Zelda Social Thread

[4tlas]

@ 4tlas I think it's a bit brash to say PMDT doesn't listen when Magus himself takes the time to reply to us all personally.

I am thrilled that Magus responds to us, but I have not once seen him respond to anything BUT defending Zelda's changelog or correcting misinformation. Though it does hint that he (and therefore maybe PMDT) might be listening, it is not very compelling evidence. I appreciate what he does, but it does not mean that it is satisfactory.

@ 4tlas
I never said din's was bad, I just said that it needs a slight buff and zelda needs to be faster to control space better that she gets. Also when I refer to people shielding it. They just dashdance shield stop while I cast out the dins on reaction and then I'm left open to them coming into my with my dins coming back and I have to wait which is why I hate the falcon match up or any dash dancer really because they exploit the time it takes to cast out dins.
The whole placing it out when your under pressure doesn't work if you're already pressured. It has a set distance to go and if they are already in your face you're just stuck there with no stage control and you don't cast another dins cause that will leave you open.

Of course it's still a decent option to cover space when you have time. So I'd just like it to compliment her a little more and that would be nice.

If you are pressured, that is not the time to use Dins. You are in a scenario where your opponent has wrestled stage control from you by never letting you place Dins in the first place, so it seems only appropriate that it be difficult for you to gain it back.

Falcon is not too bad because it is easy to stuff approaches with jab -> dash grab -> 0-to-death. A properly played Falcon will start to maneuver around that, at which point you can use Farore's and Dins because he is respecting your space. Its all a mindgame.

I think making the manual explosion easier to hit with was a nice touch. Now if there were some way to tell that Dins is disconnected and offscreen but able to be recalled so I don't recall instead of casting it, that would be great. Also the camera suddenly zooming out to find Dins is more annoying than 3.5 Dins camera ever was.

 

[4tlas]

My attitude has changed considerably over the last year with regards to debating PM, so I'd like to apologize for not treating our debates with the same amount of effort they deserve. After 3.5 changes and lots of arguing which seems to have gone entirely unnoticed by the PMDT, I sincerely do not feel that any change will happen because of our debates. As such, we are only debating for the sake of discussion. At this point, I don't think there is any point in talking about what changes we think should be done because that doesn't seem to do anything. Talking about Zelda's strengths and weaknesses and then letting PMDT decide whether they want to buff or nerf things seems more efficient.

Zelda is bad in a lot of respects and could probably afford to be improved. As mentioned, her jab is particularly slow and could be improved a little. But it is not nearly as bad as everyone keeps saying. Ftilt, while leading to better combos, starting faster, and reaching farther, does not last as long, does not cover high and low simultaneously, and is not as disjointed.

Dins also could be improved, but it is again much more useful than people are giving it credit for. Manual explosion does wonders for changing its travel pattern and making opponents afraid to clank it. The travel gives Zelda a situationally useful true projectile. Though it doesn't force opponents to come to her as well as old Dins, it works fine in tandem with normal footsies (which was obviously the PMDT's goal). The high shield damage of the move somewhat mitigates the fact that it can just be shielded, as usually you can approach on their weakened shield afterward, block their counterapproach with the travel arc, or teleport near the Dins to get a rotation which can again be manually detonated to perform some ridiculous pressure. Though it is possible to get some very nice conversions off of it, the reward for landing Dins does seem to be rather low unless it is an explosion (which may be the idea). Increasing the damage of the mine or travel wisp may make it more appreciable.

I think Zelda is a very solidly designed and balanced character with good strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately, other characters do not have as blatant weaknesses and thus she is "bad". At least for now though, that doesn't matter. The meta and overall skill level of top players is constantly changing, so work on playing smarter than your opponent and even if you cant win with Zelda, at least you can feel good about playing well.

 

[Arcalyth]

After taking some of the jab comments into consideration and playing with it against real opponents I think it could stand to launch at a slightly higher angle so that it doesn't auto-reset your positioning as soon as your opponent gets hit with it. Other than that I don't think it needs speed tweaks, because decreasing the startup without increasing the endlag would be too strong, and increasing the endlag would break a good amount of Jab's utility.

I agree, 4tlas, that trying to get her changed isn't the answer. Trying to get good with the character and discussing how to do so is a much better idea. Hater are gonna hate lol, just play well and win.

Btw to whoever said Zhime is the only Zelda that places well, take a look at Oracle as well.
I didn't go to Shatter cause I'm broke, but after looking at the bracket there's no way I wouldn't have made top 5-10 easy. My state kinda pooped on Ohio

 

[WhiteCrow]

Trying to get good with the character and discussing how to do so is a much better idea. Hater are gonna hate.

Been saying this for a while, I'm glad other folks share the sentiment. Pessimism breeds negativity, and there's enough negativity on our forums.

 

[Downdraft]

After taking some of the jab comments into consideration and playing with it against real opponents I think it could stand to launch at a slightly higher angle so that it doesn't auto-reset your positioning as soon as your opponent gets hit with it. Other than that I don't think it needs speed tweaks, because decreasing the startup without increasing the endlag would be too strong, and increasing the endlag would break a good amount of Jab's utility.

I agree, 4tlas, that trying to get her changed isn't the answer. Trying to get good with the character and discussing how to do so is a much better idea. Hater are gonna hate lol, just play well and win.

Btw to whoever said Zhime is the only Zelda that places well, take a look at Oracle as well.
I didn't go to Shatter cause I'm broke, but after looking at the bracket there's no way I wouldn't have made top 5-10 easy. My state kinda pooped on Ohio

I skimmed my posts and didn't see that statement, but I'm sure I've expressed similar sentiments. I've watched Oracle's wins from the 3.5 Top Player thread; however, those videos aren't recent, and I've been told that Oracle has dropped the character, which would help explain why there haven't been any videos of Oracle having major victories as Zelda recently. Now why would he drop Zelda if he was enjoying real success with her? He plays ROB and has dabbled in Wolf too. Both are considered high tier at a minimum. Both characters are far more viable than Zelda too. I don't know why he put Zelda on the back burner or outright dropped her, but it wouldn't be far fetched to imagine that he dropped her because she either took way too much effort to succeed with at a high level or just wasn't good enough to contend with his competition. Both sentiments suggest poor design and that the character might not be good. It would have been interesting to see him contend with Zelda in 3.02 when some of PM's greatest players ever actually supported the game.

 

[Sardonyx]

Hello gorls, I have returned

My biggest gripe with Zelda is how thrown together she feels, and that will always be my biggest problem.

I have no problem playing a "low tier" character (Zelda's like bottom of mid tier and MAYBE, MAYYBBEEEE top of low tier imo) as long as they're fun to play as. I main Elizabeth in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, and she's widely considered bottom tier, but at least she feels well designed and you know what they were going for when they made her. Sure she struggles in a lot of matchups, but she feels good. Zelda does not feel well designed to me.

She feels like the DT just wanted to remove her "jank" from 3.02 Zelda to appease how much she was complained about, then left to fend for herself in a corner. Unless someone can prove to me that she's well designed, my opinion will not change.

 

[4tlas]

Hello gorls, I have returned

My biggest gripe with Zelda is how thrown together she feels, and that will always be my biggest problem.

I have no problem playing a "low tier" character (Zelda's like bottom of mid tier and MAYBE, MAYYBBEEEE top of low tier imo) as long as they're fun to play as. I main Elizabeth in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, and she's widely considered bottom tier, but at least she feels well designed and you know what they were going for when they made her. Sure she struggles in a lot of matchups, but she feels good. Zelda does not feel well designed to me.

She feels like the DT just wanted to remove her "jank" from 3.02 Zelda to appease how much she was complained about, then left to fend for herself in a corner. Unless someone can prove to me that she's well designed, my opinion will not change.

I agree they removed all "jank" and, aside from the telecancel and Dins which are at least useful in their own way, she was left where she lay. I'm not sure what you mean by thrown together or what you define as well designed. I think she's one of the best designed characters in the game in many ways. What is bad in your eyes?

 

[Downdraft]

http://smashboards.com/threads/your-honest-thoughts-regarding-3-5-3-6-beta-zelda.409993/

 

[Sardonyx]

I agree they removed all "jank" and, aside from the telecancel and Dins which are at least useful in their own way, she was left where she lay. I'm not sure what you mean by thrown together or what you define as well designed. I think she's one of the best designed characters in the game in many ways. What is bad in your eyes?

What type of character is she supposed to be? What do they want her to be? They seem to be stuck with what they want her to be, so she's turned into "generic magic character"
She's supposed to be defensive, yet they nerf her defensive options
They want more offensive play and more player interaction, but don't boost her offense

With Elizabeth it's very obvious she's a heavy zoning character. She has a lot of full screen attacks and long ranged attacks and can control space(though she can't do these things very well because of some game mechanics they're hopefully fixing).

Is Zelda a zoner? Is she a glass cannon? Or should she stay that generic combo character that has become more boring to play as?

 

[4tlas]

What type of character is she supposed to be? What do they want her to be? They seem to be stuck with what they want her to be, so she's turned into "generic magic character"
She's supposed to be defensive, yet they nerf her defensive options
They want more offensive play and more player interaction, but don't boost her offense

With Elizabeth it's very obvious she's a heavy zoning character. She has a lot of full screen attacks and long ranged attacks and can control space(though she can't do these things very well because of some game mechanics they're hopefully fixing).

Is Zelda a zoner? Is she a glass cannon? Or should she stay that generic combo character that has become more boring to play as?

Ah, you're talking about how PMDT has changed her playstyle. Though I prefer 3.02 and prior's direction for Zelda, I don't think every character needs to occupy such an extreme niche as to be classifiable. Perhaps she is supposed to be some combination of zoner and glass cannon? Perhaps, because she has a little of everything, she is well designed?

Personally, I would classify her as THE stage control monster of this game. She has the ability to zone off an area with Dins and with her own body, and teleport allows her to quickly move her body to the most advantageous stage position. Furthermore, she can evade other character's stage control strangleholds with teleport as well.

When I said she was well designed, I was just talking about Sakurai's original design for Zelda. Aside from Dins and just having ****ty frame data everywhere, I think she was fine. Giving her more options with Dins and giving her the teleport cancel (either version) were great ideas for giving Zelda some extra tools to encourage her to do things other than constantly space lightning kicks and pray. But still, the original design feels very "Zelda-y" to me. As I have said before, Zelda is wise and graceful, and those traits come through in her slow movement and precise sweetspot hitboxes. She should be tricky and punish opponents hard when she can predict their movements, and I think she still does those things well. I can agree she is having some tools taken away from her which are odd choices (Nayru's invuln why), but at least it isn't SD Remix yet!

 

[otheusrex]

I can sort of agree with that in that she has a lot of trade offs that seem sensible, but there are a lot of other characters that are also sensible but in different ways and it doesn't really leaf to equality.i think Zelda isn't as powerful or capable of dealing as many of the other characters and this is why there's so much disagreement about her design, since its not necessarily that she had nothing going for her.

What I think really happened is that Zelda is a clear concept character, thus, it's easier to stick to a mold with her and trim the fat, so to speak. But there are some other characters whom it seems the pmdt had no clear concept of (mario for an ex) and he was simply improved in various ways since virtually every character was improved in some way. This results in a handful of characters without true weaknesses according to typical smash rules and has more or less become an excuse for improving the characters that do have blindspots in ways that they can deal with them. The power creep of PM is more or less continued but it's pivoted around different axes. This is going to continue to happen until someone comes up with an accurate, comprehensive, and structured method for assessing each character's capabilities and weaknesses in an objective way.

 

[4tlas]

Anybody coming to Blacklisted? I'd love to meet some of you!

 

[Arcalyth]

Found another Zelda that's doing some great work
Here's a Colorodo Smash GFs set featuring our favorite Princess... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D4a4rkxRWE

 

[WhiteCrow]

Found another Zelda that's doing some great work
Here's a Colorodo Smash GFs set featuring our favorite Princess... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D4a4rkxRWE

Pfft, switched to Roy, shun the non believer! Seriously though, Just is an upcoming Ike threat, so props to Romance. Just used to live in Washington and I always wanted to fight him. After seeing this I think he really doesn't understand the Zelda match up haha.

 

[Arcalyth]

I watched another video, same matchup and players and tournament where he went straight Zelda and won in game 5.

My biggest critiques for Romance would be... needs more teleport, uair, dtilt, ftilt. Though ftilt isn't as easy to land vs Ike so I don't blame him for that one. I cringed at a lot of missed uair opportunities though, and the fact that the neutral game (in the other video I had watched) was almost exactly the same every reset (needs more teleport).

 

[drsusredfish]

finally got internet back. I got one problem with 3.6b zelda. Her din detonate still needs some refining.

The way it works right now is while the din is moving side b again, after about 11 frames the din stops then the hit box disappears then the din explodes.

The way it is now trying to detonate the explosion still leads to hitting with the moving hittbox by accident because it still moves with the hitbox up during those 11 frame thus wasting time trying to side b since you can't detonate if the moving hitbox hits.

The way it should work is frame 1 of pressing side b again the hit box should disappear. Frame 11 the din stops moving. then it explodes.

With this change accidentally hitting the moving hitbox won't happen. the din will keep on moving with out a hit box for 11 frames but this makes it so you can basically place the explosion right on top of the opponent instead of just hitting with the edge.

also optional but not necessary the din could us a visual indicator for when it is about to run out. like a smoke trail begins to form.

also in addition to having the graphic on zelda's hand indicating that she is synced with the din can the din get maybe a "i'm desynced " graphic. I rarely notice the graphic on zeldas hand because i'm focusing on the ball of firey death.

 

[4tlas]

finally got internet back. I got one problem with 3.6b zelda. Her din detonate still needs some refining.

The way it works right now is while the din is moving side b again, after about 11 frames the din stops then the hit box disappears then the din explodes.

The way it is now trying to detonate the explosion still leads to hitting with the moving hittbox by accident because it still moves with the hitbox up during those 11 frame thus wasting time trying to side b since you can't detonate if the moving hitbox hits.

The way it should work is frame 1 of pressing side b again the hit box should disappear. Frame 11 the din stops moving. then it explodes.

With this change accidentally hitting the moving hitbox won't happen. the din will keep on moving with out a hit box for 11 frames but this makes it so you can basically place the explosion right on top of the opponent instead of just hitting with the edge.

also optional but not necessary the din could us a visual indicator for when it is about to run out. like a smoke trail begins to form.

also in addition to having the graphic on zelda's hand indicating that she is synced with the din can the din get maybe a "i'm desynced " graphic. I rarely notice the graphic on zeldas hand because i'm focusing on the ball of firey death.

I agree with most of this. I like the graphic on her hand, since if I'm looking at her I'm not looking at the ball, but if I'm looking at the ball I can see its trajectory isn't linked. What she really needs is a graphic to tell her Dins is still recallable but unlinked, because I am so sick of it being off the top of the screen but not gone and then I recall instead of casting a new one and everyone ******* because the camera zooms waaaaaay out.

I'm pretty good with nicking people with the edge of Dins though. I think you'd still want to do that because that way you get a double hit with the wisp after.

 

[drsusredfish]

I'm pretty good with nicking people with the edge of Dins though. I think you'd still want to do that because that way you get a double hit with the wisp after.

Using dins that way wouldn't change at all with the suggestions i said because the timing would be the same. if you were going to get the doulbe hit the old way you'd still get the double hit with the new din if you time it the same way. the only difference is you can't accidently hit with moving din while trying to detonate you are basically guaranted an explosion.

 

[4tlas]

Using dins that way wouldn't change at all with the suggestions i said because the timing would be the same. if you were going to get the doulbe hit the old way you'd still get the double hit with the new din if you time it the same way. the only difference is you can't accidently hit with moving din while trying to detonate you are basically guaranted an explosion.

I wasn't saying it would take away the ability to do it, I was saying that the optimal play pattern is already available. More options is a buff though, and one that I think she needs.

 

[Arcalyth]

TIL DD>moonwalk with Zelda is amazing and practical.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Update on the organization project: I have contacted the PMDT members Xiivi mentioned about helping us with organizing our character subforum. I'm waiting to hear back from them. Keep your fingers crossed!

 

[Strong Badam]

Update on the organization project: I have contacted the PMDT members Xiivi mentioned about helping us with organizing our character subforum. I'm waiting to hear back from them. Keep your fingers crossed!

Hello!

 

[Sardonyx]

Hello!

OH MAH GAAAHHH HI. I didn't think you visited these boards that often. Welcome!!!!

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Hello!

Spoiler*
Strong Bad may have been one of said PMDT members/moderators I was referring to above.

Spoiler**
He may also have asked me to inform all of you that we can use the report button to include a link to our Q&A thread when players come in creating single question threads. The moderators will come in to lock the thread and provide the poster with that link.

Spoiler***
You may already be able to see some of the beginning steps to the organization project by examining our Zelda main page thread. Look at the stickied threads.

 

[Strong Badam]

OH MAH GAAAHHH HI. I didn't think you visited these boards that often. Welcome!!!!

I am everywhere, and nowhere, at once.

 

[Arcalyth]

So if Transform were to be removed in the next patch, what should Zelda's down-b be instead?

Last night I thought Zelda could get a burst movement option on her down-B like Lucario's double team, except it doesn't have invulnerability and it's JC-able.

IMO hew new down-B should be something movement-based rather than attack based. Something to help her be a liiiitle more offensive. Someone suggested a while back that we add a little more of a lunge to her dash attack in order to help her burst movement and I thought that was a very reasonable suggestion, so that's where I thought of a motion-based down-B. I think if she had that, then she wouldn't need said dash attack change.

Okay, so I'm imagining what this move would look like.
She launches forward, surrounded in the full diamond of Nayru's Love. It has one big hitbox that surrounds her body (mostly, it's still vulnerable especially from behind) and does maybe 5% at a 50-60 degree angle with enough BKB and KBG that it only combos directly at like 40-70%, otherwise it forces a reset. The closest analogy for how it looks that I can think of is Platinum-the-Trinity's Mami Circular (the heart thing) from BlazBlue. The move is jump-cancellable 3 frames after startup until the attack lands. If the attack whiffs you can't jump cancel, but on hit the attack will leave Zelda in the air like Peach Bomber (which I suppose is actually a better analogy than Mami Circular lol)

Thoughts?

 

[4tlas]

So if Transform were to be removed in the next patch, what should Zelda's down-b be instead?

Last night I thought Zelda could get a burst movement option on her down-B like Lucario's double team, except it doesn't have invulnerability and it's JC-able.

IMO hew new down-B should be something movement-based rather than attack based. Something to help her be a liiiitle more offensive. Someone suggested a while back that we add a little more of a lunge to her dash attack in order to help her burst movement and I thought that was a very reasonable suggestion, so that's where I thought of a motion-based down-B. I think if she had that, then she wouldn't need said dash attack change.

Okay, so I'm imagining what this move would look like.
She launches forward, surrounded in the full diamond of Nayru's Love. It has one big hitbox that surrounds her body (mostly, it's still vulnerable especially from behind) and does maybe 5% at a 50-60 degree angle with enough BKB and KBG that it only combos directly at like 40-70%, otherwise it forces a reset. The closest analogy for how it looks that I can think of is Platinum-the-Trinity's Mami Circular (the heart thing) from BlazBlue. The move is jump-cancellable 3 frames after startup until the attack lands. If the attack whiffs you can't jump cancel, but on hit the attack will leave Zelda in the air like Peach Bomber (which I suppose is actually a better analogy than Mami Circular lol)

Thoughts?

Numbers can always be adjusted, its only the base concept that needs to be critiqued. Zelda has a burst movement option (telecancel), but lacks a SUDDEN burst option to get past walls. Dash attack is supposed to be that type of move and can be easily retooled to perform that function. Other burst movement feels wrong for Zelda, both in terms of flavor and playstyle.

A new downB should not be extremely useful or impactful since it would 1) buff her, 2) change her playstyle, and 3) annoy opponents. A simple but effective option is to give her a fairy to heal her akin to Ivy's Synthesis. This forces opponents to somewhat approach, doesn't increase her power level considerably (forcing an approach may be enough), and doesn't annoy opponents because it isn't preventing them from doing whatever they want (unless that thing is outcamp Zelda zzzzzzz).

I would literally quit PM if they removed Transform though. I'm just giving suggestions because I want them to use the best thing possible, which is hopefully keeping Transform. If they put it on a taunt that would already significantly nerf Sheilda since you can't Transform midair which is safest and lets you use momentum glitches.

 

[Arcalyth]

I think retooling dash attack is an excellent idea but not if Transform is removed, because like you said adding in a new move is going to inherently be a buff and we still want a balanced, not overpowered character.

I can't really think of anything better than a movement-based down-B. I think adding another projectile or some kind of defensive move (a la Counter or Mirror Shield) wouldn't really *give* her anything that she doesn't already have. As far as changing her playstyle, it wouldn't in such a way that it would be jarring. For most Zeldas, we are simply adding and not taking away. For Sheildas (which I am one, myself), we're obviously taking away that option.

I've always been adamant on not removing Transform but the more that I play nowadays is the less that I can justify it. First off, the same split was made to Pokemon Trainer and Samus/ZSS. By this precedent alone, Sheik and Zelda should be separate characters. "Because Melee" held a lot more weight prior to 3.0 which was (and really still is) the primary argument to why Transform should stay. I would also argue that Sheik gains far more by Transforming than Zelda does. I think the primary use of Transform (as well as the most legitimate use, from a "good gameplay" standpoint) is to boost Sheik's recovery. Transform is situationally useful but overall is not a very good strategy because of how awfully vulnerable you are before and after Transform. Being proficient with both characters is moot. I also don't think that Sheik/Zelda has such a widely varying matchup spread that Transforming covers matchup holes.

The other big thing that Transform does is negate Snake's C4. Transform is huge in that matchup, but in that matchup alone.

If we were to keep Transform I think that a mobile Din's Fire should explode on Transform just like a stationary one does. But overall I think there are fewer and fewer reasons to keep it, and instead we should give tools to both characters that can address the remaining issues in their respective designs.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

@ Arcalyth Like I said over @ Sheik boards. If you want more burst movement, Farore's Wind could be retooled to do that. I don't really see the point of her essentially having two teleports.
If Transformed were to be removed for another move, think of something Zelda needs that she doesn't already have that would compliment her kit. It would be a buff yes, but it would be an understandable and more enjoyable buff if it fits her mold as the "Defensive Mage" type. I'd ask you guys first before I begin to suggest things; So where is Zelda lacking the most?

 

[Arcalyth]

Literally in sudden burst movement/approach options at midrange. She's pretty much fine everywhere else. At long range she has FW and Din's, at just-under-midrange she has ftilt and dash attack, and anything inside that she will wreck you.

I thought about Farore's but retooling that would make her OP. The way to make it work for the "sudden burst movement" would be to reduce the startup of Farore's Wind and I'm pretty sure you could understand why that wouldn't be a good idea. (She can get literally from any point on stage to any other point with telecancel, and I don't want to lose telecancel by getting less startup, in the interest of balance)

The difference I'm trying to describe with my proposed down-B is that it will always travel in the same arc and distance, so it's punishable if misused or misspaced but still provides the burst mobility that she's missing. Basically what I have in my head is a fusion of PM Lucario's Down B and Peach Bomber with a jump cancel and Nayru's Love graphics. Something linear(ish), not a teleport.

 

[4tlas]

I think retooling dash attack is an excellent idea but not if Transform is removed, because like you said adding in a new move is going to inherently be a buff and we still want a balanced, not overpowered character.

I can't really think of anything better than a movement-based down-B. I think adding another projectile or some kind of defensive move (a la Counter or Mirror Shield) wouldn't really *give* her anything that she doesn't already have. As far as changing her playstyle, it wouldn't in such a way that it would be jarring. For most Zeldas, we are simply adding and not taking away. For Sheildas (which I am one, myself), we're obviously taking away that option.

I've always been adamant on not removing Transform but the more that I play nowadays is the less that I can justify it. First off, the same split was made to Pokemon Trainer and Samus/ZSS. By this precedent alone, Sheik and Zelda should be separate characters. "Because Melee" held a lot more weight prior to 3.0 which was (and really still is) the primary argument to why Transform should stay. I would also argue that Sheik gains far more by Transforming than Zelda does. I think the primary use of Transform (as well as the most legitimate use, from a "good gameplay" standpoint) is to boost Sheik's recovery. Transform is situationally useful but overall is not a very good strategy because of how awfully vulnerable you are before and after Transform. Being proficient with both characters is moot. I also don't think that Sheik/Zelda has such a widely varying matchup spread that Transforming covers matchup holes.

The other big thing that Transform does is negate Snake's C4. Transform is huge in that matchup, but in that matchup alone.

If we were to keep Transform I think that a mobile Din's Fire should explode on Transform just like a stationary one does. But overall I think there are fewer and fewer reasons to keep it, and instead we should give tools to both characters that can address the remaining issues in their respective designs.

Pokemon Trainer had transform removed because it only went in one direction, while Samus lost hers because we don't play with competitive final smashes. I don't think that sets a precedent for Zelda/Sheik.

The only legitimate reason I can think of to remove Transform outright is Snake's C4. Everything else can be fixed by adjusting the move without removing it.

There are plenty of reasons to use Transform other than switching to the better matchup. The characters have different neutrals, different combo potentials, different combo/kill weights, different edgeguard tools, and different recoveries. The reasons for using Transform are often what make people so upset it exists, because it actually does a lot. However, none of those things are inherently bad things. There's nothing wrong with having a character with 2 modes, the problem lies in the ability to play only 1 mode but whichever is better. Remove that part, and Zelda, Sheik, and Sheilda will all be fine.

The options for that are 1) putting limitations on Transform such as always starting stocks as the CSS selected character (plus something to prevent immediate switch), 2) putting Transform on taunt so its very situational but Zelda and Sheik can each have new moves (Sheik can lose chain first though), and/or 3) making a new Zelda and new Sheik that each have full toolkits and don't Transform, and then maybe also make Sheilda more intertwined. I think these are all better ways to handle the situation than removing Transform outright.

 

[Arcalyth]

There are plenty of reasons to use Transform other than switching to the better matchup. The characters have different neutrals, different combo potentials, different combo/kill weights, different edgeguard tools, and different recoveries.

So basically what you're saying is that they're two separate characters.

I'll agree that those aren't inherently bad things, but I think there IS something wrong with selecting two characters at the same time. No other character can do anything remotely close to that. It unlocks 2x the moves for each character and the only thing that gates it is a long startup. Why would you ever want to transform outside of recovery or for style? For the sake of argument, is transforming for example to land a Zelda bthrow when Sheik can't land a tilt>fair due to her opponent's high percent actually a good move or would it be better to simply camp needles until a stray hit will kill? A smart opponent is either going to punish transform directly or gain stage control while you wait. Lots of people seem to get baited by the startup but this says more about the deductive abilities of the opponent than the viability of the move.

The options for that are 1) putting limitations on Transform such as always starting stocks as the CSS selected character (plus something to prevent immediate switch), 2) putting Transform on taunt so its very situational but Zelda and Sheik can each have new moves (Sheik can lose chain first though), and/or 3) making a new Zelda and new Sheik that each have full toolkits and don't Transform, and then maybe also make Sheilda more intertwined. I think these are all better ways to handle the situation than removing Transform outright.

I think for 1 you might as well just remove transform.

For 2, I think it would make the characters OP for the reasons above (2x the moves for no reason other than Melee precedent)

For 3, I think it's more work than it's worth to clone Sheilda just to have Sheilda. Having a modal character would be cool if that character was designed that way from the ground up. Something like Tara from Soul Calibur.

 

[4tlas]

So basically what you're saying is that they're two separate characters.

I'll agree that those aren't inherently bad things, but I think there IS something wrong with selecting two characters at the same time. No other character can do anything remotely close to that. It unlocks 2x the moves for each character and the only thing that gates it is a long startup. Why would you ever want to transform outside of recovery or for style? For the sake of argument, is transforming for example to land a Zelda bthrow when Sheik can't land a tilt>fair due to her opponent's high percent actually a good move or would it be better to simply camp needles until a stray hit will kill? A smart opponent is either going to punish transform directly or gain stage control while you wait. Lots of people seem to get baited by the startup but this says more about the deductive abilities of the opponent more than the viability of the move.



I think for 1 you might as well just remove transform.

For 2, I think it would make the characters OP for the reasons above (2x the moves for no reason other than Melee precedent)

For 3, I think it's more work than it's worth to clone Sheilda just to have Sheilda. Having a modal character would be cool if that character was designed that way from the ground up. Something like Tara from Soul Calibur.

No, what I'm saying is each half has distinctive attributes. I play them like one character, I switch for a subset of those attributes on a dime. I do in fact switch to Sheik just to have a different edgeguard (not better, I use it when I think they will go high and stay Zelda otherwise), switch to Zelda to play a slower neutral so I can see my opponent's patterns, switch to Sheik to have a quicker neutral so I can hit-and-run, switch to Zelda to recover far, and switch to Sheik to recover high/low (depending).

I play against smart opponents, I just have to play smart to Transform at a safe time that I want to switch modes during. It happens pretty frequently.

Option 1 is nothing like removing Transform. All it does is prevent players from picking Zelda at the CSS and then playing the whole matchup as Sheik (and vice versa). It does not affect Sheilda play much. Since this character swap is what irks people the most, its a clear candidate for adjustment.

Option 2 I don't like much either.

Option 3 is not a problem. I am suggesting that Sheilda be redesigned from the ground up, yes. And the cloning is not hard, they already have the slots. Making a new character is hard, but they already have the models and good animations to start working from if any of the moveset is to stay the same (which I imagine it would, but Transforming would occur much more frequently and perhaps be forced or attached to other scenarios).

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Literally in sudden burst movement/approach options at midrange. She's pretty much fine everywhere else. At long range she has FW and Din's, at just-under-midrange she has ftilt and dash attack, and anything inside that she will wreck you.

I thought about Farore's but retooling that would make her OP. The way to make it work for the "sudden burst movement" would be to reduce the startup of Farore's Wind and I'm pretty sure you could understand why that wouldn't be a good idea. (She can get literally from any point on stage to any other point with telecancel, and I don't want to lose telecancel by getting less startup, in the interest of balance)

The difference I'm trying to describe with my proposed down-B is that it will always travel in the same arc and distance, so it's punishable if misused or misspaced but still provides the burst mobility that she's missing. Basically what I have in my head is a fusion of PM Lucario's Down B and Peach Bomber with a jump cancel and Nayru's Love graphics. Something linear(ish), not a teleport.

Okay. I don't think she really needs that as a defensive zoner. I believe her having an uncomfortable zone under mid range is pretty understandable. At that point you should be concentrating on punishing, not being an aggressor; Zelda's not built for that in CQC. Farore's a pretty good move upon some inspection. Personally I feel like the invulnerability could be moved to before the hitbox, but I assume people would whine about that. It could then be used as a decent escape option at close range and a high risk approach option as well. (Teleporting in place could be abuseable too).

I say give her a pillar move or something that knocks opponents in the air. Zoners love pillar moves. Thing is, what can you even reference from LoZ that justifies that?

 

[Downdraft]

For the purposes of design, I think it'd be useful if we theorized changes with respect to specific matchups. What improvement would help Zelda tremendously versus Star Fox characters? What improvement would help her versus Fire Emblem characters? What improvement would help her get in on characters with stellar projectile games, i.e. Toon Link, Link, and Samus? What improvement would help her versus characters like Captain Falcon, Pit, and Meta Knight that can actually combo her hard and have near guaranteed setups into kills? These are rhetorical questions, but they are the ones I think need to be asked when talking about how Zelda only needs slight buffs or changes to a couple of attacks, which I believe to be false. She loses to multiple strategies and distinct character playstyles, so it'd take more than a couple of changes such as improved mobility or a better Din's to fix her substantially. IMO, she'll always be short of high tier as long as she retains low tier movement options, but she definitely can be improved to the point where she doesn't have to be 5x more careful than or work 5x as hard as her opponent to have similar success in particular matchups at a high level.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

For the purposes of design, I think it'd be useful if we theorized changes with respect to specific matchups. What improvement would help Zelda tremendously versus Star Fox characters? What improvement would help her versus Fire Emblem characters? What improvement would help her get in on characters with stellar projectile games, i.e. Toon Link, Link, and Samus? What improvement would help her versus characters like Captain Falcon, Pit, and Meta Knight that can actually combo her hard and have near guaranteed setups into kills? These are rhetorical questions, but they are the ones I think need to be asked when talking about how Zelda only needs slight buffs or changes to a couple of attacks, which I believe to be false. She loses to multiple strategies and distinct character playstyles, so it'd take more than a couple of changes such as improved mobility or a better Din's to fix her substantially. IMO, she'll always be short of high tier as long as she retains low tier movement options, but she definitely can be improved to the point where she doesn't have to be 5x more careful than or work 5x as hard as her opponent to have similar success in particular matchups at a high level.

IMO, designing by MU would make you go mad during the process and you may just end up with Fox as Zelda. So just let her play her role the best she can. The best and most reasonable route to take imo, because she doesn't have to be good at everything. I was invited to the conversation and you guys are the Zeldas though, so enlighten me more.

 

[Downdraft]

IMO, designing by MU would make you go mad during the process and you may just end up with Fox as Zelda. So just let her play her role the best she can. The best and most reasonable route to take imo, because she doesn't have to be good at everything. I was invited to the conversation and you guys are the Zeldas though, so enlighten me more.

I don't want her to be good at everything, and I didn't mean to design necessarily for sets of matchups. Taking your idea, she could be given options that help cover most if not all her weaknesses while still being high commitment or punishable. I would never advocate for anything free, but Zelda's problem is that there is super effective counterplay that a lot of the cast can apply. Then there's a ton of matchup specific counterplay on top of that. I don't think focusing on general flaws will do much for the character if she still struggles against projectile pressure, disjoint, short characters, etc.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I don't want her to be good at everything, and I didn't mean to design necessarily for sets of matchups. Taking your idea, she could be given options that help cover most if not all her weaknesses while still being high commitment or punishable. I would never advocate for anything free, but Zelda's problem is that there is super effective counterplay that a lot of the cast can apply. Then there's a ton of matchup specific counterplay on top of that. I don't think focusing on general flaws will do much for the character if she still struggles against projectile pressure, disjoint, short characters, etc.

Polishing her strengths is very good path to take, I agree. How does she suffer from projectile pressure, I'm curious? I thought Nyaru's Love would be the answer, from your post it doesn't always end that way.
How would you feel if Farore's was only invulnerable before the hitbox came out?

 

[4tlas]

Polishing her strengths is very good path to take, I agree. How does she suffer from projectile pressure, I'm curious? I thought Nyaru's Love would be the answer, from your post it doesn't always end that way.
How would you feel if Farore's was only invulnerable before the hitbox came out?

She is slow and Nayrus takes a lot of commitment. Opponents can usually shield their own projectile and still get to her before she can act again.

I'm not sure what you mean about Farore's?

 

[Downdraft]

Polishing her strengths is very good path to take, I agree. How does she suffer from projectile pressure, I'm curious? I thought Nyaru's Love would be the answer, from your post it doesn't always end that way.
How would you feel if Farore's was only invulnerable before the hitbox came out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUmpctKUKEw
Lunchables admitted that he didn't play the matchup great, but you can see just how bad projectile pressure can be versus one of the best two Zeldas of 3.5. Nayru's is good on the boomerang, useless versus bombs, and questionable versus arrows. Toon Link and Link have swords and Z-airs on top of that. Samus can box out Zelda with Z-air too. If Samus shoots missiles at the right height, reflecting them won't threaten her space. She also has Charge Shot, which can followup a missile. The projectiles keep Zelda at a range and force her to approach with her underwhelming approach options. If she succeeds at getting in, she'll only get a few hits on Samus due to Samus's floaty nature before the situation resets. She has to get in on Samus multiple times per stock while being wary of Samus's benefits as a heavyweight and Samus's kill power. She has good combos versus Link, but only a well spaced U-air will beat D-air and getting hit will either kill Zelda or put her in a disadvantageous position that either forces her to get in again or be setup for an edgeguard, so she has to play it safe with vertical juggles. Zelda doesn't combo Toon Link as well and it can be difficult to grab him or hit with combo starters such as U-smash and U-tilt when he's typically on the ground.

If I understand you correctly, Farore's would work worse as an escape option and combo starter than LC Nayru's.