Winnar
Smash Lord
Please note that I formatted this mini-guide so that you only have to read the parts that you need. Think of it as a catalog.
I understand you have better things to do than read every word I wrote, simply go to the part you need help with and I (along with various other smashers) will try to give you as much help as I can on that subject. If you feel that the section you need help with has too much information, try looking at the last sentence or paragraph; I try to summarize in that area.
If you feel that any information here is superfluous, lengthy, or confusing, PLEASE TELL ME. Help me help you.
Before I begin, the reason I made this mini-guide is because I always hear everyone on the Yoshi Boards talking about how they don't actually have much experience with the Doctor Mario matchup. I may not be the best player, but I know what it's like to face a good Doctor Mario, and it's not fun if you don't know what you're doing. Hopefully this helps someone. D:
Oh, and I made a new topic for this rather than leave in the other thread where it seemed kind of hidden and out of place. Sorry for accidentally bumping the other thread. D:
[Note: this was the original post] I feel your pain, man. I feel it so **** much. Between that ridiculous baseball slide dash attack, the pills, his tilts, the grabs (coupled with Yoshi's huge nose, Yoshi gets grabbed from places that counter logic), the freaking smashes, the blanket (to a lesser extent with Yoshi) the shffls...Doctor Mario is so gimpy. Worse than Fox (to me at least
).
Oh, and my brother mains as doc (and plays him almost exclusively). We aren't pro or anything, but we aren't nublets either. Anyway, all that said, let's get to the good part.
Yoshi is fairly heavy and Doc is basically average, so you would think Yoshi would have the advantage in that area. In my opinion, he does not. Yoshi is just heavy enough to be tilt/shffl/grag combo'd up to 80% by a smart Doc and a Yoshi who has lost his double jump (or is stupid
). On the flip side, Yoshi has very little in the way of juggling Doc. This has been, at the very least, my experience in this match up. In order to escape being juggled to such percents, smart DI, clever mindgames, and superb teching is necessary. Most of the juggling Doc does on Yoshi is inescapable by teching, though never miss an opportunity to tech; don't count on hitting the ground for a while, though (Oh, and pray you don't get knocked off the ledge). Let me reiterate how important the DI is. Without any DI by Yoshi, 80% combos are possible. With smart DI, the same combo would only last to about 20-30%. With poor DI, the same combo would end with a smash/f-air with a final % being around 100% in one combo string. DI. Smart. Please. For Yoshi's sake. DI like you feel Yoshi's pain. Anyway, to juggle the Doc, I dunno what to tell you. F-airs lead into n-airs and u-airs well, but not much is stringed after that. Egg Toss, perhaps? Careful with the Egg Toss, though; Doc's blanket comes out fast.
The biggest (and hardest) solution out of the weight problem is to either not leave yourself open or make yourself unpredictable. Depending on which you think you do better, play towards that strategy (or both, I suppose).
I find the pills to be predictable, probably because I see them so often, but they can be a huge hassle (and a stock) when used correctly. The real trick to pills is just getting the hang of how they work. If you're still getting the hang of how to deal with pills, here are some suggestions:
• Wait it out. If there is no second pill on its way and you have the room, this is as good an option as any. Again, watch out for that second pill, because there are some killer accidental double pill combos.
• Jump over it. Dangerous and tough to pull off, though has its merits, I suppose. You end up in an awkward position, though. Not recommended.
• Run under it. They are insanely predictable, and chances are they were thrown from the air, making the chance of them touching you on the ground pretty low, especially if you know where they are. This one is good to follow up with a dash attack if they're in the air trying to pull another one, as for some reason, the Doc doesn't expect it. BE CAREFUL THOUGH, dash attacks are very risky at percentages below 50%, no matter where the Doc is.
• Tilt or Jab it. This works beautifully in some situations, but poorly in others. There are four possible outcomes to trying to pull this off. (1) You tilt through the pill, canceling the pill out entirely while keeping the tilt. (2) You tilt/jab into the pill, but the pill hits you anyway, even if it makes that -klank- sound. (3) The tilt/jab cancels the pill, but the pill also cancels the tilt/jab. That sounds great in theory, but when this happens Yoshi (or any character) freezes for a couple of frames. This is often just enough time for Doc to have performed a variety of aerials or smashes, or at least reached you with them. I suppose this would set up for supershields nicely, but there are probably better ways. Also, I think that the hitbox still exists the frame before they cancel out, so if Doc is somehow right there where you tilted/jabbed, he will be caught in the tilt/jab. The lag from the hitbox cancel isn't monumental, it actually shortens the overall time a tilt/jab is out, but you don't have the benefit of letting the Doc run into your foot while you wait for the lag to subsist. (4) You miss the pill entirely and it nails you in the face. That's just what you get for trying to be fancy. Overall, not a bad option, just be sure never to use this more than twice in a row, and to only use this one when Doc is not near you.
• N-air into it. Also not the best option, by the time you get to the Doc (if you even hit him) the n-air will be pretty weak. Note: The pill must be below Yoshi for the n-air to go through the pill. If the pill is horizontal to or above Yoshi during the n-air, Yoshi will be hit, and you will be combo'd. Don't say I didn't warn you.
• F-air through it. Another iffy option. It has the priority to go through the pill and probably the next attack you're up against, but eh...it's not very practical to do, and you'll almost never hit the Doc as well as the pill.
• B-air through it. Not the worst option, but I find the hitboxes of b-air to be unreliable and not helpful on Doc, so I usually just avoid the pill or...
• Smash through it! This one is my favorite option, as the smash acts in the same way as a tilt in that the hitbox is there, but the lag is cancelled. Let me rephrase that: You can use a smash attack and not suffer from the lag. How beautiful does that sound? :D
• Do NOT DJC through it. There are many reasons not to do this. More than once I've tried to absorb the hit with my DJC and throw a n-air afterwards, only to be met with a f-air, n-air, b-air...etc. You've now just taken something like 20% and lost your double jump, what were you thinking?! Also, it cancels the DJ at lower percents than Yoshi players (or at least I) would expect, which leaves you so vulnerable. So very, very vulnerable. Extra, avoidable percent is bad no matter what the reason. Didn't you read any of the bullets before this one?! Why are you taking unnecessary damage?!
Gea puts it best though:
While the blanket doesn't gimp recovery for Yoshi like it does for other characters, it's still a nuisance. The biggest concern is as a mindgame for recovery and anti-juggling. When getting back onto the ledge, if the Doc sees/expects to be F-aired or D-aired, one hit from the blanket throws off aim completely. If you expect to be blanketed, you can just overshoot it, but once a strategy delves into reverse psychology, it quickly become less reliable than you think. Besides, a N-air would work just as well.
What I mean by anti-juggling is that the blanket works like Marth's side-B. Normally once the double jump has been exhausted the only two options are fall normally, fast fall, or airdodge. In any case a u-smash would do the trick (the dodge might work, but the lag could be at least followed up with something simple like a tilt). It's kind of tough to remember a fourth option (the blanket). It can get frustrating to be tricked into a smash, tilt, or whatever, but it's completely avoidable. Use attacks like a U-air (probably not DJC'd to make sure the coward eats some tail) or a late RDJC'd N-air. Or even a retreat by wavedash to F-smash. Just think about it before you throw what would in any other case be an instant U-tilt/smash/air.
Oh, and be careful with eggs, they're all fine and good if they hit the Doc, but they're easy to blanket back to you if he's close enough. One good mindgame to throw every now and then is that if the Doc seems to get blanket happy when you throw an egg, throw one to miss his blanket, then rush in and take him out during his lag. Be confident when doing this, and don't overuse it! NEVER ECE AGAINST DOC! It just isn't worth it. Not only are the regular concerns of SD'ing yourself still there, but now you have to worry about timing the ECE perfectly so that when he returns the egg it will explode during your invincible frames.
The Doc's dash attack lasts very long (think Jigglypuff's side-B), normally can shield pierce, and sets up well for combos. Yoshi is immune to the shield pierce, but the only good to be had out of that would be a shield grab, which we all know is risky at best (more info in the Grab Game section). Yoshi's dash attack lasts very long and has uses of its own. The biggest two problems with Yoshi's dash attack are that it lasts so **** long that Doc can shield it and shffl a F-air in the time it takes to get past the lag. The other huge problem is that at percentages below 50%, the knockback is so weak that in most cases Doc can recover from his lag and grab you before you recover from your lag, and you were the one attacking! The best use for Yoshi's dash attack is as an edgeguard, but there are other, more general uses that you already use it for.
This is should already a given, but if you're like me, you didn't realize that DI'ing away from the stage/attacker can sometimes get you out of a combo (or combo finisher). I know I sound like a nublet saying that, but when I realized this I felt I grew up a little. :o
[Update 1 starts here]
Edgeguarding the Doc is harder than it seems. Dash attacks work somewhat well if it's either unexpected or the Doc misses that sweetspot (which shouldn't happen often). F-air is hard to pull off because, as I said earlier, a simple blanket will throw off your aim and leave you in a sort of disadvantageous place where now YOU are being edgeguarded against. D-air might work, but I have a hard time actually landing it. I would imagine it would be worth landing one, since the Doc's vertical recovery isn't too hot. Also, an up-B could potentially ruin your double jump at higher percents so he would drag you down as well. Maybe. The most advantageous way to go would probably be the simple, gimpy N-air. Throw it a little early, so he doesn't get much vertical knockback, just loses his double jump (and maybe his tornado recovery). I dunno, that's harder than it sounds. If you have to do some dash dancing mindgames to make him think you won't instant edgehog, do it. Just make sure you don't miss your chance to edgehog, because Doc has the uncanny ability to make you pay for it.
For the sweetspotting Doc, edgehog would be your best option, don't try to get fancy and F-air or D-air; the timing is too tricky. Take a minimalistic approach to the sweetspotter, if you can ever edgehog, do. Yoshi's instant edgehog is just too beautiful not to. Oh, and PLEASE save yourself the heartache and roll to continue edgehogging. Don't try to be fancy and just pop up normally because the Doc can grab the ledge longer than logic would lead you to believe.
Doc's a hard one to edgeguard, but a good edgeguard is key to the victory here. Don't take any chances, you've gotten Doc so close to his death. Finish him. Combo for show, edgeguard for dough.
One more time, because it can't be said enough: Don't try to be fancy, any time a simple edgehog will work, do it.
I understand that Yoshi's grab is slow and has huge lag should you miss; the point here is not to miss, and honestly, it isn't that tough. Look at it this way, look at all of Doc's laggy moves. These can be shieldgrabbed by Yoshi. Even with such a slow start up grab. I know there aren't many out there, but moves like D-smash and Doc's dash attack are good to shieldgrab from every now and then. Same goes for the running grab. Just be on the lookout for times when you can grab, because it will be worth it if you pull it off.
The reason I say this is not because there's some kind of amazing combo you can automatically pull from grabbing the Doc (though at lower %'s you can go from U-throw/D-throw to U-smash, and from then on, pretty nicely), I say this because if you connect with every grab you throw, the Doc's game will be thrown off dramatically. Think about it. Chances are a Doc who is used to playing Yoshi will have gotten used to throwing laggy attacks and getting away with it. Let them know when they've crossed that line.
Oh, and if you grab someone, please for heaven's sake chew them once or twice at least. Every % you can get from a grab will make the risk even more worth taking.
If you're like me, and you overuse certain moves like the RDJC N-air, you can stop being predictable very easily! Introducing...the RDJC Egg Lay!! :D :D :D
This move will instantly make your opponent regret shielding! It will make them think before they land whether they should shield or not, which is exactly what you want them to do. When your opponent no longer has to question whether or not to react in a certain way, you know you are doing something terribly wrong.
Options for when they are Egged:
(1) Egg lay them again! Though next to impossible to do more than once, it has its perks (such as looking awesome).
(2) B-air them in the egg as they fall! It may not hit every time, but it's easy percent if you connect even once. Plus, you can follow up with a U-air or N-air as they break free!
(3) D-air them in the egg as they fall! It may not hit every time, but it's easy percent if you connect even once. Honestly, I would recommend B-air since it comes out faster and is easier to connect/follow up with.
(4) U-air or N-air them in the egg as they fall! Maybe even twice! U-air would be better than N-air, but hey, if you really don't like B-air or U-air that much...
(5) Taunt! It may not help you (and may get you hit IRL), but it certainly was called for! (Please don't taunt during these precious moments of having them on the defensive. It was probably tough on Yoshi to eat, digest, create an egg for, and go through child birth in under a second, so please don't waste all that hard work with a pointless taunt.)
So recovering is fairly simple against Doc, just don't repeat yourself if possible. When coming from above mix it up between the sweetspot down-B edgegrab (use that sparingly, it's tough to get back from there to a place where you can turn the match around), falling normally (with an aerial, b-air, d-air, and n-air work best, though d-air has surprisingly low priority), fast-falling at the right moment (with an aerial probably), air dodge (not recommended, U-airs have very little lag, and most Docs can take advantage of your lag and aerial you anyway), and side-B to dodge that pesky f-air or u-air (if you see the Doc will make it to you on the stage before you pop out, feel free to double back at him, but only once!).
From below you can air dodge onto the stage from below (to avoid that n-air or whatever), you can up-B to sweetspot the edge (edgeguarders will eat you if you aren't careful, though), you can do an aerial just as you pass the edge (Kind of tricky to time, but a u-air or n-air can save you sometimes), you can just use the double jump to go through whatever they attack you with (beware your % though, F-airs are pesky in this respect as they can mess with you), or you can waveland onto the edge (I find this one especially useful because Yoshi seems easier to waveland with than any other character, for me at least. Also, be sure to follow up with a quick F-smash or U-smash your attacker once you waveland (presumably with them now closer to the edge).
[Update] So I was playing against the Doc today, and while recovering (from above) I came down with a neutral-B/egg lay, then jumped up and edgehogged the shocked Doc. It was probably situational, but I think it's a good example of not discounting the egg lay.
A good alternative to being hit? You probably already have your own strategies for shielding at this point, but if you don't, here are a few pointers. (1) Yoshi cannot jump out of his shield. I know, it sucks. (2) Yoshi's shieldgrab is horrendously slow. Chances are you will only make that mistake once. (3) Yoshi takes one more frame out of shield than all other characters; it sounds miniscule, but it always throws me off. (4) The only ways to instantly break out of your shield are to roll or spotdodge and let go of the shield button. Once you finish your roll/spotdodge, Yoshi can do any attack/dash/jump/wavedash/etc. instantly. (You can also supershield, but let's not worry about that for now, shall we?)
Oh, and here's some gracious input from a certain Gea:
A good counterpick will both play to Yoshi's strengths and Doc's weaknesses. Let's take a look at some of those might be...
Yoshi's Strengths and Doc's Weaknesses in terms of stage choice:
~ Yoshi has much better vertical and horizontal recovery than the Doc (gimping aside).
~ Yoshi is heavier than Doc.
~ Yoshi can meteor. Doc cannot.
~ Yoshi is more maneuverable than Doc in the air.
~ Doc's projectiles work most effectively when fired from a distance.
~ Many of Doc's combos can be disrupted by platforms. That is to say, they hurt Doc more than Yoshi in this respect.
All of these seem to point to a stage that has large boundaries, has platforms, and has little room for Doc's pills.
As Gea puts it:
I personally do not recommend them. Whether facing Doc or Jigglypuff or whoever, I consider Edge Canceled Eggs (ECE's) to be a pointless gamble.
You might do 100 ECE's in a row, which would be more than impressive...until you mess up your attempt at 101, at which point you look like an idiot who killed himself trying to use a technique too difficult. Save yourself the embarrassment of killing yourself over a mundane 10%.
...IF you are too stubborn to give up ECE's because some guy on SmashBoards told you it will only lead you to your death, here are a few tips to cheating death.
(1) An overshot ECE leaves you slightly vulnerable. An undershot ECE leaves you dead. Overshoot.
(2) ECE's are addictive, and once you start landing eggs on your opponent, you won't want to stop. Take heed, the longer you drag out your ECE spree, the easier it is to either slip up and die or allow your opponent to catch you off guard.
(3) Don't go for an ECE if your opponent is about to hit you. The outcome is almost always this: You will lose your double jump and die.
There are TWO exceptions to my NO ECE'S rule
(1) If you are recovering from below and your opponent does not expect it, you can use your up-B to cancel out your jump, sweetspot the ledge, and hit your opponent with an egg. (BEWARE! Often your opponent had an aerial charging up anyway, so they may accidentally hit you. Also, it is easy to miss the ledge if you are out of practice, so again, overshoot if necessary. Just keep these risks in mind when going for the ECE sweetspot.)
(2) If you are on the stage and running toward the ledge, just before you run off the ledge, if you press up-B, you will fall off, grab the ledge, and pop off an egg. Essentially, you just performed a reverse ECE (RECE, and yes, I know there are other, much more dangerous ways to do this, but again, why put yourself in that much danger? ). Once again, beware the danger of pressing up-B too late, and following the egg to an early grave. Nothing quite kills an edgeguard like suicide.
...Okay, so maybe it wasn't a quick note, but it was important!
*dies*
I know this mini-guide is too narrow (only one character matchup! D: ) to sticky, I may add more characters later. In the mean time, thanks Shiri for adding it to your stickied "Character Matchups" thread. <3
Also, I'll try to keep it updated with people's posts. Kind of...catalog them. Sort of. Right. Maybe. We'll see.
Sections to go:
Random updates when people start finally adding comments D:<
I understand you have better things to do than read every word I wrote, simply go to the part you need help with and I (along with various other smashers) will try to give you as much help as I can on that subject. If you feel that the section you need help with has too much information, try looking at the last sentence or paragraph; I try to summarize in that area.
If you feel that any information here is superfluous, lengthy, or confusing, PLEASE TELL ME. Help me help you.
~=~Table of Contents~=~
- The Weight Problem
- The Pills
- The Blanket
- Dash Attacks
- A Quick Note on DI
- Edgeguarding
- Grab Game
- Neutral-B/Egg Lay
- Recovery
- Shielding
- Counter-Picking a Stage
- A Quick Note on Edge Canceled Eggs
Before I begin, the reason I made this mini-guide is because I always hear everyone on the Yoshi Boards talking about how they don't actually have much experience with the Doctor Mario matchup. I may not be the best player, but I know what it's like to face a good Doctor Mario, and it's not fun if you don't know what you're doing. Hopefully this helps someone. D:
Oh, and I made a new topic for this rather than leave in the other thread where it seemed kind of hidden and out of place. Sorry for accidentally bumping the other thread. D:
~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~
~=~~=~~=~~=~[Note: this was the original post] I feel your pain, man. I feel it so **** much. Between that ridiculous baseball slide dash attack, the pills, his tilts, the grabs (coupled with Yoshi's huge nose, Yoshi gets grabbed from places that counter logic), the freaking smashes, the blanket (to a lesser extent with Yoshi) the shffls...Doctor Mario is so gimpy. Worse than Fox (to me at least
).Oh, and my brother mains as doc (and plays him almost exclusively). We aren't pro or anything, but we aren't nublets either. Anyway, all that said, let's get to the good part.
~=~The Weight Problem~=~
Yoshi is fairly heavy and Doc is basically average, so you would think Yoshi would have the advantage in that area. In my opinion, he does not. Yoshi is just heavy enough to be tilt/shffl/grag combo'd up to 80% by a smart Doc and a Yoshi who has lost his double jump (or is stupid
). On the flip side, Yoshi has very little in the way of juggling Doc. This has been, at the very least, my experience in this match up. In order to escape being juggled to such percents, smart DI, clever mindgames, and superb teching is necessary. Most of the juggling Doc does on Yoshi is inescapable by teching, though never miss an opportunity to tech; don't count on hitting the ground for a while, though (Oh, and pray you don't get knocked off the ledge). Let me reiterate how important the DI is. Without any DI by Yoshi, 80% combos are possible. With smart DI, the same combo would only last to about 20-30%. With poor DI, the same combo would end with a smash/f-air with a final % being around 100% in one combo string. DI. Smart. Please. For Yoshi's sake. DI like you feel Yoshi's pain. Anyway, to juggle the Doc, I dunno what to tell you. F-airs lead into n-airs and u-airs well, but not much is stringed after that. Egg Toss, perhaps? Careful with the Egg Toss, though; Doc's blanket comes out fast. The biggest (and hardest) solution out of the weight problem is to either not leave yourself open or make yourself unpredictable. Depending on which you think you do better, play towards that strategy (or both, I suppose).
~=~The Pills~=~
I find the pills to be predictable, probably because I see them so often, but they can be a huge hassle (and a stock) when used correctly. The real trick to pills is just getting the hang of how they work. If you're still getting the hang of how to deal with pills, here are some suggestions:
• Wait it out. If there is no second pill on its way and you have the room, this is as good an option as any. Again, watch out for that second pill, because there are some killer accidental double pill combos.
• Jump over it. Dangerous and tough to pull off, though has its merits, I suppose. You end up in an awkward position, though. Not recommended.
• Run under it. They are insanely predictable, and chances are they were thrown from the air, making the chance of them touching you on the ground pretty low, especially if you know where they are. This one is good to follow up with a dash attack if they're in the air trying to pull another one, as for some reason, the Doc doesn't expect it. BE CAREFUL THOUGH, dash attacks are very risky at percentages below 50%, no matter where the Doc is.
• Tilt or Jab it. This works beautifully in some situations, but poorly in others. There are four possible outcomes to trying to pull this off. (1) You tilt through the pill, canceling the pill out entirely while keeping the tilt. (2) You tilt/jab into the pill, but the pill hits you anyway, even if it makes that -klank- sound. (3) The tilt/jab cancels the pill, but the pill also cancels the tilt/jab. That sounds great in theory, but when this happens Yoshi (or any character) freezes for a couple of frames. This is often just enough time for Doc to have performed a variety of aerials or smashes, or at least reached you with them. I suppose this would set up for supershields nicely, but there are probably better ways. Also, I think that the hitbox still exists the frame before they cancel out, so if Doc is somehow right there where you tilted/jabbed, he will be caught in the tilt/jab. The lag from the hitbox cancel isn't monumental, it actually shortens the overall time a tilt/jab is out, but you don't have the benefit of letting the Doc run into your foot while you wait for the lag to subsist. (4) You miss the pill entirely and it nails you in the face. That's just what you get for trying to be fancy. Overall, not a bad option, just be sure never to use this more than twice in a row, and to only use this one when Doc is not near you.
• N-air into it. Also not the best option, by the time you get to the Doc (if you even hit him) the n-air will be pretty weak. Note: The pill must be below Yoshi for the n-air to go through the pill. If the pill is horizontal to or above Yoshi during the n-air, Yoshi will be hit, and you will be combo'd. Don't say I didn't warn you.
• F-air through it. Another iffy option. It has the priority to go through the pill and probably the next attack you're up against, but eh...it's not very practical to do, and you'll almost never hit the Doc as well as the pill.
• B-air through it. Not the worst option, but I find the hitboxes of b-air to be unreliable and not helpful on Doc, so I usually just avoid the pill or...
• Smash through it! This one is my favorite option, as the smash acts in the same way as a tilt in that the hitbox is there, but the lag is cancelled. Let me rephrase that: You can use a smash attack and not suffer from the lag. How beautiful does that sound? :D
• Do NOT DJC through it. There are many reasons not to do this. More than once I've tried to absorb the hit with my DJC and throw a n-air afterwards, only to be met with a f-air, n-air, b-air...etc. You've now just taken something like 20% and lost your double jump, what were you thinking?! Also, it cancels the DJ at lower percents than Yoshi players (or at least I) would expect, which leaves you so vulnerable. So very, very vulnerable. Extra, avoidable percent is bad no matter what the reason. Didn't you read any of the bullets before this one?! Why are you taking unnecessary damage?!
Gea puts it best though:
[Update] Tested these options, edited accordingly.
~=~The Blanket~=~
While the blanket doesn't gimp recovery for Yoshi like it does for other characters, it's still a nuisance. The biggest concern is as a mindgame for recovery and anti-juggling. When getting back onto the ledge, if the Doc sees/expects to be F-aired or D-aired, one hit from the blanket throws off aim completely. If you expect to be blanketed, you can just overshoot it, but once a strategy delves into reverse psychology, it quickly become less reliable than you think. Besides, a N-air would work just as well.
What I mean by anti-juggling is that the blanket works like Marth's side-B. Normally once the double jump has been exhausted the only two options are fall normally, fast fall, or airdodge. In any case a u-smash would do the trick (the dodge might work, but the lag could be at least followed up with something simple like a tilt). It's kind of tough to remember a fourth option (the blanket). It can get frustrating to be tricked into a smash, tilt, or whatever, but it's completely avoidable. Use attacks like a U-air (probably not DJC'd to make sure the coward eats some tail) or a late RDJC'd N-air. Or even a retreat by wavedash to F-smash. Just think about it before you throw what would in any other case be an instant U-tilt/smash/air.
Oh, and be careful with eggs, they're all fine and good if they hit the Doc, but they're easy to blanket back to you if he's close enough. One good mindgame to throw every now and then is that if the Doc seems to get blanket happy when you throw an egg, throw one to miss his blanket, then rush in and take him out during his lag. Be confident when doing this, and don't overuse it! NEVER ECE AGAINST DOC! It just isn't worth it. Not only are the regular concerns of SD'ing yourself still there, but now you have to worry about timing the ECE perfectly so that when he returns the egg it will explode during your invincible frames.
~=~Dash Attacks~=~
The Doc's dash attack lasts very long (think Jigglypuff's side-B), normally can shield pierce, and sets up well for combos. Yoshi is immune to the shield pierce, but the only good to be had out of that would be a shield grab, which we all know is risky at best (more info in the Grab Game section). Yoshi's dash attack lasts very long and has uses of its own. The biggest two problems with Yoshi's dash attack are that it lasts so **** long that Doc can shield it and shffl a F-air in the time it takes to get past the lag. The other huge problem is that at percentages below 50%, the knockback is so weak that in most cases Doc can recover from his lag and grab you before you recover from your lag, and you were the one attacking! The best use for Yoshi's dash attack is as an edgeguard, but there are other, more general uses that you already use it for.
~=~A Quick Note on DI~=~
This is should already a given, but if you're like me, you didn't realize that DI'ing away from the stage/attacker can sometimes get you out of a combo (or combo finisher). I know I sound like a nublet saying that, but when I realized this I felt I grew up a little. :o
[Update 1 starts here]
~=~Edgeguarding~=~
Edgeguarding the Doc is harder than it seems. Dash attacks work somewhat well if it's either unexpected or the Doc misses that sweetspot (which shouldn't happen often). F-air is hard to pull off because, as I said earlier, a simple blanket will throw off your aim and leave you in a sort of disadvantageous place where now YOU are being edgeguarded against. D-air might work, but I have a hard time actually landing it. I would imagine it would be worth landing one, since the Doc's vertical recovery isn't too hot. Also, an up-B could potentially ruin your double jump at higher percents so he would drag you down as well. Maybe. The most advantageous way to go would probably be the simple, gimpy N-air. Throw it a little early, so he doesn't get much vertical knockback, just loses his double jump (and maybe his tornado recovery). I dunno, that's harder than it sounds. If you have to do some dash dancing mindgames to make him think you won't instant edgehog, do it. Just make sure you don't miss your chance to edgehog, because Doc has the uncanny ability to make you pay for it.
For the sweetspotting Doc, edgehog would be your best option, don't try to get fancy and F-air or D-air; the timing is too tricky. Take a minimalistic approach to the sweetspotter, if you can ever edgehog, do. Yoshi's instant edgehog is just too beautiful not to. Oh, and PLEASE save yourself the heartache and roll to continue edgehogging. Don't try to be fancy and just pop up normally because the Doc can grab the ledge longer than logic would lead you to believe.
Doc's a hard one to edgeguard, but a good edgeguard is key to the victory here. Don't take any chances, you've gotten Doc so close to his death. Finish him. Combo for show, edgeguard for dough.
[Update] After trying this (and the variations found in burntsocks' other posts), I found that the n-air works much more consistently. Depending on the situation though, you may have to resort to a sock slap, so don't think I'm totally discounting it. Besides, who doesn't like the satisfaction of getting to yell "YOU JUST GOT SOCK SLAPPED, SON!" (Note: You must yell those words if you sock slap someone. Every word. With passion.)
One more time, because it can't be said enough: Don't try to be fancy, any time a simple edgehog will work, do it.
~=~Grab Game~=~
I understand that Yoshi's grab is slow and has huge lag should you miss; the point here is not to miss, and honestly, it isn't that tough. Look at it this way, look at all of Doc's laggy moves. These can be shieldgrabbed by Yoshi. Even with such a slow start up grab. I know there aren't many out there, but moves like D-smash and Doc's dash attack are good to shieldgrab from every now and then. Same goes for the running grab. Just be on the lookout for times when you can grab, because it will be worth it if you pull it off.
The reason I say this is not because there's some kind of amazing combo you can automatically pull from grabbing the Doc (though at lower %'s you can go from U-throw/D-throw to U-smash, and from then on, pretty nicely), I say this because if you connect with every grab you throw, the Doc's game will be thrown off dramatically. Think about it. Chances are a Doc who is used to playing Yoshi will have gotten used to throwing laggy attacks and getting away with it. Let them know when they've crossed that line.
Oh, and if you grab someone, please for heaven's sake chew them once or twice at least. Every % you can get from a grab will make the risk even more worth taking.
~=~Neutral-B/Egg Lay~=~
If you're like me, and you overuse certain moves like the RDJC N-air, you can stop being predictable very easily! Introducing...the RDJC Egg Lay!! :D :D :D
This move will instantly make your opponent regret shielding! It will make them think before they land whether they should shield or not, which is exactly what you want them to do. When your opponent no longer has to question whether or not to react in a certain way, you know you are doing something terribly wrong.
Options for when they are Egged:
(1) Egg lay them again! Though next to impossible to do more than once, it has its perks (such as looking awesome).
(2) B-air them in the egg as they fall! It may not hit every time, but it's easy percent if you connect even once. Plus, you can follow up with a U-air or N-air as they break free!
(3) D-air them in the egg as they fall! It may not hit every time, but it's easy percent if you connect even once. Honestly, I would recommend B-air since it comes out faster and is easier to connect/follow up with.
(4) U-air or N-air them in the egg as they fall! Maybe even twice! U-air would be better than N-air, but hey, if you really don't like B-air or U-air that much...
(5) Taunt! It may not help you (and may get you hit IRL), but it certainly was called for! (Please don't taunt during these precious moments of having them on the defensive. It was probably tough on Yoshi to eat, digest, create an egg for, and go through child birth in under a second, so please don't waste all that hard work with a pointless taunt.)
~=~Recovery~=~
So recovering is fairly simple against Doc, just don't repeat yourself if possible. When coming from above mix it up between the sweetspot down-B edgegrab (use that sparingly, it's tough to get back from there to a place where you can turn the match around), falling normally (with an aerial, b-air, d-air, and n-air work best, though d-air has surprisingly low priority), fast-falling at the right moment (with an aerial probably), air dodge (not recommended, U-airs have very little lag, and most Docs can take advantage of your lag and aerial you anyway), and side-B to dodge that pesky f-air or u-air (if you see the Doc will make it to you on the stage before you pop out, feel free to double back at him, but only once!).
From below you can air dodge onto the stage from below (to avoid that n-air or whatever), you can up-B to sweetspot the edge (edgeguarders will eat you if you aren't careful, though), you can do an aerial just as you pass the edge (Kind of tricky to time, but a u-air or n-air can save you sometimes), you can just use the double jump to go through whatever they attack you with (beware your % though, F-airs are pesky in this respect as they can mess with you), or you can waveland onto the edge (I find this one especially useful because Yoshi seems easier to waveland with than any other character, for me at least. Also, be sure to follow up with a quick F-smash or U-smash your attacker once you waveland (presumably with them now closer to the edge).
[Update] So I was playing against the Doc today, and while recovering (from above) I came down with a neutral-B/egg lay, then jumped up and edgehogged the shocked Doc. It was probably situational, but I think it's a good example of not discounting the egg lay.
~=~Shielding~=~
A good alternative to being hit? You probably already have your own strategies for shielding at this point, but if you don't, here are a few pointers. (1) Yoshi cannot jump out of his shield. I know, it sucks. (2) Yoshi's shieldgrab is horrendously slow. Chances are you will only make that mistake once. (3) Yoshi takes one more frame out of shield than all other characters; it sounds miniscule, but it always throws me off. (4) The only ways to instantly break out of your shield are to roll or spotdodge and let go of the shield button. Once you finish your roll/spotdodge, Yoshi can do any attack/dash/jump/wavedash/etc. instantly. (You can also supershield, but let's not worry about that for now, shall we?)
Oh, and here's some gracious input from a certain Gea:
~=~Counter-Picking a Stage~=~
A good counterpick will both play to Yoshi's strengths and Doc's weaknesses. Let's take a look at some of those might be...
Yoshi's Strengths and Doc's Weaknesses in terms of stage choice:
~ Yoshi has much better vertical and horizontal recovery than the Doc (gimping aside).
~ Yoshi is heavier than Doc.
~ Yoshi can meteor. Doc cannot.
~ Yoshi is more maneuverable than Doc in the air.
~ Doc's projectiles work most effectively when fired from a distance.
~ Many of Doc's combos can be disrupted by platforms. That is to say, they hurt Doc more than Yoshi in this respect.
All of these seem to point to a stage that has large boundaries, has platforms, and has little room for Doc's pills.
As Gea puts it:
Of course all of this sounds good on paper, but what it really comes down to is what stage you think you play best on. It might be Final Destination; it might be Dreamland; it could even be Kongo Jungle.
~=~A Quick Note on Edge Canceled Eggs~=~
I personally do not recommend them. Whether facing Doc or Jigglypuff or whoever, I consider Edge Canceled Eggs (ECE's) to be a pointless gamble.
You might do 100 ECE's in a row, which would be more than impressive...until you mess up your attempt at 101, at which point you look like an idiot who killed himself trying to use a technique too difficult. Save yourself the embarrassment of killing yourself over a mundane 10%.
...IF you are too stubborn to give up ECE's because some guy on SmashBoards told you it will only lead you to your death, here are a few tips to cheating death.
(1) An overshot ECE leaves you slightly vulnerable. An undershot ECE leaves you dead. Overshoot.
(2) ECE's are addictive, and once you start landing eggs on your opponent, you won't want to stop. Take heed, the longer you drag out your ECE spree, the easier it is to either slip up and die or allow your opponent to catch you off guard.
(3) Don't go for an ECE if your opponent is about to hit you. The outcome is almost always this: You will lose your double jump and die.
There are TWO exceptions to my NO ECE'S rule
(1) If you are recovering from below and your opponent does not expect it, you can use your up-B to cancel out your jump, sweetspot the ledge, and hit your opponent with an egg. (BEWARE! Often your opponent had an aerial charging up anyway, so they may accidentally hit you. Also, it is easy to miss the ledge if you are out of practice, so again, overshoot if necessary. Just keep these risks in mind when going for the ECE sweetspot.)
(2) If you are on the stage and running toward the ledge, just before you run off the ledge, if you press up-B, you will fall off, grab the ledge, and pop off an egg. Essentially, you just performed a reverse ECE (RECE, and yes, I know there are other, much more dangerous ways to do this, but again, why put yourself in that much danger?
). Once again, beware the danger of pressing up-B too late, and following the egg to an early grave. Nothing quite kills an edgeguard like suicide....Okay, so maybe it wasn't a quick note, but it was important!
~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~~=~
~=~~=~~=~~=~*dies*
I know this mini-guide is too narrow (only one character matchup! D: ) to sticky, I may add more characters later. In the mean time, thanks Shiri for adding it to your stickied "Character Matchups" thread. <3
Also, I'll try to keep it updated with people's posts. Kind of...catalog them. Sort of. Right. Maybe. We'll see.
Sections to go:
Random updates when people start finally adding comments D:<
