Zelda vs. Jiggylpuff Strategy

[Taylorswift4President]

Hi all,

There hasn't been much dicussion of puff over the years in this forum and I was hoping we could talk about some specific points vs. puff in this thread.

First, what is the overall strategy? I feel like with her light weight, the plan is to get a few good bairs in when Jiggs allows an opening. Easier said than done, I know. Additionally, it seems like the key is to stay grounded as much as possible given Zelda's severe limitations in the air.

Second, what is the optimal rest punish? I read a tip in the strats discussion that you can stand next to her, do a roll towards her and be in a perfect position for a sweetspotted Forward Smash. However, since she can SDI out, do you think that a sweetspotted Bair is the safer/preferred option? The only other thing I can think of is a fully charged downsmash and an attempt to follow up.

Third, what about stage selection? This is something I hardly see discussed. Yoshi's Story appears to be the absolute worst level in this matchup since Jiggs gives you no room to breathe, even though she dies fairly early on Yoshi's. My opinion is that Dreamland is the best option here, despite it also being Jiggs' best level. It gives Zelda rooms to run around and try to capitalize on a mistake while also lettering her live very long. Joggs doesn't have too many KO moves. I also think Final Destination is a good choice as well, since it lacks platforms for Puff to get a good rest set up. What are your opinions on these levels?

 

[Yort]

I would not say dreamland is the best stage for zelda in this matchup. It takes literally one or two more bairs to kill Puff on dreamland, and all puff has to do is bair you over and over again then bair you outta your up b. I feel like from my experience in this matchup I actually liked fountain of dreams. A decent amount of room to float around and trade with puff, which you should win.

This match up is entirely spacing and punish based, if you have the better spacing and reactions as Zelda you will probably win pretty confidently. The only moves you should really use are back air forward air possibly a dash attack and downthrow. Downthrow back air will work at some percents (probably lower) depending on DI of course.

And you are right with part one. It depends on the opponents playstyle though, if you feel their puff aerial game is weak then walls of Zelda back airs will do you well. Most of the time you can be in the air but also avoid taking hits if you space it right, although you want to be on the ground most of the time before your back air punishes.

I forgot to say you wanna catch puff in the air in between her bairs, she has no way to shield in the air and you will win any trades with a sweet spot bair so. Being above puff is bad in this match up. Ground game and center stage control is important because if you get knocked off the edge a good puff will kill you.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

BTW, don't punish a missed rest with a smash that can be Directional Influenced out of

 

[Upke]

With a lot of experience in this MU, I can say that Yoshi's is one of Zelda's better stages. Puff's aerial mobility is clearly significantly better, so keeping in close quarters gives you more openings. As long as you avoid upair, upsmash, and fsmash, you can still live to like 120% and kill her at 50%. I would say FoD is the best in theory, what with two of Puff's more reliable killmoves in the MU being upair and upsmash, but I have had the best results on Yoshi's easily.

As far as how the MU should be played, it's ideal to just dashdance and watch how they wall their bairs. You just have to look for their habits and common timings/spacing and reach your own bair in between Puff's. That's probably 90% of the MU in itself, but there are a few other things to keep in mind. CC dsmash at low percents is good to trade damage, since you only need half as much damage to kill Puff. If you do it too much, they will just space retreating bairs so that it doesn't work, so it's just to keep them honest when you notice them getting too close. Also, when they are bairing very conservatively and not trying to encroach on your stage position, you can sometimes sneak in dash attacks, again just for percent. This is another thing that will only work when they don't expect it, because you have to be wary of CC rest. It's risky but important because if they bair safely and you don't threaten them with anything, then it will only continue.

As for grabs, they are basically useless. If they don't know the MU sometimes you can dthrow kick on inward DI, but once they DI away, you can't follow up. If you have to grab, like if they are getting too comfortable in shield, then dthrowing I believe is just the most percent, unless you want to try and read their DI on upthrow at lower percents and go for an upair.

 

[Habilecho]

Kick rest punish is infinitely better than perfect spaced f-smash. Fully staled kick will kill earlier than unstalled f-smash (last hit only).

You can fsmash to destale both kicks though that is a factor. But if you can kill her use a kick.

I think fair > bair though since most likely the kill kick will be bair more times than not, and you might as well not stale that move.

 

[Habilecho]

You can also get cheeky and din's fire --> kick which can true combo if done perfectly. I terms of raw damage this would be the best. You just have to make sure you can set it up in time beforehand.

 

[Magus420]

I'm pretty certain fully charged single hit f-smash kills before kicks. Never tested the exact percents, but according to the IKneeData calc it's a 8-9 damage difference. With unstaled f-smash and kick it ranges from 49 f-smash/58 kick on the side of YS, up to 74/82 at the center of DL.

 

[Habilecho]

no stale lightning kick kills spawn position puff on FD at 66% (with 20XXTE smart DI)
no stale fully charge single hit f-smash kills her at some position at 58%
no stale no charge single hit f-smash kills her at 87%

I tested it before no charge since it wasn't always possible to have the time to set up the spacing and then fully charge. If you can set it up in time then yeah it will kill earlier. But without time to set up, kicking is safer / faster / more reliable.

Din's fire --> kick combo btw would kill this puff at 52%. Pretty nice for style but less reliable if opponent DI's out of din's fire correctly (as in DI down since they don't pop up anymore, all other DI can work if reacted to appropriately I believe - not fully tested).

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, it's definitely a missed rest punish only thing so that there is time to roll and charge it.

Important to note that you should be facing the same direction as Puff before rolling through them, and c-stick+Z/A charge the smash to get it consistently. Puff's hurtboxes don't stick out as much on the backside so if you forward roll through then f-smash the last hit also whiffs, but because her back roll is slightly shorter it gives the proper spacing for hitting Puff's backside. Facing the same direction as Puff before rolling gets you the correct roll you need for it and is easy to remember.

Also, copied from the secret strats thread: If they're between 46-57% you can do D-Air->D-Tilt->D-Smash (26 dmg), and if they happen to be at 50-51% you can go for D-Air->D-Tilt (x2)->D-Smash (32.37 dmg) which are all guaranteed if you do them right. You could also try them above those ranges where the d-tilt would be popping them up before doing the d-smash, but if they ASDI the d-tilt down and immediately getup attack/stand/roll the d-smash can whiff.

 

[Habilecho]

Oh that's cool. Thanks for the tips on f-smash spacing.

dair combo sounds nasty I got to try that sometime.

 

[Magus420]

Oh yeah! Forgot that non-tumble d-air to b-air is also a thing. I've sometimes used it as an up-b landing lag punish (more damage/KB than b-throw, and more damage/KB/doesn't send them back onstage like f-air) but never tried it for a rest punish. Works from 35-57 on Puff, though I wouldn't try it until later in that range where there's room for error. Since d-air adds 8 dmg, if you DI a rest to die off the side the b-air will be fresh and d-air > b-air will have the same KO power as charged f-smash without the long setup time.

 

[Habilecho]

I've never tried dair --> bair before. But just testing it looks pretty sick to do. What characters use that most? Sheik / falcon / marth is what comes to mind.

 

[BagrB0y]

What about Pokemon Stadium vs. Puff? I don't think I have seen this map mentioned yet.

 

[Habilecho]

I haven't tried Stadium too many times but from what I have done it seems like a decent counterpick.

Really it depends on what type of puff you're playing against and how you can handle it.

Puff's that know how to corner pressure I can see Stadium a lot more since it gives you some extra room. Otherwise it's probably better to choose Yoshi's or FoD.

I think I would default to Yoshi's / FoD depending on what they ban. If it's a 3/5 though and I seem like the corner is a rough spot then I may opt for Stadium.