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Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

Megamang

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If feel it is about to disappear on you, chuck it (with a smash throw) upwards. It feels like it goes particularly high, though im not used to things coming down (metal blade). Grab it again, rechuck, etc. If he goes for it, you can sometimes combo air shooter > gyro hit > air shooter for an absurd amount of damage.
 

ravemaster47

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I think rob is about even to slight advantage. Koopa kids I think we have advantage. Most I have played all play very flowchart like. And is usually easy to find their patters.
 

Yojimbosan

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Don't forget about what an easy target Bowser jr.'s recovery is for Mega Man's dair. It's always good when you don't have to contend with rising hitboxes.
 

Megamang

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Another bowser jr must know is SDIing out of his rapid jab. It seems really powerful at first, because it has insanely high damage output, but its actually escapable to the point that BowJow mains really want a fox esque patch to make it usable.
 

ravemaster47

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I love using leaf shield against jr's recovery. Sp funny to watch them plummet to their doom and all I did was stand there.
 

Drarky

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I was going to put Bowser Jr in advantage, but I wasn't 100% sure so thanks for the info!

And I think Lucario would probable be a -1 (AKA Noted Disadvantage), considering our lack of kill options, which means that if MM is not getting a good edgeguard, Lucario will probably kill him rather easily. Also Aura Sphere at around 100% beats everything Mega Man has.
 

Megamang

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Lucario's neutral isn't good enough to be a disadvantaged MU in my opinion. You have to learn how he kills and avoid it. This means being really safe in neutral, because a FP grab kills crazy early if he has high %. Additionally, he has a really strong bair. It is slower and smaller than ours though, so learn to contest it *if it means you get the kill*. Not worth the risk before that time. Like someone said, his recovery/ledge options* aren't great, so get him offstage and keep racking up that damage. Keep it mind it does have a hitbox, so don't forget and lose clutch games to that because with aura and rage eventually everything freakin kills. Watch for ASC (Aura Sphere Charge's hitbox) into u-smash, its their most technical kill setup and can catch you offguard easily. Learn to powershield Aura Sphere, and maybe spend some time learning when your projectiles will stop it based on charge/aura, since that all fluctuates... but a general idea is good enough, and play it safe when you don't know. Powershield powershield powershield. Luco's neutral is neutered from brawl in exchange for extreme aura boosts, so much like MK/ZSS he can win even if he loses 90% of the game. So don't get greedy, and dont be afraid to timeout. I mean, decisively end the game when you can because more time for an upset isn't ideal, but don't start unsafely chasing him around or he'll kill you before you thought possible.

*His ledge options aren't great for getting off the ledge, his ledge coverage options are stellar and you should be mindful to not spend much time on the ledge/recovering if you can. DI up and spring away, he can't juggle super well though uair will eventually kill with aura...

Some Lucario's will start using counter if they get frustrated with your zoning. His is particularly slow and punishable on powershield, so don't stand there and die when you hit his double-teamming self.
 

Xavix

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I always preemptively cover the ledge when Lucario is recovering because the up B landing lag is INSANE for Lucario. It's a free punish for practically every move and setup, so making sure he doesn't grab ledge is key. I would cover ledge with Lemons and then immediately double jump to make it back onstage assuming he doesn't go for ledge. It's probably his biggest weakness.
 

CopShowGuy

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Lucario can land extreme speed on stage without suffering the horrible end lag. I forget how our resident Lucario main described it but I think it depends on the angle or how far below/above the ledge he is when he starts the move. Perhaps the more he curves the recovery, the more landing lag it suffers.
 

Xavix

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Lucario can land extreme speed on stage without suffering the horrible end lag. I forget how our resident Lucario main described it but I think it depends on the angle or how far below/above the ledge he is when he starts the move. Perhaps the more he curves the recovery, the more landing lag it suffers.
Ok, good to know. I still think megaman wins due to outright consistency,as well as slightly out ranging him with pellets. I never found aura sphere too troublesome either as it is incredibly easy to predict due to poor playing.
 

Mega-Spider

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Whenever I see people make lists discussing Megs' match ups, I noticed that he doesn't have that many MU's he loses too. Sheik and Mario are the biggest threats by far, but those are the only two that are nearly unwinnable from my experience. I also notice that a lot of characters are even with Megs, even some of the top tiers like Sonic and Diddy are even against him. Hell, Mega Man has the advantage over Ryu, and when he was a top tier, Luigi. Mega Man's easily one of the more unique characters in terms of match up spread if you ask me. Could he have more advantaged match ups? Sure, but being able to go even with Diddy after all those hoo hahs feels great since it isn't so one-sided.
 

Xavix

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Whenever I see people make lists discussing Megs' match ups, I noticed that he doesn't have that many MU's he loses too. Sheik and Mario are the biggest threats by far, but those are the only two that are nearly unwinnable from my experience. I also notice that a lot of characters are even with Megs, even some of the top tiers like Sonic and Diddy are even against him. Hell, Mega Man has the advantage over Ryu, and when he was a top tier, Luigi. Mega Man's easily one of the more unique characters in terms of match up spread if you ask me. Could he have more advantaged match ups? Sure, but being able to go even with Diddy after all those hoo hahs feels great since it isn't so one-sided.
Megaman goes so even for the most part because he has the right tools with his moveset for nearly every matchup, but they don't seem to overpower any characters either. He is one of the most balanced characters IMO.
 

Megamang

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He doesn't have absurd advantage state like the top tiers, who are consistent tournament threats not only because they are good but because they can win games consistently and quickly. So, its hard to adapt to a top tier player if they kill you with a kill confirm before you really get a read on how they're gonna do it; this is more true the more kill options they have! He also doesn't have the crazy disadvantage of the games queens, and is actually pretty gimpable. Of course, good play can largely negate that but its something other characters don't have to worry about and is a problem vs MK, pika, and sometimes shiek and CF (probably some others im forgetting). So he doesn't have the get out of mistake free card that is a livesaver for many as they move through bracket.

No, what mega has is better than that. Before those adv/disadv states come into play, we have the neutral. Mega offers complete neutral dominance. Some MUs, like DDD and ganon, are really easy because of how hard this dominance is. Others, like luigi, can wreck us when they get in and still lose the MU because the wall of mega is that good. This is a top tier threat, we even break even vs ZSS because our neutral is better. Some say the MU is a problem, but I have heard MK also doesn't like playing us. As we get better and better at keeping people out ( I think we can utilize more rising airdodge and spring escapes personally, our landing is waaaay above average due to leaf shield) this will only get better.

Additionally, this metagame currently places huge emphasis on kill confirms. Unlike most unlucky mid tiers, we do have these kill confirms! Downwards saw blade into u-tilt kills crazy early, and when that stops working usmash keeps it real from the same setups. Additionally, DICIT forwards confirms into utilt and usmash (and if youre fast, bair)! Top tiers also have super early kills from 50/50s, 33/33/33, whatever... We have really really deadly tornado traps, which I think we need to explore more.

Falling away with someone with your back towards them is a really scary position for them. Megaman's bair is frame 4 and kills with huge range, its one of the best bairs and its a big reason I believe in and play megaman. This naturally causes airdodges, but these get eaten if you wait and bair OR start hitting tornadoes. From here a couple reads works with momentum physics in this game and can roofio them from absurd percents. The tornado itself does super high damage for an aerial (hell, for a smash) as well, so even if they escape you basically accomplish what a long BnB from a top tier does in damage. I've also baited an airdodge from diagonal below by jumping, jumped through them and gave them the business end of a dair.

I see megaman like brawl olimar. I think it was dabuz said about his MU with MK (paraphrasing obv): 'You basically have to win neutral a lot more, but you have the tools to do so'. Thats where we are going. I already have people saying 'wtf do I do vs megaman'. Lets make more people ask that!
 

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鉄腕
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Is anyone interested in taking over this thread & selecting specific topics? Like the Mewtwo board, I think our focus should be creating a general match up chart this year.

Given there are more competitively minded players here, I think we could get a lot done if we put our minds to it.
 

Mega-Spider

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Is anyone interested in taking over this thread & selecting specific topics? Like the Mewtwo board, I think our focus should be creating a general match up chart this year.

Given there are more competitively minded players here, I think we could get a lot done if we put our minds to it.
I would love to take over, but seeing as how I'm still in high school and need to finish my Senior year off strong, I don't think I can put in the time to run it. I can give input though. :)
 

Xavix

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Is anyone interested in taking over this thread & selecting specific topics? Like the Mewtwo board, I think our focus should be creating a general match up chart this year.

Given there are more competitively minded players here, I think we could get a lot done if we put our minds to it.
I could try. Currently doing school as well, but I seem to have more time on my hands currently (sophmore year= nothing happening)
 

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鉄腕
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I could try. Currently doing school as well, but I seem to have more time on my hands currently (sophmore year= nothing happening)
So would you like to take it over then? For the most part it's just managing the OP and selecting a match up every few days.

The OP currently looks crazy, so if it's easier for everyone a new thread can be created. I know we have a general match up thread already, so we can get that active while leaving this one open for creating an eventual match up chart.
 

Xavix

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So would you like to take it over then? For the most part it's just managing the OP and selecting a match up every few days.

The OP currently looks crazy, so if it's easier for everyone a new thread can be created. I know we have a general match up thread already, so we can get that active while leaving this one open for creating an eventual match up chart.
I can try! If we are creating a new thread I can open one tommorrow.
 
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Drarky

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Yeah Mega Man's got the upper against Ryu easily. Him being a character which doesn't like projectiles doesn't mix well with Mega Man.
 

Megamang

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Yep, especially since pellets, metal blade, air shooter, bair, and leaf shield all give him trouble by breaking Focus Attack. Dair rekts his Shakenetsu, keeping him out is brutal, leaf shield -> grab is a nice high damage tool to break his focus attack as well... Thats only when we're in a corner, or he is in a corner and we want to chuck him offstage. Otherwise we just do soooo much pellet damage while preventing him from dealing any at all. Im gonna go check out what the Ryu boards think.
 

Nu~

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I agree that we win the matchup. Mega Man doesn't allow ryu to play what he excells in: footsies. Of course Ryu will beat us up pretty badly if he does get in, but we control the pace of the match.
 
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Xavix

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Is anyone interested in taking over this thread & selecting specific topics? Like the Mewtwo board, I think our focus should be creating a general match up chart this year.

Given there are more competitively minded players here, I think we could get a lot done if we put our minds to it.
To bring this back up, I actually have a new thread drafted if we want to move, we would return back to a schedule of covering individual characters and probably reopening the general discussion thread. Any thoughts?
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Mega Man is probably the strongest counter against Ryu because Ryu's approaches are nowhere near as effective despite his combo game on Megaman being stronger. Staying safe towards center stage seems to work the best since all of his approaches are easily avoided and you can push him to the edge for ledge guards with ease, although challenging his shoryuken for recovery is not ideal as it beats out nearly everything. I'd say Megaman wins the matchup easily, which is huge considering the recent spike in Ryu players I've been seeing (Idk if more people like the character or the tier list made him popular but I've noticed more at my locals)
 

Megamang

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Or perhaps people feel they needed to invest a certain amount of time before Ryu is worthwhile. For example, if you can't do the tech stuff like special canceling and consistently confirm into True Shoryu, you know you aren't tourney ready.


Anyways, im all for starting MU threads over and revisiting MUs. Starting top down, I'd love to see that since MU knowledge is something that should always be advancing, and old info can get you eliminated quick if the opponent is up to date.
 

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鉄腕
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Patches have radically changed a lot of match ups so it's worth looking back on them IMO.

Xavix Xavix Just post the new thread and I'll take care of the rest. I'll also bump/start a new general thread so non-weekly match up questions/opinions can be taken there.
 

Megamang

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Diddy is really nice. Pellets can stop bananas, monkey flip, and much of his zoning. We can gimp him, and when he tries to go above we can tack on serious damage. Leaf shield does a lot in the MU as well. When we have banana, we can still zone with some of our projectiles, all while looking for a banana confirm for utilt which kills absurdly early.

Cloud... aint great. We lose, but I don't think its terrible. We can edgeguard him, if you learn to place dair really well and follow the cloud's movement, with some consistency. Bair also helps. As for getting him offstage, ftilt nair chains are alright, throws are alright. We have problems with the buster swords absurd power, and he can edgeguard us decently well. Its probably a -1, some posters would say closer to even (such as myself, but I don't want to post my unproven theorycraft here) while some would probably say its worse, such as Greward, who has more results than I do and probably more experience.

Corrin, I believe we beat. A character with subpar mobility has problems with pellets, and much like monkey flip, pellets can slow down her kick while we get out of the way. a simple pellet stops a charged dragon fang shot, and she really has to approach us in the MU. Her confirms don't kill us for quite a while, we can avoid tilts decently because we zone from afar, and careful play can avoid her f-smash. I'd say we win barely, but probably most would say even? Im not sure, you'd have to check the corrin boards for more info, we haven't gotten to her yet.


If you're looking for a midtier that can spring out and beat diddy, Megaman is your dude. But you'll need to put some work into making your mega good enough, since mega has pretty low reward (at low risk!) and requires a consistently well played game to win, you'll have to actually know the character and do things pretty well to get the W. Cloud is a problem, but he crushes most of the mid tier worse and will probably be toned down in the next few months anyways, since he is friggin dominating the meta in every continent and is only going to get more optimized.
 

CopShowGuy

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We really restrict Diddy's use of his banana and it's easy to avoid his dtilt combos. Cloud is strong but pretty easy to edge guard. Corrin? Be careful of her nair and fsmash. Nair covers all around her and fsmash goes through all of our projectiles.
 

CelestialMarauder~

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I don't mind putting in work for him. I had him as a secondary early into the game but dropped because it was hard to learn how everything the lil guy has applies to every matchup lmao. If i limit it to like 3 matchups i think its fine. If cloud isn't too bad and Corrin and Diddy are even or better he's worth learning i think.
 

Time/SpaceMage

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Any tips for not panicking when the opponent gets too close? Especially when they're right behind me? I have a bad habit of dsmashing or rolling when I need something faster.
 

Megamang

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One responsive utilt kill at 75% and theyll fear that range as well.

Rolls are a decent option. Nair is fast. Rising doublejump airdodge is goat.
 

Time/SpaceMage

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A utilt... behind me? Can you input a reverse one or do you have to turn around first? Well, I'll look into it next session.

How do Link's projectiles fare against ours? He also likes to lock down and the only option I've found for arrows is to just duck. Like, they force me to stop my spam to dodge it. His shield is annoying too.
 
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Megamang

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Well, right behind you at frame neutral is a hard position to get into, and it means they are at an advantage for their efforts. If they are rolling behind you, stay mobile and punish it. If they are airdodging thru to land there you should have time to turn around and utilt them.

How are they ending up behind you?

A good tool for maintaining stage position is pivot ftilt. You can run full speed away and cancel it at any time with turning around instantly firing pellets. So if someone like Cloud jumps at you and starts threatening a space you can't defend, this is sometimes a better option than allowing them to land behind you.

(I missed the behind you part initially, my bad. This is more of a situation to avoid, but I'd reccommend avoiding dsmash here because it can result in really severe punishment, as can utilt (but its faster startup means you have a good idea of when it'll hit)
 

Time/SpaceMage

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That's a good point; I need to study how they're getting behind me. I'll look for it next session and take more replays.

Pivot ftilt is pretty handy; I should use it more often. Though, sometimes I get that when I'm trying to pivot grab. Any tips on pivot grabbing without requiring L+A?

Oh and... I edited my last post with some Link MU questions.
 

CopShowGuy

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You don't always have to attack when in a bad position. In fact, our frame data isn't very fast. Sometimes just walking or dashing out is safer.

The only projectiles Link has that we really have to respect is Bomb and fully charged arrows. We can't shoot bombs down and fully charged arrows eat pellets (they also make Link a sitting duck if you aren't off stage).
 

Time/SpaceMage

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Yeah, I was fighting a Lucina earlier and surprisingly made her miss a lot by just moving around more. (Of course then she started tracking me with Dancing Blade, but I suppose I should just shield that and not be open when she's starting it up.)

Watch out for bombs too, huh? Okay, maybe I can catch them with an airdodge.
 
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