List / Chart ZeRo's 3.1.0 Tier List

[J.I.L]

I don't see how anything beats a character with a Frame 7, 20%+ dealing OoS option, a Frame 1 Grenade, a Frame 5 burst option with intang-frames on the arms that crosses up shields, a FSmash that fully charged does over 40%, an USmash that controls and shuts down space like no other, walk up slowly DSmash DSmash, a Side B with near-unpunishable endlag that sets up free edge guards and everything else that makes up the character we call Snake.

But I digress.. the electric rat with only a single notable player and meh results compared to the other top tiers, clearly better.



No offense, but there's nothing remotely competitively accurate about what you've posted here. That's a pretty casual 'tier list' and I'm unsure of what it has to do with the thread at all, you could've just made another thread of your own if you wanted to post a whole list.

I was replying to zero tier list, and I’m no casual. Excuse me, but a gsp of 4.987 million sound casual to you? Exactly. And it is competivly. How is it wrong?

 

[FruitLoop]

I was replying to zero tier list, and I’m no casual. Excuse me, but a gsp of 4.987 million sound casual to you? Exactly. And it is competivly. How is it wrong?

you literally put fox in bottom 5 and sonic as the best char in the game, you tell me. Gsp means nothing and I’m over here with 5+ mil gsp having to tell you that (and I have proof too) and honestly gsp doesn’t make it any less casual imo. But i’d mostly recommend making another thread for that thanks

 

[Tri Knight]

I cant believe someone really just used GSP as an excuse for not being casual...

 

[J.I.L]

I cant believe someone really just used GSP as an excuse for not being casual...

I’m a casual player with competitive skill.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yo listen up, we all know that Roy is actually the best character right? Being able to kill anyone with a charged neutral B is no joke. It’s the same in all other games Roy has been in.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Yo listen up, we all know that Roy is actually the best character right? Being able to kill anyone with a charged neutral B is no joke. It’s the same in all other games Roy has been in.

I think he's actually underrated in Zer'os tierlist and he is already at the top of high-tier.
Lagless aerials when landing (laggiest is dAir with 14 frames, uAir is frame 8), lagless startup on all other moves, sour-spot combo game is no joke, average recovery, 4th best air speed, 12th best run speed. I can't see him anywhere below top 5 in all honesty. With lagless I mean: everything is frame 10 or faster
Chrom's a bit worse but he's also up there.

 

[Idon]

I’m a casual player with competitive skill.

You're a casual player with greater than average casual skill.

 

[J.I.L]

I think he's actually underrated in Zer'os tierlist and he is already at the top of high-tier.
Lagless aerials when landing (laggiest is dAir with 14 frames, uAir is frame 8), lagless startup on all other moves, sour-spot combo game is no joke, average recovery, 4th best air speed, 12th best run speed. I can't see him anywhere below top 5 in all honesty. With lagless I mean: everything is frame 10 or faster
Chrom's a bit worse but he's also up there.

Heck no. Roy’s are solid, but they aren’t that great. It’s essy to just camp them out and play defensive plus their recovery isn’t that good. Roy is no where near top 5.

Idon watch yourself, mr don. You don’t know how good I am, and I think you should just drop this convo. Less you want a battle arena set up where I promptly make an example you for questioning my skill.

 

[FruitLoop]

Heck no. Roy’s are solid, but they aren’t that great. It’s essy to just camp them out and play defensive plus their recovery isn’t that good. Roy is no where near top 5.

Idon watch yourself, mr don. You don’t know how good I am, and I think you should just drop this convo. Less you want a battle arena set up where I promptly make an example you for questioning my skill.

If ya really want to end it, you can just set an arena in my pms but It can’t be until a few more days since I’m on a trip rn.

 

[J.I.L]

If ya really want to end it, you can just set an arena in my pms but It can’t be until a few more days since I’m on a trip rn.

a 5 milion gsp deddee...that's weird. Most deddee I run into aren'tt hat good, hence why I have him in B tier. Also, have to make a slight tweak. Ryu is A TIER just played one at 4.97 mill, he got lucky...but beat my main. I ranked ryus low because i hadnt run into them awhile. But yeah, they are really good.

 

[DelugeFGC]

a 5 milion gsp deddee...that's weird. Most deddee I run into aren'tt hat good, hence why I have him in B tier. Also, have to make a slight tweak. Ryu is A TIER just played one at 4.97 mill, he got lucky...but beat my main. I ranked ryus low because i hadnt run into them awhile. But yeah, they are really good.

Do you really not realize that Elite Smash is in literally no way an indicator of character viability in competitive settings, as Elite Smash is not a competitive setting. Playing against pools of casuals alongside some competitive players, all through lag and everything else.. lmfao no.

That alone is evidence of the point everyone else here is trying to make. Online play literally has nothing to do with character viability in competitive settings. I'm sure you do real great against all your friends and against the PK Fire spamming Ness players you meet online, but at the end of the day unless you're actively competing in tournaments and soaking in the meta.. you are not a competitive player. That doesn't somehow make you lesser, nor is it an insult, just a fact.

Also there is no point in turning this into some sort of ****-measuring contest by comparing GSP and setting up BA matches. We're not five years old, jesus.

 

[FruitLoop]

Do you really not realize that Elite Smash is in literally no way an indicator of character viability in competitive settings, as Elite Smash is not a competitive setting. Playing against pools of casuals alongside some competitive players, all through lag and everything else.. lmfao no.

That alone is evidence of the point everyone else here is trying to make. Online play literally has nothing to do with character viability in competitive settings. I'm sure you do real great against all your friends and against the PK Fire spamming Ness players you meet online, but at the end of the day unless you're actively competing in tournaments and soaking in the meta.. you are not a competitive player. That doesn't somehow make you lesser, nor is it an insult, just a fact.

Like maybe you could secretly be a fantastic Faldo that would make Larry lurr drool, but we can’t tell it at the end of the day from just gsp. Unlike tournament results it doesn’t show you at your true potential and since half of the opponents you face in elite either spam, are autopilotable, or sometimes abuse bad rules such as illegal stages, short time limits for time outs, etc alongside precision being iffy online alongside lag and the fact that the input lag can cause you to lose a stock because the game decided to cause misinputs all leads to a flawed system for measuring worth. Gsp don’t matter, fundamentals do and tournaments to a lesser extent due to the concept of upsets imo.

 

[DelugeFGC]

In a perfect world, if Elite Smash / Quickplay weren't lag-infested (which paired with the buffer this game has is an absolute nightmare to deal with online, though I will say I do like the buffer overall unlike some.. just wish it was shorter) with rulesets that can go in literally any random direction, it might be at least a decent indicator of some things.. still not even a third as valuable as tournaments and such, but it'd be something.

But alas, that is not the world we live in. We live in a world where you can get into Elite Smash by either being a genuinely good player who rides on your fundamentals and MU knowledge, or by pressing the B button a bunch and having lag do all the heavy lifting for you. There's really no way to tell, and it's one of the many reasons GSP is such a flawed system.

All irrelevant to the topic at hand, though..

 

[J.I.L]

Do you really not realize that Elite Smash is in literally no way an indicator of character viability in competitive settings, as Elite Smash is not a competitive setting. Playing against pools of casuals alongside some competitive players, all through lag and everything else.. lmfao no.

That alone is evidence of the point everyone else here is trying to make. Online play literally has nothing to do with character viability in competitive settings. I'm sure you do real great against all your friends and against the PK Fire spamming Ness players you meet online, but at the end of the day unless you're actively competing in tournaments and soaking in the meta.. you are not a competitive player. That doesn't somehow make you lesser, nor is it an insult, just a fact.

Also there is no point in turning this into some sort of ****-measuring contest by comparing GSP and setting up BA matches. We're not five years old, jesus.

Dude, you main stinking captain falcon. Give me a break. loooooooooooooool. And yes elite smash. All of my rankings are from quickplay, and some of it aligns with zero's own ranking. So what are you talking about? and my ranking wasn't order, each tier chracter was randomly put, it wasn't ordered from best to worst in that tier. A don't care about label, I care about skill. A casual could be better then competitive player. oNLY THING that makes a competitive player is if they attend locals.

lol, jokes on you I'm actually one of those nesses. He's my third main.
Idk what you're talking about being 5 years old, setting up BA is a good way to see who's better then who. Can't claim someone's a good fighter but are too chicken to want to catch some hands after school in the woods complainging you need a boxing ring to fight properly.
The people who are most admant about saying online dosen't matter at all are the type of people who go to spectate other prop players, think they are good because they were around pro players....then go online and get BODIED and say "LAG...oh my gosh....GSP IS STUPID (it kinda is though).... DOSEN'T matter!". Mr. King Deddee over here is setting up an arena. Come join the fray if you have the balls.

And point is, I'm credibly enough to dissagree with zero because i've seen all of the players play. Wether online or offline.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Whoosh.

At least it's a good indicator of whose posts I should ignore by default in this subforum. Guess I at least got something out of that, thanks for proving my point though.

For future reference, don't start your rebuttals off with what was practically an ad hominem attack (who I main has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand in any fashion and I can see it in no other way than an attempt to take a stab at me, and given the tone of your posts, I'd say I'm right on the money) only to lead into a long unorganized post that literally ignores pretty much everything stated here. You're the one who came in here and completely derailed the thread with your netplay tier list, don't act so surprised this is the response.

I also highly suggest you look into looking up what input lag means, because it seems to truly just go right over your head, I can come to no other conclusion based off the tone of your posts. Input lag by itself is a reason online play is worthless inside of a competitive discussion. Literally worthless.

 

[FruitLoop]

Dude, you main stinking captain falcon. Give me a break. loooooooooooooool. And yes elite smash. All of my rankings are from quickplay, and some of it aligns with zero's own ranking. So what are you talking about? and my ranking wasn't order, each tier chracter was randomly put, it wasn't ordered from best to worst in that tier. A don't care about label, I care about skill. A casual could be better then competitive player. oNLY THING that makes a competitive player is if they attend locals.

lol, jokes on you I'm actually one of those nesses. He's my third main.
Idk what you're talking about being 5 years old, setting up BA is a good way to see who's better then who. Can't claim someone's a good fighter but are too chicken to want to catch some hands after school in the woods complainging you need a boxing ring to fight properly.
The people who are most admant about saying online dosen't matter at all are the type of people who go to spectate other prop players, think they are good because they were around pro players....then go online and get BODIED and say "LAG...oh my gosh....GSP IS STUPID (it kinda is though).... DOSEN'T matter!". Mr. King Deddee over here is setting up an arena. Come join the fray if you have the balls.

And point is, I'm credibly enough to dissagree with zero because i've seen all of the players play. Wether online or offline.

Attending locals doesn’t always make someone an automatic high level player, fundamentals do. If you go to locals but you still do the same move over and over again while also rarely capitalizing on the opponent that still makes you a lesser player than a player with good fundamentals that don’t go to locals. Locals are just good for gaining good traction and for maybe getting better tournament seedings.

I mean I just wanted to make an arena for fun and honestly you don’t even have to be good at the game to criticize another’s playstyle as sport coaches don’t always make the best sport players. I mean if this was the case then Izaw would be objectively the best smash ultimate player in the world no doubt. Also maining falcon has nothing to do with credibility, falcon mains are pretty cool as they play a good but not meta op character that’s stylish and pure fundamentals based with nice tight confirms as well. Idk what’s with the main bias.

 

[J.I.L]

Whoosh.

At least it's a good indicator of whose posts I should ignore by default in this subforum. Guess I at least got something out of that, thanks for proving my point though.

For future reference, don't start your rebuttals off with what was practically an ad hominem attack (who I main has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand in any fashion and I can see it in no other way than an attempt to take a stab at me, and given the tone of your posts, I'd say I'm right on the money) only to lead into a long unorganized post that literally ignores pretty much everything stated here. You're the one who came in here and completely derailed the thread with your netplay tier list, don't act so surprised this is the response.

I also highly suggest you look into looking up what input lag means, because it seems to truly just go right over your head, I can come to no other conclusion based off the tone of your posts. Input lag by itself is a reason online play is worthless inside of a competitive discussion. Literally worthless.

Ignoring people who dissagree with you....Nice. I bet you're the type of person who blocks people online if you don't like their playstyle. my tier list was in response to zero tier list which is the focus of the thread. You all derailed it by attacking my skill level and how I'm not qualified to give my opinions.

FruitLoop Oh.... locals and tounramanets are differnt things? I've never gone to any offcial tournement or even real local. The only thing of proximation was my college had a smash club where they'd host tounreys every week. I never won them, but i'd get decently far. It'd usually go where I sweep a bunch of people, then just get bodied by this one dude.

Good point on the sport point. does smash even have coaches anything like that? i'm pretty sure each player takes care of himself.

Lol, captain falcons are a joke. Hence why I rate them as C-class average joe-smo character. Anytime I play them, I don't have much fear of them because they are easy to camp and play good defense against. And easy to hit as well.

 

[FruitLoop]

Ignoring people who dissagree with you....Nice. my tier list was in response to zero tier list which is the focus of the thread. You all derailed it by attacking my skill level and how I'm not qualified to give my opinions.

FruitLoop Oh.... locals and tounramanets are differnt things? I've never gone to any offcial tournement or even real local. The only thing of proximation was my college had a smash club where they'd host tounreys every week. I never won them, but i'd get decently far. It'd usually go where I sweep a bunch of people, then just get bodied by this one dude.

Good point on the sport point. does smash even have coaches anything like that? i'm pretty sure each player takes care of himself.

Lol, captain falcons are a joke. Hence why I rate them as C-class average joe-smo character. Anytime I play them, I don't have much fear of them because they are easy to camp and play good defense against. And easy to hit as well.

I mean the smash factory discord has official coaches for the whole smashcords community which I think is smash’s biggest series of discord community with a coach for each char, ik I’m the ddd coach though. Most players are kind of their own coaches but sparring partners also work too to point out mistakes.

Locals ARE tournaments, however tournaments have a varying degree of difficulty in doing well in and locals tend to be on the lower end of the scale, but going to locals even if you are a top level player is important either way.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, uhmm, hello, this thread is about ZeRo's tier list...
Based off of offline tournament-level play.

If your response isn't within that paradigm, it's offtopic / spam.

 

[Zinith]

That placement of Yoshi is too low even assuming the worst interpretations of his meta. What does ZeRo not see in him?

 

[J.I.L]

That placement of Yoshi is too low even assuming the worst interpretations of his meta. What does ZeRo not see in him?

Yoshi isn’t that good, man. I even think zero overrated him. He has good plothera or kill moves, smash attacks. Down B and egg poop on the ledge plus deadly Arielle... AND this egg role..... even with all of that said... he’s only B tier to me. It’s pretty easy to avoid his attacks since he has to jump far into the air so it’s easy to just run below him for spacing. Plus he has a decent hit box. Plus his jump are very linair and his attacks are stiragjt forward and solid to punish. His projectile can be a avoided and it’s pretty easy to camp a Yoshi. My win rates against Yoshi are pretty high. He’s definitely flawed. Yoshi is a B tier character IMO. He has A tier like offense, but like c/d tier defense.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think he's actually underrated in Zer'os tierlist and he is already at the top of high-tier.
Lagless aerials when landing (laggiest is dAir with 14 frames, uAir is frame 8), lagless startup on all other moves, sour-spot combo game is no joke, average recovery, 4th best air speed, 12th best run speed. I can't see him anywhere below top 5 in all honesty. With lagless I mean: everything is frame 10 or faster
Chrom's a bit worse but he's also up there.

I get the joke doesn’t quite work anymore now that Roy is actually good.....

 

[Lacrimosa]

I get the joke doesn’t quite work anymore now that Roy is actually good.....

Lol, didn't even notice the joke but it makes sense.

Anyway, a skilled Roy can beat any Joker (and this isn't even that sarcastic this time) :3.

 

[DelugeFGC]

According to a specific tier list, the joke should now be changed to a skilled Fox can beat any Roy, apparently.

Regardless, I've said all I can say in regards to the tier list, which are:

Captain Falcon's placement makes me sad.

Captain Falcon's placement isn't high enough.

Captain Falcon is too low.

Captain Falcon is high tier.

Captain Falcon...

Bias is a myth.

 

[Gleam]

Online puts too much emphasis upon a "fake" mentality. It produces fake results, as in, results that might work online, wouldn't work in the real world. For example, it's very easy to get off one of Ganon's smashes after a roll from Side-B. It's works nearly 100% of the time, but in an actual game, characters have a much better opportunity to shield, parry and punish Ganondorf for such a thing.

But when you play online, you get caught up in it. I mean if something works, it works but you keep doing it, never realizing that you're not getting better. You're not improving one bit. The only thing you're doing is manipulating a faulty system. The game lies to you when it comes to Online. It gives this false reassurance that if you do this, you will win.

If you spam PK Fire, you will win.

If you Wizard Foot immediately at the start of a match, you will win.

One can argue this is something that plagues Zero to a degree. Since he's entering less and less tournaments and remaining more on the side and plays more online, he may get this same wrong ideology too, ironically.

According to a specific tier list, the joke should now be changed to a skilled Fox can beat any Roy, apparently.

Regardless, I've said all I can say in regards to the tier list, which are:

Captain Falcon's placement makes me sad.

Captain Falcon's placement isn't high enough.

Captain Falcon is too low.

Captain Falcon is high tier.

Captain Falcon...

Bias is a myth.

After Marss' performance, Captain Falcon is probably going to jump up a dozen or so spots on Zero's list. But that does lead to another issue. Regardless of whether it's right or not, Zero seems to put a lot of emphasis on a single player doing well. Captain Falcon will probably rise on his list but it won't be because of Falcon's capabilities.

It'll be because Marass kicked a** that one time. The same way Nairo kicked a** that one time with Ganon.

I don't think Zero puts enough thought into "why" a match happened, instead using it as a point to make. If Zero does bring up Captain Falcon because of Marss, he should really evaluate the match itself. He should do the same with Nairo vs Light or MKLeo vs Anyone. He might start noticing that these matches aren't necessarily won by the character but by the mental state of the players.

This is something I believe is what directly effected Nairo vs Light. Light admitted he was shook against Ganondorf and made several mistakes. Did that make Ganondorf suddenly good? Or did that mean Nairo was able put the pressure on an opponent who was not as mentally capable as he should've been?

 

[Diddy Kong]

ZeRo knows what he’s doing what hes doing, probably. He was always playing the game on regular VS Mode with other pro players before all this YouTube online stuff. Remember he also plays Diddy most of the time, who’s probably suffering the most out of the online lag because of his play style, I myself can attest this. He wouldn’t have ranked Diddy as a High Tier if he was playing online alone. He would know as one off the best what playing online alone does to his reputation as one of the best Smash 4 players, maybe the best. So yes some things are questionable but I see nothing downright weird except for Isabelle being so high.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Probably a good way too see how ZeRo's tierlists are made and that seems to be very selective.
In this case, it's dyr winning a 40 entrants tournament (a local?) against Epic_Gabriel and Blank. I don't know this scene, though.
Now, surely these names are known but 40 people isn't really big.
Tournament in question:

https://smash.gg/tournament/mellow-smash-ultimate-18/events/mellow-smash-ultimate-17/overview
I don't know about this. It's pretty selective and on a character that he surely is hyped about. But then, there are other players that win such small tournaments with their characters that aren't necessarily perceived as high-tiers.
Anyway, given the circumstances, I'd be cautious when he talks about certain characters.