Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Time/SpaceMage]

So I just read that dair is reflectable o.O
Not something I would want to learn the hard way...

 

[CopShowGuy]

The only moves that AREN'T able to be reflected are: fair, bair, usmash, dmash, utilt, and dtilt.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

And dash attack, right...? Come to think of it, I wonder if reflecting/ps'ing one of Leaf Shield's leaves sends back the whole thing.

Anyway, how safe is shield pressure while your opponent has a Crash Bomb on? I've seen guys on FG keep their shield up and get it broken (with my help), but what all can they do if they're smarter than that?

 

[CopShowGuy]

Right. Dash attack can't be reflected either. I forget about that move sometimes. Reflecting one leaf sends the whole thing back. The smart thing to do if you're stuck with a bomb is get up high and dodge the explosion. Or just roll through it once you're at a safe distance away from Mega Man.

 

[Funkermonster]

Thoughts on the MU? I personally don't do well against this guy and got 2-0'd by one at a local a few weeks ago, I originally kept seeing people consider him a favorable MU. But awhile back, ScAtt's personal MU chart (via his twitter page) has him at 45:55, and I thought he originally considered it +1? I have no idea what happened..

Regardless who wins it, I still feel I play the MU wrong either way and I'd definitely like some help/

 

[CopShowGuy]

It's hard for Mega Man to approach Mac when we need to. We have to play extra lame.

 

[Wreck33]

Always get outta there when Mac is in Fsmash and dash attack range. The odds are against you going in. Play ultra safe. In the video though you missed 100+ good moments doing different attacks when you lemoned around. Learn how to follow up after pellet hit confirms! Never let him land. He is the easiest char to land Up tilts on. 60% of the time at least he shouldn't be able to recover from off stage. Down tilt is a monster vs mac to.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, does anyone else agree that link's hylian shield means nothing in the grand scheme of the mega man matchup?

That feel when a link main tries to tell you that the hylian shield conditions mega man to stop zoning so that link gets the chance to go on the aggressive...but link has to either stand still or walk forward it to work.
Why would you try to 'zone' any non moving opponent tho? If link doesn't move, then that's YOUR chance to go in and take advantage of link's poor CQC. If link walks, he only has his slow tilts/jab available to him while you get better positioning to land a downwards thrown metal blade/pellet x2 -> nair/grab/etc. Or if you have the percent lead, keep shooting anyway until link does something. I just don't see how he came to the conclusion that the hylian shield helps link go on the aggressive.

The Mega man player won't just sit there and do nothing when link finally decides to try and go in.

Link can't gain any advantage from standing still, so he has to move some time if he doesn't want mega man jumping all over him. Once he does move, then we just pepper him with superior zoning.

 

[Megamang]

Ehh, hylian shield is alright. Not negligible, not MU defining.

The ease of gimping link with bair/dair/metal blade is something that is more impactful, imo.

Both link's bad frame data really betrays them when they are being pestered by pellets.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Alright, does anyone else agree that link's hylian shield means nothing in the grand scheme of the mega man matchup?

A topic on this subject was made early on in the game's launch. Nothing has really changed since then on this subject:
http://smashboards.com/threads/does-link-hard-counter-mega-man.369276/

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Why isn't this a pinned post? I feel like a big dummy now because made a thread about megaman vs ryu
http://smashboards.com/threads/megaman-vs-ryu.438488/#post-21276808
and then a mod locked it and linked this thread. I would have just posted here had I known but I didn't see it in pins and I already read the boss select one. If anyone wants to give some more advice on the match up it would be much appreciated, the advice so far has helped substantially.

 

[Mythzotick]

Even though I'm not a fan of the match up at all, Kamemushi made it look even after watching him adjust to Ally during EVO Grand Finals. So now that EVO is wrapped up, what do you guys think of the Mario match up as of today?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Even though I'm not a fan of the match up at all, Kamemushi made it look even after watching him adjust to Ally during EVO Grand Finals. So now that EVO is wrapped up, what do you guys think of the Mario match up as of today?

Well Ally's an amazing player, and so is Kame, but Mario is a hard counter to fight. It's still in Mario's favor, but thanks to Kame, it doesn't look as bad as it used to.

 

[Wreck33]

I think kame played like **** and lost because of it. He switch neutral though and even Ally couldnt get in anymore after that. Point being I think Mega Man is in favor in this MU once you realize what to do in neutral.

 

[smasher1001]

I think kame played like **** and lost because of it. He switch neutral though and even Ally couldnt get in anymore after that. Point being I think Mega Man is in favor in this MU once you realize what to do in neutral.

In detail, can you explain your thoughts on a full proper mega neutral vs mario? I would be interested.

 

[Wreck33]

Pellet ftilt ftilt nair backwards, then triple nair pellet in one string, the string you see I do in my vids. If you connect first pellet advance if shielded fade backwards, rince and repeat. As soon as there is a gap between you full hop downwards throw MB that you pellet pick up and use the blade afterwards either as shield punish setups or just for pressure. If mario capes your pellets with mb in hand you can punish with item thrown MB to grab or bair if you are kame lol. Thats basically the fundamental then you add stuff depending on what the Mario decides to do to react to this. This will make the neutral heavily in your favor. Then the rest is dependant how good you are edge guarding.

 

[jimm]

Anyone else feel like the Falco matchup is literally 0:100? I just found an old video of when I played this game and a Falco in For Glory was literally doing nothing but rolling back, shooting lasers, and using that reflector, and they won. Falco's moving shine means pellets, the gear, crash bomb, etc. all are now invalid options, Mega Man can't run in towards Falco or he'll get shined (which is seemingly guaranteed safe on shield or whiff in this matchup), if Mega Man tries to come in from the air diagonally Falco can trivially shield grab or just get out of the way and shine more, shine beats dtilt, shine beats everything. I'm honestly not even convinced that if I played Falco against Zero or someone playing Mega Man that they would be able to take any stocks off me if I just stuck to this shine/shield strategy, because from my experience it's a true 0:100 matchup.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Anyone else feel like the Falco matchup is literally 0:100? I just found an old video of when I played this game and a Falco in For Glory was literally doing nothing but rolling back, shooting lasers, and using that reflector, and they won. Falco's moving shine means pellets, the gear, crash bomb, etc. all are now invalid options, Mega Man can't run in towards Falco or he'll get shined (which is seemingly guaranteed safe on shield or whiff in this matchup), if Mega Man tries to come in from the air diagonally Falco can trivially shield grab or just get out of the way and shine more, shine beats dtilt, shine beats everything. I'm honestly not even convinced that if I played Falco against Zero or someone playing Mega Man that they would be able to take any stocks off me if I just stuck to this shine/shield strategy, because from my experience it's a true 0:100 matchup.

You know what your problem is? Approaching Falco. Megs's approach options are fairly limited, so approaching someone like Falco, who uses his Reflector as a means of getting people off of him, is not a good idea. The key to Falco is not throw stuff out at random, as that will be used against you. You're going to have to be a stone in this MU, and you must keep your ground at all times. I also can't help but feel that you were being incredibly inpatient and just went in, as you likely ran towards Falco. That's why you see a lot of Falco players use the Reflector in this MU. Luckily for us, Falco doesn't have good approach options and doesn't take much to die. I suggest killing with B-Throw or B-Air, as those are the safest options. If he screws up a landing on shield, U-Tilt will do him in quickly.

I do understand where you're coming from though, as I hate the Falco MU myself. Just keep your cool, your ground, and catch him whenever he does something unsafe.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I've had one match vs Falco that went like that in the early days. It really is all about how you approach in that MU. You have to be much more precise and safe. Baiting the reflector out can net you a small punish with fair. You'll have to get him to approach you so you can really hit him.

 

[jimm]

if you just don't approach, then Falco can just get you with a few lasers then sit in the corner until time runs out.

 

[Mythzotick]

Falco isn't fast enough to overwhelm us and is extremely vulnerable once he is offstage. If the Falco player is laser or shine happy, just jump off of Rush to get around or avoid his lasers and bait out his shine since it's a pretty laggy and punishable move up close. Oos U-tilt is a great punish if he is at kill %; which is really early since he is a light weight.

It's still kind of an annoying match up to deal with, but it is far, FAR, from being an unwinnable match up; not even close. Just keep practicing the match up and you'll get better fighting against Falco.

 

[CopShowGuy]

if you just don't approach, then Falco can just get you with a few lasers then sit in the corner until time runs out.

No one is saying to not approach. You just have to be more careful in your approach and punish his mistakes.

 

[jimm]

I've tested it in training mode at the slowest speed. There was like a 3 frame window where you could get a guaranteed punish on a shine if you reacted on frame 1 of the shine happening.

I gave up on the game a long time ago because Mega Man was the only character I really liked and almost every matchup with him felt like a losing one. I was just curious if anything new developed against Falco with him.

 

[Rush 2112]

It's very easy to run in and shield the reflector and get a grab before he can act. Also jumping MB downwards, while staying out of the path of it's possible return, is a safe way to go after a reflector as well. If you Nair sweetspot the reflector you basically walk right through it. The hardest part of the matchup is falco's multihit aerials.

The matchups against Mega Man are not bad. It's likely how you were playing him that was the problem.

 

[jimm]

It's very easy to run in and shield the reflector and get a grab before he can act. Also jumping MB downwards, while staying out of the path of it's possible return, is a safe way to go after a reflector as well. If you Nair sweetspot the reflector you basically walk right through it. The hardest part of the matchup is falco's multihit aerials.

The matchups against Mega Man are not bad. It's likely how you were playing him that was the problem.

I first got the game when the demo was first pre-available and played that in training mode for hours daily, then after it came out played Mega Man on For Glory and Anther's Ladder for hours daily, for a very long time. After a long time of that I was still mostly only able to win if the other player was significantly less experienced. Maybe despite all that it was still me and not the character but I honestly think it would've been a very different story if I used Sheik or someone from the beginning instead.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Just because you play a character for a long time, doesn't mean you've been playing him well the whole time. Your approach to fighting Falco shouldn't be the same as when you fight everyone else is all he said.

 

[Rush 2112]

I was more saying that he wasn't using MM right at all.

If you make a statement like all MU's are losing matchups, then I have to question your skill with MM. Most other characters are easier to use, so yeah you might not have the same issues with a character like Shiek.

I've always felt that MM wasn't a typical Smash character. Normally the way to play smash is use optimal moves and chase with combos, putting your body in the fray. MM doesn't play that way(except the optimal moves part), while most other characters do. MM is about using projectiles to their fullest. Utilizing spacing and keeping your body out of harms way while stuffing a hitbox in your opponent's face. Especially with the properties of MM's projectiles, it takes a different style to really master and some people aren't capable of that.

 

[Nu~]

I was more saying that he wasn't using MM right at all.

If you make a statement like all MU's are losing matchups, then I have to question your skill with MM. Most other characters are easier to use, so yeah you might not have the same issues with a character like Shiek.

I've always felt that MM wasn't a typical Smash character. Normally the way to play smash is use optimal moves and chase with combos, putting your body in the fray. MM doesn't play that way(except the optimal moves part), while most other characters do. MM is about using projectiles to their fullest. Utilizing spacing and keeping your body out of harms way while stuffing a hitbox in your opponent's face. Especially with the properties of MM's projectiles, it takes a different style to really master and some people aren't capable of that.

Tbh that isn't exactly a new style of play. Projectile zoners (hell, swordies play that way too. Trade the word "projectiles" for "transcendent, ranged hitboxes") have existed for years lol.

What is unique about mega man is the complete lack of cqc traded for hardcore midrange play. He's the most polarized zoner there is

 

[Rush 2112]

I didn't say that MM was the only one who plays like that, which is why I said most other characters. But when you watch high level smash, and the top tier characters, they play a certain way. There is a lot of chasing and close ranged combat, and true combos. If you try to apply that to MM, you will lose because he doesn't have the frame data for it. Smash has been all about that for years. I'd say it's part of the reason people dislike MM, think he's spammy or boring to watch. Cause it's not flashy and cool and quick like other characters. It's slow methodical safe chipping away.

Even with a sword, you need to close the gap to attack which puts your body in harms way. So you end up playing the same way as you would with Mario while spacing in inches. I'm not talking about the space of your own hitbox, but space well beyond the reach of your opponents hitbox. Spacing in character lengths.

In a Smash game, with a character high enough in the Tier list as MM, I'd say that's unique enough for someone to have trouble playing him over the rest of the cast.

 

[Megamang]

Ive found improving has to be pretty unique with mega as well.

I got duffed by Lucas, hard. Thought he was a terrible MU. Only when I completely changed the way I played did I start taking on the MU with success.

Mega can win neutral 90%+ and still lose.


Anyways, I think Megaman can be fast and flashy and still be effective. Ive found my lacklustre (in damage and comboing, not including bair and uair) normals are very strong when supplemented with a metal blade falling on your head. Then you have complex traps where a metal blade and uair may miss, but its all to land a grab and bthrow leading to an edgeguard.


...

Top players sit back and watch their VODs, and other top player's VODs. They do this to learn.

The fact that Dabuz is spending hours pouring over footage to find out how to improve makes it laughable when a smashboards posters mentions theyve basically mastered a character.

Show me a match where you play perfect and still lose. Not frame perfect of course, but one where you cant pause and question a decision, reaction, read, etc etc. I doubt it exists.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I feel like MU's against characters with reflectors are easier with the use of leaf shield. Activate it on short hop toward opponent (but not too close) and then run or jump in and shield, punish them with a grab if they do something unsafe.