Castle Siege isn't "borderline" neutral... it IS neutral.

ALuke9 · Mar 24, 2008

With all this discussion on banned stages and whatnot, I was surprised to see Castle Siege on the Counterpick list so often. It's easily one of the game's most balanced and varied stages, and it would be a waste not to include it on the starting rotation of stages. Here's my reasoning:

There are generally only three issues that come up for why the stage should be banned. The first is the admittedly frustrating corner ledges on the castle rooftops. This gives an obvious disadvantage to certain characters like DK and Link who can get stuck. However, this is also the case on Final Destination, which is also neutral. There's no need to hold the stage to a double-standard because it doesn't have history.

The next reason regards the second phase's walk-off edges. Before we ban this stage for this reason, remember that prematurely banning stages is a bad thing! If walk-off stages PROVE to be a problem in future tournaments, THEN they can be banned. Until then, it will only serve to hurt the meta-game.

The final reason is that the transformation phases can "negatively affect a player's strategy." This is completely untrue, for the simple reason that there's a warning rumble before the stage changes, and during that transition it couldn't be any more neutral: completely flat, but without enough time to even bring up "walking-off" tactics.

Castle Siege is, in my mind, being completely misrepresented. It's definitely NOT a counterpick, and is hardly debatable for neutrality. Unless I'm missing some key arguments, this stage needs to go on the neutral list pronto.

...Of course, feel free to argue. This stage could use some good discussion.

Monk/Honkey/Banana · Mar 24, 2008

I agree Castle Siege isn't that bad however it's stupid things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYdDu5B7_0 (watch the ending)

that get stages banned...I understand the whole "well that's not much worse than Battlefield in Melee" but here's the thing...I don't want to die simply cause I was standing at the wrong place at the wrong time

ALuke9 · Mar 24, 2008

Monk/Honkey/Banana said:
I agree Castle Siege isn't that bad however it's stupid things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYdDu5B7_0 (watch the ending)

that get stages banned...I understand the whole "well that's not much worse than Battlefield in Melee" but here's the thing...I don't want to die simply cause I was standing at the wrong place at the wrong time

Thanks for the comment. Looking at the vid shows that it's not the stage's fault, but instead the player's: he showed a lack of knowledge about the stage's layout, making it his fault alone for the death. This "I didn't know!" argument can be made for virtually any stage, including the undisputed neutral Yoshi's Island stage.

To conclude, needing knowledge of a stage does not constitute demoting its status.

Eten · Mar 24, 2008

Then don't stand at the wrong place at the wrong time. That is no different than somebody grabbing and holding onto somebody just before the laser comes on the Halberd course.

TechnoMonster · Mar 24, 2008

Halberd would be an amazing neutral stage if it weren't for the stupid laser and cannonballs. I completely agree about this stage being neutral, though the second phase does encourage camping.

ALuke9 · Mar 24, 2008

TechnoMonster said:
Halberd would be an amazing neutral stage if it weren't for the stupid laser and cannonballs. I completely agree about this stage being neutral, though the second phase does encourage camping.

There's a Halberd discussion thread a few topics there; if you don't mind, keep those ideas there.

Although, for the record, I do believe both will be neutral.

Monk/Honkey/Banana · Mar 24, 2008

ALuke9 said:
Thanks for the comment. Looking at the vid shows that it's not the stage's fault, but instead the player's: he showed a lack of knowledge about the stage's layout, making it his fault alone for the death. This "I didn't know!" argument can be made for virtually any stage, including the undisputed neutral Yoshi's Island stage.

To conclude, needing knowledge of a stage does not constitute demoting its status.

this situation isn't any different than the counterpick stages in melee. Brinstar is a neutral stage...with the exception of the lava. according to you Brinstar should have been Neutral I mean you know when the lava is rising you should know where it rises to each time. The only reason levels get placed in counterpick instead of neutral is because of silly little character advantages
or disadvantages.

Eten said:
Then don't stand at the wrong place at the wrong time. That is no different than somebody grabbing and holding onto somebody just before the laser comes on the Halberd course.

ok I'll 0-death you 3 times with DeDeDe Chain Grab "Hey that was gay" "Oh it's you're fault you shouldn't have got grabbed" it's not much different.

I enjoy Castle Siege I think it's a good level but there's stupid little things like level changes that make levels less "neutral"(Counterpicks are only there cause people whine too much)

ALuke9 · Mar 24, 2008

"this situation isn't any different than the counterpick stages in melee. Brinstar is a neutral stage...with the exception of the lava. according to you Brinstar should have been Neutral I mean you know when the lava is rising you should know where it rises to each time. The only reason levels get placed in counterpick instead of neutral is because of silly little character advantages
or disadvantages."

Ah, but there's a BIG difference here. In the case of Brinstar, while you do know when the lava will rise, characters with better jumps have an advantage, correct? In Castle Siege, all characters are equal. So in Brinstar, even if both players have the same knowledge about the stage, one will still be at an advantage. This is not the case in Castle Siege.

Monk/Honkey/Banana · Mar 24, 2008

True but, it all goes back to the fact that people aren't happy unless things go their way. You have a valid point but as long as people ***** and complain about stupid little things it's not going to change. If the majority find a teeny tiny thing that is slightly unfair there is going to discussion on whether it will be counterpick/banned/neutral

MysticKenji · Mar 24, 2008

Reason 1 has never been mentioned at all.
FYI.

ALuke9 · Mar 24, 2008

MysticKenji said:
Reason 1 has never been mentioned at all.
FYI.

It has on GameFAQs. A lot.

But then again...

zeionut · Mar 24, 2008

gamefaqs doesnt count

Grmo · Mar 24, 2008

Monk/Honkey/Banana said:
I agree Castle Siege isn't that bad however it's stupid things like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPYdDu5B7_0 (watch the ending)

that get stages banned...I understand the whole "well that's not much worse than Battlefield in Melee" but here's the thing...I don't want to die simply cause I was standing at the wrong place at the wrong time

I'd be more concerned about playing a game where you can get away with that kind of camping.

Anyway, no, you're wrong. That was just Hylian making good use of the stage change. No reason to ban a stage.

ALuke9 · Mar 25, 2008

So... any other arguments, or can we close the book on this issue?

Cervial · Mar 25, 2008

Do the statues not hinder projectiles?

If that doesn't help make a stage counterpick then why is Luigi's mansion a counterpick?

:034: · Mar 25, 2008

Final Destination does have the corner problem now, but it's consistent at least. If you get caught under it, it has nothing to do with the stage, but with your own incompetence/character choice (looking at you Link). Castle Siege changes throughout and it's very hard to tell where your character will end up.

Second, the statues hindering projectiles doesn't matter as much. This is good as a spammer counter and the statues can be destroyed anyway (or if your name is Pit; go over them and bend the arrows). The walk-off edges do serve a problem right now: chaingrabbing? Sure, you won't be grabbed all over the stage like what waveshining did in Melee, but if you pass the statue then grab... You're awfully close to a loss of your stock.

Third, when Castle Siege changes for the third time... Again, you can get stuck under the platform. Not as prominent as the first part of the stage, but it still happens.

All these things aren't as bad as Frigate Orpheon - that stage can really kill at times but at least have clear 'safe spots' that are easy to remember. The change in Castle Siege does not. The changes can also (rarely) disrupt gameplay. Imagine you're playing as Ganon (Ha! I'm funny) and you want to get your fair off but the change makes you land immediatly - giving you that infamous landing lag. This means your at first unwary opponent can now pretty much give a free hit. Doesn't happen often, but it CAN happen without avoiding it. I have never heard the rumbling myself, only after going back to the stage after reading it here did I notice it. If it was a sight warning - it'd be alright.

That said, I really like Castle Siege. One of my favorite stages, actually. If you're playing for money, though, these things can hinder you in your play, and therefore should be put in counterpick.

Vro · Mar 25, 2008

I've managed with Dedede to chain throw Snake, during a transition, off the stage into the lowest right corner of the 1st part of Castle Seige. And I managed to make it back. Fair?

the melon!!!!! · Mar 25, 2008

Cervial said:
Do the statues not hinder projectiles?

If that doesn't help make a stage counterpick then why is Luigi's mansion a counterpick?

Do you not recall the Hyrule Pit Of Doom effect of the ceilings in the first floor? Otherwise, yeah it would've been on neutral. That and it has some pretty good music.

I like Castle Siege as a neutral stage because even if there are some things questionable, they don't usually make a big difference anyway unless you are a complete moron (I'm sorry if that was offensive, but it is true). This stage would actually be really good for a neutral stage. Besides, we need at least 6 or 7 neutral. My crew has Final D, Battlefield, Smashville, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Yoshi's Island (new) on the neutral list at the moment, and we are thinking about also adding Frigate Orpheon. Back to the point, keep CS on neutral, since there is no plausible reason for dropping it, unlike Hanenbow.

colored blind · Mar 25, 2008

Counterpick, completely.

Walkoff stages make it easy for Dedede to chaingrab a win, and the statues provide hindrances with projectiles. Don't give me that 'you can escape Dedede's chaingrab' or 'you can destroy the statues' excuses; Dedede's chaingrab is a pain to escape, if you can, and the statues block any projectiles unless you WORK at destroying them. Both of these characteristics give certain characters noticeable advantages are disadvantages, and unless I'm wrong, that is the very definition of a counterpick.

Banjodorf · Mar 25, 2008

ALuke9 said:
There's a Halberd discussion thread a few topics there; if you don't mind, keep those ideas there.

Although, for the record, I do believe both will be neutral.

Agreed. There's really npo good reason at this point to make them CP. Halberd WILL be neutral, the three hazards are completely avoidable if youre a smart person, but learn more in the halberd discussion.

Besides, both stages look too great to make CP, because if theyre made CP, noone will pick them, because theres no real advantage gained for one character playing on either of them.

Neutral!

Neutral!

ComradeSAL · Mar 25, 2008

Cervial said:
Do the statues not hinder projectiles?

If that doesn't help make a stage counterpick then why is Luigi's mansion a counterpick?

Not only that but ROB's laser goes through the statues while just about every other projectile doesn't. This seems like a clear reason for at least counterpick.

okiyama · Mar 25, 2008

Saying that it's the player's fault is like saying that Flat zone is the players fault because they camp at the side and then back throw.

Does that change the fact that it's banned? No.

Banned stages are about what the players can and will do to win, if you get a free kill for doing something simple like grabbing then having the stage kill them. It gets banned/counterpicked.

Neutral stages are in most cases stages where nothing changes and nothing is too gimpy or whatever.

colored blind · Mar 25, 2008

Agreed. There's really npo good reason at this point to make them CP. Halberd WILL be neutral, the three hazards are completely avoidable if youre a smart person, but learn more in the halberd discussion.

Besides, both stages look too great to make CP, because if theyre made CP, noone will pick them, because theres no real advantage gained for one character playing on either of them.

Before telling us to go read another topic, read this one. No one campaigning for neutrality has addressed the issue that the walkoff presents when playing as Dedede, and the only response to the statues blocking projectiles has been, "knock them down", despite the fact that for the time the statue is up, it still blocks, and a considerable amount of attention must be paid to them to destroy them unless it's collateral damage in a melee fight, in which case, the stature has served it's purpose. Castle Siege gives great advantages to specifically Dedede, with every transition and inside the castle being walkoffs, and the statues inside the castle severely limit the effectiveness of characters who use projectiles extensively. Of course people will pick it as a CP, especially with these obvious exploits.

Look at the neutral stages. What do they consist of? A flat platform, with maybe one to three passable platforms, and gives no foreseeable advantage to any character. Does Castle Siege fit this idea? No. Especially since it's a walkoff. It's a fine CP, but I don't see it as a good neutral.

Froth · Mar 25, 2008

You should know what to look out for in everystage.
Use projectiles to counter people camping at the side and then back throw.
Just don't get near them!

ALuke9 · Mar 25, 2008

And I emphasize for colored blind: prematurely banning stages for relatively new techniques only serves to hurt the meta game.

Froth · Mar 25, 2008

ALuke9 said:
And I emphasize for colored blind: prematurely banning stages for relatively new techniques only serves to hurt the meta game.

Exactly. Agreed.

shadydentist · Mar 26, 2008

Counterpick != banning.

I feel like castle siege isn't neutral. The largest reason is that the transitions can be very disruptive, while on other stages like Delfino Plaza and Halberd, the transitions are much more minor.

Lovage 805 · Mar 26, 2008

It is a great stage, the only reason I can see for making it a CP is the fact that parts of it contain walk off edges. Which are completely broken for Dedede. I'm a dedede main, and if I get one grab off on a Wario, Samus, Tlink, etc etc. their stock is over on a walk off stage. I'm not saying I have skill, every DDD player can do this, his CG is very very easy.

Froth · Mar 26, 2008

This was my favorite stage first time I played Brawl at the Gamestop midnight launch.

RedMage8BT · Mar 26, 2008

I say counterpick. The argument for counterpick seems to be stronger IMO. Too many situations are being presented in which the stage screws you over. Sure you can say "Well, the player could've..." but that can be said for a lot of counterpick stages.

AvengingTiki · Mar 26, 2008

I really like Castle Siege. It is varied yet easy to avoid dying. I think most of the arguments presented are not a valid reason to ban or counterpick the stage. I don't think the transitions between the stage areas are that bad at all, they only last about 5 secs (so walk off tactics don't really apply) and if you're at all familiar with the stage you'll know where you're going to wind up when those 5 secs are over (now if the stage switched randomly between the three phases this would be a whole different story). That being said I unfortunately have to agree that this stage should be counterpick simply because DDD and other walkoff tactics are a real issue in the second phase. Sure you can stay up top and avoid the grabs but one mistake and you're WoP or chaingrabbed to death.

However, I've seen a lot of stage lists with an absurd number of banned stages and I think that it would be unfortunate to ban a lot of stages just because of minor hazards. We're not playing street fighter 2 (just for the record SF2 is amazing still). Smash stages have character and trying to eliminate all of that character is like trying to make smash into a game that it is not. Anyway my two cents, whenever I get to a tourney I'll just get spanked regardless of stage legalization, but I'd like to have a variation of environments where I can get hosed by pro's.

Cynan Machae · Mar 27, 2008

Okay, so I was more in the camp of having Castle Siege as neutral, and I really like that stage, but yesterday as I played on it, something kinda weird happened. As the stages changed from part 2 to part 3, my opponent (Wolf) went literaly through the third plateform. I've haven't seen it mentioned in this topic, so sorry if it is already know.

It's at the end of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ycj1OUdUEs

So, someone can explain what happened here? A thing like this happening in an important match would be really bad. I don't think the Wolf player did anything to provoke it really, but knowing how to avoid it would be good.

S623 · Mar 27, 2008

Cynan Machae said:
Okay, so I was more in the camp of having Castle Siege as neutral, and I really like that stage, but yesterday as I played on it, something kinda weird happened. As the stages changed from part 2 to part 3, my opponent (Wolf) went literally through the third platform. I've haven't seen it mentioned in this topic, so sorry if it is already know.

It's at the end of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ycj1OUdUEs

So, someone can explain what happened here? A thing like this happening in an important match would be really bad. I don't think the Wolf player did anything to provoke it really, but knowing how to avoid it would be good.

Wow. That's just really ****ty luck.

But the walk-off edges in the second part are enough to warrant a counter-pick. I'm unconcerned by you saying it's your fault if you got caught by DeDeDe or you can get out of the chain-grab. I don't think that just because you were caught by him means you get the penalty of losing one stock. And addressing the escape? I haven't been able to escape from the chain-grab unless my character was short or light.

The transitions don't give enough time to go into a full-fledged chain-grab. You could probably get them off the main stage into the air, but then you would be at the same disadvantage.

KosukeKGA · Mar 27, 2008

Just stay on the platforms to avoid Dedede's chaingrab.

Also, that Wolf through the platform glitch works on any character. There's a certain part of the 3rd section of the stage where you completely fall through. No explanation for it, it just happens.

Endless Nightmares · Mar 27, 2008

lol during the stage changes (everything is walk-off) I grab people waaay by the edge with Wario, then when there's no ground below us I allow them to fall to their deaths while I bike back to the stage :laugh:

gg

Cynan Machae · Mar 27, 2008

KosukeKGA said:
Just stay on the platforms to avoid Dedede's chaingrab.

Also, that Wolf through the platform glitch works on any character. There's a certain part of the 3rd section of the stage where you completely fall through. No explanation for it, it just happens.

But what triggers it? Only standing on that specific part when the stage changes?

Chaosblade77 · Mar 27, 2008

In my opinion, when you have to actually put effort into explaining why the issues with the stage aren't enough to make it counterpick... it should probably be a counterpick. It has quite a few faults and gives specific advantages to certain characters, but it's not bad enough to be banned, so that pretty much screams counterpick in my opinion.

I agree banning stages early is not a good idea unless they just aren't suitable at all for tournament play (Mushroomy Kingdom/Rumble Falls), but counterpicking is fine.

Earthbound360 · Mar 27, 2008

One thing I hate about that stage: The statues

I play Ness and his fair is HORRIBLE on that part. If you fair with Ness, its normally fast and hard to get out of since he moves through the air so well, but the statues slow Ness' fair down a LOT. THey take away his aerial grace and make him suffer hitlag even when he hasnt hit an opponent.

Now, this probably wont apply to only Ness. What about Pits nair? ROBs uair? THey're all multi hit aerials that will be slowed down by hitting the statues.

This is only a minor drawback, but one of the reasons I dislike this level.

AlexX · Mar 27, 2008

What disturbs me is that a lot of people are saying that the stage might "at least" be counterpick. Does this mean some people actually believe this stage stands a chance of being banned?

Anyways, I think the walk-off edges are highly exaggerated in terms of danger. Part 2 has plenty of platforms you can stand on to avoid being chain-grabbed by Dedede and the statues prevent projectile spamming, not to mention that the aforementioned chaingrab is gradually losing its validity as an argument as more and more characters are discovering ways to break out of it.

I agree with the idea that we shouldn't be reducing a perfectly good stage to CP soley because of something that hasn't even had the time to be proven to be game-breaking.

MarthSephirothfan · Mar 27, 2008

I agree, Castle Siege is one of my favorite stages and it should be bonafide legal.

Castle Siege isn't "borderline" neutral... it IS neutral.

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