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Zero Suit Samus Export

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
Joined
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Messages
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Character: Zero Suit Samus :zerosuitsamus:
Current BBR MU Rating: -1
Stages:
-Ban:
-Strike:
-Counterpick:
Lucas Boards MU Rating:
MU Summaries
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
7,591
Location
Colorado
Math Data:

D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 65
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Dthrow Kill: 140s%
Asorbable Projectiles:
--Paralyzer: 10/14
--D-smash: 28/30

[collapse=FAE+J Convo][7/30/2012 3:24:49 AM] Faemau5_5ever: I dont think I have any problems with using Lucas as a character, my playstyle's pretty solid
[7/30/2012 3:24:59 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Most of my troubles come from certain character things
[7/30/2012 3:25:07 AM] John (J): Certain MUs you mean?
[7/30/2012 3:25:11 AM] Faemau5_5ever: yea
[7/30/2012 3:25:19 AM] John (J): Like which in particular may I ask?
[7/30/2012 3:25:28 AM] John (J): I have some odd characters I have trouble fighting.
[7/30/2012 3:25:38 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Well like I have trouble fighting ZSS
[7/30/2012 3:26:02 AM] Faemau5_5ever: I've been playing Bio recently and ZSS has the speed to outrun lucas and always make it to a safe place
[7/30/2012 3:26:06 AM] Faemau5_5ever: So getting in is hard
[7/30/2012 3:26:23 AM] John (J): Yeah, that's a MU you have to look for mistakes and reads in order to do it.
[7/30/2012 3:26:35 AM] John (J): However, because of ZSS' jab she has a good thing for getting us out of her face.
[7/30/2012 3:27:03 AM] John (J): I used to Co-main ZSS so I learned about her and me and NickRiddle's GF are close haha.
[7/30/2012 3:27:11 AM] Faemau5_5ever: ah
[7/30/2012 3:27:20 AM] Faemau5_5ever: I've used her a bit too
[7/30/2012 3:27:24 AM] John (J): But yeah ZSS is a character that you need to watch your step, a wrong move can equal doom.
[7/30/2012 3:27:38 AM] John (J): However, the same can be said for us against her because if she messes up, we can mess with her a bit.
[7/30/2012 3:27:44 AM] John (J): Offstage, we literally own her.
[7/30/2012 3:27:58 AM] John (J): Do not, I repeat, fighting ZSS in the air is out of the question.
[7/30/2012 3:28:09 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah I know
[7/30/2012 3:28:14 AM] Faemau5_5ever: When she's below us you mean?
[7/30/2012 3:28:19 AM] John (J): Mhmm
[7/30/2012 3:28:22 AM] Faemau5_5ever: yeah.
[7/30/2012 3:28:33 AM] John (J): Horizontal, we can go alright unless she is Bairing us
[7/30/2012 3:28:46 AM] John (J): I gotta recheck which has better hitbox, our Fair or her Bair
[7/30/2012 3:28:48 AM] John (J): it's close, I know that.
[7/30/2012 3:28:59 AM] John (J): However, her priority is annoying to deal with.
[7/30/2012 3:29:15 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah it is
[7/30/2012 3:29:34 AM] John (J): If we are below her, we can juggle her for a bit on lower percentages with Uair.
[7/30/2012 3:29:39 AM] John (J): Her Dair is useless
[7/30/2012 3:29:42 AM] John (J): well
[7/30/2012 3:29:47 AM] John (J): not useless, but it's deffo not good
[7/30/2012 3:30:16 AM] John (J): The thing to watch out for is her Dtilt and Utilt because that can get us in the air exactly where she wants us.
[7/30/2012 3:30:53 AM] John (J): Also she has a CG on us but since her grab is terrible, only greedy ZSS' will go for it and that's a great opportunity to punish.
[7/30/2012 3:31:03 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah
[7/30/2012 3:31:11 AM] Faemau5_5ever: She has a guaranteed Dtilt out of Grab though
[7/30/2012 3:31:19 AM] John (J): Mhmm which makes things complicated
[7/30/2012 3:31:28 AM] Faemau5_5ever: So that's usually the safest and best option for her to attempt if she's gonna do that kinda stuff
[7/30/2012 3:31:42 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Like at low %'s it'll rack up damage really fast
[7/30/2012 3:31:56 AM] John (J): That's why you gotta play the keep away game till you rack her up a bit.
[7/30/2012 3:32:11 AM] John (J): The thing with this MU is you have to make her approach you.
[7/30/2012 3:32:43 AM] John (J): Problem is, if she can rack you up before you rack her up, we have a problem in terms of getting the momentum shift back in our favor
[7/30/2012 3:32:56 AM] John (J): Because if she wants to, she can keep us out with her annoying gimmicks.
[7/30/2012 3:33:33 AM] Faemau5_5ever: yeah
[7/30/2012 3:33:59 AM] John (J): The ZSS MU really comes down to player vs. player and who is the better player IMO
[7/30/2012 3:34:10 AM] John (J): both have options against each other and neither really has a true advantage.
[7/30/2012 3:34:20 AM] John (J): Lucas wins the ground game while ZSS wins the air game.
[7/30/2012 3:34:49 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah me and Bio usually go even
[7/30/2012 3:35:04 AM] Faemau5_5ever: It's just a really frustrating matchup because she's more agile than most of the cast
[7/30/2012 3:35:29 AM] John (J): She is the Nymph of the game and that damn speed hahaha. If only she was a little slower because if she was, we could really wreck the girl.
[7/30/2012 3:35:40 AM] John (J): Our air speed saves us in the air, literally.
[7/30/2012 3:35:40 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah that's true
[7/30/2012 3:36:04 AM] John (J): However, good thing, stage-dependent your throws can kill her easy.
[7/30/2012 3:36:59 AM] Faemau5_5ever: You mean offstage?
[7/30/2012 3:37:05 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Or dthrow
[7/30/2012 3:37:24 AM] John (J): Dthrow
[7/30/2012 3:37:38 AM] John (J): Iirc, it's 150 on FD
[7/30/2012 3:37:41 AM] John (J): (as is most
[7/30/2012 3:37:46 AM] John (J): it might be 145
[7/30/2012 3:37:50 AM] John (J): but FD's roof is lol high
[7/30/2012 3:38:03 AM] Faemau5_5ever: It's probably closer to 145 yeah
[7/30/2012 3:38:24 AM] John (J): Still a garunteed kill on that agile woman is a blessing
[7/30/2012 3:38:28 AM] John (J): She doesn't have that on us.
[7/30/2012 3:38:32 AM] Faemau5_5ever: yep
[7/30/2012 3:38:50 AM] Faemau5_5ever: unless she gets a dsmash
[7/30/2012 3:39:02 AM] John (J): Gotta watch out for that Dsmash
[7/30/2012 3:39:16 AM] John (J): it is so funny when you can predict that and get some health and Magnet Cancel
[7/30/2012 3:39:24 AM] Faemau5_5ever: haha yeah
[7/30/2012 3:39:36 AM] Faemau5_5ever: A lot of ZSS's fully charge Neutral B against me and I'm just like
[7/30/2012 3:39:38 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Why?
[7/30/2012 3:39:47 AM] Faemau5_5ever: My reaction time isn't THAT bad like come on
[7/30/2012 3:39:51 AM] John (J): They forget Magnet and Magnet Cancel.
[7/30/2012 3:39:57 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Yeah
[7/30/2012 3:39:59 AM] John (J): like it is a brain slip
[7/30/2012 3:40:07 AM] John (J): they know it's there, but they are used to it in every MU
[7/30/2012 3:40:20 AM] John (J): Did that help a bit with the ZSS MU? Or do you have any other qualms/thoughts?
[7/30/2012 3:40:36 AM] Faemau5_5ever: yeah it helped
[7/30/2012 3:40:43 AM] John (J): I'm glad. ^^
[7/30/2012 3:40:49 AM] Faemau5_5ever: Thanks[/collapse]

Basic thoughts on the MU:

Personally, it's 0/-1 and either number is happy for me and it really is up to how others view the MU.

In the air:

She out ranges you when you are above her, like it is ridiculous how amazing her Uair is. If spaced properly, it's a nuisance. Our Fair beats her Fair, but if I recall, it loses to her Bair because again...amazing aerial and one of her best kill moves which makes it much more annoying. However, our Dair will clank with her UpB.

She is, however, extreme Uair juggling bait due to her terrible Dair. If she misses and just lands with Dair when she uses it, free punish. Uair is a great move in this MU for the air battle. Keep it SH though. You don't want to battle ZSS in the air because you will lose this.

Offstage:

We can mess with ZSS incredibly easily. It's actually a lot of fun. A good ZSS will know how to recover so it will make things a little harder but you can gimp/rack damage up quite nicely on her unlike other characters.

Funny note: Really be careful about your tether...If she times her Dsmash correctly, it will hit Snakey and Lucas will still be paralyzed offstage which means ZSS can hurt us off-stage/possibly take a stock rather easily. Stupid snake haha.

For us, returning to the stage is not bad at all. Just don't get predictable or you could eat some serious damage/set-ups.

Grab-game:

If ZSS attempts to grab and ends up missing, repay her kindness with a running USmash or a smash of your choice really. ZSS however has a CG on us using our Air Release to a certain percentage. It can put us in an awkward position but it's not the worst. I don't know if she can Air Release->Uair us, if she can, just....ouch.

Camp game:

It's bad for both characters to camp in this MU because if ZSS tries to camp with her paralyzer....literal free health even if she is trying to bait the PSIM because we can cancel it. However, Lucas should not be PK Fire camping much either due to her intense speed that can avoid the PKF and still get around...I mean how obnoxiously good is this character? xD

Ground game:

Hmmm, get into ZSS' face and you will do better. She has good moves to get us away from her (stupid jab/dtilt), but if you are closer to her, it is better then being at mid-range or farther away from her. Her dtilt is her fastest tilt and she will be using that for set-ups into the air and getting us above her.

Her dsmash will annoy you to hell. It's a great thing we can heal from it when she gets over-predictable with it. It's a good thing for Mix-ups when you can read the Dsmash because you will heal a lot from it. (hence why Lucas/ZSS is a fantastic team). You won't be healing from it that much though. She can set up kills with this and can rack up damage with it.

She is light as all get-out though. She is pretty easy for us to kill with Fsmash/Fair/etc.

If ZSS UTilts your sheild, punish it. It is insanely terrible on block and you can punish it really well. It's a good move when it hits, but it has really bad cool down afterwards.

Nairing her is a good option as usual, but be careful about her jab to get you out of her bubble.

Pieces:

They are a ***** and unless you got the balls to try and use them against her, more power to ya. They are better off stage then on for you. If you know how to use them, then make use of them, but it is probably best for you to get rid of them from the character who mains knowing how to use her pieces. ;P

In the end, I feel this is a simple -1 MU where ZSS has a slight advantage over us purely due to her air game. It could be 0 if we factor in other things and I feel this MU purely shows the better player will win the MU. It isn't that much of an advantage but it's in her favor more than ours.

*shrug* That's my view on ZSS. I love her, mained her for a bit, but yeah.

For stages, you want to go to stages where you can keep the battle on the ground.

Strike: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island or Battlefield
Ban: Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon

Final destination and smashville are really even territory and counterpicks will play a big part in this MU and where you will go. Just please don't go to Lylat on this MU haha. That's just silly.
 

Jamwa

Smash Champion
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Can't we outcamp ZSS?
Don't wavebounced PK Fires or at least the backwards momentum PK Fires put us far enough away from her so we are safe?

DO NOT REPLY J, GO TO SLEEP
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
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Grab-game:

If ZSS attempts to grab and ends up missing, repay her kindness with a running USmash or a smash of your choice really. ZSS however has a CG on us using our Air Release to a certain percentage. It can put us in an awkward position but it's not the worst. I don't know if she can Air Release->Uair us, if she can, just....ouch.
O.O
That's not how air releases work lol. The trajectory is the same regardless of your damage. We can CG you at any percent.

Uair (10.x%) and fair (17% if both hits connect) are guaranteed, probably nair usmash and dash attack as well.

And ZSS is NOT 'extreme uair juggling bait' lol. I don't know where you get this from. What good ZSSs have you played?

Fairly certain you can usmash us OoS if we hit your shield with utilt
 

Lukingordex

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ZSS is retarted on lylat,that's why.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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Lylat isn't great for us in the MU.
Delphino, CS, and Frigate are all better.

Actually, the OP doesn't really seem to understand a LOT about the MU.
I'll write about it later.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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-I would think Lylat would be a good matchup choice if she gets messed up on that, also since some of her aerials are really good, I don't think I'd pick Battlefield.

-Final Destination gives us some space to dodge her pieces.

What do you guys think about rainbow cruise? We could run and send things at her I guess, I doubt it'd be ideal for either character.

Uhmm, Lylat sounds like the best one with Final Destination so far.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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Can't we outcamp ZSS?
Don't wavebounced PK Fires or at least the backwards momentum PK Fires put us far enough away from her so we are safe?

DO NOT REPLY J, GO TO SLEEP
I laughed pretty hard when I saw this earlier this morning before I went to sleep. I took the advice to say the least. ;P

We do better at camping ZSS that she does us but it's still not recommended because she is one of the characters that has a decent way of getting around that. You are correct in saying that it is safer to do the methods you said though.

This MU isn't 0. No way in hell.

-1.

:phone:
I agree, which is why I said:

O.O
That's not how air releases work lol. The trajectory is the same regardless of your damage. We can CG you at any percent.

Uair (10.x%) and fair (17% if both hits connect) are guaranteed, probably nair usmash and dash attack as well.

And is NOT 'extreme uair juggling bait' lol. I don't know where you get this from. What good ZSSs have you played?

Fairly certain you can usmash us OoS if we hit your shield with utilt
Now this is why I should refrain typing up MU stuff at like 4 in the morning. I have no clue why I put the "till certain percentages" because you can get it whenever and it can lead to a lost stock if the grab is gotten at the right percentage.

Uair juggling bait, as in, it is easier to get Uair off on ZSS and juggle her with multiple Uairs rather than others because of the fact of her Dair being terrible. She is more Uair bait when she is in the air then other characters.

I'll check the frame data on your Usmash OoS from your Utilt.

Lylat isn't great for us in the MU.
Delphino, CS, and Frigate are all better.

Actually, the OP doesn't really seem to understand a LOT about the MU.
I'll write about it later.
Why is Frigate a good stage for ZSS in this MU, if I may ask? And I would love to see your opinion/write-up NR because it's bound to be insightful to the MU since your years of experience with Galeon, "the best Lucas in the World". ^^
 

BlueberrySyrup

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I was wondering about Frigate too, wouldn't the stage set up gimps on her considering the stage flips a lot and her recovery is... well, it's good but it's pretty gimpable at times, but so is ours.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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What do you guys think about rainbow cruise? We could run and send things at her I guess, I doubt it'd be ideal for either character.
Rainbow does not sound like a good idea since most of the match is fought in the air and ZSS can make us her pretty little ***** to put things bluntly on a stage like that.
 

BlueberrySyrup

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We could probably gimp her if we had the experience to do so though.

I think both characters would be even on the stage, no idea though.
 

Luco

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A good ZSS won't attempt the grab that often, therefore to avoid the grab you have to be on guard all game. We just have to watch our grab game and make sure we use the appropriate mix-ups. Some surprising aerials can also catch anyone off-guard. However... I seem to recall that ZSS Uair or maybe U-spec cancels our PKT1. Could be wrong here though. I suppose in general the key to playing this match-up is a mixture of caution, mix-ups and patience.
 

infiniteV115

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Uair juggling bait, as in, it is easier to get Uair off on ZSS and juggle her with multiple Uairs rather than others because of the fact of her Dair being terrible. She is more Uair bait when she is in the air then other characters.
I disagree on this. While her dair may be bad, she still has great aerial mobility, a good fastfall, can land safely with bair and occasional fairs/nairs and can mix up landings with b-reversed lasers/sideBs.

Though, to be fair, I don't know much about Lucas. Is his uair short enough (duration) to frame trap like Falco's uair, making it unsafe to airdodge through? Is his uair giganticly disjointed like ZSS'? If so I would understand, but otherwise I'm not seeing it.

I'll check the frame data on your Usmash OoS from your Utilt.
Her utilt is -44 on block, and I remember being told that if Snake PSes the 2nd hit then he can fsmash us for it XD
So assuming that's true (and it came from the dude on the ZSS boards that seems to know everything about frame data...), I imagine Lucas can AT LEAST fsmash, which is good enough considering ZSS weighs like 2 lbs.

I was wondering about Frigate too, wouldn't the stage set up gimps on her considering the stage flips a lot and her recovery is... well, it's good but it's pretty gimpable at times, but so is ours.
Again, no experience in this MU, but I don't see either character getting gimped without some sort of hard read/huge mistake, unless we dsmash your tether and then spike/footstool you.
 

#HBC | J

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I disagree on this. While her dair may be bad, she still has great aerial mobility, a good fastfall, can land safely with bair and occasional fairs/nairs and can mix up landings with b-reversed lasers/sideBs.

Though, to be fair, I don't know much about Lucas. Is his uair short enough (duration) to frame trap like Falco's uair, making it unsafe to airdodge through? Is his uair giganticly disjointed like ZSS'? If so I would understand, but otherwise I'm not seeing it.
I went and got the frame data to show what I mean. I also brought up a video of Lucas' hitboxes (it's deceptively large from behind his head when he uses it). ^^

U-air
Duration:
Animation Length: 46
IASA: n/a
Start-Up: 1-4
Hit On: 5-10
Cool Down: 11-46
Autocancel: 1
Autocancel: 24-∞
Landing Lag: 12
~
Hitbox:
Damage: 13
Direction: 62
BKB: A
KBG: 64
SDI Multiplier: 1
Shield Hit Lag: 10
Shield Stun: 4
Advantage: -40
Autocancel Advantage: -18

http://www.youtube.com/v/lOtwomIykVE - (Around 1:55 is what you are looking for) Lucas has a good time juggling characters with less than average Dairs and the like.

Infinite said:
Her utilt is -44 on block, and I remember being told that if Snake PSes the 2nd hit then he can fsmash us for it XD
So assuming that's true (and it came from the dude on the ZSS boards that seems to know everything about frame data...), I imagine Lucas can AT LEAST fsmash, which is good enough considering ZSS weighs like 2 lbs.
O_O

Wow, now that is absolutely terrible, we can pretty much get any smash off on her...that is superb to know haha. Thanks for the info!
 

infiniteV115

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I went and got the frame data to show what I mean. I also brought up a video of Lucas' hitboxes (it's deceptively large from behind his head when he uses it). ^^

U-air
Duration:
Animation Length: 46
IASA: n/a
Start-Up: 1-4
Hit On: 5-10
Cool Down: 11-46
Autocancel: 1
Autocancel: 24-∞
Landing Lag: 12
~
Hitbox:
Damage: 13
Direction: 62
BKB: A
KBG: 64
SDI Multiplier: 1
Shield Hit Lag: 10
Shield Stun: 4
Advantage: -40
Autocancel Advantage: -18

http://www.youtube.com/v/lOtwomIykVE - (Around 1:55 is what you are looking for) Lucas has a good time juggling characters with less than average Dairs and the like.
46 frames with no IASA frames and having a slower fastfall than ZSS and having a slowly-rising DJ...I'm still not seeing it. I mean obviously you're going to hit ZSS with it eventually, I'm just saying it's an exaggeration to call her "extreme uair juggling bait" simply because she has a bad dair.

I mean I wasn't even extreme uair juggle bait against Mr.R's Marth, idk why I would against Lucas. His uair isn't even that big.

But maybe that's just because I'm used to ZSS' uair
[COLLAPSE="ZSS uair :p"]



[/COLLAPSE]
 

#HBC | J

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V115, when I am talking about our Uair, I am talking about SHUair which helps with our juggling.

But I understand due to having ZSS's wicked Uair your doubt. :p

:phone:
 

T-block

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ZSS is definitely not one I would consider easy for Lucas to juggle. A simple B-reversal will often get her out of u-air zone, and can even put you on the defensive with a neutral-B shot heading at you as she lands.
 

infiniteV115

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Yup. B-reversed lasers and sideBs coupled with airdodges, , downB, bairs and sourspot uair landings and I don't see how any character can juggle her easily without a huge, quick uair.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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Hmm, alright I will concede to the point that I may be wrong on this one in terms of Extreme Uair Juggling bait and probably should have worded myself better. How about this?

It is easier to get a Uair off on ZSS than it is on other characters with the correct read.
 
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