Zelda vs. Fox

[TacoLord9000]

What should I be doing in this matchup? I usually just find myself spamming bair a lot and a few dash attacks, but sometimes I get heavily punished when I misspace my aerials. Should I let the fox be the aggressor in the match, or do I need to bait out his approaches? I guess what I'm trying to say is what are Zelda's main options in this matchup?

 

[yttik]

Most of the time when you're playing Zelda, you won't be the aggressor. She doesn't have the speed or the pressure options to do so. Just do what Zelda does best, space and take in their playstyle. Spamming bair is mostly a good thing, her kicks are moves even top tiers with they had. Whenever you have your back to the ledge make sure your throw are all bthrows, you can run out after and gimp him pretty early with a solid kick while he is charging Firefox. Just generally whenever you expect a Firefox, just kick him and he's done. Because it's Fox and he has such quick options, you need to be aware of yours, such as dsmash. Crouch cancel dsmash also works great. Don't be afraid to sit in shield or light shield at high percents, a grab won't lead to much as Fox against Zelda. It's better to get grabbed in your shield then upsmashed, plus whenever you are in shield you can try for a kick OoS. Make use of Fox's fall speed and upthrow him, leads to a lot. Stages selection is super important too, Dreamland is your best bet.

Oh yeah and y'know, down B is good too.

 

[Mikkelmann]

hmm this is a hard match up but as a fox main and what I can tell from Zelda (which is very little) as a guess Bair is a very good tool that Zelda has. you can try to gimp fox by lets say: Getting him off stage and use back air to gimp him. Don't approach him cause in a up close fight Fox will almost always win but you can use B to break up combos. For example: if Fox is just going crazy and not really thinking such as just Nairing in to you and shining you can try using B stop him. But that's just me I don't know the match up very well.

 

[Perfecthell4]

Actual Zelda main with tons of experience in the matchup

Become an absolute master of platform wavelands and general ground to plat mobility and vice versa. Moving around a lot and spacing with Bairs is yor best bet in the neutral. However, do not be simple and repetitive about your bairs (ie. doing bair in place over and over), as this is just asking the fox to slip in during land lag and start a drill shine uthrow->uair combo for a lot of damage, possibly even more uairs, possibly to kill. Basically a good Fox can punish you insanely hard off even the slightest of openings, so trick him up with platforms and bairs. I also like to use run-off or fall-through bairs from platforms, as they cut out short hop lag and keep the Fox on their toes, who likely has no idea what to do against Zelda.

I don't recommend using B to break out of a combo, you can literally get punished on hit in many situations, and if you miss you're free to punish hard. If you have that opportunity, use either your jump or your air dodge to escape. Note that both animations look exactly the same and someone not versed in the matchup is almost always tricked by the two as long as you mix them up as escape options.

Up throw, dash attack, sometimes Usmash (take note of whether your opponent knows how to SDI this) are great combo starters, but always be aware of how far you can take it and make sure to get that Fair/Bair ender in before they slip out of your grasp. Going for that extra hit of damage is NOT as important as ending with the kick and getting them off stage. Sometimes, end your combo even earlier than you know you can, because your opponent will DI for something else and get gimped hard.

Learn how to edgeguard Fox to perfection. Nayru can be good, but be aware that the hitbox is trash (vertically). Kick him out of anything, especially firefox charge up. Dsmash at the ledge. Too low/sweetspot? Dtilt reaches insanely low. Always space your Dsmash at the ledge so that your foot only just reaches the ledge at it's furthest extent, visually this might not seem far enough forward but the hitbox is pretty huge and this will ensure that your leg is covered fully by invincibility. Also know when to simply take edge. I also like to sometimes try to intercept their recovery mid-way with Din's Fire and then combo off it into a kick, but this is more for styling and i dont recommend making it a staple part of your edge guard game. Use up B edge cancels to refresh invincibility when you plan on simply ledge hogging.

Try not to shield too much at low percents, grab will destroy you until high percents.
CC Dsmash is great against his jump in Nair, but if he Dairs a lot you will get wrecked for trying this.
Take note of their pressure game. If it is strong, DO NOT shield grab. You WILL get shined. If it's not so strong, take those free shield grabs and convert into a big juggle and into an edgeguard, which hopefully clears the stock. It's not uncommon for a good Zelda to take a Fox's stock off a single hit.

ALWAYS be tricky with your recovery. Up B to ledge, Up B to on stage in front of the ledge, Up B to a platform, save your double jump and float to near ledge and then jump to up b cancel on ledge, use your air dodge, etc. Mix it up.

You can use Din's Fire if he is really far away to kind of bait him in, i like to start a din's fire and if they immediately start approaching, i release it WAY earlier than i even think i should. Fox is fast enough, he will catch up to it's position right around the moment it goes off. They almost never expect this. Dont do this often enough that they can predict it though.

In all honesty, the matchup should be completely unwinnable. However, it usually can happen for you simply because the Fox doesnt know what to do. As i've mentioned a few times, ALWAYS mix things up. The biggest detriment to Zelda is the other player's matchup knowledge. Mix them up so that they still have no idea what to do by the time they lose game 2 or 3. Get predictable and you will lose.

And lastly, your actual best option. Use your down B.

 

[Perfecthell4]

Forgot to mention, when you are tech chasing from underneath a platform you want to go for a sweetspot kick read or a waveland grab/dsmash. Note that you have to get a hard read and waveland really early in order to get grab, since it's got such long startup. Dsmash is generally the better waveland choice. I just tend to read the roll and kick though.

Nair is actually really good as a rising aerial from underneath a shielding opponent on a platform. It almost always shield pokes, and if it doesnt you can drift off the platform during the multihits on shield and by the time they get out of shield stun you're already out of there, no harm no foul.

 

[Perfecthell4]

Someone already mentioned kicks out of shield, they're really good. Get good at the exact spacing, generally you are going to jump out of shield away from them and c stick towards them, though understand that there are select cases where that's not the spacing. It's a good rule of thumb though.

Stages:
BAN FD. BAN IT HARD.
I know, i know, juggles. There's a problem; You are not Marth. You NEED platforms for your mobility or you will get trashed. In addition, your chaingrab is escapable by simply DI'ing behind. Sure you can usually get a kick on that but not a continued combo, and they expect that kick so the DI is correct. Just dont go here.

Dreamland/Yoshi's:
Eh. Not the worst, but not the best. Yoshi's has the one benefit of super close side blastlines, making the early kills easy. But it's drawbacks are a low ceiling and Fox's shine gimps and general play being above average here. I dont really recommend it, but its not as bad as FD and certainly do-able.
Dreamland you would think is good because of survival, but in actuality it gives Fox too much room to run around you and stay out of your threat zones, while also putting the platforms just out of useful mobility reach. Again, not the worst, but far from the best.

Battlefield:
Good stage, the wonky ledge limits his recovery options without limiting yours, the platforms are just right, nothing really to complain about here other than the balanced blast zones not being the most favorable thing possible. Which leads me right into what should be every Zelda's go-to stage imo.

FoD:
Like Battlefield, without the ledge bonus but with close side blastlines (early kick and fsmash kills) and high ceiling (woo!). The moving platform heights also tend to mess Fox's up a bit, while for Zelda them getting closer to the ground is actually a good thing, as your drop through or run off Fair/Bair are now at ground level, and your Dsmash on the platform hits ground level. All around a fantastic stage for Zelda.

Mentioning Fsmash, reminds me i forgot to go over it in the matchup. Baiting approaches and then WD back Fsmash is amazing. Your hurtbox draws back a lot on startup, so you can get some seriously tricky whiff punishes. It's also very powerful. It also has a ton of range, can't be punished on shield, and beats out his recovery moves if they cross it's range. Generally an awesome move, but punishable on a complete whiff so once again, dont get predictable.

 

[Comet7]

Would Pokemon Stadium be better than FD for Zelda because of the platforms and transformations?

 

[Perfecthell4]

Yes, forgot to mention that stage. It's better than FD, i would probably put it at worse than Battlefield, probably around the dreamland/yoshi's area.

 

[Upke]

I'll just throw in a few things that I didn't see mentioned (sorry if I missed it).

1. I actually rarely bthrow at the ledge. If they are at low percent with no platform nearby, upthrow CG. Low percent with a platform is a choice, you can bthrow if you're more confident in the low percent edgeguard (which isn't easy, Fox has a ton of options), or you can upthrow if you're more confident in the platform tech chase. At high percents, I almost always dthrow (with the exception where bthrow will definitely kill at very high percents). If they DI in on dthrow, you get a kick and that's a guaranteed kill. If they correctly DI away, they are offstage and forced to recover, but from a lower starting point than a bthrow, thus less options you need to cover.

2. Perfecthell4 is correct in saying that FoD is potentially her best stage in the MU. One thing I like to abuse on it that he didn't mention is that if they are on the platform above you, they can no longer SDI down and shield grab your upsmash. Upsmash becomes a much better defensive option. I find this especially useful in situations where a Fox is pressuring shield and the platform was too low and stops his SHFFL'd aerial or started moving down to that point, then you upsmash OoS and the strong hit almost always lands and sets up for a follow up. I imagine it'd be very hard to SDI it to the side on reaction, especially when you're used to SDIing it down. Not a gamebreaker, but a nice trick.

3. Campy fox. If they camp effectively, you will just lose, but there's some things to keep in mind. Don't just attack them. They are trying to force you to attack them, probably with a dash attack or kick, so don't. You want to just close in space and take center stage, because by camping, they are submitting it to you. You get close enough that you would be able to attack them in a hard, if not impossible, to react to approach and then dash dance or immediately run away. What you're trying to do is bait a nair/dair approach from them, which is even harder to react to, but you don't have to because you're baiting it out. If you think they are going to approach immediately once you get near (which a lot do), then you just immediately start running away and beat their aerial with a retreating bair. If you think they'll shield or keep lasering, then you dash dance in front of them and try to read their response, whether it be an action out of shield, or a retreat via platforms.

4. Nayru's OoS is only okay sometimes. I only use it in situations where it'd be hard to space a sweetspot kick OoS, I expect them to SDI upsmash correctly, and they are basically guaranteed to get knocked down by it. In any other case, it's a bad idea.

 

[TacoLord9000]

Thanks for the responses guys, I only just started to play melee with a competitive mindset a few months ago. I picked up Zelda because kicking people in the face is one of most satisfying things to do in this game. I'm quite aware that Sheik is a superior character to Zelda, but I don't really enjoy playing Sheik nor do I have much of a feel for the character. Once I feel comfortable enough with my use of advanced techniques in matches, I will probably try to enter a tournament and have fun. For some reason I enjoy playing lower tier characters for the most part. Though I'm aware that there is a certain barrier that you will hit against when you play against high tiers like Fox. However I feel if I learn this matchup then I should be able to learn the other high tier matchups. Though from what I've seen, the Sheik vs. Zelda matchup might be arguably the worst matchup in the game. Zelda vs. Fox looks tame compared to it.

 

[gijn]

Surprised people are recommending to spam bair and shield grab. You should never get a shield grab against fox and you shouldn't be jumping at all. only reason to jump is to get to platforms or to avoid laser spam. You should never use dins fire against a spacies either its so bad. Dins is only viable against samus...

You need to jab and dsmash a lot and wavedash fsmash/ftilt. You can try reading techs and naryus on top of them to push them to edge but you got to already have an understanding of how they are moving otherwise you will be punished heavily

Practice Sdi'ing fox uair as if you don't you will be chained to instant death

 

[Captain Zack]

wait for fox to make a mistake and punish basically.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

wait for fox to make a mistake and punish basically.

This. It's sad that it's basically all she can do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Surprised people are recommending to spam bair and shield grab. You should never get a shield grab against fox and you shouldn't be jumping at all. only reason to jump is to get to platforms or to avoid laser spam. You should never use dins fire against a spacies either its so bad. Dins is only viable against samus...

You need to jab and dsmash a lot and wavedash fsmash/ftilt. You can try reading techs and naryus on top of them to push them to edge but you got to already have an understanding of how they are moving otherwise you will be punished heavily

Practice Sdi'ing fox uair as if you don't you will be chained to instant death

Personally, I think shield grab is complete trash and should only be used against people that have demonstrated that they can't apply pressure correctly. But going for jc grabs in neutral is good because if you happen to land one, you should be able to convert into heavy damage or put them offstage. And if you miss, you aren't going to get punished nearly as hard unless you're like at kill percent from a usmash. I'm not saying spam grab in neutral. But because the risk/reward ratio is definitely in your favor, it is worth it to try and mindgame the grab. Like if you read a shield, grab that little *****. Grabbing is also strong if you knockdown Fox and go for a tech chase. It's especially good near the ledge or on a platform when they don't have as many places to tech.

I think you should only be jumping to get to platforms (like you said), to punish fox with reactive plays, and when Fox is far away. For example, if Fox whiffs a usmash or something and you're in range to do a rising bair/fair, you definitely want to take that free kick. Or you let them pressure you, shield DI that **** and bair oos. If Fox is far away, jumps can be safe because if he approaches, you kick and if he doesn't you waveland in and get some positioning. You could also waveland back to bait an approach and punish/pressure. You can also jump backwards and then double jump forward. Zelda's double jump makes her change trajectories very quickly. It catches a lot of people off guard.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

At high percents, I almost always dthrow (with the exception where bthrow will definitely kill at very high percents). If they DI in on dthrow, you get a kick and that's a guaranteed kill. If they correctly DI away, they are offstage and forced to recover, but from a lower starting point than a bthrow, thus less options you need to cover.

Was thinking about this today and I think you're spot on with the use of dthrow. But the bthrow does have uses near the ledge as a DI trap and conditioning tool. You dthrow kick them at one point. Next time they DI away and you bthrow them. Or you do it in the opposite order and bthrow first to condition survival DI so you can land that dthrow kick. I think the DI trap is a more realistic application because unfortunately the dthrow animation is so friggin long that it's really easy to react to it with the proper DI.

 

[Upke]

I will sometimes use bthrow as a DI mixup but it's usually reactable for most characters, so the dthrow is just safer in theory imo.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Up-smash out of shield is like the only good option, but Fox's short stature makes it harder to hit him and easier for him to smash DI out. Wavedashing out of shield can be an option, but since Zelda doesn't really have the ground speed to maneuver afterward, this loses effectiveness against a speedster like Fox.

In my days of experimenting with Zelda, I found that you can play a bit like Jiggs with Zelda, using jumps to move more than dashing. Although in fairness Puff's wavedash is much more useful than Zelda's. Jumping is mainly nice because it allows you to threaten with fair/bair without having to necessarily commit to it if Fox doesn't attack you. The painful thing is when Fox just runs away and lasers. It's not really feasible to catch him.

 

[Zone]

Pressure isn't only shield pressure.

You can pressure with spacing as well. Why is it that Fox will throw up a shield anytime he misses near you or isn't sure if he can hit you with a move but you're kind of close? Cuz you have tools he's afraid of. If he's afraid of something he's being pressured to be defensive.

It just depends if you have enough momentum or patience, to condition them to be afraid of your options. which isn't easy.

He's throwing up shield too because if hes a smart fox that knows this match up, he knows your grab is poopy.


If you're fighting a fox that doesn't know and he's approaching you a lot. You just need to be defensive and try to be a brick wall.

If he knows the matchup or is catching on to your brick wall. He'll start to laser camp you, and bait you to approach him. That's when it can get frustrating, but the answer is to sort of ignore his lasers, and make it seem like you're about to approach, but then don't.

I've been called out on this often and you can end up eating alot more laser damage if they sense that are you extremely afraid to approach. This matchup generally sucks a lot when they know it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Zelda is so slow on the ground, and her jump is low. Cornering Fox is next to impossible. You have to throw out moves as non-committally as possible and hope that Fox eventually runs into them (sort of like how Ganon fights Fox). Spacing is critical in the matchup.