Zelda

[Zankoku]

So let's have a legit discussion, since we haven't had one in a while.

In your opinion, is it worth the time/effort to learn Zelda and her uses in order to take advantage of Transform?

If yes, in what situations would you do so? Is this a true optimal decision, or just something to cover a mistake or unexpected problem? Are there any situations where you're caught as one character when you really want to be the other, as a result?

If no, why? And give a legitimate reason, so no "Zelda's bad lol" or "I only want to use one character", please.

 

[Izaw]

Against a match up like Dedede; Yes definitely, getting an easier and faster kill on DDD with Zelda helps soooo much. Staying as Sheik trying to kill DDD is hard and is a pain in the *** overall.

Against a match up like CF, MK, Wario it's not really needed at all. Sheik has so much more traps/ setups for both combos and killing moves and play so much more safer than Zelda against some match ups.

 

[phi1ny3]

^Pretty much, although I get kinda tempted to use Zelda against DK and ROB at higher percents since their shield is pretty bad, it only takes a couple of smashes to let them get poked by dtilt or usmash (preferably usmash, but dtilt sets up for kill moves too), and their big frame kind of helps for LKs.

tbh Zelda is pretty basic-ish, just really hard to use for serious play for a full match of using her exclusively. Most people don't know the MU, and it helps that you don't have to deal with as many issues that she has playing a full match, like trying to camp/approach, and you're just trying to land one big move (mind you, intelligently, fishing doesn't help rofl). Also, nearly everyone ON THE FIRST TIME they play the duo tries to hit zelda when you transform while respawning, I always save that little tidbit for when I need it, because that's a free stock, even if it's a gimmicky way to get it.

Zelda basically works well for: ICs, D3, DK, ROB, Pikachu (I'm on the fence about this since I think Pika's way more agile than Zelda can really handle), and some possible low tiers. I'm also not a fan of trying to use Zelda to avoid getting CG'd as falco for the first 50% of the match, it's a really gimmicky way to go, and Falco's options are waaay too overwhelming for you to get any worth out of being unchaingrabbable pretty much lol.

 

[Orion*]

I'm also not a fan of trying to use Zelda to avoid getting CG'd as falco for the first 50% of the match, it's a really gimmicky way to go, and Falco's options are waaay too overwhelming for you to get any worth out of being unchaingrabbable pretty much lol.

This.

If you're really smart near the ledge with camping/baits/needles and know how to do the gimp setups it's not really easy for falco to grab you either. the thing that goes through my head is...

don't let falco jab you. just DONT go into the boxing range. jab = god and if you get jabbed you will probably get grabbed. never worth the risk. instead of thinking don't get grabbed it's more like "stay out of falcos boxing range unless he hard commits". Although this is kinda how I approach the MU anyway, if you try and directly fight falco that 2 frame priority monster is hard to deal with.

 

[NO-IDea]

His jab range is Sheik's f-tilt range. If anything, you should be playing that MU as you would space against every other high tier character.

Zelda can be useful. But I wouldn't use Zelda for any particular MU for the sake of landing the kill move. You'd be better off learning how to actually play Sheik and not get hit. It's easy to rack the damage and unstale an aerial for the kill move. Her frame data is phenomenal and should be abused.

In short, maybe ICs? But that's it.

 

[Judo777]

there as has already been mentioned Zelda is nice for some MU's where killing can be an issue or where Zelda doesn't do half bad herself and it might be a change of pace or killing might be even easier (say if its not so hard with Sheik like maybe against Yoshi). Its' also nice against people like Pikachu who can cg the hell out of you before 50% so just play Zelda until then. It's also nice against IC's if you ask me.

But another IMO extremely valuable thing about Zelda is she is a nice loop hole in the CPing system for sheik. Since she does alright against 2 of sheiks worst MU's IC's and Pika its a nice safety net. In tournament sometimes you will play character's whos optimal stage is the same as Pika's or IC's (perhaps Falco or Diddy share FD with IC's). If you know your opponent can play IC's or Pika or you suspect they might CP after they pick a stage like FD, you can switch to Zelda (you would have to before you pick your character.) That way if they happen to pick Pika or IC's (characters that can hurt you badly or kill you for a transform into Zelda) you are ready to play as Zelda but if they decided to stay you can fight it out until you are safe to switch or switch at the very beginning and take maybe 15%. It's much better than being stuck in a terrible MU.

 

[Zankoku]

So it sounds like the biggest use people feel for Zelda is to cover certain matchups or parts of matchups (the killing part)? Are there enough matchups or are those matchups big enough issues to warrant really putting time into her?

What about general use? As Judo mentioned, it's a bit of a change of pace, which might help to throw the opponent off guard. Do you guys feel that it'd be enough to net a kill more easily than with Sheik, provided we don't have the proper setup for an early-ish kill?

 

[Dnyce]

I had imagined that a transform during a stall phase of PS1 or something might work, but I haven't tried it. I'm too inexperienced to say, but I don't think it'd work out well in the long run.

 

[phi1ny3]

I hate when I switch from my Wii to someone else's, because most of the time, the transformation on someone else's disk takes foreveeeeeeeer to complete.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I just have all the Zelda and Sheik files on my SD card. No random ******** "your disc drive sucks so it won't load well" stuff.

Also I like FTilt -> NAir/FAir to get them away, dash away and transform to get my kills.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Zelda is pretty good guys lol.

In all seriousness though, she is definitely nice to have for having a lead or changing the pace. A lot of people do not know how to fight Zelda still so MU inexperience helps us out.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Man. Zelda kills me.

Jiggly's game is all baiting.
And your smash attacks hit everywhere.

and kill us...
all the damn time.

 

[<π]

you can bait and punish zelda's attacks especially the smash attacks mink >: (

I have mixed feelings about zelda. she is very powerful she can control space pretty well and her big hit boxes mean you can shut down a lot of options pretty well. but that is hugely off set by her terrible recovery. I think she has one of the worst recoveries in the game, though that can be worked around. (watch ed's recoveries for example)

I don't think she is especially strong in the IC match up spamming fsmash won't work in the match up unfortunately.

when would I use her? to refresh my moves? but it isn't because zelda is bad its because I'm nowhere near as strong with zelda as I am with sheik. I'd use her like ED does though if I was stronger with her. to change pace Zelda GREAT when people have to approach her IMO so I'd try to take advantage of that.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Of course you can bait and punish the smashes, but the fsmash is what gets me. It has so much range, and smash DI'ing out of it is so hard. God forbid you accidently shield her fsmash and half your shields gone lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

I love Ed's followups from when people DI zelda fsmash, I saw one where I think he either tilted or DA'd someone who went behind him.

 

[DKMikey]

For someone who just started Brawl and decided to main Sheik, the only times I use Zelda is when I respawn and my opponent has 90%+ damage. Easy kill .

It's not because I don't like her that I don't use her, but the fact that I really do prefer Sheik, and would like to master Sheik before attempting Zelda. I got the idea of using Zelda to kill after seeing L.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh, Zelda is great to kill Wario with. Kills much earlier than GR->USmash with Sheik.

 

[<π]

wario is so cake like on most stages with sheik. you can gr usmash on bf regardless of plat.

Zelda's recovery is way too easy for wario to punish IMO

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Zelda vs. Wario is incredibly difficult once you get pushed to the ledge. Grabbing him is also incredibly tough.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda isn't a smart choice against Wario Supreme Dirt. There will also be matches where you probably will be incapable of grabbing Wario even once with Zelda.

Besides Sheiks usmash kills about the same as a lightning kick.

 

[<π]

I think zelda does well against people with low over all movement speed like D3, maybe luigi? I can't see myself using zelda in many match up over sheik. only pika and that's only till I'm out of GR percents.

 

[<π]

Zelda isn't a smart choice against Wario Supreme Dirt. There will also be matches where you probably will be incapable of grabbing Wario even once with Zelda.

Besides Sheiks usmash kills about the same as a lightning kick.

generally earlier yoo because kill percents aren't dependent on where you are since usmash kills vertically.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Eh, I just like the Wario MU with Zelda.

 

[<π]

wario is like jiggly on crack. he is way to fast to reliably get our smashes on as zelda on IMO. We don't have the speed or mobility to really keep up with his air game at all. At least in my experience and in my head.

 

[phi1ny3]

It certainly doesn't help when Zelda's shield grab/standing grab is stupidly slow (like 12 frames lol), and she has no jab/CQ mixups besides maybe dtilt to get a grab to land, which is hard to land on Wario b/c he's not going to stay on the ground often, let alone near zelda.

Sheiks tipper usmash still kills ridiculously early, you can get grab from ftilt, jab, weak hit nair, and fair/bair at lower percents. She also has more usable walling against Wario, which is veeeeeery important in the MU (from what I learned at least). Even her relative lack of range shines in this MU against a character with almost no disjoint to speak of lol.

Zelda's hilarious if they don't know the MU, but pretty bad if they do.

 

[Fuujin]

Of course you can bait and punish the smashes, but the fsmash is what gets me. It has so much range, and smash DI'ing out of it is so hard. God forbid you accidently shield her fsmash and half your shields gone lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w
Pro tip, hold up.

she does alright against IC's and Pika

 

[<π]

I could see her doing well against pika. her land options aren't strong enough for ICs IMO.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Yeah, i still can't DI it.
Maybe i'm just bad.

 

[<π]

I think it has a lot to do with character too. hardly IC don't have to DI to get out of usmash for example.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Jigglypuff is like

"I'm stuck in a multi hit attack? LOL"

Zss has no problems with alot of multihits.

 

[Fuujin]

I could see her doing well against pika. her land options aren't strong enough for ICs IMO.

If by well you mean a solid disadvantage then yeah, she does well.

 

[Zankoku]

Does she get CG'd into an usmash at 90%?

 

[Fuujin]

Does she get CG'd into an usmash at 90%?

Nope, it doesn't mean she does well in that match up though.

 

[sheikamaru]

I say in pika vs sheik.. Start off with zelda then go to sheik for kills..

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Zelda! She does well against Pika. The only pika I lose to is ESAM and it isn't that far off. I really don't think it's that bad.

As far as ICs, the air is lava! I really try and stay grounded with hitboxes always out. Need more practice in the MU though.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Best way to play the IC mu,
whenever they grab you just jump off the stage.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Best way to practice ^

Especially since I'm bad at mashing.

 

[<π]

pika has no range really, not out of a dash, not in the air.
thunder jolt is silly.
the grab doesn't do anything.

pika is really easy to zone out, and even when he does get inside whats he going to do? dthrow uair nair?

the match up isn't suppremely disadvantaged it may be hard to kill pika but it should be equally hard for him to get you.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Even against people who don't play IC.

It'll teach you to get he hell away from IC's.

 

[Fuujin]

pika is really easy to zone out, and even when he does get inside whats he going to do?

>>Implying Pikachu needs to approach
Pikachu isn't high tier for no reason, if he can manage to hold his own on characters who actually have good defensive options (Marth, Snake, MK, etc) what makes you think he would have anymore trouble with Zelda mediocre defense?

but it should be equally hard for him to get you.

So...you're saying Pikachu has just as much trouble approaching the opponent as Zelda?

Zelda! She does well against Pika. The only pika I lose to is ESAM and it isn't that far off. I really don't think it's that bad.

I'm just gonna assume our definitions of doing well are different.
I played a nice amount of games with K prime at whobo and its clear she has a disadvantage, I mean I wasnt getting 3 stocked every game but i wouldn't day its -1 or near even.
What Pikachus do play and how often?