Zero Suit Video Thread and Analysis

[Tobi_Whatever]

Played like trash at last weeks tournament but still managed 4th of 40+ people. Got taken out R2 winners but had a fun ZSS ditto in my first set of losers. You can tell from the plentiful rolls and smashes (meant to be ftilt half the time) that I was on tilt but I still managed a 6 set win streak through losers. I'll post the other matches on stream if they get uploaded too.

And that's why I have my c stick set to attack, I would end up doing smashes 80% of the time without it lol

 

[Kite0692]

Grand finals set X_X

Critique me plz

Rest of the matches here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz4p2K8NtZCqCknGmRYN5ZQ

 

[Muffin!]

Hey all. I would really appreciate some feedback. Here are two quick 3 minute videos.

First is against Vex who I played on MVG's stream. He 3 stocked me the first game but I unfortunately didn't save that gem:

Second is a random FG fox:

I'm not very good, but I'm in a huge slump lately that I can't seem to get out of. I play a lot on anther's and I just seem to be falling like a rock in the rankings. I solicit advice on there as well but all I ever get is unhelpful stuff like "nair is a really good move" and "try using bair to kill."
Some things I know I need to work on:

• I backroll, a lot. Not sure what I should be replacing it with though.
• I miss a lot of punishes. A lot of this is just my lack of precision with my inputs.
• I dash attack too much
• I'm not sure about this last point, but I think I spend too much time boxing. Once I get in I have a bad habit of staying rooting and throwing out tilts, jabs, or ff nairs. I'm not sure if I should avoid boxing as ZSS or if I just need to get better at it.
• I'm not very good at edge guarding
• I'm really bad in the disadvantaged state. I tend to get juggled a lot and struggle to return to stage and reset neutral.
• My neutral game is pretty bad, but I'm not sure how to improve it.

I've studied that character a lot, so I know all the combos. Not all of them are incorporated into my game yet though as I figure my time is better spent working on my awful neutral game.

 

[Nicole]

A pools seeding match from E2C17 in Chicago vs Dom
First time playing a Fox ⊙﹏⊙

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4wzdSKiXmo

 

[Equin0x]

Hey, guys. I'm a rookie ZSS from the Chicago scene that doesn't get on stream much, so I haven't gotten much good footage to share. I'm not particularly proud of this showing, but this is a set against a top 3 player in our scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi3Kkb_TfQo (GreenBeast Vs. Equin0x )

I could not figure out how to deal with his needle camping on Battlefield. What do you guys normally do in that situation? Any other critiques are much appeciated as well.

EDIT: I have some more sets to share with you all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7nlVVQMJeE (Dan Vs. Equin0x )

Please ignore my still very fraudulent Meta Knight and critique my fradulent ZSS instead. This is against our #10 PR player and before I even caught on to what he was doing to me my two stocks were gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBS-9gnN1dg (JJROCKETS Vs. Equin0x )

This is the #3 player on our PR and I don't feel too bad about how I did. I played another set with him at the previous tournament we both attended and I dominated him, so I guess I wasn't ready for his adjustment. I look forward to seeing how the third one goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm8DrCjVPe4 (Sage Vs. Equin0x )

I think this guy and I have a kind of rivalry going on. He knocked me out of my first tournament in a super close set and ever since our sets have been super hype. This was the most intense set I've had in a looong time. (He's also around #15 on our PR.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9exJOLz_PwA (Shevy Vs. Equin0x )

Our scene is ripe with Marios. He's not as high on the PR as Dan right now, but I think he's around top 20. The salt was real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esFgBRNDzBA (Greenbeast / Vs. Equin0x /)

EDIT 2: @ M Muffin!

Spoiler

Your set against Vex was a little... expanding. There were a lot of missed opportunities and poor choices, especially considering your opponent's character. Against slow hitters like DK, Ganon, or Dedede, anything unsafe is usually unnecessary. Such large, slow moving hurtboxes are easy wins for a good Zero Suit Suit. She can zone them out with relative ease using safely spaced Zair, Paralyzer Shots, and autocancelled Nairs and Bairs, which you seemed to be doing well at the beginning. However, you used Flip Jump as a panic option quite a bit, which is also unnecessary due to our vastly superior mobility You also challenged landing DK, which you didn't need to do. ZSS' Usmash is a great tool to catch landings for characters that don't have fast horizontal mobility options int he air. Heavies are also extremely easy to combo with things that would usually be situational against other characters. For example, a back throw > Flip Jump Kick Spike would usually be a stock against a character with vertical recovery as bad as DK's, and it works from around 25-60% if they DI away for Down-throw. Even if they DI away for Dthrow, the Up > ... > Boost Kick combo is true for an unusually long time (wouldve been good around 2:45). Also true, even with correct DI, is Dthrow > SH Boost Kick, which makes for an easy stock if you land a Dthrow close to and facing a ledge, up until around 80%. I noticed a few Utilts oos on Vex in situations that should've been a Boost Kick (About 1:00 and about 1:45)

Something I noticed that he exploited was you always recovering high(ish?) with Flip Jump. It's a very good option, but, as with any, if you do it too regularly it will get punished. Tethering to recover low or simply Boost Kicking to the ledge are both great options as well. Another optiont hat he punished was landing with Dair. This is useful only in very specific situations. I try to only use Dair to counter aerial overextensions from my opponent, or to land when I would land far away from an opponent that covers landings very well. Again, overuse will get punished hard. It's probably one our most punishable moves.

As I said, you seemed pretty good at the neutral in the beginning, but once you lost the lead you kind of fell apart. You went for a lot of unsafe options like misspaced Paralyzer Shot and Fair (you know when I'm talking about). If he sitting high on the platform, let him sit. Pressure with SAFE spaced moves. Usmash, Zair, etc. He can't sit in shield forever. You also dropped a lot of opportunities like a landed uncharged Paralyzer Shot, but instead of grabbing and Uair > ... > Boost Kicking you Ftilted. Stuff like that. Also, don't be afraid to go offstage. You have the recovery to make it safe, and DK is very vulnerable.

Vs. FG Fox

I was in the middle of a big write up and then my progress got erased so TL;DR safe stuff only because of his speed, comboes are unique on Fox due to his fall speed and light weight. Flip Jump away from dangerous aerial situations, don't Dair by habit.

 

[pichuthedk]

Color meanings
Red = Bad/Your crazy/This happened because
Orange= Not so bad but not entirely good either
Yellow= Something to consider/ an opportunity you missed
Light Blue= Kinda curious about this and it wasn't a bad thing
Green= Let me go change my pants that was sexy <3/Good job
*currently finished
Stark
Muffin!
Nicole
I am going to start at the top of this page and go through quite a few of these vids.

@ Kite0692
Stark
your use of downsmash is inconsistent, things like your first downsmash after getting a small hit right before he was gonna hit the ground was good but then you got into a habit of trying to charge then when he was med-high above you which is not safe. Downsmash uses should be deliberate to force something or because you know something is coming for example people who love to roll behind you every chance they get = Pivot downsmash.

It was good you gave yourself more more space for using the paralyzer but Falcon should be fast enough to not really care about it ,meanwhile if you charge it he's a rush down type so it's risky to charge unless you want to trap a landing.
Try not to be thirsty with rising upair agaisnt fast fallers especailly when you are a high % it puts you in a bad spot a lot. After losing that stock falcon went full aggro on you and forced you to play scared. I know it was scary that he took the lead back with 2 strings but you were no where near kill % so you could have played a bit more boldly and not let him bully you with things like tilts and jabs since he wanted to be up in your grill.

Muffin!
Your beginning neutral game was really good the single up air boost kick was sexy despite the fact that I feel like you could have gotten 1 more or something (Safe hits are A okay in my book anyways), It seems like it fell off around the time you foostooled his attack off the platform. I am not sure if you were just caught off guard by the sudden "Team Rocket's blasting off again'' jump but I slowed it down and it looked like you only used the footstool which means you did not use your DJ and paid for it by eating DK's up air.
0:37 secs you got a fully charged paralyzer -> zair -> grab which was nice but since it's DK and it was fully charged you could have probably walked/foxtrot up to him and charge downsmash(spacing dependent) for when he was going to be released which in turn would net you a grab anyways or any other combo starter for that matter (that's something I need to be more mindful of as well).

The dair was crazy your lucky he didn't Downsmash your butt and just grabbed it ;p. Now 2 things 1:28 he went off the ledge and dropped down to up b you absolutely knew he needed to regrab (with no invincibility) it and was going to take 2 years to do so. at that % you could have simply down b towards the ledge and he would have plummeted upon regrabbing (it also got you killed now that I hit play again D; ). The second thing (I needed to see you do it a few times) you look like your suffering from a common case of the Ryoko "I think I can I think I can" In terms of trying to challenge people from below with your upair (when they are so high up) believing that if you get there fast enough they will be hit and you will not. Stop it you are giving them far to much space when you try to challenge from below like that, It you got spiked back down by DK like 2-3 times it's not worth it especially vs the characters that deal way to much % off a spike. Give them less time to react and you will land more surprise up airs.

The vengeance you came back with after dying to the uptilt made you bloodthirsty to the point where you played right into DK's hand ,getting killed again by his bs up throw up air . This stage was working against you because you were fighting in unfavorable situations repeatedly, While I know some of it could be input error's and all the like you need to remember that most characters are food to us via our juggles, Another thing would be that when you are pressured and are the only being juggled you have get out of jail free cards . Like just flip jumping away from them or off stage so you can tether which is a lot safer then landing near the opponent.
Orgasmic shielded downsmash-> boost kick!

The ending was unfortunate you made way to many mistakes that could have resulted in good things for you which most likely was the heat of the moment flubs and the fact that you were so far behind. You do alot of good things though you need to try and get more of the nair's -> flip jump spikes. since you had him at mid %s a lot and that prevents him from getting ridiculous rage setups later.

• I backroll, a lot. Not sure what I should be replacing it with though.
• F-Roll is superior to backroll so if you really can't get out of the habit fully then at least minimize the risk until you fix it by pivoting before you roll so it's the faster -F-roll
• I miss a lot of punishes. A lot of this is just my lack of precision with my inputs.
• Go into multiman stadium and practice the 100 man and only use 1 move at at time until you go through all the moves you miss (the mii's will be in all sorts of positions so you can practice hitting your bair 100x in more then 1 way increasing it's potency)
• I dash attack too much
• Better then grabbing... But try power walking instead of dashing so you can tilt people's shields
• I'm not sure about this last point, but I think I spend too much time boxing. Once I get in I have a bad habit of staying rooting and throwing out tilts, jabs, or ff nairs. I'm not sure if I should avoid boxing as ZSS or if I just need to get better at it.
• Presurring people with tilts and jab is ok but you have to remember you are not everyone else you can't say "el oh el I jab your shield now I grab you kay?" you literally can only jab /tilt unless you want to do some cray cray stuff like charge downsmash when you are behind someone shielding/Nairo mix up grab attempts.
• I'm not very good at edge guarding
• You merely need more combat experience before you get good at that because Zss has literally like 3-4 things for that and it's based on all kinds of circumstances. If you really need work then try something simple like letting them grab the ledge and time the edge trump back airs are easier to get from edge trumps then run off bairs or flip jump kicks
• I'm really bad in the disadvantaged state. I tend to get juggled a lot and struggle to return to stage and reset neutral.
• work on utilizing your escape options like flip jump/footstool and stop dairing when they can get to you quickly it's alot easier to dair once you flip jumped away to gain some distance.
• My neutral game is pretty bad, but I'm not sure how to improve it.
• The Life of every Zss that isn't among the Zss god's if you can't deal with the neutral then you best work on getting that lead from the start and playing footsies and keep away forcing them to make mistakes for you to capitalize on.

 

[Raethien]

Since i didnt find a thread for videos~

This is a figght at one of my weeklies.
After I watched it again, I felt like I could do better. (as Always)
I know i need to work on b reversals.
Any tips people can give me?

 

[Lloyyd]

Stop using down air. Just stop that. Don't use sideb that much on the ground or in air, better just do it with Z (espacially for spacing the opponent).

The first thing I saw was you used upair after your firstgrab at 0%, fair is an better option here.

Also train the reverse jump backair, you almost just never did that. Backair is one of zss strongest and most reliable move.

Try to learn more safe grab setups (this can be combined with the tether usage for spacing)

 

[pichuthedk]

separate post because @ Nicole is special

G1
You do really well in dealing with fox's speed and your bread and butter confirms is perfect (nair to grabs , B-throw at the right %s to flip jump spike ect).

I am not really good at this MU any more since the horrible memories of the jab lock he used to have, I feel like your being a tad risky by B-reversing paralyzers towards him because fox is so god damn fast on the ground that dash grabs to his usual combo BS is easier when you are stuck in that animation.

You did really well avoiding losing that 1st stock (sexy dair stall to Bair I love doing that with it and other moves as well ) There was actually an unfortunate thing I noticed because I do what you did a lot in the MU as well. Every time he was recovering and you charged paralyzer he grabbed the ledge but the one time you decided not to he side b'd on stage, It might be more beneficial to do that and force him to reflect it or grab the ledge so that you can attempt to punish his get up option this also gives you more breathing room while keeping them pressured.

Jab-> boost kick -> up air -> flair ? I approve there was very little risk for you there and you got away with it at 0% nice work (sucks that he got out though I mean he's Fox FFS)

#3:30 seconds exactly what I said earlier happened you delivered yourself to Fox on a silver platter for him to do that grab combo on you. After that combo Fox just straight up started bullying you like everyone does once we've lost the lead from a string like that.

4:17 very risky but well use of the flip jump kick Fox didn't know that you'd be able to act before hitting the ground and got caught off guard, Don't feel bad about the RIP grab attempt it happens to us all =[.
He had you going for a bit until you converted a ledge jump -> a bair for a kill with that rage ,the courage you have in the dark times is really good a fair number of others would have faltered and let the fear control them.

WOW that ending I can't believe right there dead zone grab again, One thing I'll tell you though is that when you got that downsmash at 0% you could have gotten like 1 or 2 more on him by charging and walking (being honest I would have more than likely forgotten because of my % and the heat of the moment but you could have had slowed the pace of the game down by keeping him disabled for a certain short amount of time)

G2
That was a really interesting opening to match because no one would really expect the paralyzer when you've run off the platform.
The smaller stage gave you a lot of advantages in terms of being able to chase Fox more effectively his speed means little if he has no where to go. Very nice Boost kick OoS on his uptilt (never considered that myself), That downsmash flip jump kick through the platform was orgasmic he was at the right % for death and at first i thought you'd spike but it was clearly not needed =).

You have really good mobility around the platforms and the only thing that could make you even faster would be flip jump kick edge cancels, Also please stop the orgasmic boost kicks OoS I'm running out of pants to change into xD, I am starting to think we should be punishing all multi-hit jabbers with JC boost kick out of shield.

I know you wanted that grab but it wasn't worth it even though you were styling on Fox for his past 2 stocks XD, Just think about the 3 stock and not the potential JV 3 stock ;p.
at 8:20 when you missed a flip jump kick fox went to reflector -> grab the ledge as you tether'd , If you reeled in faster you could have trumped him and just Bair'd him, Seeing as he got boost kicked again I guess it does not matter though ha ha.

G3
the start seemed like a series of unfortunate event's like that down smash, up air, up air ->2nd downsmash you tried to get . You got a tether cancel -> flip jump kick which was well worth the risk, I am not sure if he didn't expect it but I've gotten something similar before because I thought they wouldn't expect it.
12:27 when fox side B'd onto the stage you got a paralyzer and went for the safe grab is there a reason you didn't try to get a downsmash charged or uncharged Or a boost kick for that matter? I understand he's a fast faller so that may have influenced it quite a bit, Just curious because maybe he'd anticipate the grab and spot dodge out of fear ;p.

Oh I see you Nicole with that Trixy dair through the bf platform well played these are the kinds of mixups that catch people off guard and force them to be honest vs Zss XD.

At 13:20 when you boost kicked the ledge to grab it fox was charging his down smash I am fairly certain that if you had aimed the boost kick to slide up the slope from underneath you would have launched Fox slightly giving you a free recovery/upair depending on circumstances. Granted again you murdered him seconds later your doing really well on closing up their stocks.


That ending was really unfortunate you did extremely well you just need to avoid those "panic/anticipated approach" grabs you're throwing out there at Danger Zone %s, I think you lost like 4 stocks EXCLUDING G1 and those BS dead zone grabs.
Try to learn/incorporate flip jump edge cancels into your game it's a useful tool in getting away from people to reset , Chasing people of stage or merely stalling for time/to think of how to approach the situation.

You land more boost kick out of shield then someone I know who's is like 3x better then me at Zss Imo. Your Breverse paralyzer game was good you don't over use it like I do, It was just a bad MU where they have far to much mobility to punish you or something like Fox's upsmash to punish you for being risky.
Honestly you probably noticed some of the mistakes you made and just need to be more mindful next time.

I am curious what did you place at that tourney BTW?

So that was like an hour and a half of Smash replays for me Going to AFK for a year or 2 i'll come back and do some more later.

 

[Equin0x]

@ Nicole
You mentioned that it was your first time playing a Fox, and it showed at the beginning of a match. Fox is a hard MU for a player of any character to learn on the spot. As I critiqued Muffin!, options with a lot of endlag (like Dair or Flip Jump Kick) or poor spacing are very much to be avoided. Fox has the speed to come in and punish hard. Luckily you weren’t punished too hard for those grabs at the beginning of the match, but it’s something to keep in mind. Immediately after those you landed a Nair > Grab, which is great. Raw grabs are to be avoided, but the setups are very landable. Paralyzer Shot also is rather tabuu in this MU unless It’s used as part of an edgeguard. This is because Fox’s speed enables him to punish the shot *almost* on reaction at mid-far distances and his Reflector enables him to punish it at close distances. You seem to have caught on to this by the end of the game, however.



Oml that combo at ~4:40 I’m sorry that was too crisp

The counterpick of Battlefield really worked in your favor! The combination of that comfort pick and the experience from game 1 helped you clearly. Pichuthedk said you were jump cancelling Boost Kick. Is that true? I guess it would make sense with tap jump but I’d never heard of that until now, but I think I might have to try to incorporate that into my play. Nothing really for me to critique except for again raw grabs and Dairs.

As I mentioned to Muffin!, every character’s combo games are changed by Fox’s fall speed and weight. I saw some results of that at your first point of momentum but oml if that Dsmash > Uair > falling Uair > Dsmash had landed that would’ve been hype. Overall good play, but you seemed to lose composure and throw out panic options that I like to throw out when I panic: Flip Jump, Dash Attack, full Paralyzer Shot, etc. Zair would go on that list but it’s normally a good option. It’s not on Fox because of his short height and blistering speed though.

Great ZSS though! I’m sad I couldn’t meet another local-ish ZSS, but I hope I can at a later point!

Also @ pichuthedk notice ME, senpai! I called out for the critiquing! ;-;
Seriosuly though, great write-ups! I've never seen anything quite like the color coding system and thy were fun to read, even if they weren't for me. Just don't wait too long to watch mine! DX

 

[Muffin!]

This feedback is gold. Huge shout outs to the people who took time to comment. This gave me a lot of things to work on and new ideas for practicing. Really appreciate it!

 

[pichuthedk]

@ Nicole
You mentioned that it was your first time playing a Fox, and it showed at the beginning of a match. Fox is a hard MU for a player of any character to learn on the spot. As I critiqued Muffin!, options with a lot of endlag (like Dair or Flip Jump Kick) or poor spacing are very much to be avoided. Fox has the speed to come in and punish hard. Luckily you weren’t punished too hard for those grabs at the beginning of the match, but it’s something to keep in mind. Immediately after those you landed a Nair > Grab, which is great. Raw grabs are to be avoided, but the setups are very landable. Paralyzer Shot also is rather tabuu in this MU unless It’s used as part of an edgeguard. This is because Fox’s speed enables him to punish the shot *almost* on reaction at mid-far distances and his Reflector enables him to punish it at close distances. You seem to have caught on to this by the end of the game, however.



Oml that combo at ~4:40 I’m sorry that was too crisp

The counterpick of Battlefield really worked in your favor! The combination of that comfort pick and the experience from game 1 helped you clearly. Pichuthedk said you were jump cancelling Boost Kick. Is that true? I guess it would make sense with tap jump but I’d never heard of that until now, but I think I might have to try to incorporate that into my play. Nothing really for me to critique except for again raw grabs and Dairs.

As I mentioned to Muffin!, every character’s combo games are changed by Fox’s fall speed and weight. I saw some results of that at your first point of momentum but oml if that Dsmash > Uair > falling Uair > Dsmash had landed that would’ve been hype. Overall good play, but you seemed to lose composure and throw out panic options that I like to throw out when I panic: Flip Jump, Dash Attack, full Paralyzer Shot, etc. Zair would go on that list but it’s normally a good option. It’s not on Fox because of his short height and blistering speed though.

Great ZSS though! I’m sad I couldn’t meet another local-ish ZSS, but I hope I can at a later point!

Also @ pichuthedk notice ME, senpai! I called out for the critiquing! ;-;
Seriosuly though, great write-ups! I've never seen anything quite like the color coding system and thy were fun to read, even if they weren't for me. Just don't wait too long to watch mine! DX

I am going to @ Equin0x I juse ended up getting distracted yesterday but ended up playing a few hours of smash with the tournament mode and then some fox wanted to face a zSS Ina facebook group.

Not sure if WiFi and he was just learning the Mu but I play better then I remember when I take it seriously.

I literally got @Tuen 's hype kick vs on this fox the frame his ledge invincibility wore off and I regret not saving the replay.

I will watch a few of your matches but the best one I can critique is Rosa. I am more comfortable in that despite not playing it forever.

My Sheik I'd kinda ehh. .. haven't facedar a non moron Sheik In a while.

@ Equin0x

G1
From what I see your playing well with being aggressive vs them but your letting luma of the hook to much, As well as grabbing at the wrong time.

1:15 Rosa was hit off stage with DA and clearly had to get back on luma on the other hand wasn't hit off stage, this was a point in the match early where you could have just killd luma if not with another DA something like side b especially with how you were spaced.

2:12 luma was dead so you were perfectly safe in attempting the up air x2 -> up b combo it's important to be weary of that in this MU. Especially with the% you were at.

2:35 you land a charged paralyzer on luma which would have made it an excellent time to again pick on Luma since he is so crucial to Rosalinas game, Things you could have done would be walk/foxtrot up to luma and down smash( the far hit box so that luma doesn't get launched when it wears off this lets you infinite luma and refresh your moves at the same time) , SH wavebounce or well spaced side b (so you pushed luma forward unless you want to minimize risk and hit with the explosion hitbox) Or charge another paralyzer.

2:40 sexy spike that was a beautiful read even if you just felt like it might have been dangerous to tether there (it happens all the time that premonition of certain death).

G2
4:50 you got away with an unsafe nair on shield and rosa tried to grab you 2 years after the fact leaving herself open why did you not just FF nair her again there instead of charging paralyzer? you gave her time to realize and shield it. Granted you murdered her with a nice bair 7 seconds later.

5:00 I do the exact same thing like you and throw out those edge cancel down b's but if you want to do it just to keep yourself nimble do so in a way that doesn't deliver your self to the opponent (I.E edge cancel the ledge) I'm surprised you got away with that small of a punish.

5:35 that zair was extremely dangerous and cost you there is a way to throw them out mercilessly inorder to lock down rosalina but it honestly was just bad luck. Zair works for you if rosalina keeps trying to jump at you and utilize luma as a follow up so it would got like this.
1.Rosa jumps and delays a nair or something at you so that luma comes in after
2.you jump and zair hitting both of them
3 .rosalina gets knocked back
4. Luma just floats in place there after flinching from the zair hit

6:30 my god you cray cray ( I would do it as well) you are going to have to polish up those edge cancels because If that was me and I had failed that I would have gotten the luma upsmash for sure losing my stock.


the rest of G2 was just a can of spaghetti on both your parts but it was a last hit situation so It's understandable I am not sure if the rosa was Smash DI'ing to get out of that or if it was just you miss spacing the Up b's , You need to figure out another way to close if there are continued boost kick escapes it puts you in far to much danger and a small note.

When you implanted Rosa in the ground and killed luma she didn't look like she mashed at all really that was the perfect time to land beside her ->pivot ->down smash -> fsmash ,down b kick or any other finisher hell with your rage upsmash would have been good to.

G3

Again perfect b-throw spike was nice the rage you had and rosa's % lead to an easy kill to take the lead with her first stock.

9:50 Very unfortunate SD but it happend because you were scared IMO there was probably only one other way you could potentially use down b safely in that situation .That would have been to drop down slightly below the ledge and then flip jump wall jump back to the ledge it would have been the first ledge grab giving you the invincibility.

10:30 very good that is an important part of the MU that most players are not used to (still?)
shielding when ever you get just rosa with a hit or throw keeps you from getting the surprise F U luma revenge hits (you can be subject to mind games from the more experienced Rosa's later on if your not careful though).

11:07 A+ being weary of luma is not something many people remember in the heat of battle I am sure you would have gotten upsmashed and killed if you were reckless, However the upsmash was not entirely the best choice maybe something like max ranged side b or dash attack could have sufficed while not letting you commit that much.

Here are a few special notes about the MU that could possibly help you, First here is a replay of me and my Rival who mains Rosa and this was one of the better games I've done vs them but at the same time he's never beaten me in bracket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCo-tBxS6QU

anyways things to note.
1. Side B is an infinite on luma and hits him even if shielding (obviously be cautious of rosalina shielding it)
-so say you hit her off stage to the right with and luma is on your left you can side b -> -sh side b x infinity until Rosalina is back in the picture.

2. Luma shot loses to all paralyzers unless it's charged at which point charged paralyzer stops it or just halts him momentarily before he continues on (I honestly forgot -_-0)

3. Downsmash can infinite luma because of the knockback resistance he has when you hit with the weak knockback hitbox (max range)
(2.3)combo charged paralyzer on luma shots ->foxtrotting over gives you about 2 downsmashes out of foxtrot until rosalina runs at you to use her obnoxious dash attack or something. Just be safe and ready to react /change it up side b could be substituted if you are expecting the dash attack.

4. Anytime you grab rosalina you need to know where you are throwing her immediately and generally need to shield after.

5. Treat Rosa like a boss encounter If Luma is up Dispatch , If luma is down try to check clock upon death sound quickly -> DPS rosalina rinse and repeat.
-I at times will even treat getting dash attacked,upsmashed or grabbed just to kill luma because the MU is so much more manageable without Luma's BS.

6. Don't pick stages like BF if you can avoid it because even though it's our best stage the trade off of being unable to land on platforms a majority of the time is rather annoying.

You played the MU fairly well and I never saw you in any of those "El oh el I am rosa I down air you and you die slowly kay? " situations.

Mix up your aerial DI from flip jump footstools on shield and how you deal with luma the jabs were a great example of you dealing with them but it doesn't always work out when your in melee range.
Lastly remember Luma taking hits extends your hitboxes and could play out in both your advantage and disadvantage.

*ahem*
KILL EFFING LUMA ASAP ERRY DAY OKAY? LUMA IS NOW A METROID KILL HIM

 

[Equin0x]

From what I see your playing well with being aggressive vs them but your letting luma of the hook to much, As well as grabbing at the wrong time.

I admit that I did grab at some pretty bad times, but aside from when they're paralyzed or after Nair/Fair, what would be the right times to grab?

2:12 luma was dead so you were perfectly safe in attempting the up air x2 -> up b combo it's important to be weary of that in this MU. Especially with the% you were at.

But... that's exactly what I tried to do about 5 seconds after I killed Luma. Rosalina just fell out of the Boost Kick (which she does a lot). Should I have skipped the Grab > Dthrow and just gone straight to Uair?

2:35 you land a charged paralyzer on luma which would have made it an excellent time to again pick on Luma since he is so crucial to Rosalinas game, Things you could have done would be walk/foxtrot up to luma and down smash( the far hit box so that luma doesn't get launched when it wears off this lets you infinite luma and refresh your moves at the same time) , SH wavebounce or well spaced side b (so you pushed luma forward unless you want to minimize risk and hit with the explosion hitbox) Or charge another paralyzer.

I'd never thought about using Paralyzer Shot or sour Dsmash in that way. I’ve always wondered what to do in that situation.Thanks for giving me some ideas!

As for the flashy Flip Jump cancels, I was still popping off from the end of game 1, lol. I'll try to keep that in check in the future. The Zair that you mentioned in red was me reading a FH Nair from him, which he does a lot, as I'm sure you noticed. I did get punished pretty hard because my read was a little off, haha.

the rest of G2 was just a can of spaghetti on both your parts but it was a last hit situation so It's understandable I am not sure if the rosa was Smash DI'ing to get out of that or if it was just you miss spacing the Up b's , You need to figure out another way to close if there are continued boost kick escapes it puts you in far to much danger and a small note.

Yeah, I got that "find another way" idea towards the end of the set. It's very possible that the Rosalina was SDIing because he's a lab monster, but I labbed Staircase %s for some characters with a friend and even without SDI Rosalina continuously fell out of it at kill %s, so I believe it's her weight and lack of fall speed.

9:50 Very unfortunate SD but it happend because you were scared IMO there was probably only one other way you could potentially use down b safely in that situation .That would have been to drop down slightly below the ledge and then flip jump wall jump back to the ledge it would have been the first ledge grab giving you the invincibility.

I suppose you could blame it on fear. What I tried to do what NOT B-reverse it and hold back to shorten the length in anticipation of the punish, but I accidentally B-reversed it so rip. That's a pretty ingenius thought about cancelling the tether into a Flip Jump to wall jump into the ledge. I'll have to lab that sometime.

11:07 A+ being weary of luma is not something many people remember in the heat of battle I am sure you would have gotten upsmashed and killed if you were reckless, However the upsmash was not entirely the best choice maybe something like max ranged side b or dash attack could have sufficed while not letting you commit that much.

Tbh I've been screwed over by the Luma stuck to this player in particaular so many times before this that now I'm super weary of it. Looking back on it now, a sweet Plasma Whip might've knocked Luma away and allowed a real punish if I was fast enough.

First here is a replay of me and my Rival who mains Rosa and this was one of the better games I've done vs them but at the same time he's never beaten me in bracket.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCo-tBxS6QU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCo-tBxS6QU

Noticed some things from that booty quality ( XD ) replay. First, I'm not sure how you got two full Boost Kicks to land on him. I can almost never get it to work. Second, you used Plasma Whip a LOT.

anyways things to note.
1. Side B is an infinite on luma and hits him even if shielding (obviously be cautious of rosalina shielding it)
-so say you hit her off stage to the right with and luma is on your left you can side b -> -sh side b x infinity until Rosalina is back in the picture.

Yeah, at the time of this replay I had basically removed Plasma Whip from my game entirely so I hadn't thought of using it on Luma. Recently I've started trying it with different uses so I'll definitely keep that in mind.

I'll also try to place more priority on Luma, haha

Thanks for critiquing even one of my replays. Sorry it took so long for me to reply to it. For some reason I didn't get notified of you tagging me. I wish there were more in-depth critics active. This thread is how I plan to improve in the future.

 

[FEAR977]

Can I get my set vs Ryo critiqued? I made quite a few technical errors game 3, but other than that I think I did fine. Anything will help.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Can I get my set vs Ryo critiqued? I made quite a few technical errors game 3, but other than that I think I did fine. Anything will help.

You went for two super unguaranteed followups at the beginning of the first round. after nAir > uAir > bAir and that uAir > uSpecial. both way too low percentages. Also nAir > bAir in game 3 at 33 against Ike just can't work with sub 100%.
Also don't EVER recover with flip jump to the ledge. Ike has the best on stage edgeguard in the game and we need to be non reactable. Best thing to recover imo is tether since it's super fast and we can change the timing. Ike can just react to both uSpecial and flip jump

 

[Muffin!]

I made this match breakdown from the Nairo MVD set at paragon. Maybe I'll do more if this is helpful to anyone else.

 

[NickRiddle]

I made this match breakdown from the Nairo MVD set at paragon. Maybe I'll do more if this is helpful to anyone else.

... That was actually really good and accurate...

 

[Take 5]

I made this match breakdown from the Nairo MVD set at paragon. Maybe I'll do more if this is helpful to anyone else.

Excellent!

I also thought it was a p-pivot grab at first before I slowed it down to 0.5 speed. Guess that's too flashy even for Nairo XD

 

[pichuthedk]

This post was so messy my god I was tired sorry, anyways I responded via the numbers based on what you posted.

1.The best times to grab are anytime luma won't interrupt your flow , Me personally would probably do it anytime luma is dead or to far away to counter attack. I imagine a good rosa might catch on to your grab game and try to use luma to disrupt it.
My grab game vs rosa tends to be
-grab is they are both stunned
-grab and pummel if luma is infront of rosa so that it hits luma (IE she just tried to use full jab combo and I was shielding and in range to grab)
-grab and b/fthrow to hit luma before she reacts otherwise shield after throw because of random luma smashes

2.NP I kinda made that discovery during the 3ds days


3.DW about it, happens to everyone I just don't want you dying to luma smash because you took 5 % that one time. T.T

4.Mhm yeah that was a crazy situation you did well to just be patient Sometimes it is easy to be more reckless then you usual are vs rosa luma because luma is such an anomaly .



5. There are some Mu's where it might be more risky because of BS moves that hit far under the ledge but on the other side of the spectrum you are stalling another second potentially and you can even hold down so you don't grab the edge and then just boost kick, Just remember it takes practice.

6. Mhm Luma is a real pain in the butt I tend to prioritize him just to make the MU easier even if it requires a pressence of mind on which punishes I am cool with.


7. A) Actually Nick riddle made a video about how to get boost kicks on people and a part of it is based on the spacing , Being honest I just got my 7% chance to read an air dodge and murdered him for it. The spacing was kinda beautiful now that I think about it.
B) Yeah I side b alot because I am a scrub that believes there is still magic in B-reverse side B's and Wave bounced ones...
Aside from the fact that Side b is anti luma regardless of shields is just icing on the cake. Don't follow my example Side b should only be used for Semi spikes on the ledge and potentially max range side pressure there are actually a # of characters that supposedly can't punish a perfectly spaced side b.
I actually stumbled on to a side b Tech that is potentially better then sex...probably.


http://www.twitch.tv/blacktwins13/v/14448221?t=1h28m06s
here is a set vs like the best fox in our region (arguably by results I think?) I hate this MU but anyways I mentioned something about using side B during your skid after running and turning around. This lets you perform a sliding side B which you see at around 1:28:34 or so. When I did this by all right's it should have been an unsafe automatic death side b, However because of the little extra distance I gained from slide the fox miss spaced his up smash.
I lost the set but it was a double 1 stock which I suppose was fine with me (fox said he wasn't ok with it though xD)



8. Yeah the way I see it I'd rather get hit by anything that rosa has before I get hit by anything luma has XD.


Last 2 things.

1. I am sorry I took 2 years to reply A lot of johns involving other games and animes

2. thanks for making me watch that replay I literally forgot about the conversation Atron and I had when I was recording that replay regarding Youtube.
TFW you realize you are the Prophet predicting the future XD

I admit that I did grab at some pretty bad times, but aside from when they're paralyzed or after Nair/Fair, what would be the right times to grab?



But... that's exactly what I tried to do about 5 seconds after I killed Luma. Rosalina just fell out of the Boost Kick (which she does a lot). Should I have skipped the Grab > Dthrow and just gone straight to Uair?




I'd never thought about using Paralyzer Shot or sour Dsmash in that way. I’ve always wondered what to do in that situation.Thanks for giving me some ideas!



As for the flashy Flip Jump cancels, I was still popping off from the end of game 1, lol. I'll try to keep that in check in the future. The Zair that you mentioned in red was me reading a FH Nair from him, which he does a lot, as I'm sure you noticed. I did get punished pretty hard because my read was a little off, haha.




Yeah, I got that "find another way" idea towards the end of the set. It's very possible that the Rosalina was SDIing because he's a lab monster, but I labbed Staircase %s for some characters with a friend and even without SDI Rosalina continuously fell out of it at kill %s, so I believe it's her weight and lack of fall speed.




I suppose you could blame it on fear. What I tried to do what NOT B-reverse it and hold back to shorten the length in anticipation of the punish, but I accidentally B-reversed it so rip. That's a pretty ingenius thought about cancelling the tether into a Flip Jump to wall jump into the ledge. I'll have to lab that sometime.

 

[Mosoball]

I made this match breakdown from the Nairo MVD set at paragon. Maybe I'll do more if this is helpful to anyone else.

That was super good. If you have the time keep doing these, definately helpful

 

[Muffin!]

The last video got a lot of good feedback on the subreddit (MVD even requested I do the whole set!) so I made another one. This time Nairo Dabuz.

Analyzing Rosa on BF is a lot more difficult because so much of the match takes place in the neutral, and more guesswork is involved in breaking down decisions. Making this video did change my view of the matchup somewhat, maybe I'll post an explanation in the matchup thread. I will say a few things though:

• Nairo doesn't beat Dabuz because ZSS wins the Rosa matchup. Nairo clearly has a higher level of precision, consistently makes better decisions, and clearly has better situational awareness. I can obviously only say that about this one match, but given his win record I think it's a safe assumption that this is true generally.
• Dabuz is no scrub though. He's a really intelligent player. While I think he missed a few opportunities because he was a bit too cautious, his setup near the end of the match where he pretended that luma was tethered to him and slyly pushed her out to Nairo was one of the most subtle and smart things I've seen in a smash match. He's also very good at controlling rosa and Luma independently. I have a lot more appreciation for his play now (not that I didn't appreciate it before)
• While ZSS-Diddy seemed to be more about pushing leads and extending combos, Rosa is an entirely different matcuhp. It was all about spacing, baits, and setups for both characters.

 

[tonystarks500]

Hello everyone! I'm a street fighter player who just picked up smash back in February. Being new, I was hoping you guys could give me some feed back on my game play. Some things carry over between games, but this is a different animal. Thank you in advance!

 

[SgtBalanced]

Hello everyone! I'm a street fighter player who just picked up smash back in February. Being new, I was hoping you guys could give me some feed back on my game play. Some things carry over between games, but this is a different animal. Thank you in advance!

More Zair, more safe grabbing -> Down Throw + Up airs. Tons more up airs. More Nairs.
Less Dash attack. Less Side-B. More Boost Kick. More Flip kick. Recover with Side B and Flip Kick. Less unsafe approaches. Cover their approach options with blaster and Zair.

 

[Otterz]

My set from a recent tourney got uploaded and I'd like you guys to take a look. Unfortunately only one set of mine was uploaded so you guys only get to see me getting bodied and not doing ZSS goodness, still good for analyzing though. Look at it as a what not to do I guess.

Otterz vs ATF (Top 8 Losers Side)

I made some flubs, such as the Back Throw in game 2, but it was my first time getting Top 8 at a tournament, woo!
Hope you guys can give me some tips.

 

[Probalo]

I'm pretty new to ZSS, been playing her for a few weeks. I was hoping to get some advice on how I can improve, here's a few games against LaDorian on Anther's Ladder:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s6RAg8GxRQ
Game 2 (I'm blue ZSS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdfxfbREVY8

 

[Funkermonster]

Hello there. Next season in my region, I want to use a different character for a change and I took a look at ZSS. Would like some help and criticsm before it hhappens. I could've gotten videos from Anther's ladder, but I chose FG since I was in a bit of a rush.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i92OJMpu8PE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjImQYl5aG4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYJenMEauE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpH4SW-ze5M

By all means, beat me bloody with criticism and be as harsh as you'd like, honest critique is the best imo as long as you got your reasonings behind it (although it would be great if you note anything I did well on, if I did anything right to start with at least)

 

[Honor]

My set from a recent tourney got uploaded and I'd like you guys to take a look. Unfortunately only one set of mine was uploaded so you guys only get to see me getting bodied and not doing ZSS goodness, still good for analyzing though. Look at it as a what not to do I guess.

Otterz vs ATF (Top 8 Losers Side)

I made some flubs, such as the Back Throw in game 2, but it was my first time getting Top 8 at a tournament, woo!
Hope you guys can give me some tips.

I felt like you didn't shield hardly at all. Also, there were multiple times where you really telegraphed that you were going to grab and Shiek just had to bait it out and then punish.

It seemed like you went on tilt at some point (which I totally sympathize with, I hate it when a Shiek is all over me and I feel like I can't do anything right) and just started fsmashing and grabbing relentlessly.

You lost your last stock at the end by flip kicking as an approach. I have learned the hard way that if your opponent reacts correctly you're flat out screwed.

Anyway, those are my thoughts

 

[MOM Samus]

I hate cheeseball ZSs on For Glory.

 

[Muffin!]

I hate cheeseball ZSs on For Glory.

Damn dude, your RAR game is on point.

 

[Fluggerson]

http://youtu.be/9nHqMQTi-Go

I found 1fow1 or Fow on For Glory and here's the only replay I remembered to save against him. His Lucas is so good ;-;
Some plays were questionable like when I went into that Up Smash. My John was that I already inputted to jump by the time i saw it

Thanks for looking at my video if you do

 

[MOM Samus]

Damn dude, your RAR game is on point.

Lol, I did smirk when that happened.

 

[Nicole]

Thank you guys very much for the critique. I didn't know my match was posted on here lol my public relations representative has the password to my account since I don't have internet and my phone blows and none of the apps work.

I got 17 at that tourney. I get very nervous and fk up all the time because I don't have a lot of confidence and I'll drop combos and just fall apart. I'm 3rd on our local pr so I do ok there but haven't done anything impressive.

 

[pichuthedk]

Thank you guys very much for the critique. I didn't know my match was posted on here lol my public relations representative has the password to my account since I don't have internet and my phone blows and none of the apps work.

I got 17 at that tourney. I get very nervous and fk up all the time because I don't have a lot of confidence and I'll drop combos and just fall apart. I'm 3rd on our local pr so I do ok there but haven't done anything impressive.

Third on a pr is nothing to scoff out I used to be #10 in southern ontario which unfortunately I fell off because I am an inconsistent slightly above mid high lv player.

My most notable thing was probably taking a game off Ally in pools taking 3/6 stocks while everyone was horrible close to j 2 stocked.
Makes me feel better that being my first time ever playing him despite knowing him him in person from all the times he's come to toronto tourneys.

I am #3 in my region close to toronto but unfortunately the scene is leagues behind them atm.

Keep up the good work girl .

Don't believe in yourself believe in the zero suits who believe in you xD.

 

[shadee88]

Thank you guys very much for the critique. I didn't know my match was posted on here lol my public relations representative has the password to my account since I don't have internet and my phone blows and none of the apps work.

I got 17 at that tourney. I get very nervous and fk up all the time because I don't have a lot of confidence and I'll drop combos and just fall apart. I'm 3rd on our local pr so I do ok there but haven't done anything impressive.

On paper ZSS is considered better in SSB4, but she is MUCH harder to master in this game.

Her Paralyzer, does ALOT less hitstun, she has to take more risks to be an effective character, but HIGH REWARD....

 

[GusTurbo]

Here's me against a random Sheik on FG. I know I have a lot of room for improvement. Bonus Nairo-style MLG ending.

 

[Honor]

Lag? Both parties didn't like to shield throughout the whole game and Sheik seemed to spend a lot of time fsmashing needlessly (all symptoms of lag in my exp). I haven't played FG in months and I don't ever foresee going back to it.

 

[GusTurbo]

Lag was definitely a factor. Unfortunately FG is pretty much my only convenient option.

 

[pichuthedk]

So I feel like I am starting to Level up a bit or something I ended up putting my #1 in the region into losers via WF and faced him again in GF.

Here is WF

GF

and the Challonge challonge.com/classroomclash3

Feel free to chirp me as hard as possible so I can improve It wasn't as apparent to me in WF or GF but I feel like I finally got that data for the download suit modifications xD.

 

[Honor]

You my friend... are greedy

 

[Honor]

Seriously though, I felt like you were really fishing most of the time when you approached with Flip Kick. There were times it paid off but for the most part it yielded nothing, or got you punished hard. I watched both matches and felt like he really adjusted towards the end of winners and even more so in grands and you didn't seem to as much. He killed you with up smash like 34.5 times by my count and several of them looked exactly the same.

As a complete aside: WHY LYLAT? Ugg I hate that place.