out on 5
| Hitbox 3 Comes Out on 9
| Hitbox 4 Comes Out on 13
| Hitbox 5 Comes Out on 16
| Hitbox 6 Comes Out on 20
| Hitbox 7 Comes Out on 23
| Hitbox 8 Comes Out on 26
|-
! Fair
| Complete on Frame 47
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 11
|-
! Dair
| Complete on Frame 58
| Hitbox 1 Comes Out on Frame 7
| Hitbox 2 Assumed On Frame 12
| Hitbox 3 Comes Out on Frame 17
| Hitbox 4 Assumed on Frame 22
|-
! Bair
| Completed on Frame 42
| Hitbox @#$% Comes Out on Frame 16
| What the **** is up with this move
|-
! Uair
| Completed on Frame 48
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 4
|-
! Ftilt
| Completed on Frame 24
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 7
|-
! Utilt
| Completed on Frame 42
| Hitbox 1 Comes Out on Frame 6
| Hitbox 2 Comes Out on Frame 10
|-
! Dtilt
| Completed on Frame 17
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 5
|-
! Fsmash
| Completed on Frame 47
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 15
|-
! Dsmash
| Completed on Frame 67
| Hitbox 1 Comes Out on Frame 21
| Hitbox 2 Comes Out on 30
| Hitbox 3 Comes Out on 41
|-
! Upsmash
| Completed on Frame 101
| Hitbox Comes Out on Frame 30
| Hitbox Reaches Max Height on Frame 58

Specials to come, I just realized that they aren't done yet.

Great info.
Looking forward for the info on specials, especially PKT2.

Wow, this is fantastic information! Thanks for finding and compiling it for the community. I always thought that ftilt came out faster than utilt but I guess I am wrong; more nair to utilt for everyone. And with that crazy fast uair to follow...mmm.

Great information. I can't wait for the specials. I have a few requests on PK Thunder if you don't mind doing a bit more testing. If you could test the number of frames it takes to do the fastest in air PKT2 versus the fastest Thunderslide PKT2 I would really appreciate it. Also if it's possible for you to test the number of frames for PKT2's high prioirity hitbox versus lower priority hitbox (I'm pretty sure you can tell by his animation. He has a blue barrier around him for the high priority part which breaks apart for the lower priority part.) And then if you could find the frames for the initial knockback hit, weak hits and final knockback hit on it too. I'm working on a complete PK Thunder guide and this would REALLY help me out and help clear some things up as well.

Ok, a hitbox is the part of the attack that can hurt the opponent. So if a hitbox is out on frame 2, that means that you initiate the attack by pressing the button combination, and two frames later is the first frame that the attack can hit with.

Completion means that the move is completely over (including the startup of the attack, the attack itself, and the cooldown after the attack), and you can take another action immediately (run, jump, shield, or whatever else you can do when you're just standing.

This information is important because it shows exactly how fast the attacks are relative to each other in terms of startup and cooldown.

Does Brawl run at 60 FPS?

Wait wait...a 1-frame jab attack?

@_@

WAT?

That's way too fast for typical fighting game standards. Most jabs should start on frame 3. A 1-frame attack is like a shine, and generally, 1-frame attacks are considered bad practise in fighting games!

! Bair
| Completed on Frame 42
| Hitbox @#$% Comes Out on Frame 16
| What the **** is up with this move

What!

Do you guys realise that Lucas's jab comes out 4 frames faster than Fox's jab?

I really think this is a mistake.

Can you maybe test the jab again? There's no way it comes out with only one frame.

Fredd said:

Yeah . . .
Does someone care to further explain what the information is conveying?
I don`t quite get the terms; hitbox, completed on or frame x.

Of course, if the previous posts are all praising GofG for such wonderful information I`d like to know what it all means!​

Click to expand...

Glossary:
Frame - All TV shows, video games, movies etc are produced by displaying image after image, and each single image is known as a frame. Smash bros runs at 60 frames per second exactly, which means that a 15-frame attack takes 1/4 of a second to complete.
Hitbox - All attacks have an area in which they effect, this is known in fighting games as a hitbox. Hit boxes have three primary statistics: Size, Duration, and Startup frames. The size refers to the physical area that the hitbox covers on the screen, duration refers to the number of frames, and startup refers to how long it takes the hitbox to activate after pressing a button.
Completed on - The move finishes after this many frames; i.e. how long before you can attack or move again.

It's quite possible I got the jab wrong. I'll retest it. I'm also skeptical of the rolldodge, I was extremely sleepy when testing both of those.

TechnoMonster said:

! Bair
| Completed on Frame 42
| Hitbox @#$% Comes Out on Frame 16
| What the **** is up with this move

What!

Click to expand...

That move is going to require a ****load of testing beyond anything i've ever done before. (So will PKT, for that matter.)

I believe the jab, I don't know if this applies but I have been able to hi characters like falco during his jab with my jab. Most the time they are like WTF, i was hitting you....

edit - in otherwords I use jab to break most if not all ground combos excluding infinites.

nice work~ :D

btw, how do u test this stuff?

HighInDaSky, i'm not going to reveal my methods, incase, Mew2King decides to race me to cracking every character.

Thanks GofG, must've took a lot of work. I can't wait for it to be completed.Keep up the good work.

Action Replay, slow down the framerate, display hitboxes and input data. Start counting.

You know, if Lucas's jab really does hit on frame one, then that's worth some serious thought right there.

Lucas is able to lift his LEG up and strike the opponent with his foot at 1 frame, which is like...one tenth of a millisecond or something ridiculous like that. Not only does he have psychic abilites, he used PSI magnet to steal some powers from the Flash!

It'd be nice to know how you do it to know if you are actually doing it correctly unlike most people. M2K's method is really dumb and I've told him this many times. I've told him how to properly do it, but for one he doesn't have a capture card, and two I highly doubt he'd be able to do it unless I sat there and walked him through it everytime as he's terrible at that kind of stuff. I don't think he cares nearly enough about this game anyway to go testing every character.

For the record since this thread was posted I've tripled my use of Jab and have won 13/14 ranked matches online.

Whether the jab is one frame or not it's still an amazingly good move. Very fast and hits behind Lucas. I use it all the time.

could also do it for his grab? nice info btw

and the stuff like his tether, the tether's retracting animation, throws, etc

Jihn, not QUITE. Almost.

Edit: Lucas's jab has the following use for me: Whenever me and an opponent rolldodge in the same direction at the same time, i just start the jab right when I end my rolldodge, and it always hits. Also, whenever I need to get in an attack before they hit me with something bit, like Ike's fsmash, and i don't REALLY want to shield it, then I'll jab it.

I ought to get matches uploaded of my playstyle, all I have is stuff from release night.

lucas's jab beats ROB's spotdodge to downsmash, and that's good. (ok, so the first hit clanks. his next jab comes out first though.)

I was right. Nobody seems to have any idea what they are doing when it comes to getting 100% accurate frame data in this game. If I heard M2K managed to obtain this epic method of getting frame data and was actually using it, I would have to go over there and smack him.

GofG said:

Getting Frame Data without a Capture Card

Guess what? This is actually the precise method. Why? With a capturecard, you are limited to 30fps, when Brawl runs at 60fps. This means you cannot possibly get the frame right 100% of the time, because 50% of the time you won't even be able to see the frame at which the move ends, or the hitbox comes out, or whatever. This method takes longer because there is more room for human error, therefore you must perform many more tests, but it is more precise in the end.

What You Need

* A stopwatch that can measure out to 1/1000th of a second (x.xxx).
* A calculator that can work with large numbers.
* A Notepad with which to write down trial numbers.
* A Wii within easy access to the three of these instruments.

Click to expand...

FALSE.

You guys are seriously using a ****ing stopwatch to collect this data? WOW. lmao

Protip: If you actually know wtf you are doing you can easily get ALL in-game frames from a 29.97fps recording on NORMAL game speed. It is 29.97fps, BUT it has 2 in-game frames contained in each of those frames (one in each field of the interlaced frame). If you deinterlace it correctly, you get a 59.94fps video at half the height (since half the horizontal lines aka a field are one in-game frame and the other half the other in-game frame). You go from capturing to counting frames in a matter of seconds.


AVISource("source video.avi")
AssumeTFF()
separatefields()


^^ That's what you want to be using (it's the separate fields script). VirtualDub. AviSynth. Look them up for your own sake, lol.

Hmmm...I know nothing about collecting frame rate data but perhaps we should have these and eventually all the moves checked using an Magus420's method? I can't say which of you is actually correct on the best way to get this info but it can't hurt to double check things right? Still can't wait for the pk thunder data.

Magus, that is not the method that I am using.

That is the method that you use when you don't have a capture card.

Hence "Without a Capture Card" at the top.

Though, I have to admit, I did not know you could separate the frames out with a script, I had been using Final Cut Pro's in-menu function to do that.

Not sure what you mean. If you've been doing that to get 59.94 video with it, then why would you say you are only capable of getting 30fps of in-game frames from a capture card and that the stopwatch method is more precise?


Maybe I'm not explaining this well enough. When you capture with normal game speed and at 29.97 (30) frames per second, each frame contains 2 fields interlaced with each other, so you are actually capturing 59.94 (60) fields per second when you do this. Each field contains its own unique image from the game (in-game frame), so you are also capturing 59.94 in-game frames per second this way.

However, many programs deinterlace (interlaced video does not display right on a computer) this by maintaining the 29.97 fps and scrapping one of these fields (you'll lose half the in-game frames this way), or sometimes blending these fields together (looks ghosted/blurry). Many programs do this AS you do the capture by default. If after the capture it doesn't contain lots of teeth in the video as you watch it it has already been deinterlaced (and generally using a method you do NOT want used. What the script does is separate these fields to their own frames and doubling the framerate to 59.97.

It takes a frame that contains 2 images @29.97 such as this (interlaced)...



...and splits them into 2 different frames @59.94 like this (which results in ALL in-game frames after deinterlacing)

and


^^ If the the deinterlacing is instead done by discarding one of the fields it would only create one OR the other frame above, be resized to normal height, and be @29.97 (you lose half the in-game frames with this since one image is removed)


Blending them to deinterlace would create this @29.97 (has both but are smudged together)



Here's a 59.94fps video clip of SSBM (they run at the same framerate) that was captured in real time, deinterlaced properly, and resized.

http://www.mediafire.com/?t8nguxrsxmi

Looking at the game timer you can see that it contains the 60 frames per second passed in the game.

That green slime is oddly hypnotic...