Zero put mega man @42

[SanAntonioSmasher]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sqflTpGjmvY

Yes this is just one person's opinion, doesnt take into account new patch, and placing mid tiers is pretty tough to begin with. However, what do you all think?

I feel like mega man when mastered is very solid, and has no terrible match ups. Prior to the last patch I thought his biggest hurdle in national tournaments was getting through top shiek players. With the shiek nerf, I could imagine a mega man player possibly taking a big win and surprising people.

But, patch after patch mid and low tiers have been getting buffed, while mega man has largely been unchanged. People have pushed his meta, but maybe he really is now dropping to bottom of mid tier because of lack of buffs. Also, his lack of a solid combo game, and limited safe kill options leave little room for error with him.

Regardless I'm sticking with him, he's just too much fun. Just curious what people think.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I have a feeling that Mega Man will be buffed in some way, hopefully it's meaningful buffs.

 

[Wreck33]

He can beat anybody but he is unforgiving with his outplay somebody totally....just for them to land one punish and its even. The thing he has that is unique is that Mega Man decides whats going on in all is Match ups except Sheik. Haven't played vs Sheik after patch though

 

[p1ay6ack]

megaman has all the tools to beat almost any situation in the Meta. the only issue is the execution he has, and by that i mean, you got to play patient with mm and wait for an opening. this makes it hard to get the kill and sometimes frustration makes ppl lose stage control and overcommit. mm should be winning in stage control because of op pellets but spacing with them plays a huge role too.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I think Megaman is highly underatted. Megaman is a very solid character. I've seen top level Megaman play and it's deadly. I would love to see a Megaman win a national tournament. I would take ZeRo's Tier list with a grain of salt. Any character can win any matchup it's all up to the player.

 

[Wreck33]

Mega Man can win a national now. I'd say Scatt has a chance to place in the top 5 at Pound 2016. I mean is hard and stars needs to line up and what not. Mega Man is really deep and I think it will take a few years before he plays perfectly.

 

[---]

I think Mega Man is losing the power gap, he's lower mid-tier IMO. Granted I don't agree with Zero's list very much (Shulk/Dedede/etc.) and I think he should be placed a little higher (Top 40 at least), but I don't find myself fully disagreeing with where he placed MM for I do agree our meta isn't moving quickly.

I remember telling the M2 board this, but basically MM is not a brain dead character and what good tools we have can't be used in a brain dead way, the latter of which I think sets us apart from other non-brain dead characters. Granted we're not that technical, but when the most brain dead thing about us are pellets I think that says a lot.

So like always it's down to two options: players or buffs. Unlike the M2 board months ago, I'm a lot more pessimistic about the latter happening beyond the NX port rumors, though we're a more complete character to begin with.

MM is a solid character, and I think we should be honored for doing as well as we have for the few changes we've received (#FreeCustoms), ironically the biggest one being a early nerf, but other metas are catching up and have also benefited from the Top Tier nerfs.

 

[Wreck33]

I think he is strong more like no-one plays him. Scatt and Swag and some dude I can't remember that plays on the 3ds is the only good Mega Mans I have seen. Zucco doesn't go to tournaments. The rest even tournament mega mans are not very good. Cant see any Japan Mega Mans representing him very well either. The old stuff from Daiki etc is in the new meta not so good either.

This guy DMG Matt started to play in tournaments recently. He mains a really good Cloud. And has a good Mega Man secondary.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I think he is strong more like no-one plays him. Scatt and Swag and some dude I can't remember that plays on the 3ds is the only good Mega Mans I have seen. Zucco doesn't go to tournaments. The rest even tournament mega mans are not very good. Cant see any Japan Mega Mans representing him very well either. The old stuff from Daiki etc is in the new meta not so good either.

This guy DMG Matt started to play in tournaments recently. He mains a really good Cloud. And has a good Mega Man secondary.

You're forgetting about Stylesx2, Beatfox and Ninjalink.

 

[Wreck33]

No I don't actually. They are very skilled, Ninjalink's mega doesn't compete. He had a solid one but out dated now. He probably have a great one but he don't play him. The other 2 are extremely technical but not playing a winning game.

 

[uncaDon]

Megaman is just too demanding of execution for his relative power level to excel in anything but optimized play, which smash 4 is a long time from seeing.

In addition to the execution, Megaman also requires you to download your opponent well.

I don't think he should be put much higher on a tier list, as tier lists should reflect pure power and consistency modified by results.

 

[Yink]

Mega falls in the category of "Well, he's a pretty good character but he's a lot of effort and work for decent reward", and there are better characters you can pick in his place. I completely disagree with him being #42 on the list Zero made, but it's Zero's opinion (and in my own opinion, does not really reflect how he does around the US, Canada, and in Japan).

I do agree though that as the meta evolves Mega either ebbs up or down, depending on who is getting nerfed (since Mega clearly isn't getting any actual buffs, but indirect ones instead). But, so are other characters, as well as the characters getting actual buffs.

Mega has all these tools to use, but he's just hard to use at high level and the amount of work you put in determines your success. You absolutely need a decent secondary just in case for tough MUs if you want to keep pursuing him. This is Smash 4 though, you know? A lot of good characters, but that's just it: A lot of good characters. Mega's success is on us. We have to put in the time and effort to produce success with him. There are plenty of Megas I know of around the world, so either he'll start to be used more as time goes on (which is fair, since more practice means more knowledge and ability to win) or he'll drop off because people will be too frustrated/exhausted using him (which is also fair, because at high/top level you'd want to use high/top level characters).

I'll still use him though, just have to pull the secondary out. Don't be discouraged though guys: He's good, he's just gotta find his footing again and we need to start getting creative.

 

[Funkermonster]

Personally, I think ZeRo's analysis on Mega Man, and a lot of characters in general was pretty flawed, so I wouldn't worry about it. His reason for MM's low placement was due to our supposed "many limitations and disadvntages", yet he didn't really go into detail or elaborate on what said weaknesses were or who he thinks we lose to. I also think he unfairly harps on our character without saying the positives (all he said we have "some options over the low tiers", geez), yet in his some of his other ones like the analysis he declares his only reason for the lower placement is simply his lack of results, otherwise he basically did nothing but praise the character and neglected to mention anyone of his weaknesses. On the same character, again his placements restricted only because of low tourney results, even though he has many low and even bottom tier characters in his mid tier video (,,,,,) that don't have many results themselves iirc, its kind of hypocritical for his analysis imo.

I do feel kinda bad for him since that the patch interrupted his tier list videos in progress, but nevertheless I find his observations to be rather vague and biased so I find it hard to take his tier list in general seriously. No offense to ZeRo but while he's undoubtedly the king of the game as a player, he's not very good at as a character analyzer imo. I don't like to come off as rude while saying this, but that's just how I see it.

For our Blue Bomber specifically, I wouldn't put him a lot higher than #42 and he does have a point about our meta being slow to develop and its true that we haven't done much yet, but I still don't think it quite justifies our placement and I still consider his analysis nonsensical and uninformative. In my opinion with the low tiers he has in there, I would've personally at least place him in the 30-40 range and about 6 places higher than where ZeRo did: no way in hell are D3, Lucina, Falco, Lucas, Shulk, or Dr. Mario better than us. I could maybe see arguments for the others (don't know as much about Marth & Robin, admittedly), but not by a significant margin.

If he were at least a bit more elaborate in it, I could understand him better.

 

[xIvan321]

Honestly I see him in top 15-20 because he has such a good dab against a lot of the high tiers. That's the way I see it at least, however a character that feels a tad awkward won't be picked up so quickly. He's one of the least organic feeling characters of smash aside from Ryu.

ZeRo went on to talk about "shield problems" regarding Mega Man which I do not agree with at all. I think he may have forgotten the days when he used to play Fox, because I used to play as Fox myself, and gave up due to multiple issues I had and it just didn't suit my playstyle. (Not only that, but personally I truly find Fox overrated in this game.) I played Fox well, but I find it too challenging to win tournaments with him over Mega Man, and I think a lot of Fox's results kinda have been set in stone. Its stuff like that I disagree with ZeRo with and I'd place Fox in mid IMO, but hey that's just me. Aside from that he refused to be specific regarding the other issues. No offense to the guy either. *shrugs*

It doesn't help we are also a community of players of a very underused character which only very, VERY few people actually know exactly how to use him so well. Often we get stuck with asking advice from either people who don't play as Mega Man, or people in general trying to learn how to use him, which is why he is stuck in the tier hell limbo depending who the heck you ask. My projections are very optimistic of Mega Man, and I wouldn't have gone greater lengths to learn a character I truly believe in if he wasn't a good one. This is just my honest opinion.

 

[upsydwnsqr]

Megaman Defintely needs a buff. His frame data is god awful and has no safe killing moves. Unless customs come back, he wont be able to have an impact. Sakurai needs to tweek him up, give him a quality of life buff. Don't expect much from a character who has the worst side B in the game.

 

[Xavix]

Megaman Defintely needs a buff. His frame data is god awful and has no safe killing moves. Unless customs come back, he wont be able to have an impact. Sakurai needs to tweek him up, give him a quality of life buff. Don't expect much from a character who has the worst side B in the game.

Definitely have to disagree with the side b, even pikachu's is worse *incredibly predictable and punishable, decent for recovery at best* whereas Mega's side b can give him kill confirms with back and up air and great mixups.
As for his tier positioning, I still believe that there are spots where multiple characters flat out tie with each other, the balance in this game is unreal. (Although I also hold a firm believe that Mario was always the best character in the game and not Sheik, so take this with a grain of salt).To simplify, I would put him high mid tier among the likes of the pits and yoshi. Definitely don't agree with ZeRo but I do still respect his opnion (he's one of the best in the world for a reason.)

 

[xIvan321]

Well as Yink put it in a nutshell, we far from a brain dead character. What it means, you need to know a lot before you can put in a lot of work, which in itself doesn't necessarily mean we are bad or need to even work harder. Its just all the character's options are all tucked away only to be discovered for the most hard core main-er, or for them to stumble onto a video that explains half the stuff we may already know.

Megaman Defintely needs a buff. His frame data is god awful and has no safe killing moves. Unless customs come back, he wont be able to have an impact. Sakurai needs to tweek him up, give him a quality of life buff. Don't expect much from a character who has the worst side B in the game.

Does he need a buff? Not as desperately as you implied here. We all have our own personal buff wishlist, like I would want short hop fair, or reduction of cool down for d-smash enough to run away while opponent is in shield stun, however I care very little whether I get my wish or not. Glitchniques and metal blade setups are enough to satisfy my "safe kill setups". I can always rack up damage pretty quickly and survive pretty long, but my only two bad match ups make winning harder for me. Then as for our side b, its certainly not the worst when there are a myriad of options available with the bomb. I'll just leave this video to inform you on that topic:

 

[Funkermonster]

Megaman Defintely needs a buff. His frame data is god awful and has no safe killing moves. Unless customs come back, he wont be able to have an impact. Sakurai needs to tweek him up, give him a quality of life buff. Don't expect much from a character who has the worst side B in the game.

Back Slash?
Missiles?
Hammer?


Skull Bash?
Arm Rotor?
Egg Roll?
And we're not supposed to expect much from these 3?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Back Slash?
Missiles?
Hammer?


Skull Bash?
Arm Rotor?
Egg Roll?
And we're not supposed to expect much from these 3?

As a Kirby main, I can agree that Kirby's Side B isn't very good. Yes, it's strong and can net an early kill, but since it's so slow and incredibly punishable, I stick to Kirby's other kill options like his Smashes and U-Throw.
I'll admit when I say Crash Bomber could use a slight damage buff and could benefit from doing more shield damage, but Crash Bomber is best used as a pressure tool, and it isn't bad in that category. From my experience, whenever an opponent shields, I use that to my advantage. It also has incredible range, which is another advantage it has.

 

[Wreck33]

Mega mans side b complements his kit just right I think. Also I think Mega Man has one of the better matchup charts in the game. No really bad matchups. The worst being bayonetta and Sheik at worst 60-40. Rest is even or in megas favor in my experience. Tho he have a lot of even match ups due to his play style of always being in control and dictating every game thanks to the best neutral of all chars, only thing keeping him balanced is his kill moves and low dmg output outside of landing up air strings. Its the only char were the outcome is entirely in your hands, thats the main thing I love when playing him. The Mario matchup in my experience is fairly easy. Its easy not to get killed by avoiding landing near him. Pellets shuts him down. Only thing to really look out for is his hair.

Saw this today. 2 cool clips of Dmg Matty's Mega Man is in this vid. One of the clips shows what looks to be a guaranteed crashbomb setup leading into a footstool jab reset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udWucCl0ZdQ

 

[Megamang]

Crash bomber is a lifesaver in certain MUs. It also helps alleviate the 'trouble killing' thing that megaman often struggles with. He is good at being 'hard to kill' with great weight and aerial mobility, so the 'trouble killing' thing is somewhat alleviated as others can't land their confirms from across the pellet/leafshield/metal blade wall.

Crash bomber forces dodges that can be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to totally avoid. A person stuck with a bomb is in real danger of dying, with mixups such as u-air (that'll kill with rage earlier than you'd think, if you land it perfectly ) and bair if they airdodge.


Good for Zero btw, making a tier list is basically impossible in this game as the balance just gets closer and closer as you approach mid tier. Additionally, characters have tools that are godsends in certain MUs and do nothing in others (Crash bomber!) so its hard to put them in a singular list, and it doesn't mean much anyways. But this means less FG nerds will try and learn the MU, and we can continue rocking people in our own style. I see decent megaman results fairly frequently. And if you go watch the games they lose, it isn't often a blowout where the character can't win. He does well vs DLC (im gonna post some revelations i had vs Cloud in the MU thread when we get to Cloud, but its gotten me to plat on the ladder which is approximately 50% Clouds) and has only gotten better as Shiek appears less in bracket. We can expect some Bayonetta nerfs (Sak doesn't like ZtD) and then im pretty happy with where mega is.

The issue with buffing a zoning master, is that the characters that lose to him will just get beaten so badly it'll be truly horrendous balance.

I'd like a rise in Ryu, as well as the current trend of tons and tons of ****in diddy kongs, means we rarely have a tough bracket.

Don't worry what Zero thinks, its impossible to order the cast without bothering half of the game's mains, the top tiers are all we can really speak on. Its just, zero can't exactly release a video that only mentions 15 characters or else he'd alienate a significant number of fans.

 

[xIvan321]

I seriously doubt Bayonetta is a bad match up to be honest. In this current meta if the top character's issue whether it be slightly or super effective, means that projectile characters should have a lot more value to the tier list since Bayonetta's weakness or at least one of her weaknesses are projectiles. This could still have us seen in a whole new light. Certainly our only bad match ups will likely just be Mario and Sheik, but STILL, I can verify we can defeat Cloud and counter his neutral, and have a good dab on a lot of other high tiers, like Ryu, Villager, Diddy Kong, etc. and have I mention we win the Cloud MU? Yeah we do. Anyways I have a neutral stance on Bayonetta, especially since I've actually been playing her and I do see a number of ways we can win. This is not any harder than Sheik was for us, and I can be very positive on that because unlike Sheik, we can even down air her recovery or potentially edge guard in numerous ways, and Sheik has the best neutral, but saying Bayonetta wins against us badly is certainly wrong.

IMO, to beat Bayonetta means to work on two things: staying as grounded as possible and working on SDI'ing witch twist which I personally I think I may have figured my way out of it now so I don't lose to the combo. I need a lot more MU experience and data before I have a solid opinion. However if we win or lose its most likely slightly either way or 50/50.

 

[Wreck33]

I think we are one of the better chars vs Bayonetta. But still doesn't help because Bayonetta profits way to much on landing pretty easy hits. So its always inconsistent with her. You can outplay her for days but still you can die to anything all the time. Its the same for every character though so thats just the really poor design in competitive play off that character.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

here are some buff ideas
that i might prefer

- reduced startup on down air
- reduced landing lag on upair
- lemon out of leaf shield ?
- reduced endlag of MB ?

stuff like that idk

 

[3MP1R3]

Barely anyone uses him just because he's hard to use and not a traditional Smash fighter. I remember when my brother and friends tried out the 3ds demo when it came out and they were like how do I even play him?

tbh I'd just love a safer f-air and b-air and at least one smash attack that doesn't take five years to cool down

Also has anyone else noticed that when ScAtt is doing super well in tournaments he always gets puts against the worst possible character situations. Pound put him against Mr. R and Larry in top 32. MLG was also Mr. R. And then TOXI was Vinnie. I can see him winning more now with the nerfs, though, as long as he keeps going to nationals.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

yeah i'm excited about where the megaman meta will go. i think there's still a lot of unexplored options and stuff. scatt's killing it

 

[Lord Horatio]

Mega Man's importance in the meta seems to be growing given his matchup with Bayonetta, I'd say. This alone could put him in top 30 at least.

 

[Wreck33]

Fore me he is around 5-7th place

 

[xIvan321]

Well I still say he's top 15 but his importance may increase a tiny bit more because of the Bayonetta and Cloud MU. I do think Mega Man wins the Cloud MU at least 45:55. Bayonetta still needs to be a more of a proven concept, which I have a lot of faith in however its worth noting a character with a such a solid neutral was definitely much harder than one without and or lacking one. In other words, there is no way Bayonetta should be any harder than Sheik and we have quite a fair shot at being a potentially decent counter pick.

 

[glenn]

I'd agree that he's bottom of mid-tier. I think we get hung up on what sounds like a big gap, but really the difference between top mid-tier and bottom mid-tier, is minuscule. But there are tons of characters, and somebody's got to sit in that spot. Played perfectly, he's got tools to match most of the top tiers, but that simply isn't good enough. The best players make mistakes, and it's unrealistic to think of his potential in a vacuum. Mega Man has lots of potential, but I don't think his damage output in neutral makes up for what he takes when someone gets in, and all players make mistakes. Chipping with pellets will only get you so far, and then Mario gets a grab and you've got 60%. He's a mediocre character unless you invest tons of time into learning how to play him, and then he's decent and can contend with most of the cast. That said, I hope to be proven wrong, and everytime Scatt makes it into top 8 at a big tourney, I'm holding my breath.

 

[Megamang]

I think smash 4 is showing to be not only about raw skill, but about having MU knowledge across the cast. And, you can test this against some players by having a pocket, co-mains, etc, any name for playing multiple characters well. This has shown at even the top level to be a good factor to mix someone up and take them down before they realize what is happening, since 2 stock happens so fast.

Megaman is great for this. He has good MUs with Cloud, Bayo, Diddy, Sonic, decent with Rosalina, I think he does really well vs Corrin... He is a great character to have under your belt. It is possible he isn't solo viable, though Scatt is doing work with just Mega (and some Cloud in doubles I saw, don't know if he uses Cloud for any singles MU)...

So you have a choice. Solo main megaman, and either hope for a lucky bracket or see his true potential against the whole cast... Or have him as part of a team of characters, where he has usage for certain MUs and isn't out in others. I personally chose this route, since I think he really struggles vs Mario and I don't like any characters with good reflectors tbh, even if the MU is close to even it changes my playstyle so much it makes it difficult, while they are playing their game normally.

I am going with a Greninja / Megaman team, since I think they cover eachother's weaknesses well. Greninja is an extremely mobile character with good kill confirms and good early combos, and decent zoning. When I feel my zoning was working and not much else, I can go pure zoning with Megs. Additionally, Greninja really doesn't like Sonic, so Megaman comes out against sonic, sometimes Cloud, and usually Bayonetta. Finally, I have a pocket Lucario for cheesing shieks and sometimes Little Mac or captain Falcon.


Anyways... find out what you want from both the game and the character. If your character is helping you achieve that goal, then you are on the right path. Otherwise, its ok to look around. No one is holding you to any character.

I personally want to rep with a mixed team of underrepped characters. I find if fun to be a rarer matchup vs People, and they often thank me for MU knowledge if I pull a cheesy win, which feels nice to be making my region stronger in odd MUs little by little.

Anyways, that is my piece. Kinda rambly, but thanks for reading.

 

[xIvan321]

Barely anyone uses him just because he's hard to use and not a traditional Smash fighter. I remember when my brother and friends tried out the 3ds demo when it came out and they were like how do I even play him?

tbh I'd just love a safer f-air and b-air and at least one smash attack that doesn't take five years to cool down

Also has anyone else noticed that when ScAtt is doing super well in tournaments he always gets puts against the worst possible character situations. Pound put him against Mr. R and Larry in top 32. MLG was also Mr. R. And then TOXI was Vinnie. I can see him winning more now with the nerfs, though, as long as he keeps going to nationals.

Barely noticed this. On the other hand, Scatt isn't the only Mega Man, and hopefully soon I'll try to show up to more events. I mean I use the Wiimote and Nunchuck too, but definitely not in the way I know he doesn't use it.

 

[Wreck33]

And then Kamemushi wins the national in Japan. Funny how things pan out. Mega Man is one of the best chars in the game as I have felt for long now. 2 slightly weak MUs since last patch. And even them are manageable.

 

[Megamang]

If you were to play each character for just an hour (without watching pro play) i'd bet Megaman feels like one of the worst. You need to have a solid lemon game before he really functions. That said, with the lemon game he shuts down a lot of characters, and even characters that do decently against them really have to respect them.

I'd guess Zero just messed around with each character to make his list. His videos are LCD anyways.

 

[Wreck33]

Word Megamang that is so true. Mega is towards the lower end if you can't lemon correctly.

 

[xIvan321]

Word Megamang that is so true. Mega is towards the lower end if you can't lemon correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpj9QpRykmU

I always use this match to show what can bad pellets look like. The context I'm trying to make here is that Bayonetta isn't supposed to slide under your pellets for free. There are at least a handful of MUs where you need to pay attention to how low you fired. This player definitely lost for that reason alone since he never really fired grounded level pellets both before jumping and after landing.

 

[Mythzotick]

I kind of stopped taking ZeRo's opinion on Mega Man seriously anymore since it seems like he could care less about the character. He didn't even give him a mention in his top 5 characters with the most potential video and has a character like instead. It's also no secret that he has a thing for and has characters that are really bad like above him. If ZeRo were to make a list of top 5 or top 10 least favorite characters in Smash 4, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he had the blue bomber on his list. Not taking anything away from the guy as he is one of the best, if not, the best in the game and can also find him pretty entertaining sometimes.

I currently think is top 20 right now. At the very least, there are about 14 characters that without question have better mu spreads than we do. The rest that are in the 15-25 range are debatable, but what gives us the edge over most is how good our neutral is. Of the 3 positions, the most important is neutral, followed by advantage, and disadvantage being the least important even though it's still really important. Why do I bring that up? That's the same order of how good our 3 positions are with us having a brutal neutral, a somewhat good advantage state, and a decent/okayish disadvantage state. I think the absolute highest he can possibly get is at the bottom of top 10, but I don't think that will happen unless something game breaking gets discovered or another balance patch gives us a nice boost. Still though, the optimism is real in me.

 

[Mythzotick]

Fore me he is around 5-7th place

Is it possible? That you might be. A prophet?

Then again though, you'll still have people out there disrespecting the blue bomber and say that he isn't even high tier. Well you know what?

got 2nd at EVO which had over 2500 entrees. Your argument is invalid.

 

[Wreck33]

Word Mythzotick ! I knew he was high tier. its just nobody is good with him. Shoutout to Locke who I catched on stream playing a good set!
A shame that kame played like **** vs Allys Mario doing the wrong neutral. The last 2 games he switched to how I play the neutral vs Mario and Ally couldnt get in anymore. He should have won that last game imo. To bad but great result. What I wanna know is how kameme can connect bair on a standing still item thrown MB from a pretty far distance.....

 

[Mega-Spider]

Congrats to Kame for proving that Megs can get a high placement, even going as far as to beat ZeRo! :D