GreenKirby...thank you. You are a shining beacon of hope.
I couldn't check this thread for a while because I had no Internet for a bit after I moved, but I do now, so I will attempt to try to reply to everything
The only reason im not looking forward to heavy brawl as tournament standard is because i fear it may make a more defined tier list.
Im all for the removal of camping being the strategy of choice, but idk. I see more harm then good coming from this.
I'll probably stay out of this argument until more facts about each surface, but i think we should give normal brawl more of a chance considering, yes im being redundant, it is new. Things are slowly surfacing to make approaches just a little more affective. Like the Wavesmash, boost smash, whatever you want to call it.
But anyway i can't see this as being a welcome change.
I don't know what this is going to do to the tier list. Honestly, I don't think much is going to change in terms of tier lists because, right now, we don't even have a tier list anyway. If anything, it's going to unalienize the characters that couldn't deal with defensive camping to begin with, and, hell, who knows, that might actually make it
more balanced
Oh my god. This thread is just DRaGZ and almightypanacke mutually masturbating.
Do you guys really have that much trouble with campers? It is easy to avoid if you're, uh, good at the game.
On a personal basis, I don't want to condone Heavy Brawl as the standard for competetive nature because the designers put all of their efforts into creating the normal Brawl mod and it would be a heaping shame to disregard it for competetive play.
The designers never designed this game to be competitive. This is a fact we've known basically since Smash 64, although more obvious evidence of this has been surfacing as of late. In all honesty, if he truly...
truly wanted this game to be competitive, why would he put in tripping? That's like throwing a bunch of wet towels on the floor of a basketball game.
As I've said many times before, I do NOT have problems playing against campers. I can beat them, quite easily, by camping back with R.O.B. I have discovered a way to approach them with freakin' Ganondorf.
The problem is that I, as Toon Link, ALSO CAMP. I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO CAMP TO WIN, but sometimes it's necessary with the way this game is set up. I wouldn't have been experimenting with this mode if I didn't think there were plausible other ways to deal with this problem that is sucking the god**** life out of this game in a respectable competitive realm.
Also, we weren't "masturbating", we were just posting our experimenting results with the mode, and they've been
mostly positive.
Two questions for opposite sides of the debate:
1) How sure are we that higher levels of play in standard brawl are more campy and boring?
In the most pointed video posted, snake and ROB spammed projectiles at each other because snake was unable to make a successful approach. But the problem with snake's approach wasn't that ROB had too many defensive options. The problem was that even if Snake pushed ROB off the stage, ROB would just recover around snake with his absurd recovery.
The problem is that some recoveries are just too absurdly good and it makes edgeguarding too difficult. If the only kills you get are going to be from pure damage, why not spam projectiles?
So the question is: is camping really that prevailant in all the top tier matchups? Not all top tier characters have projectilves or obscene recoveries. Could we just conceede that some of the 46*(46+1)/2 possible matchups are going to be boring, or is this too prevalent?
2) Exactly what would the problem be with adopting Heavy Brawl?
Like others, I shared a subliminal distaste for the idea of actually using one of the optional game modes, as they've traditionally been stupid joke-modes. But abstractly, if the game does play better with it, is it actually all that different from turning items off or switching the mode to stock?
It still feels like it would be odd changing the game mode for the sake of making it less boring, as opposed to turning off items to reduce randomization in a tournament setting, and switching from timed to stock to avoid sudden death and reduce scoring system abuse.
How natural/appropriate does the custom mode feel? Were there videos linked earlier in this thread (I may have missed them)? I'll check it out this weekend.
R.O.B. is a top tier character in many tier lists going around. Ikki thinks Snake is the best character in the game. Oh yeah, they're up there. And if camping is the prevailing strategy, we're going to be seeing a loooot more of this.
Also, there were videos posted earlier a few months ago on another thread...I just looked and I can't find'em. I'll go look for the thread and then post the video in it here.
I hardly see why you are being flamed for this post. In one sentence, you speak a lot of truth. Seriously, its a new game, with new mechanics and new strategies. Brawl is competitive and deep as hell. If you disagree with that, either:
A) you haven't played the game long enough
B) you haven't played anyone good
C) you think having an opposing view point for the sake of having one is cool
Brawl, in its default form, is very balanced. Matches are determined (of course by skill) but also match ups and counters, as opposed to ones ability to cancel lag and move really fast. Making Heavy Brawl standard, would give heavy characters a huge disadvantage. The lower gravity helps (to some extent) automatically cancel lag, if the move is timed correctly. With higher gravity, this would be extremely difficult or impossible. In turn, in attempts to make the game more competitive, it would limit players to use faster characters.
Brawl is not Melee and never will be. Get over it. A lot of you assume that Brawl is a step back, but really, making Brawl more like Melee, isn't progression either. Oh no! Now you must rely on your OWN timing and spacing know how, instead of using L canceling and wave dashing to make up for that. I'm a competitive player, but seeing the same old top tier bull**** over and over again was lame. Balance is a good thing. Change and variety are good as well.....
We don't want Brawl to be Melee. I thought this was clear?
Have you tried Heavy Brawl? After you figure out how your character works again, you'll be surprised how much more awesome both you and your opponent can be. It's like you've been given swords to fight with instead of Nerf guns.
Heavy Brawl doesn't give heavy characters a huge disadvantage (the name would suggest that the opposite misconception is true, hehe...I tried to make a funny), but it gives EVERYONE more options. DeDeDe's shff nair is a GODLY approach now, and he can STILL do his jump and hover with d-air or u-air combo (I couldn't even do this in regular mode, but I've gotten the hang of it in Heavy). Bowser can string together combos of 4-5 hits, and he can finish opponents at friggin' 80% now, putting him at Ike status. Ike can kill at around 60% now, if you time him right, it's insane! Ganondorf didn't get much better, but he DID get better because it's now possible to do a two-hit combo very consistently with him. Heavy characters have gotten a boost in this mode, man. If anything, the light characters haven't changed much but the heavy characters feel awesome.
Ive seen the issue of how "competitive" brawl is etc pop up here and there.
A couple of things...
Define competitive.
What does it mean for a game to be competitive and how is it measured?
Is this a qualitative analysis or a quantatative one?
If this is a qualitative measurement, then I respect you opinion.
If this is a quantitative measurement, then I'd like to know how you measure it.
Competitive as in there is depth to the game, as in even after you've played it for a long time there's still things you can learn that keep it relatively fresh. Camping doesn't help this out at all.
I'm not sure if it's qualitative or guantitative...I think it's a bit of both, because I can see for myself, and many other people have, that, once you reach a high enough level of awareness and control with the defensive options in this game, you're at the advantage as a camper. I think a fighting game should reward those that attempt to do something rather than sit there and wait for something to happen to them, don't you?
Also, there's a bunch of empirical evidence on YouTube. Just look up brawl camping, click on the first Brawl video you see of a match, and it shows an entire
tournament where this was an issue. Not fun at all.
Can't be done online, where the vast VAST majority of tournaments will be happening. 'nuuuuff saaaaid.
I used to be heavily entrenched in online competitive gaming, specifically a really old-school mech game called Starsiege. Oh yeah, it was fun. But it wasn't impartial. Disconnects everywhere, lag, accusations flying around. Oh...surrrrre...people still participated because it was fun, but no one ever took the results seriously. Hell, we used to have a ladder but decided to stop updating it because it didn't matter anymore.
The point is...online tournaments are never taken seriously. Why do you think Halo tournament require people to be there live and play? Even the frickin' LAN network they have said up is apparently too slow for them. In a fighting game where timing is everything, how can impartial results be based on a system that, by its very nature, cannot allow impartiality.
Of course, online tournaments will still happen. And they'll still prosper. But no one is going to call you a pro if you win an online tournament.
I read most of the posts in this thread, and I have yet to see anyone make a good reply on why the switch should be done considering it gimps the hell out of two characters (Sonic and Wario). While I know nothing on Wario, taking away sonic's one good b move so that the space animals can regain their power is pure BS.
Overall I think it would be best to try this on the side at a major torunament and see what people think. If tier brackets don't become meleeized after a few games, than go for it.
It turns out Wario is fine.
Sonic can actually still make it back with his neutral B and side+B. His Up+B is now a situational recovery. If you do it on the ground you go a bit higher than you would in mid-air. Also, Sonic no longer has to be a hit-and-run character in Heavy Brawl. He can actually do a lot of cool combos in the air as opposed to being stuck on the ground to best exploit his speed. In other words, he's fast both on the ground
and in the air. My friend who regularly plays Sonic has gotten used to this and is now taking me to
school because I can't tell what he's going to do next. The only way I've been able to beat him has been to force a gimp by knocking him off the stage and hitting him away. Otherwise, he's basically unstoppable.
I'm still against this Heavy Brawl idea. I think we just need to take more time and find ways to counteract floatiness and camping in the NORMAL game. To be honest, the people who are against Heavy Brawl (for the most part) have provided the best arguments.
I've been trying to figure out ways to get around camping for a while, but why do that when we have a mode that basically does that already? I've seen nothing but positive results in this mode, and while regular Brawl started out very positively it has slowly degenerated into a campfest in which no fun can endure.
I've got a cool recommendation that might confuse some people because it uses a little known skill around here called common sense.
If you like Melee, then go play Melee.
There. I said it. There's no need to change the game's system because it's not something you like. Stuff is being discovered with Brawl almost every day and it hasn't even been a month. The game will keep evolving, you don't have to force it into something it's not using a special brawl option.
I like Melee, sure. But I like Brawl better.
And you're right. The game IS evolving. But it's evolving into a campfest. I've seen videogames evolve into campfests, and once people realize it's the thing to do it never goes away. Why do you think I stopped playing Counterstrike a bajillion years ago?
I don't want this to happen to Brawl, specifically Brawl's competitive scene. This mode appears to remedy this problem, regular Brawl only seems to be regressing into a camping mood.
Btw, isn't taking off items and playing only on a few stages sort of forcing the game into a different mode as well? What about playing with stock? Everytime the game starts, it goes into timed mode by default. Maybe we should be holding tournaments in timed mode, because it's what the game is telling us to do.
I agree to an extent. I must confess-I LOVE HEAVY BRAWL. IT makes comboing so much easier and its easy to get into a groove. Then I noticed that Second jumps and even b-up's were totally trashed. Ganon can barely jump as high as the first platform on battlefield, and (just the few I've tested) sonic's b-up barely goes anywhere. Dededee actually gains no height at all in his multiple jumps.....I mean, its just too much. If there was a way to remove second jump killing and still make it that way (not to mention, some b-up's are unchanged while others suffere hugely) I would love heavy brawl. Until someone gets a petition or something and forces nintendo to change the game, we just have to figure out a way to make brawl faster!
Try LIGHT BRAWL! ITs even MORE FUN
Light Brawl is
hilarious.
We know about Sonic's Up+B and Ganon's jumping problem. I don't think they're very big issues, especially considering that my friend is doing better as Sonic in Heavy Brawl and that I'm faring better as Ganondorf in Heavy Brawl as well. We appear to be gimped, but for some crazy reason we're doing better! The only variable we've changed is going from regular Brawl to Heavy Brawl, so I'm assuming that has to be it.
I'm all for experimentation and think that, with enough effort, maybe Heavy Brawl could significantly change the game competitively.
However, the problem will be that it may alienate NEW players. Somebody who might be interested in going to a tournament for the first time, only to find out that the game is played on Heavy could quickly lose interest and give up simply because the reason why is hard to explain to a newer player.
I know, the "alienation issue" was the same one I brought up when I opposed Heavy Brawl a few months ago.
But if we keep going with regular Brawl the way it is going now then there won't be a competitive scene for new players to adapt to. Plus, no matter what, new players will have to adapt in some fashion whenever they're entering
any competitive scene. I thought I was the **** in Yu-Gi-Oh! back in freshman year of high school until I went to a tournament and saw card-draw techniques I've never freakin' seen before. That only motivated me more to try to figure out what they were doing, I did, and eventually I got good enough to the point that someone from Pojo's got me a job doing deck reviews and deck strategy anlalyses. If something's too easy to get in, it's going to be full of people who aren't committed to it anyway, and that seeeeeriously bogs down the competitive scene (UT2004 anyone?)
The post about Pits recovery being bad is BS. I'm serious, I was testing out tons of characters in heavy brawls and Pit is one of the best by far in gaining height. His upB gets him tons of height, better than most actually in heavy brawl. In my opinion, the ones with the worst recovery are Sonic and Wario, but thats only their upB. Their sideB recoveries work fine instead. It's much better than having everyone be able to recover from anything less than a one hit kill off the screen. I mean, with normal Brawl, it's almost like there is no term for recovery needed, since almost anyone can recover perfectly.
Yes, Pit actually still has awesome recovery.
And it's true about the recovery in no Brawl. Anyone can come back from anything, and spiking/meteor smashes are very slow unless they are extremely powerful (like...only R.O.B.'s and Ganondorfs...yes I've survived Falcon's meteor smash, WITHOUT METEOR CANCELING. That's ridiculous, why even put spikes in the game?)
I've played Heavy Brawl. From what I gathered, King Dedede's recovery is terrible. Don't even say it's still good, because it's not. He jumps like he has to crap his pants, and he falls way too fast. Lucas loses most, if not all of his aerial prowess, and don't even get me started on Wario.
Maybe if it was just a little LESS Heavy, it would work a bit better.
It's different, I think in some ways it's better. Originally his Up+B was so slow that you could actually hit him out of it and kill him even easier. Now...I'm scared to get near it.
Lucas has become a
beast, I don't know what you're talking about here. If anything, I think he's improved the most in terms of attacking than anyone else in Heavy Brawl.
People who play Wario have said that Wario is fine. In fact, they're saying he's
better than fine.
I think you just need to get used to the new physics, which takes about half-and-hour to an hour. Then you can really sink your teeth into it.
I can't test it right now, but can King Dedede still chaingrab?
Apparently his chaingrabs are more effective in Heavy Brawl.
