Truth where it hurts for Shiek

I've been a fan of the Smash series since the start. I've been playing online smash since the N64 roms allowed online play, and played consitently in tournaments around New York City. =o By far, Shiek has always been my favorite character. Ever since the introduction of Shiek, even though the mirror matches were quite annoying, the shiek/fox/mario battle would be a spectacle just because of the ground/aerial combat that sometimes, was hard to comprehend the complexity in performance and judgement of movement.

With that said, Shiek has undergone a change that a few are now realizing but's not being capatalized on and it should be said bluntly and straight forward.

Shiek is not an actual character by herself.

How long was it/is it going to take for everyone to figure out this pure fact that Shiek players are not really getting the full potential of the character because that was the purpose of the character design. From all the interviews/reviews/previews, editor designing quotes, producer feedback, notices. Training, playing for yourself, how long was is it going to take to figure out that this game was designed with the greater sense of balance in mind.

Everyone say's Shiek was nerfed. I for one, am glad that Shiek was nerfed. Everyone can admit that the character was not only overpowered, it was ridiclously stupid to just watch the final matches be centered around Mario/Peach/Shiek/Fox and throw in the random falco and other people who try to specialize in the heavy/light characters to throw a random difference. But it's true. You see these top characters all have a huge modification to the play style and Shiek has gotten the biggest of them all.

What's the point here? Point being that everyone's complaining about Shiek's knock out power, but forgetting the fact that Shiek has one of the best knock out powers in the game, it's called DOWN-B and using Zelda's powers. What is wrong with implenting a transformation strategey where both characters are used in conjuction to really smash the living crap out of every thing else.

Has anyone noticed how ironic it's become that Shiek loses knock out power while Zelda gains' top knock out power game.
I've read these forums, everyone is talking on Sheiks' vanish becoming a great KO hit. Um, that's fantastic, but it can be dodged, and easily seen. Try dodging Zelda's bombs, or Zelda's teleport, or Zelda's hits, or throws, which all have some sweet knockback and knock out power. This sense of balance and fair game play is great for the game because now players are forced to implent a different use of the character as a whole, instead of just focusing on one aspect of the playstyle.

I feel in a year, this Shiek complaining will be obselete, by all the players that'd learn the simple fact that they were the first to jump into implenting two play styles on two characters, mesh them together to create a great speed with great KO strategy. Or how about using Zelda's powers to weaken the oppenent fast, and then Shiek to stay in on the field, and using Shiek for knock out. Not hard or impossible, rather simple.

Alot may disagree with me. But I am talking for those specifically that are open minded. That take this information and just accept the transformation benefit's and using Zelda' to her new capabilities that Shiek lacks and vice versa. And then, it'd be ironic, time from now.
When the close minded individual who stuck with Shiek through the time, goes against the person who implented a stragetey from both characters. Id' like to see the winner of that fight.

I am not here to downplay Shiek players, im here to let everyone know, that here's a chance for a new evolution of playstyle that can really outfavor Shiek/Zelda hybrid players. And it's time to take adavantage of that.

I agree. Sheik and Zelda are meant to be used together, which is why Transform even exists. This isn't as obvious as it is with Pokemon Trainer (his Pokemon get fatigued and you have to switch out unless you want to be severely weaked), but the new character designs for Zelda and Sheik do hint at this. Zelda has KO move after KO move. Sheik hardly has any KO moves, but she's extremely fast and capable of causing a large amount of damage in a short amount of time (without getting hit).

If transforming didn't take so long, I would even recommend changing when your opponent gets to a certain percentage or is put in a certain situation where that your other form could take advantage of. The actual move (without loading time) seems to be so fast that you can even alternate strikes between the two forms. I could be wrong about that, though. Fully Charged Needles (Sheik) -> Din's Fire (Zelda) -> Smash Side A (Sheik) -> Lightning Kick (Zelda)... That combo seems kind of pointless, but I've sure that GOOD combos could have been made if the loading time during transformation didn't exist.


EDIT: I take that back. Transform IS fast enough to do something like this. There are several things you want to keep in mind before transforming...

A) How far away the opponent is or will be.
B) How quickly the opponent can get to you.
C) How much damage the opponent will do if he/she does get to you. (This is more based on skill, since all characters have at least one powerful attack they can use here)

Send the opponent flying away, then immediately transform. I recommend starting with Sheik, then transforming to Zelda because she is a knock-out master! Also, Sheik's attacks seem to be perfect for this. They send opponents flying far but DON'T KO well. Immediately after hitting with a good smash attack, you have a perfect opportunity to transform.

Of course, Transforming immediately after respawn or immediately after a kill are perfectly viable options. If this is all you do, though, you're not really using Sheik and Zelda together. (Unless, of course, you switch to a form that's better suited to handle the remaining enemies... Then you're playing smart!) Switching after every death for the sake of switching after every death is nothing more than jumping between two characters after every match. Basically, you would be doing the same thing if you played one stock matches and went Ness -> Lucas -> Ness -> Lucas, and so on. You're using both, but you're not using them together. You're just toggling between them.

So... Don't randomly transform in serious battles. That uses as little skill as button mashing does. Instead, learn the differences between Zelda and Sheik and switch when you're in a situation that one of them handles better. If you get sent sky-high as Zelda, you might consider switching to Sheik. (Who seems to be less awful when characters are right under her...) This is how you have to think if you want to use both forms to their fullest extent.

Oh, and I heard that Transform can be used to dodge some Final Smashes. (Possibly even a Dragoon?) That's another incentive for you to play it smart with transformation.


Anyway... If you can't beat a player with Sheik. try switching to Zelda. If you can't beat a player with Zelda, try switching to Sheik. If you notice that you're better at KO'ing with Zelda but better at dealing damage with Sheik, then do your damage with Sheik and switch to Zelda to deal your final blows. It's as simple as that. Can't find time to transform? Go practice, then. It's possible, and quite easy (though sometimes inconvenient), to transform without getting hit. You don't see Pokemon Trainer players whining about this. =P

I recommend using ONLY Zelda or Sheik for a good number of battles just so you can get acquainted with both. Once you are comfortable with both, try implementing Transform into your fights. You'll start to notice that one of the transformations tends to handle certain characters/situations better than the other transformation. (It's painfully easy to sweet spot Bowser with Zelda's fAir and bAir, for example)


EDIT: Haha! I just did Smash Side A (Sheik) -> Transform -> Din's Fire -> Din's Fire on a Level 9 Ike for a KO. I know that a human would have Air Dodged it, but I'm still amused that Sheik transformed fast enough to allow this.



It's completely possible to get by with either Zelda or Sheik, but they compliment each other so well that I don't know why you would. I can even imagine professional players doing this in a tournament. Transforming leaves you open... if you let it do so! Transform at the right time and the opponent can't so much as scratch you.

Actually Mac I've have seen quite a lot of PK people complaining about how it takes soo long to switch. Well for switching to Zelda from Sheik it takes even longer.

To transform into Zelda it takes about two whole seconds which would give any opponent more then enough time to run up to you and wait with a nice smash attack... Unless as you so skillfully point out you hit them so far away that wouldn't be able to. Then technically I guess you would be safe to transform but by doing so you just gave them a free back into stage pass. That’s assuming you didn’t kill them which if you did would completely destroy the reason why you are even transforming.

The fact is by transforming you are giving them a chance no matter how small to do more damage to you or even kill you. The rewards of switching don't out weight the cost.

If Sheik and Zelda were meant to be used together, they would not have dropped the ball so badly on Transform.

What do I mean by "dropped the ball"?

The Transform time is NOT fixed. It equals the amount of time it takes your Wii to Load the other character from the disk. Don't believe me? Start the transform, and as soon as the character enters the white light, pause the game. You should hear your Wii laboring. Normally, there is well over a second of transformation time remaining at this point. But if you wait until you don't hear Wii noises anymore and then unpause, the transformation will immediately be completed and the other character will be standing there.

This is a HUGE mistake. It means that the you can never rely on having enough time to do your transformation. Unless you're playing with someone who will let you pause the game every time you want to switch back and forth.

Tristan_win said:

Actually Mac I've have seen quite a lot of PK people complaining about how it takes soo long to switch. Well for switching to Zelda from Sheik it takes even longer.

To transform into Zelda it takes about two whole seconds which would give any opponent more then enough time to run up to you and wait with a nice smash attack... Unless as you so skillfully point out you hit them so far away that wouldn't be able to. Then technically I guess you would be safe to transform but by doing so you just gave them a free back into stage pass. That’s assuming you didn’t kill them which if you did would completely destroy the reason why you are even transforming.

The fact is by transforming you are giving them a chance no matter how small to do more damage to you or even kill you. The rewards of switching don't out weight the cost.

Click to expand...

If you time it right, only skilled players will be able to hit you. I'm able to safely transform at will when I fight level 9 computer. I realize that they aren't THAT good, but they're better than your average player.

Transforming from Sheik into Zelda takes longer, I know, but it makes more sense than transforming from Zelda to Sheik. Sheik has insane combo potential, especially with his Neutral A and Side Tilt attacks. You can easily rack a little over 100 damage, distance yourself from the opponent (whether that be by hitting the opponent or running away), then KO with a single blow from Zelda (Up Tilt works wonders if the opponent has about 120%).

Wildfire393 said:

If Sheik and Zelda were meant to be used together, they would not have dropped the ball so badly on Transform.

What do I mean by "dropped the ball"?

The Transform time is NOT fixed. It equals the amount of time it takes your Wii to Load the other character from the disk. Don't believe me? Start the transform, and as soon as the character enters the white light, pause the game. You should hear your Wii laboring. Normally, there is well over a second of transformation time remaining at this point. But if you wait until you don't hear Wii noises anymore and then unpause, the transformation will immediately be completed and the other character will be standing there.

This is a HUGE mistake. It means that the you can never rely on having enough time to do your transformation. Unless you're playing with someone who will let you pause the game every time you want to switch back and forth.

Click to expand...

They really did mess up with that. Actually, that was my only major gripe with the game.

However, it's not as bad as it seems. The delay is bad, but not unbearable. The only time I can imagine you might have problems is if you're going against a good player. You don't randomly switch. You switch when you need your other form to fit the situation. Transforming immediately after respawing or immediately after killing are very safe, so there are no problems there. The only time you might have problems is if you transform in the middle of a battle (Sheik -> Zelda for KO potential, for example). The thing is... You're not supposed to transform when the opponent is close. That's plain dumb. You transform when the opponent has no chance of hitting you.

This isn't too bad if you think ahead. You don't look at someone barely fly off a stage, then start transforming. You think... "Hey! This attack is barely going to knock the person off the stage, but it'll give me enough time to transform IF I start transforming right away" Thus, you hit the person and immediately transform. If you timed it right, you should be quite safe. You started the transformation while the person was flying backward. The person still has to finish going backward, then turn around, charge at you, then hit you.

Similar situations occur when you knock opponents high up or under a stage. You can also transform when YOU get knocked far away.


They made this same exact mistake with Pokemon Trainer. Does that mean he's not supposed to change Pokemon in the middle of a battle? If that's the case, then he's doomed. Pokemon get fatigued after a while, reducing their damage significantly. Unless you switch, you're stuck with a gimped Pokemon.


In casual situations where you aren't fighting demi-god status players, I don't see any problem at all. If you can't find time to transform, that's your fault.

EDIT: In case anyone didn't notice, I was referring to tournament players when I said "demi-god status players". I just wanted to clear that up. It just seemed like a fun phrase to use. ^,^

In situations where you ARE fighting amazing players, then it may or may not be smarter to transform. It depends on how good the player is and what character he has. If you're up against a really good player that uses Dedede, you will most likely have time to transform (after a smash, probably) simply because Dedede's movement speed is so slow.

Again... You have to come back to Pokemon Trainer. He's in a worse situation than Zelda and Sheik are, because he HAS to switch out Pokemon if he doesn't want to have severely weakened attacks. If Pokemon Trainer can change Pokemon in battle, Sheik and Zelda can change in battle.


I haven't fought any spectacular players, so I don't know how practical Transforming is in high level play. However, I fight level 9 computers all the time. As I've said before, level 9 computers aren't really that good, but they're better than your average player. Transforming is at least viable (and highly recommended) if you're playing against players that range from abysmal to above average. It's still workable if you're fighting skilled players, but it's obviously going to be much harder to pull off.


I have to go to piano lessons right now, then I'm going straight to a party. I can't proofread this post at all, nor can I do any tests. I'll respond/cry over silly mistakes when I get back! =)

EDIT: Wow. The last sentence came out completely wrong. That's what happens when you type in a hurry... @,@

Transform takes a long time, which is likely a design flaw, or if they picked up on it, they figured it was fine because it balances Sheik/Zelda out. Think about it this way: if she had her old Transform speed from Melee, she'd probably be a bit broken. Sheik's damage potential is such that she can potentially bring most characters up to 80~ in a single rushdown. With the Zelda buffs, Zelda can kill at around that damage range. With the old Transform speed, Sheik/Zelda is basically one character with insane speed, solid combos, and powerful finishes (kind of like Marth, but I digress). The new speed forces you to make the tradeoff between more difficult damage racking and easier KOs, and more difficult KOs and easy damage racking.

You DO have a very safe Transform if you get them around 120~% with Sheik and knock them off the edge or even straight up. The balancing factor is that you can't switch between the two characters at will; rather, you're required to learn to set up your Transforms.

I just wish they'd just preload both characters and not make it dependent on the loading speed of the Wii. Perhaps some firmware update or something might fix the problem in the future, although it seems unlikely, since it appears to be inherent to the game code and not to the Wii itself.

This same topic was brought up with the release of melee and was quickly shot down when sheiks metagame was fully realized. Now that Brawl came out, it looks as if Sakurai intends for zelda to be what she truly is: a hybrid. i'm glad someone brought this topic up for me being a sheik mainer am really interested in this concept. Hopefully someone can write a faq on the correct situations and when to implement the transformation.

Mac2492 said:

If you time it right, only skilled players will be able to hit you.

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...Wow

Excuse me but do you realize that most people who go to tournaments are skilled?

Also do you realize that this is a completive site where people come on to look for new strategies/tech or for tournaments.

I can't argue with this level of stupid and I'm not coming back to this thread, also if I could I would block you.

edit: After rereading my post I notice it sounds like **** but this might be because my IQ just drop a few points so I wont bother trying to edit it.

Try hitting someone around 100% with Sheik's bair, nair, or uair (given you sweetspot them, not the weak hit) or even up, forward or down smash. How long does it take them to get back? A few seconds. How long does the transformation take? About 2 seconds. By the time they're back, you're ready for a quick KO! Then when you transform back to Sheik, all you're moves are at 100%, not decayed at all.

In theory, as you suggest, that's what the developers wanted us to believe. In Melee, however, it was clear that Sheik was superior in every aspect. Naturally it will take time before progress is made in developing solid strategies for the hybrid theory.

I, for one, still prefer to play solely with Sheik. Her speed opens up a lot of options, and her lack of absolute KO moves isn't intimidating to the better players. I might pick up Zelda to experiment with your ideas though, this could be really cool.

okay... two things i disagree with in this topic...
first: the main arguer towards using zelda uses PT and LVL 9 CPUs as proves...
comeon...
i´m a PT main, and switching isnt an issue with Pokemon trainer... you will be forced to play all characters anyway, you can switch after a kill if you´d like to play one pokemon more than another or one sucks balls against the cahracter you´re fighting
i dont know exactly how good CPUs are in brawl, because i hardly play them (i think i did once) but please... dont use them as an argument that you can wonderfully switch when playing an CPU... you can also just jump out and edgeguard him with sheik... just as easy...

second thing:
YES Zelda is GREAT at killing....
GREAT
really good
but cmon... you people are considering switching to zelda a free kill....
NO WAY
zelda is WAY slower than sheik and has alot more trouble when getting comboed by the opponent... all this does is giving you the risk of being comboed and getting loads of damage...
yes zelda has Fair and Bair as well as utilt,usmas and forwardsmash and also an amazing throw...
but her arials are hard to sweetspot and the uair is easy to dodge... her fsamsh is rather slow and so is her usmash and utilts are rather hard to be implemented into ones game efficiently and her grab range is just hillarious...

i know i´m no pro at Zelda, but i can say i´ve played her for a while (sadly this was right when i got brawl) and i must say, she just isnt a character i want to play and she is diffrent from sheik in every way so it might be hard switching styles so quickly


note: I DID use the transformation rarely in Melee.. for a while i used it as recovery move and sometimes (mainly against jiggs) i used her to kill...
but with the loads of small characters and the even harder to hit Fair and Bair and the higher Shortjump and no Lag-Cancel zelda is no character for me anymore when i can have sheik.

i do not think the damage you would take while trying to kill with a single hit with zelda and the damage you would take edgeguarding and killing with sheik is so much diffrent

the only REAL advantage i see is the decay-reset for the next stock

I just don't know if hybrid would be viable, I know if i tried to switch like that with my friends they would likely hit me right out of it either weak or by a semi charged smash. I suppose it could work sometimes but it just wouldn't be consistent.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

second thing:
YES Zelda is GREAT at killing....
GREAT
really good
but cmon... you people are considering switching to zelda a free kill....
NO WAY

Click to expand...

No kidding, Zelda' is not a free kill character or everyone would play Zelda, it's a different, unique aspect of playing that was the purpose of this topic, not to say that Zelda' is a KO machine.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

zelda is WAY slower than sheik and has alot more trouble when getting comboed by the opponent... all this does is giving you the risk of being comboed and getting loads of damage...

Click to expand...

What are you trying to say by pointing this out? The strategy is useless because of the risk of a slower character. Personally, I feel that's an excuse #1, #2- Of course Zelda' is slower, imagine if Zelda was just as fast as Sheik and could come back just as easily as Sheik. It's a balance, practice between the two and you can get a great advantage over a person just using one.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

note: I DID use the transformation rarely in Melee.. for a while i used it as recovery move and sometimes (mainly against jiggs) i used her to kill...
but with the loads of small characters and the even harder to hit Fair and Bair and the higher Shortjump and no Lag-Cancel zelda is no character for me anymore when i can have sheik.

Click to expand...

To compare Melee circumstances to brawl is ridiclous, Zelda wasn't as strong and as agile then to now. She's gotten huge buffs, and which make's her quite the challenge even as a solo character, more now then ever. And besides that, talking about an attack Zelda makes not landing on a character, has nothing to do with Zelda per-say, it has to to do with the strategy you used against your oppenent. Practice is my point.


And everyone that talks about the transformation taking to long for there liking, if the transformation took half a second, the combination would be quite unfair, plus you have the ability to dodge smashes by transforming on it's on. Mindgames, timing, spacing, all this comes into play when you think about a hybrid playstyle. Im not hyping Zelda as the be-all and end-all for an answer or the ultimate KO queen, but rather, a new and unique playstyle, that tournament wise (and i've been to plenty) I never saw. Because it was never as balanaced as the game is now.

with the second thing you quoted i was talking about the disadvantage zelda gives you...
ofcourse zelda has a advantage in killing compared to Sheik
but transforming can also result in a huge loss if your enemy knows how to pressure you, you wont be able to kill him quickly before taking alot of damage or even being killed of top if you´re unlucky (not that its much diffrent with sheik )

second quote had nothing to do with comparing with melee...
i was just saying that i am no enemy of using zelda and sheik together, i was just trying to say that i still dont find it very profitable
and it seems to me alot of characters are smalle and therefor harder to hit with aerials, which are zeldas main kill moves and a missed "late Fair" WILL leave you open for a grab or some kind of punish.


edit:
i´m not saying "forget the idea, its just stupid" i´m only saying i do not think its really worth of learning to play a completely diffrent character because of this if you dont want to

Zelda has a lot of moves that kill, not just FAir. By the time you've knocked them far enough away to Transform to Zelda safely, they should have taken enough damage that you should be able to kill them with just about everything. UTilt, USmash, UAir, FAir, DSmash, and Din's Fire all come to mind.

Regardless, it's no accident that my second is Zelda. That means I can switch between my main and my second mid-match, which can make for some pretty dangerous mindgames.

Tristan_win said:

...Wow

Excuse me but do you realize that most people who go to tournaments are skilled?

Click to expand...

I already stated that Transforming is viable against "abysmal" players to "above average" players at the very least, and that it may not be as useful against skilled players.

I didn't say "use this in tournaments because it'll make you win". I said that it works well in casual play and it MIGHT work well in tournaments.

Tristan_win said:

Also do you realize that this is a completive site where people come on to look for new strategies/tech or for tournaments.

Click to expand...

If this is the case, then it might do people some good to actually try this *new strategy*. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. There's no harm done. The strategy is at least viable in casual play, so casual players can definitely get something out of this.

There's no reason to get stuck in the mindset that you have to use a single transformation when your character has two or three. Yes, it takes two or three seconds to transform. Perhaps this is too long when you're up against the best players. Oh well! At the very least, it still works against players about as skilled as a level 9 computer. (Maybe more skilled, even...) That's a very large number of players, so I don't see any reason to throw the idea out the window even if it doesn't work in tournaments (and it might even work there too).

Also, I'm not quite sure if that "or" was supposed to be in the sentence so I can't quite interpret the sentence properly.

Tristan_win said:

I can't argue with this level of stupid and I'm not coming back to this thread, also if I could I would block you.

Click to expand...

Thanks?

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

okay... two things i disagree with in this topic...
first: the main arguer towards using zelda uses PT and LVL 9 CPUs as proves...
comeon...
i dont know exactly how good CPUs are in brawl, because i hardly play them (i think i did once) but please... dont use them as an argument that you can wonderfully switch when playing an CPU... you can also just jump out and edgeguard him with sheik... just as easy...

Click to expand...

You really shouldn't argue about things you have no knowledge of.

If you don't know how good CPUs are in Brawl, how can you say that I am wrong in using them to prove a point? Also, I already stated that level 9 CPUs are good, but not great. However, they would probably be considered "above average" if they were human players. This is why I said that transforming is at least viable against "above average" players. I never said it was viable against the best players, even though it might be. Still, I am unfamiliar with high level play, so I cannot properly comment on it.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

second thing:
YES Zelda is GREAT at killing....
GREAT
really good
but cmon... you people are considering switching to zelda a free kill....
NO WAY
zelda is WAY slower than sheik and has alot more trouble when getting comboed by the opponent... all this does is giving you the risk of being comboed and getting loads of damage...
yes zelda has Fair and Bair as well as utilt,usmas and forwardsmash and also an amazing throw...
but her arials are hard to sweetspot and the uair is easy to dodge... her fsamsh is rather slow and so is her usmash and utilts are rather hard to be implemented into ones game efficiently and her grab range is just hillarious...

Click to expand...

If you know how to use Zelda, she DOES essentially give you a free kill when your opponent is at a high percentage.

Her KO moves include...
Note: Moves were tested from the center of Final Destination

UTilt (120%)
FTilt (140%)
Dash Attack (150%... You must be right beside the person... Sends the opponent STRAIGHT UP...)
USmash (130% uncharged, 80% fully charged)
DSmash (100% fully charged)
FSmash (120% uncharged, 90% fully charged)
FAir (90%)
BAir (75%)
UAir (90%)

If you can't hit the opponent with any of these moves, the problem is with you and not Zelda. =P

Oh, and DAir spikes if you can pull it off. NAir can KO at relatively high percentages (200%+?). Din's Fire can kill at any percentage if your opponent doesn't dodge it, and it can KO opponents standing on the ground if you let it fly far enough (increases damage, explosion radius, and knockback).

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

i know i´m no pro at Zelda, but i can say i´ve played her for a while (sadly this was right when i got brawl) and i must say, she just isnt a character i want to play and she is diffrent from sheik in every way so it might be hard switching styles so quickly

Click to expand...

This isn't really a problem with the character. It's just a matter of personal taste.

If you really don't want to use Zelda, that's fine.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

i do not think the damage you would take while trying to kill with a single hit with zelda and the damage you would take edgeguarding and killing with sheik is so much diffrent

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how much damage you take edge-guarding with Sheik, but I can take 0% damage if I pull off the transformation combo properly.

Once the opponent is at 160% or so, almost all of Zelda's attacks become KO moves. Winning simply becomes a matter of choosing the attack that will HIT. (Once you hit, you're almost guaranteed a kill.)

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

with the second thing you quoted i was talking about the disadvantage zelda gives you...
ofcourse zelda has a advantage in killing compared to Sheik
but transforming can also result in a huge loss if your enemy knows how to pressure you, you wont be able to kill him quickly before taking alot of damage or even being killed of top if you´re unlucky (not that its much diffrent with sheik )

Click to expand...

You lost me there. >,>

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

second quote had nothing to do with comparing with melee...
i was just saying that i am no enemy of using zelda and sheik together, i was just trying to say that i still dont find it very profitable
and it seems to me alot of characters are smalle and therefor harder to hit with aerials, which are zeldas main kill moves and a missed "late Fair" WILL leave you open for a grab or some kind of punish.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you heard that Zelda's aerial moves are her main KO moves. I've been finding her tilts EXTREMELY effective. UTilt KOs at 120% and it's very easy to hit with. FTilt KOs at 140% and it's even easier to hit with.

Of course, I do use her air attacks and smash attacks. I just tend to use them when the opponent has less damage. Once the opponent gets into the 100% range, I find the tilts to be much easier to kill with.

Zelda sucks. Uair is air-dodged 100% of the time, lightning kicks have no priority and need to be really close to sweetspot. Miss sweetspot = punished b/c sourspot has 0 stun.

Her smashes and downtilt are pretty good, but I don't think it's worth switching for. Especially because zelda sucks so bad in the air.

Also, din's fire was pretty sweet right after the game came out and people didn't know you could air-dodge every single one. Now it's pretty weak.

Stay sheik to win.
----
About the level 9 computers, does it really matter whether you're sheik or zelda if playing against someone who can't beat the cpu?

Ankoku said:

LV9 CPUs are not good. They're better than Melee CPUs in some ways, but they're still not good.

Click to expand...

I agree, but the fact that I can transform at will when fighting them is promising. This means that, at the very least, you can safely transform while fighting level 9 CPUs and humans of around the same skill level.

Now we just have to work our way up and see how good the players have to get before we lose this handy option.



On a side note, Sheik -> Zelda is going faster than Zelda -> Sheik. I was wrong when I said that Sheik -> Zelda was slower. (Or according to my latest tests, I am)

Ankoku said:

Humans of the same skill level? As a LV9 CPU? While I'm sure you'll meet one or two of those in a bracket, there's absolutely nothing short of SDing three times that won't win you the game against those people >_>

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I'm not talking about tournaments. I already said that I'm not familiar with them. >,<!


I don't know about everyone else, but I come here because I am fascinated by wealth of information that is available. Standard tournament play doesn't interest me much. I much prefer playing on random stages with all items enabled, though. It keeps things interesting, and it forces you to adapt quickly.

I agree with everyone that says, that they'll stay Sheik only cause that's there preference and what there comfortable with. My opinion, the character has been terribly weakened to a point where transformation with the strategy use of spacing, mindgames, timing, prediction can all factor in a great strategy that few are taking advantage of.

What I disagree with is everyone that's said that Zelda' is not worth the effort and a waste of time. To say this, it's hard not to come back with the ignorance is bliss quote, or just plain 'your igornant as ****.'

And I stick to my personal opinion, a very skilled, open minded player, that takes advantage of both sides of the spectrum with both characters. Will have an overwhelming edge over a person who just uses one. There's no need or reason to challenge this theory with opinion, cause you don't have to play the game to figure out in a commen sense fashion that 2 is greater than 1.

ftilt is not easy to hit with mac....
its way to slow
i agree with utilt beeing amazing, but it hasn´t got much range to the side and it takes ages to reach behind you.
it can be used when the oponent is above you though.

i´ll stop arguing because as already stated ppl. will do it if they want or tehy wont do it.
it will show with time how effective other characters are AGAINST zelda, and if zelda looses against fast characters badly, you will only loose to them if you switch

Zelda can kill at low %s, but it's really hard to land that deathblow. While trying to land that deathblow, you'll often take *a lot* of damage (or end up getting killed), because zelda's missed killblows are VERY punishable. In a lot of situations, it won't be worth it. Also add the fact that zelda is terrible against short characters, and the two best chars in the game are *******.

Also, please stop bringing up level 9 computers. PEOPLE LEARN, COMPUTERS DON'T. Your idiot of a friend will, at some point, figure out that he just has to stand by you while charging a smash and let loose when the transform's invincibility frames end.

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

ftilt is not easy to hit with mac....
its way to slow
i agree with utilt beeing amazing, but it hasn´t got much range to the side and it takes ages to reach behind you.
it can be used when the oponent is above you though.

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I don't have much trouble hitting with FTilt, but I still use UTilt more often simply because it kills at a lower percentage.

(Not arguing, just commenting...)

Yomi-no-Kuni said:

it will show with time how effective other characters are AGAINST zelda, and if zelda looses against fast characters badly, you will only loose to them if you switch

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That's true, but it may also turn out that Zelda is amazing against fast characters. In that case, you would definitely want to switch.

bobknob said:

Zelda can kill at low %s, but it's really hard to land that deathblow. While trying to land that deathblow, you'll often take *a lot* of damage (or end up getting killed), because zelda's missed killblows are VERY punishable. In a lot of situations, it won't be worth it. Also add the fact that zelda is terrible against short characters, and the two best chars in the game are *******.

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By "that deathblow", you mean any one of six moves that are quite easy to hit with (and around four that aren't)? xP

My main point is that Zelda has so many KO moves that it's hard not to find a move that fits the situation. If you can't find one that seals the deal, you're either doing something wrong or fighting someone abnormally good.

bobknob said:

Also, please stop bringing up level 9 computers. PEOPLE LEARN, COMPUTERS DON'T. Your idiot of a friend will, at some point, figure out that he just has to stand by you while charging a smash and let loose when the transform's invincibility frames end.

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My idiot friend (who doesn't exist, but must be imagined for the sake of example) won't get a chance to stand by me while charging a smash attack because I won't transform when he's near me.

Again, you're supposed to transform when your opponent has no chance of hitting you (at least not with a strong attack). Perhaps a Link player could hit you with an arrow from afar, but I'd say one hit from an arrow is a fair trade for a huge array of KO moves.



If you (not referring to anyone specifically) really don't want to switch between Zelda and Sheik, then don't do it. If you want to have the challenge of mastering two movesets in return for excellent combo ability + speed AND excellent KO ability, try going hybrid. You definitely won't regret it in casual situations. I don't know how it'll work out in tournament play, but it does seem that there are ways to transform (at will) without any possibility of getting hit (thus eliminating the main problem of transformation). I could be wrong about that, since I haven't fought any people who are outstanding at recovering quickly.

Has anyone considered this:
The bair and nair are the new fair? The bair/nair seem to KO at the same percentages that the fair did in Melee, but the only problem is diminishing attacks. The first time you use an attack, the knockback drops sharply, then less so, etc. on a curve like that. So, if you use your fair (maybe nair too) as your primary aerial, saving the bair, nair and uair until you know they will KO, Sheik will find no problems KO'ing. Same with the up/down-smashes...except the down-smash is hugely important, it's hard to not spam it.

all i have to say is **** zelda to hell and back....

Sheik overall has been nerferd, but omg i still love playing with her... now i dont main sheik but i do have a killer one and know alot about her. Me personally think sheik is perfect... downB in my opinion may be her worst attack but hey thats just my opinion. Her vanish is not only a good killing attack (hence my patrognage of the upB offensively! slogan) but it is amazing for the mindgames, and i;m talking to all the people that know how to do the vanish guard. Me personally i feel that she doesn't NEED to be implemented with zelda but thats how they turned out. Build up damage with sheik, and finish them off with Zelda, and on that note i also believe that Sheik and zelda are 2 completely different charachters. On that note dinner is ready and i;m hungry,

And i HOPE of supporting my "authority" by winning some tourneys here and there... .but yeah sheik, although nerfed, in my opinion was changed for the best and is still a STAND ALONE charachter

I did some tests just now. I went into training mode and set the CPU's damage to 100%, then had my brother control the CPU. I transformed into Sheik, used USmash or DSmash (charged about half way for the most part), then immediately transformed. He couldn't touch me at all, regardless of what character he used. He took full advantage of directional influence and projectiles. We did this test with Olimar, Samus, Ness, Toon Link. He was only able to hit me when I messed up. (Transformed when I didn't hit him far enough...)

Granted, my brother isn't very good. Still, I can't imagine anyone being able to pull off a powerful counterattack (in response to the transformation, that is) after being launched that far.

Can you guys please try doing similar tests with GOOD players? My brother isn't the best test subject and although I can't imagine anyone pulling off a powerful attack while I'm stuck transforming, I can't make any conclusions unless I can see how skilled players fare.

Note: Tested in Final Destination, started at the center of the stage.
Other: Samus' fully charged shot turned out to be more dangerous for him than it was for me. Immediately after transforming, I used Nayru's Love and reflected it back at him. I had time to spare (after transforming) when I used USmash instead of DSmash. I could have used Din's Fire or ran under him in preparation for a UTilt or USmash. =P


With this experiment, I am simply trying to prove that it is possible to safely transform in the middle of a battle (without invincibility) if you start transforming at the right time. I think my experiment is more than sufficient to prove whether or not it is. The test subject already knows that I am going to hit him with a certain attack and immediately transform after that. If he can't take advantage of my transformation delay even with this knowledge, I'd say it's virtually impossible for him to do it when he doesn't.

Note my wording, though... The experiment should be enough to decide whether transforming is too slow or not, but my results aren't enough. My test subject wasn't skilled enough. That's why I need someone to test this against a skilled player.

EDIT: I just realized that character weight will also make a difference.

Also, saying "but you know that he's going to fly a certain way after you attack him and that's why you know you can safely transform!" is pointless. You're supposed to know which way your attack is going to send the opponent anyway.

JonBeBonanza said:

all i have to say is **** zelda to hell and back....

Sheik overall has been nerferd, but omg i still love playing with her... now i dont main sheik but i do have a killer one and know alot about her. Me personally think sheik is perfect... downB in my opinion may be her worst attack but hey thats just my opinion. Her vanish is not only a good killing attack (hence my patrognage of the upB offensively! slogan) but it is amazing for the mindgames, and i;m talking to all the people that know how to do the vanish guard. Me personally i feel that she doesn't NEED to be implemented with zelda but thats how they turned out. Build up damage with sheik, and finish them off with Zelda, and on that note i also believe that Sheik and zelda are 2 completely different charachters. On that note dinner is ready and i;m hungry,

And i HOPE of supporting my "authority" by winning some tourneys here and there... .but yeah sheik, although nerfed, in my opinion was changed for the best and is still a STAND ALONE charachter

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I'd say you have some authority if you actually use Zelda and are familiar with her. Otherwise, you're just complimenting the character you use and bashing one that you don't.

i'm actually practicing being a both zelda and sheik player. sheik can rack up damage fast on some people and zelda can KO easily. i'm mostly trying to find my times on when i should switch between them. the best benefit of using both i think is the damage reset or whatever you call it even though many more benefits may arise

Oh my goodness, did someone say that we as people's opinion make no difference to speak unless we had some authority, and by authority, meaning backing up an opinionated strategy in a tournament. Oh goodness, let me run to nintendo world right now and earn me some 'authority' as quick as possible.

But on the other hand, your right. And when I do attend, ill bring my sheik/zelda game, and show not by winning, cause to me, winning isn't the point. But that' the strategy is as competetive as any other.

And also, commenting on Sheik being a stand alone character. Sheik can defeinitely hold her own on the field. The quote was to bring perspective to the point that there is more then one way at looking at a character that has the ability to transform. But only the future will tell, which prevails, what stick, what doesn't.

Ankoku said:

I'm not saying you shouldn't use both Sheik and Zelda, I'm saying that making claims like "playing both Sheik and Zelda and transforming a lot will give you a way better game than not" will actually need some supporting evidence to back it up.

Honestly, I just think that too many people are used to KOing at sub-100%'s without having to edgeguard.

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Well, RyokoYaksa has done pretty well with that strategy in tournaments, hasn't he?

Some characters are used to KO'ing at 80 because some characters in the game still can, unlike Sheik's average KO'ing potential.

*Yes, I'm looking at the cheap-*** Ike and D3 fsmash*

Yes. Zelda is a bad character because you don't know how to use her. You will never get good with her ever, because the highly researched, rock solid, non-existent tier listings and the incredibly deep experience we've had with this games not even months old are written in stone and it shows that she is bad. Everyone talking about how Zelda is much more solid now is also a total liar. They were all just lying because they were secretly hoping that you'd believe them and even try out a horrible character. Fortunately you saw through all this. Because you can't achieve results with Zelda, that means that no one ever will, in any way shape or form. Good for you for spotting the unchangeable, unmovable truth.

And this will not change.

Ever.

So don't even think about trying something new.

Ever.

^ Heh.

Ankoku said:

I'm not saying you shouldn't use both Sheik and Zelda, I'm saying that making claims like "playing both Sheik and Zelda and transforming a lot will give you a way better game than not" will actually need some supporting evidence to back it up.

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Our main argument is that Zelda and Sheik were designed to be used together and it would be smarter to take advantage of this rather than ignore it and find workarounds.

If you take the time to master both characters, you will necessarily become much more versatile. One character is fast and good at combos, while the other is moderately slow but powerful. If you use both, you will be able to handle more situations with ease. How can you argue against that? The only (reasonable) counter-argument I've seen is "It takes too long to transform". If people do my experiment with skilled players, we'll be able to see whether this statement holds up or not. I have already hypothesized that it doesn't take too long to transform. You simply have to transform at the right time. So... What other arguments are there? Zelda is undeniably good at knocking opponents out. Sheik is undeniably fast and good at combos. Unless a new glitch or technique makes one of these characters useless, I don't see how mastering both characters won't be beneficial for you.

Any statements like "it takes too much time" or "it's too hard to master two characters" simply mean "I'm lazy".

If you don't want to use both forms, that's fine. Still, it's undeniable that certain characters are better suited to handle certain situations. Sheik is faster and better at combos. Zelda is slower but better at sending the opponent flying. Not only do you have two characters to switch between, but you have two completely different characters to switch between. If you want to KO at high percentages by edge-guarding with Sheik, that's FINE. If you want to take advantage of Zelda's ridiculous KO potential AND Sheik's powerful combos, I'd say that's even better. How can you just pick one and say that you're taking full advantage of the character?



If I seem repetitive, that's because I am being repetitive. I am repeating statements that I previously stated. In all seriousness, though, I am being repetitive because the statements I am repeating are the main points that people seem to be ignoring.

This isn't some "UBER TECHNIQUE THAT KILLS EVERYTHING EASILY". This is a strategy that will make you better suited to handle different situations. In what way will it help you? Well... Sheik is faster and good at combos. Zelda is slower but good at sending opponents flying. (There I go again.) Obviously, I'm implying that you should use Sheik if you need speed and Zelda if you need power (this is almost over-generalized, but I hope you get my point). We're not just saying, "switch because it'll get you kills". We're saying , "switch, because each form is better suited to get you kills in a certain situation".

Want an "application"? New Pork City. If you want to knock your opponent across the map in an attempt to get a KO, be my guest. I'll just get the opponent to 120% with Sheik's combos, switch to Zelda, then use UTilt or USmash. Problem solved. This won't work every time, but it's much easier than knocking the opponent off the side and edge-guarding if you ask me. (Sheik's USmash is less reliable than Zelda's UTilt because it sends the opponents sideways if your opponent is too far to your side)

Summary: Both Sheik and Zelda excel in different situations. Why not switch to one that's more suited to handle a certain situation?

Also, it's not hard to get a knock-out hit with Zelda. Perhaps its hard for you because you don't use Zelda.


Random: Sheik was just added to Smash Bros. DOJO and they recommended using transform to dodge final smashes. Sure, the community discovered this first, but I'm surprised they even suggested such an "advanced" technique on the site.

Didn't really like Zelda in Melee but I do play around with her brawl version. She is very powerful.

Wich make me think you're right.

Mac2492 said:

I'd say you have some authority if you actually use Zelda and are familiar with her. Otherwise, you're just complimenting the character you use and bashing one that you don't.

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see thats the thing, i do play with zelda, and i am familiar with her moves. I just dont play her the way she was intended to be play.... hence the "rack em up and kill em way"....

btw i dont like zelda, and sheik is a ninja so yea....


srry i;m just typing cause i have fingers... and stalling cause i;m gonna go see superhero movie ..... WOO HOO