Oh, sorry if that was you I quoted. I couldn't remember who it was, or what that person may have said afterwards. I just remember copying that quote down to respond to later. No anger meant, the post was aimed at the general audience rather than one selective person.
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Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?
- Thread starter DRaGZ
- Start date
who is Falco you ****ing moron.
The_Trap
Smash Cadet
bawwwwwwwwwwww young link is too good so lets make heavy mode the standard
baaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
baaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Yoshistar64
Smash Journeyman
For the last time, this isn't the reason we do this. It's to enhance Brawl's competitive play.
JugaBro
Smash Cadet
Hey, I see a lot of posts still asking about how nerfed recoveries are, even after I posted information to help stop questions about it. Just go check page 1, and compare a characters heavy recovery to normal recovery.
Anyway, I did a bit of testing with Sonic to see the best way to recover with him. As Pancake said (I think) SideB is the best way to recovery, but it can be ever better of the surface he tries to get to has a solid wall (aka NOT stages like Battlefield). So lets say he gets hit off a stage, pretty far. If he does his sideB move to get towards the stage, and does NOT waste his jump after he got hit, then once he hits the wall with sideB he can jump, wall jump, and then do upB to make on the edge, in most cases. His recovery is still nerfed, nothing can change that, but this makes it a little bit better. Hey, his ariels are better now anyway.
Anyway, I did a bit of testing with Sonic to see the best way to recover with him. As Pancake said (I think) SideB is the best way to recovery, but it can be ever better of the surface he tries to get to has a solid wall (aka NOT stages like Battlefield). So lets say he gets hit off a stage, pretty far. If he does his sideB move to get towards the stage, and does NOT waste his jump after he got hit, then once he hits the wall with sideB he can jump, wall jump, and then do upB to make on the edge, in most cases. His recovery is still nerfed, nothing can change that, but this makes it a little bit better. Hey, his ariels are better now anyway.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
Alright, this is something I think should be put in the first post:
Automatic L-cancelling
For some reason, everyone seems to think that the automatic lag-canceling of moves has somehow disappeared with more gravity. This is not the case. Any move which lag-canceled before still lag cancels after switching to heavy gravity--in all cases, the cancel is more noticeable. Moves like Marth's Fair, Wolf's Bair, Pika's Bair, etc. are now quite effective combo starters and chain starters.
Automatic L-cancelling
For some reason, everyone seems to think that the automatic lag-canceling of moves has somehow disappeared with more gravity. This is not the case. Any move which lag-canceled before still lag cancels after switching to heavy gravity--in all cases, the cancel is more noticeable. Moves like Marth's Fair, Wolf's Bair, Pika's Bair, etc. are now quite effective combo starters and chain starters.
Aminar
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 336
If your honestly serious about this you need to test it's effects on every character. From what I have seen it makes some characters near useless. Charizard becomes a flaming pack of poo. Peach is nerfed worse as well.
I haven't looked into it much though.
I haven't looked into it much though.
ScythedBlade
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2008
- Messages
- 26
(Hey anyone else have trouble with accessing Smashboards and instead getting a bunch of timeouts?)
Anyway ... umm camping, no that's just because some characters are sorta need to be camping ... but hey, yo ucan win against a camper ... anyway, nah just accept regular brawl as normal competetive play ...
Anyway ... umm camping, no that's just because some characters are sorta need to be camping ... but hey, yo ucan win against a camper ... anyway, nah just accept regular brawl as normal competetive play ...
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
Charizard is incredible. His f-air is an amazing approach, and his meteor spike is more effective.
Stop evaluating the characters based on how they are compared to standard brawl. Evaluate them individually.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
You have brought nothing to this conversation. Please read the thread.
Lock
Smash Apprentice
For Heavy Brawl to become any sort of tournament standard, it has to first overcome the massive problem of an extremely high barrier of entry for new tournament players. I've seen the change to Heavy Brawl being compared in this topic to being the same as earlier changes in competitive smash, such as making games 1v1, turning items off, and banning stages. However, changing to Heavy Brawl is much more serious than anything done before - the other changes listed were merely restrictions, whereas changing to Heavy Brawl will warp the gameplay itself (which is necessary to create the benefits discussed so far).
Countless Smash players who have never seen tournament play before have always done 1v1s (for an easy way to decide who's better between two people), have turned items off (an intuitive way to make things fairer), and avoided stages they didn't like. So if they were eventually to visit tournaments and see the restrictive rulesets, it wouldn't necessarily be very uncomfortable for them. Even people who always enjoy items, FFAs, and wacky stages could still grudgingly participate in a tournament, as the game would still feel familiar to them, only with less obstacles (other people, stage hazards) to worry about.
But I doubt very many out of the millions have played more than a few games in Heavy Brawl - and Heavy Brawl doesn't work anywhere near the same as restricting the number of players, items, or stages, as it actually changes the way characters move, the timing of many approaches, and probably many strategies. Heavy Brawl play will require people to practice specifically under Heavy Brawl to stand a chance, whereas people who practice 1v1s with items ON all day will still be OK in tournaments with items OFF if they were good players. Thus, a tournament standard with Heavy Brawl presents a much, much larger barrier to potential new tournament players than anything ever seen before.
Because of this, my guess is that such an idea won't take off, no matter how many benefits it adds to the competitive aspect of the game. Even if there was a special mode where all the characters had longer hitstun, dashdancing, wavedashing, L-canceling, and the rest of the package to make the game more competitive, at best I envision even this dream package merely being a side or joint tournament at Brawl events, just because too many players outside of or new to the tournament scene will only want to play what they're used to - regular, campy Brawl. After all, just look at nature of the opposition in this topic! Even if a sub-community with competitive players dedicated to Heavy Brawl were to be formed, it and any prizes at tournaments it has to offer is likely to be significantly dwarfed by normal Brawl.
Countless Smash players who have never seen tournament play before have always done 1v1s (for an easy way to decide who's better between two people), have turned items off (an intuitive way to make things fairer), and avoided stages they didn't like. So if they were eventually to visit tournaments and see the restrictive rulesets, it wouldn't necessarily be very uncomfortable for them. Even people who always enjoy items, FFAs, and wacky stages could still grudgingly participate in a tournament, as the game would still feel familiar to them, only with less obstacles (other people, stage hazards) to worry about.
But I doubt very many out of the millions have played more than a few games in Heavy Brawl - and Heavy Brawl doesn't work anywhere near the same as restricting the number of players, items, or stages, as it actually changes the way characters move, the timing of many approaches, and probably many strategies. Heavy Brawl play will require people to practice specifically under Heavy Brawl to stand a chance, whereas people who practice 1v1s with items ON all day will still be OK in tournaments with items OFF if they were good players. Thus, a tournament standard with Heavy Brawl presents a much, much larger barrier to potential new tournament players than anything ever seen before.
Because of this, my guess is that such an idea won't take off, no matter how many benefits it adds to the competitive aspect of the game. Even if there was a special mode where all the characters had longer hitstun, dashdancing, wavedashing, L-canceling, and the rest of the package to make the game more competitive, at best I envision even this dream package merely being a side or joint tournament at Brawl events, just because too many players outside of or new to the tournament scene will only want to play what they're used to - regular, campy Brawl. After all, just look at nature of the opposition in this topic! Even if a sub-community with competitive players dedicated to Heavy Brawl were to be formed, it and any prizes at tournaments it has to offer is likely to be significantly dwarfed by normal Brawl.
hippochinfat!!
Smash Lord
Ganondorf can barely jump at all.
It is not balanced at all.
It is not balanced at all.
GenericKen
Smash Cadet
I played around with heavy brawl a bit earlier, and I must say that it feels pretty natural.
True, the difference between items switch and modifying gravity isn't exactly comparable, but I think heavy gravity is pretty comparable to the switch from timed to stock, in that they both require a fundamental shift in play style.
You mention changed timings as a barrier to entry, but aside from chain grabs, I don't think there are all that many timings to be memorized in standard brawl. Most of it is intuition, spacing, and mnid games.
Though the changing of timings on recoveries could be a bit of a sumbling block. One thing for certain is that the lvl 9 comps were NOT programmed for heavy gravity.
I'd still like to see how competitive standard brawl pans out, at least for one big tourney. I'm not yet convinced that it's all that bad.
JugaBro
Smash Cadet
Dont say stuff like that, it doesn't make you look any better, and isn't true. All you do is say something that you THINK is true and post it, like many others. I'm sorry, but its frustrating. First off, I did testing with Ganon and its true, his jumps are shorter. Like everyone else. Play Ganon in normal and you'l see he jumps short anyway. Infact, he is one of the characters less effected by HB, his upB is virtualy unaffected. I've even tried using him in battle, I can get out all his short hopped arials fine. If you cant, do a normal jump ariel since those are almost as short as a short hop.
Lock, you make good points; but the problem with saying something like that is that you think no one can adjust to it. If people actually started playing this way competitivly, others would eventually know about it and play this way if they ever planned to enter a tourney. Even if they didn't, others could host normal Brawl tournies alongside heavy until the newcomers get used to seeing it there, it realy isn't hard to have both. Anyway, it realy only takes about an hour or two to adjust to, try it yourself if you haven't.
A wild hypocrite appears. Hypocrite uses confuse. It's super effective.
It is impossible for certain characters to play heavy mode. It is not fair to all characters and certainly doesn't bring the game any closer to being balanced. I know. I tried. Once certain characters get knocked off, there is no way back. The game will still be campy with people camping corners to shield grab to back throw for kills. This changes nothing for the positive and only adds negatives.
So no, just no. Drop it.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
The ONLY character whose recovery is that bad is sonics. I know, my crew and I were playing with this mode for roughly 4 hours yesterday.
Try Pit. I main him. When we did a Heavy Match, I got knocked off and every "jump" just made me fall slower. Woot. The same whent for anyone with multiple jump recoveries. Jiggs, Meta, King D3, Kirby. It was horrible
JugaBro
Smash Cadet
Oh, I did. I tried Pit. And Jiggs. And Meta, and King D3, and Kirby. I tried ALL of the characters, I even posted the stats and height changes on them. And guess what? They are the characters with the BETTER recoveries, still. I dont know how much time you spent in Heavy Brawl, and how you determined about them being worse, but I spent time to actually compare the differences. I dont know how high you need a character to be in the air to "recover", but I find that all these characters are able to recover fine from almost any distance. Jiggs has her punch side recovery, Meta and Pit glide (and Pit having bad recovery? I get at least 2/3 the height of normal mode, and his upB and go from FD's ground to being in a bubble way up high), King D3 and Kirby still have good vertical recoveries. I hear all these very, very, lame posts about people complaining about the jumps or recovery of characters. The ONLY character who I thinks has even only half decent recovery is Sonic, and we still know a way around his. I want people who post here to at least read some of this thread, possibly all of it, before they post any complaints like this. Please. And if you dont have proof for your complaints, or it has already been refuted earlier in this thread, then dont post them.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Really? Have you really, truly tried it? I almost believed you until you mentioned Jigglypuff, because she is nearly unchanged, and Kirby, because he's still a floating beast.
I play with Ganondorf very often (he's like my fourth-most used character, and as I posted before I try to play with every character, except for Diddy, DK, and Peach, at least once whenever I play), and I've had no problems getting used to the way he plays. He actually feels much better to me since I can actually follow up after a successful approach now. He also kills at much lower percentages than before (more significantly than other characters), so his power in this mode seems to have been enhanced (in particular, his fsmash a powerful killer, his down+B rush can actually kill again, and gimping with Up+B is viable again).
I have played with every character in Heavy Mode, and every single character is enhanced in some way. Some characters need to adapt to work well, but they work much better than they did before (try doing approaches with DeDeDe now. Before, his entire game consisted of spacing his hammer, now it consists of doing some freakin' punishment after a successful approach).
Pit has the second-best recovery in Heavy Brawl, so I don't know what you're talking about.
I get the feeling that you baaaarely tried this mode out and just stopped out of your own convictions. I know, because when I first heard of Heavy Brawl I did exactly that as well. But now I realize it deepens the game more than anything else Brawl has to offer, and it may very well save our already flailing competitive scene.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
I'm going to record a video of all character's recoveries in Heavy Brawl when I have time. Perhaps that will help.
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
If any nay-sayers to Heavy Brawl can at least come up with proof on how anti-camping characters can overcome a proficient camper in normal brawl without being rediculously skilled compared to their opponent, please post. You will IMMEDIENTLY help contribute to Brawl's competetive scene before it dies out. (I only read through first 12 pages for the record)
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Did anyone see that?! He posted a video of two of the most projectile-oriented characters in the game! Dude! Seriously. Try that with Marth, or Ike, or half of the vets. If you choose to main a character who sits and shoots arrows or grenades, or whatever you're the one extending this campfest.
The game is fine. Play a character who excels at comboing if you're going to combo. Like Lucas. If you look at Melee's roster you find that only a handful were 'tournament material' (AKA in the Top or High Tier) the rest were trash. If you're going to pick up trash and use it as a standard for why the game sucks. You have the problem.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
I recorded all of the recoveries, but have to edit the video.
Aqueus, you fail to understand the problem. And no, lucas can't combo.
Aqueus, you fail to understand the problem. And no, lucas can't combo.
Inferno_blaze
Smash Lord
I'm going to give this a good try, sound like fun, I doubt it'll become the norm for me because within my friends we treat the campy spammy with scorn so we don't really do it, I doubt I'll play it as the norm but I'm sure it'll come up from time to time. Hey I'm looking at it with an open mind
I think we have different definitions of 'combo'. I'm not saying 50% to death, I'm saying SHNAir into a Fsmash, or SHDAir into a Dsmash. Maybe you can break out of those, but I haven't had anyone be successful, mind you, I only get a chance to play scrubs online and friends at work.
Combos aren't the same in Brawl as Melee. I've seen a few problems with characters such as ROB camping, why is anyone letting him camp? Who are the most effective campers? Pit? Olimar? Pit is probably the only effective camper I've seen. Snake does do too well with his grenades, they require too much time to go off. ROB only has the Gyro (which is a beast, I agree) and his Neutral B, which is too predictable.
Give me some examples so I can counter. I do agree that combos from 0% to death are gone, and good riddance. This game does require a mindset shift where each hit means something. Hit your opponent with a weak attack with no follow-up in mind and you get punished immediately. Hit an opponent with Lucas' FAir and you get some breathing room to set up your next attack. Make your attacks count. Spamming good moves wastes them now and diminishes their knockback power.
Combos aren't the same in Brawl as Melee. I've seen a few problems with characters such as ROB camping, why is anyone letting him camp? Who are the most effective campers? Pit? Olimar? Pit is probably the only effective camper I've seen. Snake does do too well with his grenades, they require too much time to go off. ROB only has the Gyro (which is a beast, I agree) and his Neutral B, which is too predictable.
Give me some examples so I can counter. I do agree that combos from 0% to death are gone, and good riddance. This game does require a mindset shift where each hit means something. Hit your opponent with a weak attack with no follow-up in mind and you get punished immediately. Hit an opponent with Lucas' FAir and you get some breathing room to set up your next attack. Make your attacks count. Spamming good moves wastes them now and diminishes their knockback power.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
i will test this out.
Doomgaze
Smash Apprentice
Or hit your opponent with a strong(slow) attack and get punished immediately.
If you seriously think that there wont be "trash" characters in Brawl, you are mistaken my friend.
Superstar
Smash Champion
To be honest, I read most of the pages, but I might have missed one or two cause of my laziness. Most were the same thing over and over anyways, the common idiot and rebuttal.
I remember in the beginning I disproved of Heavy Brawl, as it was changing the physics. However, as I get better and I play more I'm noticing the campy nature the game is getting. Sometimes I wish the delay to start reflecting on the shine didn't exist, or Fox's lasers were better, so I could camp. When I do combo, its usually a drill to something else, and the spammy nature is long and boring, Fox's running speed/range is not as fast as I'd like it. I was actually getting bored of the game due to its too easy learning curve as well.
I tried Heavy Brawl after reading this thread and I am liking it. Approaches just seem to work better, and edgeguarding is possible. Pika's chaingrab on Fox stayed the same length of time, I was thinking it'd get worse. Recoveries were nerfed, yes, but ALL recoveries were nerfed. I actually like that more.
About the giving this time thing that so many people are spewing out, the time it'd take for Heavy Brawl to get tested and implemented is more than enough time even if started now. Many people would be skeptical of it, and very few tournaments would adopt it. If those are a success, then more would have it, but it'd be a slow process. And about some unlikely offensive approach AT being randomly discovered, it could also be found in Heavy Brawl given enough time anyways, so I say why not? It makes me know that Nintendo's online is even MORE fail as that's the only way aside against from my brother where I could play other people, and I don't have my license yet even though I'm old enough to begin working for it [almost 18 now].
Also, if its all about getting good hits in, wouldn't spamming projectiles be enough then? You have a lot of breathing room, and it accomplishes the same event of getting paltry damage.
I remember in the beginning I disproved of Heavy Brawl, as it was changing the physics. However, as I get better and I play more I'm noticing the campy nature the game is getting. Sometimes I wish the delay to start reflecting on the shine didn't exist, or Fox's lasers were better, so I could camp. When I do combo, its usually a drill to something else, and the spammy nature is long and boring, Fox's running speed/range is not as fast as I'd like it. I was actually getting bored of the game due to its too easy learning curve as well.
I tried Heavy Brawl after reading this thread and I am liking it. Approaches just seem to work better, and edgeguarding is possible. Pika's chaingrab on Fox stayed the same length of time, I was thinking it'd get worse. Recoveries were nerfed, yes, but ALL recoveries were nerfed. I actually like that more.
About the giving this time thing that so many people are spewing out, the time it'd take for Heavy Brawl to get tested and implemented is more than enough time even if started now. Many people would be skeptical of it, and very few tournaments would adopt it. If those are a success, then more would have it, but it'd be a slow process. And about some unlikely offensive approach AT being randomly discovered, it could also be found in Heavy Brawl given enough time anyways, so I say why not? It makes me know that Nintendo's online is even MORE fail as that's the only way aside against from my brother where I could play other people, and I don't have my license yet even though I'm old enough to begin working for it [almost 18 now].
Also, if its all about getting good hits in, wouldn't spamming projectiles be enough then? You have a lot of breathing room, and it accomplishes the same event of getting paltry damage.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Okay, since there are a few people who still think recoveries are nerfed in Heavy Brawl, I am taking the time to do an in-depth analysis of recovery on every character...okay? After this, just refer to this list I am making before you attempt to claim recovery sucks.
Here's a few trends I've been seeing:
Recoveries in practice:
Here's a few trends I've been seeing:
- All horizontal recoveries are virtually unaffected.
- Gliding is unaffected.
- Contrary to popular belief, tether recoveries are unaffected.
- Momentum-based Up+B moves are affected.
- Projectiles are not affected.
- Everyone also falls faster (duh), so getting the maximum height out of your jumps involves more careful timing of double-jumping/multi-jumping at the peak of the previous jump (especially noticeable with Fox, Captain Falcon, and Wolf).
- EVERYONE'S jumps have been decreased in height, not just your favorite character's/main's jumps.
Recoveries in practice:
- Mario: Needs to use his cape more, but his jumps are nearly the same, and his Up+B is unaffected.
- Luigi: Even less changed that Mario. He almost seems completely unaffected due to his relative floatiness in the air already. His down+B recovery sends him about as high, his side+B recovery hasn't lost any vertical momentum (although he falls a tad more quickly as he's charging), and his up+B recovery is unchanged,
- Peach: Nearly unchanged. Her regular jumps are slightly shorter, but her up+B seems to descend at the same rate as before (it also climbs the same distance it did before).
- Bowser: He jumps shorter, but his Up+B has the same vertical and horizontal distance traveling as before.
- Donkey Kong: Nearly unchanged. His jumps feel normal and his Up+B isn't nerfed in the slightest.
- Diddy Kong: Because Diddy Kong needs to charge his Up+B to be effective, it his now a bit trickier to get this to work: you have to aim perfectly at the ledge and keep in mind your rate of descent along with how long who have been charging so far. It reminds me of sweetspotting grapple recoveries in Melee except now it's vertical and there is more time to think. This, in particular, makes his side+B recovery way more valuable.
- Yoshi: Almost nothing has changed. His second jump is still massive and his initial egg throw still gives him lift.
- Wario: You can no longer ride his bike all the way back from half a Final Destination's length away from the ledge, but it's still a very effective way of gaining another jump (more like one-and-a-half jumps really). His Up+B is unaffected.
- Link: His Up+B is a bit shorter than usual. His jumps are also slightly shorter. Overall, though, his recovery seems still okay (you can run off the stage and nair to ledge-guard and then recover with a double jump and Up+B fairly easily).
- Zelda: Her jumps feel unchanged, and her Up+B is still a massively good recovery.
- Sheik: She jumps slightly shorter, but it's barely noticeable. Her Up+B works the same way.
- Ganondorf: He jumps shorter than before, but his Up+B is unchanged.
- Toon Link: His inherent floatiness makes it so that he's nearly unchanged. The only thing that is affected is his Up+B, which still functions as an excellent recovery move.
- Samus: Her jumps are somewhat shorter as is her Up+B. However, her inherent DI makes usual recovery not a big issue. Her bomb jumps no longer work, however.
- Zero Suit Samus: A great jumper, as usual. Her tether recoveries are completely unaffected and her down+B recovery follows the same arc with the same speed as before.
- Pit: His multi-jumps give him less height, but his Up+B, after the initial "saggy-drop" is unaffected. His gliding is also unaffected.
- Ice Climbers: Their jumps are still really good. Their side+B no longer gives them vertical height as they do it (maybe I'm not doing it fast enough, I was never very good with it). Their Up+B is unchanged.
- R.O.B.: R.O.B.'s jumps are shorter, but his Up+B, after the initial "saggy-drop", is unchanged.
- Kirby: Kirby's jumps still give him lots of horizontal and vertical distance distance, they feel nearly the same. His Up+B is also unchanged.
- Metaknight: His jumps now basically only provide horizontal recovery (his jumps feel fine over the ground for some reason). All of his B move recoveries are unchanged, and his gliding is unchanged as well.
- DeDeDe: His jumps are now mainly for horizontal recovery (but, again, like with Metaknight, his jumps feel okay over the ground for some reason). His Up+B is now much faster, albeit just a tad bit shorter.
- Olimar: Olimar's jumps are fine. His tether recovery is also unaffected.
- Fox: Still jumps about as high as normal, but he falls very quickly in this mode so timing the double jump at the peak of the first jump is key. His Up+B and side+B are unaffected, and he can still do his "floating in the air" stall tactic with spammed down+Bs.
- Falco: Falco actually doesn't fall very fast in this game, so his jumps are about as comfortable as in regular Brawl. Again, Up+B is unaffected as is the Side+B.
- Wolf: Wolf also falls quickly in this game, so timing the second jump at the peak of the initial jump is key. His Up+B is still unaffected as is his side+B.
- Captain Falcon: Captain Falcon's always been a great jumper, so his jumps still feel fine. He falls somewhat quickly in this mode, so timing his second jump is necessary for when you need the maximum height. His Up+B is unaffected, and his side+B still has a nice "kick-up" effect when you hit an opponent in mid-air with it.
- Pikachu: Still a beastly jumper. His side+B recovery falls only slightly faster as it charges but is unaffected after release. Of course, his Up+B is also unaffected.
- Charizard: His jumps are now primarily for horizontal distance, although, like with Metaknight and DeDeDe, his jumps feel fine over ground. Gliding is going to be very important for this character. His Up+B is unaffected.
- Squirtle: He still jumps around like a crazy little *******. His side+B is a slightly less useful recovery because it now travels downward at a 45-degree angle rather than the previous 60-degree angle. His Up+B is unchanged.
- Bulbasaur: His jumping skills seems to have been unchanged. His tether recovery is still fine.
- Jigglypuff: She is now the master of the air, and her aerial prowess with her jumps make her the biggest envy of Wario now. She can literally go underneath Final Destination and make it to the other side, no sweat.
- Marth: His jumps seem mostly unaffected and his Up+B is unchanged.
- Ike: Ike's jumps are a bit shorter than before, and his side+B recovery has been hindered since he falls more quickly now. Thus, his best recovery option lies in his Aether. Fortunately, the super armor frames on his Up+B makes him one of the few characters that can't be easily gimped when right below the ledge.
- Ness: His jumps are still great, and his Up+B is mostly unaffected.
- Lucas: The same thing for Lucas, his jumps are still phenomenal and his Up+B is still very quick.
- Mr. Game and Watch: His first jump seems unchanged, but his second jump is definitely nerfed a bit. His Up+B is unchanged, including the rate at which the parachute drops.
- Snake: His first jump is a bit nerfed, but his second jump doesn't seem to be nerfed at all (strange, huh?). His Up+B is still an excellent recovery and relatively unchanged after the initial "saggy drop".
- Sonic: His jumps are a bit shorter, and his Up+B just plain sucks now (I use it more often for "bomb-dropping" than anything else). His side+B is his most reliable recovery, although it too has seen a bit of a vertical decrease. His neutral is his best option if an opponent is near the ledge, and it's a really funny way to catch them off-guard if they ledge-guard you unsuccessfully.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
Hmm...you don't main R.O.B., huh?
I main R.O.B., and he doesn't have to be spammy to win. But it's a very efficient way for him to win, so why try anything else. Snake doesn't have to be campy either, but he had no way of approaching R.O.B. because R.O.B.'s spamming options are simply too good.
And we're not talking just projectiles here. Game and Watch might take the cake for the best camper in the game due to his nasty b-air.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
That is awesome dude.
Do you think that there's any way you could post up matches of Heavy Brawl?
EDIT: GAH! I just realized I triple posted. Sorry, sorry, sorry...
Firstly: Hit your opponent with a strong(slow) attack and you'll send them flying. Tell me how someone is going to punish you for getting an uncharged FSmash from Ike to land? Similarly for Lucas' FAir, TL's DAir, Lucario's DAir, etc. You send your opponent flying.
Again, example, please. Otherwise I'm just using anecdotal evidence.
Secondly: I never said there won't be trash characters. But a tier list hasn't been developed. ROB may fall into one of the lowest tiers. The video I mentioned was between Snake and ROB, it was a projectilefest that boiled down to Gyro, Laser, Grenade X2, Snakeslide, repeat. Snake has one of the weakest approaches in the game, why should he approach? ROB on the other hand has a dearth of SH potential, not to mention odd applications of his attacks, like >B to reflect a grenade or initiate an attack.
I also notice that in the video the characters only sat there for the first 30 seconds. Yes, it's dumb, make a tournament rule against it, I don't care. Afterward they tussle for another minute before they breakdown again. This is a problem with their mentality. Rather than one or the other press the offensive they devolve back into this mindless Grenade/Laser BS.
Superstar
Smash Champion
I mainly said recoveries were nerfed because of the falling speed, they are still good though. Just means that if you have to be at a higher altitude if you were knocked farther away, because of the falling you are doing inbetween there and the stage, you can still recover. Recoveries in Brawl were dead broken anyways.
Also, my brother likes Jiggs more after Heavy Gravity for some reason. I wasn't a Jiggs main in Melee.
Also, Aqueus dude, it is a problem with their mentality, in a tournament you play to win. If camping works, might as well use it, I'm more of a blame the game rather than blame the person kind of dude. Also, I'd rather be hit with an Fair rather than a thousand arrows. In the time it takes to punish them with one attack they have given you more damage.
Also, my brother likes Jiggs more after Heavy Gravity for some reason. I wasn't a Jiggs main in Melee.
Also, Aqueus dude, it is a problem with their mentality, in a tournament you play to win. If camping works, might as well use it, I'm more of a blame the game rather than blame the person kind of dude. Also, I'd rather be hit with an Fair rather than a thousand arrows. In the time it takes to punish them with one attack they have given you more damage.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
This is not just their mentality. This was the mentality of nearly everyone at this tournament. Look at the rest of the videos. Plus, how are you going to ban camping? Ban it for thirty second? What if at 29 seconds they stop for a moment then start again? Maybe put up a five-second cooldown time, but what really defines when they start the camping? It's a rule that can't be enforced.
Firstly: If you hit with a strong attack in the regular Brawl, congratulations, you've just won a guessing game. Want to follow up? Not until you guess correctly again! This is where the problem lies: there is no punishment game.
In Heavy Brawl, even after a strong hit you can follow up and chase down the opponent doing decent damage (a combo here usually yields about 25-45% damage depending on what you do). In other words, you're rewarded for guessing correctly and exploiting an opponent's mistake, which should be the risk-reward-punishment system built into any competitive game.
In Regular Brawl, because sitting still gave you more defensive options, you were actually at an advantage in this guessing game by camping when going against an approaching opponent.
In Heavy Brawl, the approacher gets a speed boost while the camper does not, thus there is a balanced struggle between the camper and the approacher: the one who exploits the other's mistake the most effectively is then rewarded with some damage through a combo. No fuss, no muss.
Secondly, Snake has one of the weakest approaches in the game...are you kidding me? His dash attack is probably the best in the game. His RAR is amazingly effective if you time it correctly. A freakin' straight-on nair approach is great with Snake. The problem in that match was that an inherently campy R.O.B. forced him to be campy as well. Therein lies the problem in regular Brawl which is subsequently fixed in Heavy Brawl.
GameAngel64
Smash Journeyman
For a moment in time there I thought I was the only one who noticed that Brawl matches and victories were becoming all about camping/spamming. However I see the boards are alive and abuzz about this issue. I quote you because it's so true. Many matches are now a battle of frustration, who will crack first, who can hold out and spam their projectile, or just hide away, the longest. It's just not fun to play that way.
That being said, something about making high gravity mode the competitive default kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I really don't have any thoughtful counterpoints (at this moment that I feel like typing out), but my gut reaction is to oppose a shift in that direction. However, I'm willing to keep an open mind about the idea. I still need to read the rest of the posts in this thread.
Maybe I'll be swayed.
Rebonack
Smash Apprentice
Normally this is where I would qualify that I'm a newcomer to the boards and not much of a competitive player, but I doubt that really has much bearing on the subject at hand. Except for as follows.
It allows me to scrutinize this situation as something of an outsider.
The overwhelming response to Brawl that I've witnessed among competitive players is negative in regards to its competitive playability. Defense is too strong, approach is too slow, can't combo, everyone has heard it all before. With the exception of a small minority it appears as though the smash community feels that camping contests aren't particularly fun.
And so a potential solution to this problem has been suggested.
Heavy brawl alleviates all of these problems.
Despite the ability of heavy brawl to alleviate these shortcomings a great deal of opposition has been raised to it. Some seem to be purely sentimental, such as the objection to using a non-standard rule set as the standard for tournaments.
Others are based around conceptions of particular characters getting the short end of the stick. Such as Pit. Though to be quite honest I find it hard to feel sorry for Pit due to the fact he can still fly all the way around the bottom of Battlefield in heavy brawl. Sonic, as has been pointed out already, has his vertical gimped significantly by this change.
Now then, while it has been pointed out before it seems reasonable to bring up again the fact that Brawl, and Melee before it, already use non-standard rules for tournaments. Items are of course the most obvious example. While it's true that the changes to the game caused by heavy brawl are certainly different than those caused by turning items off I think it's safe to say that they both have a drastic impact on the way the game is played.
On to the objection regarding the barrier to newcomers joining the tournament scene... well... I have no doubts that most any competitive player would summarily destroy me. But in even the few hours that I've experimented with heavy brawl I've found that the negative impact on play-style is minimal. Attacks still come out at the same range. They still have the same delay and lag. The only real difference is the ability to string attacks together better and the fact that I'm no longer flying over people's heads with aerials any longer. I don't doubt that anyone with any real experience in Smash would be able to adapt to heavy brawl quite easily. And should heavy brawl become the tournament standard you can bet that many people will adopt it simply because 'that's how the pros play'.
In the end, however this situation pans out it probably won't affect me. I probably won't ever go to a tournament. But I think that if heavy brawl really does make the game more competitively viable for competitive players then you guys should go for it and not look back.
After all, the point of the game is to have fun in the end. And most people seem to think a competitively deep game is more fun than a camp-fest.
It allows me to scrutinize this situation as something of an outsider.
The overwhelming response to Brawl that I've witnessed among competitive players is negative in regards to its competitive playability. Defense is too strong, approach is too slow, can't combo, everyone has heard it all before. With the exception of a small minority it appears as though the smash community feels that camping contests aren't particularly fun.
And so a potential solution to this problem has been suggested.
Heavy brawl alleviates all of these problems.
Despite the ability of heavy brawl to alleviate these shortcomings a great deal of opposition has been raised to it. Some seem to be purely sentimental, such as the objection to using a non-standard rule set as the standard for tournaments.
Others are based around conceptions of particular characters getting the short end of the stick. Such as Pit. Though to be quite honest I find it hard to feel sorry for Pit due to the fact he can still fly all the way around the bottom of Battlefield in heavy brawl. Sonic, as has been pointed out already, has his vertical gimped significantly by this change.
Now then, while it has been pointed out before it seems reasonable to bring up again the fact that Brawl, and Melee before it, already use non-standard rules for tournaments. Items are of course the most obvious example. While it's true that the changes to the game caused by heavy brawl are certainly different than those caused by turning items off I think it's safe to say that they both have a drastic impact on the way the game is played.
On to the objection regarding the barrier to newcomers joining the tournament scene... well... I have no doubts that most any competitive player would summarily destroy me. But in even the few hours that I've experimented with heavy brawl I've found that the negative impact on play-style is minimal. Attacks still come out at the same range. They still have the same delay and lag. The only real difference is the ability to string attacks together better and the fact that I'm no longer flying over people's heads with aerials any longer. I don't doubt that anyone with any real experience in Smash would be able to adapt to heavy brawl quite easily. And should heavy brawl become the tournament standard you can bet that many people will adopt it simply because 'that's how the pros play'.
In the end, however this situation pans out it probably won't affect me. I probably won't ever go to a tournament. But I think that if heavy brawl really does make the game more competitively viable for competitive players then you guys should go for it and not look back.
After all, the point of the game is to have fun in the end. And most people seem to think a competitively deep game is more fun than a camp-fest.
Then I guess we diverge in mentality. I prefer the approach method. It's more fun to me, more rewarding. I've yet to find a person who camps so well that I can't meet them hit for hit when they use this 'supreme tactic'.
You say "That's wrong! It shouldn't be a 1-for-1 tradeoff." It's not. In most circumstances I can at least make the trade-off 1-for-1. It's usually more brutal than that. Pit is the most notorious and I never find his arrow spam to be able to keep me at bay.
As a little aside, I play with my shield button set to Y, so I leap off the ground with dodge/invincible frames, double jump with more dodge frames and begin my approach. Ever so rarely do I get hit with more than one arrow.
Yet again, I am left without examples to counter. I don't find camping to be a problem, nor do I find it difficult to combo effectively. No I can't 0-to-death my opponent, but I never thought it should be that way.
Perhaps this is just my small-mindedness, and, mind you, I did abuse it, but I never liked Fox's Shine. Killing someone just because you 'guessed' right, or got one move off correctly shouldn't mean that an opponent dies before they've gotten a chance to counter (waveshine to edgehog), or offer up any attack of their own. Nobody should die to less than five moves that end in a shine. It's just stupid, it wasn't balanced, it wasn't fun, why would you ever gamble on a different move. Why work for a vertical kill when you can just shine someone off? It's this kind of laziness that leads to this same campy mindset. Press the attack, you'll find that campers quickly change suits.
You say "That's wrong! It shouldn't be a 1-for-1 tradeoff." It's not. In most circumstances I can at least make the trade-off 1-for-1. It's usually more brutal than that. Pit is the most notorious and I never find his arrow spam to be able to keep me at bay.
As a little aside, I play with my shield button set to Y, so I leap off the ground with dodge/invincible frames, double jump with more dodge frames and begin my approach. Ever so rarely do I get hit with more than one arrow.
Yet again, I am left without examples to counter. I don't find camping to be a problem, nor do I find it difficult to combo effectively. No I can't 0-to-death my opponent, but I never thought it should be that way.
Perhaps this is just my small-mindedness, and, mind you, I did abuse it, but I never liked Fox's Shine. Killing someone just because you 'guessed' right, or got one move off correctly shouldn't mean that an opponent dies before they've gotten a chance to counter (waveshine to edgehog), or offer up any attack of their own. Nobody should die to less than five moves that end in a shine. It's just stupid, it wasn't balanced, it wasn't fun, why would you ever gamble on a different move. Why work for a vertical kill when you can just shine someone off? It's this kind of laziness that leads to this same campy mindset. Press the attack, you'll find that campers quickly change suits.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I was literally chuckling in delight at how awesome your first post on this board is.
Awesome...*does the Bill and Ted guitar thing again*
This makes me think that you've never gone against a really campy camper.
I also think you're misunderstanding what we mean by camping. It's not just projectile spamming. It's sitting near the freakin' edge and waiting for the opponent to come. In regular Brawl it's a good thing if your opponent approaches, because you can so easily perform one of several defensive options against it and counter-attack.
For instance, Game and Watch is a great camper because he can powershield and sidestep all day while spamming d-tilt and b-air, not because he can projectile spam. Metaknight is an excellent camper because all off his attacks are absurdly fast. Pit is a great camper not just because of his projectiles but also because of his powerful natural combos and finishers.
In Heavy Brawl, you can't really do this because the chance of getting punished for pure camping isn't worth the effort unless you do it flawlessly, which is something that actually takes some skill to do. Camping in regular Brawl as it is requires very little skill and doesn't go beyond what it already is.
EDIT: Also, you claim that all we're offering is anecdotal evidence, but in truth that's all that you're really offering us. We're actually collecting data on Heavy Brawl and trying to understand it as much as we can. You claim that we haven't given you anything to counter, but you haven't given us anything to even build an argument on.
Calm down, you misread me. I meant that you haven't given me any examples, and all I had to give was anecdotal evidence. Sorry for the confusion. I understand that we're looking for different things now, so I'll kindly withdraw.
It's my opinion that even if it requires a certain degree of skill, no player should be armed with a 'free-kill button' (shine), or a 'free 60% button' (many of the better combos reward the player with a stock lost - all of this because of a single mistake. Yes, it deserved punishment, it did not deserve the loss of a stock unless the player was at a high percentage, but that's where most combos thrived; low percentages gave the same advantages that Heavy Brawl is supposed to reward.
Now, before anyone flips out, I am on on the side of this Heavy Brawl thing. Whatever advances the competitive scene is sweet for me, however, I don't want Melee 2.0, I don't want the same lame combos (although I do like the idea that Footstool Jumping would actually be a worthwhile technique) to dominate the scene, nor do I want some characters devolving into trash because everyone has a third jump but Yoshi (Poor Yoshi, my favorite character, but why play someone who sucks that bad? Also note, I noticed he got buffed), etc. I will be trying out Heavy Brawl, it does make me a bit sad that I'll suffer from being unable to practice online. =( I can't fly out to whereverthehell whenever I want to join up a tournament. =\
So that's my schpiel.
I'll happily continue respond to rhetoric, though!