ZSS vs Mewtwo Matchup

[KodakKid3]

I had been dominating a group of friends for a while using Zero Suit until one of them started maining Mewtwo and I've been having a lot of trouble with that matchup.

My biggest issue is that when I grab him, I'm generally unable to successfully pull off any aerial combos after down throwing him because of not only how fast his air dodge is (fastest in the game), but also because how light he is which can often put him just out of reach.

I'll try to just predict air dodges to play around them, but assuming I have a 50/50 chance of predicting past an air dodge (in reality it's probably a little less), he will still go for multiple air dodges in between my combos (which is very doable using Mewtwo) which makes it near impossible to pull of any combos and get KOs.

Given that nearly everyone says Zero Suit has a favorable matchup against Mewtwo, there has to be some way to get around this issue. It is worth noting that I also limit Mewtwo's probably best kill move, his Up Smash, because ZSS is great at avoiding juggling using her agility in jumping and especially her down B. However, he's still able to get kills at high percents using Mewtwo's ridiculous grabs, among other things.

I generally don't have too much of an issue getting damage to him, but what are the most reliable ways to kill Mewtwos?

EDIT: Btw it isn't too difficult getting regular UAirs on him, it's really just killing with Up B that's nearly impossible.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm far from an expert, but first off, if he's able to air dodge, you're not actually comboing him. I imagine you should focus on punishing the endlag of his air dodge. It's a very good air dodge for sure, but they are all punishable. I also struggle in this matchup because Mewtwo's neutral is very strong and simple (and I'm still trying to figure out my own neutral) and he has explosive kill power and coverage with his large, sweeping aerials and mobility.
His grab is not very good, so you should try your best to avoid letting him grab you. Since his grab range isn't great, consequently his options out of shield are not great. So make him respect your spaced aerials, condition and mix him up between safe aerials, empty hops into tilts or grab, space outside of his zone with zair, etc. His shield is pretty easy to play around, but beware jump cancelled up smash and fair.
I think in neutral you want to not let him get Shadow Ball charged up. That move is very, very strong, and meaty so it can snipe landings and cover tech options and kill you.
Killing is something I'm still trying to figure out myself. You've got me there. Hopefully someone more experienced will be able to help you some more.

Also, isn't there a thread for this? Some sort of general matchup thread or QnA thread? Just a thought.

 

[KodakKid3]

Also, isn't there a thread for this? Some sort of general matchup thread or QnA thread? Just a thought.

I tried looking on some match up threads and couldn't find anything too helpful. Thanks for the input though! I think I definitely need to work on spacing more.

 

[KodakKid3]

I figured out a pretty reliable way to kill. I realized I was doing combos somewhat wrong.

Because of how light Mewtwo is, at 53% and higher you can grab him, do 2 pummels, then down throw and immediately Up B to KO reliably. You can also throw in 1 UAir to KO at 47%, but this is a lot harder and becomes near impossible at higher percents due to knocking Mewtwo too high out of range of the combo. Getting 2 UAirs is doable but it makes it very difficult to pull off a successful Up B so I wouldn't recommend trying it.

 

[Trifroze]

If you're connecting an up b from down throw at 50%+ let alone killing with it reliably, your opponents aren't DI'ing at all.

The regular dthrow -> uair -> uair -> up b combo works well enough on Mewtwo, since weight has nothing to do with it, just fall speed, and Mewtwo's fall speed is average. When a character is lighter, you just have to do the combo at lower percents. For instance you need around 30-40% for Mewtwo, 40-50% for Mario, and 50-70% on DK. Mewtwo is so light that if you do it at the percents where up b still barely connects (improperly) he dies off the top on many stages.

Most top/high tier matchups are at least slightly favorable for ZSS but only at a very high level of play where the player has mastered the character. It's not indicative of ~90% of competitive players. You're required to have very accurate and safe spacing, swift awareness to always punish your opponent with jump canceled up b out of shield or up b after a spotdodge, ability to down smash 2 frame ledgesnaps and bait+punish airdodges with flip kick, ledgetrump your opponents and tech chase them if they buffer ledge getup options, know the exact percentages where everything works and so on.

In the Mewtwo matchup you should just focus on annoying him with zair from a distance while avoiding shadow balls. Try to make him approach and then stuff him out by shorthopping backwards and landing with your aerials, or shield/spotdodge his approaches depending on what he likes to approach with. If he relies on grab a lot you should do your best to spotdodge them and punish with up b to make him scared to go for it which opens up more room for you to focus on other things.

If Mewtwo's airdodge is a problem you really need to get used to the timing for punishing it with something like uair, bair or fair, or bait him to airdodge near the ground and up smash to keep him in the air longer, and repeat. As for his invisibility, Mewtwo can't accelerate or change his directions in the air very well at all, so for instance if he's drifting right and airdodging you'll know where he'll be once the airdodge ends. He'll keep moving roughly to the same direction he was moving before he initiated the airdodge wherever it was, so just think of the invisibility as a simple effect and only focus on the timing when he's vulnerable again.

It's important to recognize what options your opponent is relying on the most and learn to punish them for those as much as possible. It makes them doubtful because they become wary to use those options, and that lets you play much more freely as a result. Learning to deal with a single thing can sometimes completely turn a character or a player matchup around.