Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Kofu]

So the day after the DLC came out I woke up with Looker's theme in my head. Couldn't figure out why until I was playing on UCT and heard Let's Hit the Climax. The intro of the latter song reminded me of the intro to the first (and I guess they both have an air of intrigue). Compare:

They're not super close or anything but enough that one evoked memories of the other.

Magnet hands baby.

Corrin kind of floats at the peak of his Up-B and has very good weaving until he lands. Thought this was going to be about Falcon's dash grab at first tbh.

I can't complain. I got my buffs. FE too strong.

Can I rip this post violently out of the forums? Maybe this user too. And Sakurai's blatant FE fanboyism while I'm at it.

I debated just "fixing" this post but its atrocity is too extreme.

 

[Y2Kay]

How you make the best of both worlds @FullMoon

 

[Lil Puddin]

I think there may be just 1 more patch later down the line. Just to address the little glitches (Corrin's grab on ZSS for instance) and other easy fixes. It'd be nice if they were like...

DevPerson: Oh, hey, RyeMan I found this wierd glitch I think. Left over files maybe?
RyeMan: Hey, yeah, what is that?
DevPerson: It seems to be a series of values and files for... Zelda? Left over fragments, perhaps?
RyeMan: Zelda... Zelda... Zelda? Um...
BalanceLover: The character in the game. Zel-DUH, you guys. You forgot because she's fundamentally bad/broken.
RyeMan: Oh. Right. Wow. She looks so awful just by glancing at the stats. lol who even helped develop her
*Room goes silent*
DevPerson: Anyway! I googled her and, like, everyone and their blind grandmas say she's awful too.
CompetitiveDev: Yea, in the comp scene she performs hilariously poor. Except. Like. Maybe spot 20-30 in FFA/Teams lmao.
AmiiboGuy: She's also an awful Amiibo AI. We just can't make her good, even with button reading and perfect frame executions.
RyeMan: Oh. Here's the problem! It's so obvious. Let's just fix these super simple things by making them faster and/or stronger! I mean, she is a glass cannon with crappy speed. May as well make her useful, you know, like how we did with M2.
Everyone: Sakurai is the bestest and smartest leader! Perfectest balance, yes!
BalanceLover: While we're at it, can we adjust some weight values and other base va-
RyeMan: BTW Nerf Greninja bcuz why not? That's all.
BalanceLover: Um, maybe we could at least buff Jiggl-
RyeMan: That's. All.
*Palutena busts through the office window on a flying motorcycle. He hops on and DOESN'T put on a helmet bcuz he's the baddest bad boy around and if he died Palutena could just bring him back to life anyway. Then they ride off into the sunset then up above the clouds so high like a diamond in the sky to do what Sakrai likes doing with Palutena.*

*Which is playing the various co-op Kirby games with her.*

And everyone lived happily ever after except Ganondorf because he became the lowest tier last place guy. True evil will never prevail, Ganondork.

I really didn't think that the cessation of development on Sm4sh would be this bittersweet.

I'm a little disappointed that certain characters (especially Zelda) didn't get all of their issues fixed, but overall, the development team did a fantastic job with this installment of Smash.

Now that patches are over, the metagame can finally advance without worry of nerfs or techniques being removed. Since Sheik somehow managed to avoid any meaningful nerfs throughout the entire patch history, it seems as if she'll be our overlord for the rest of eternity.

I'm excited to see where the metagame takes us in the future.

Sakurai did an amazing job with this game, and I hope his well-deserved vacation is as relaxing as possible.

Y'know, I'm still impressed that this game has nearly 60 characters and is actually one of the most balanced fighters out there for 1v1, teams, and FFAs. I am very disappointed with the treatment of Zelda, but oh well. She is viable in a very loose sense of the word. I have a theory she is mainly for teams(well duh everyone knows that), but more importantly, is kind of a learning character. Which is funny bcuz wisdumb trifierce.

Fighting as Zelda, you learn:
Spacing and being slow
Precision and not working with much space
Reading and moves with really bad frame data, leaving no room for error
Capitalizing on mistakes
Shielding/dodging at the perfect time because, again, no room for error
Grabbing at the perfect time because ^

Fighting against Zelda, you learn:
Pretty much all the above, except there's plenty of room for error. Thus making her a really good attacking punching bag so you can start learning the basics of your character from the very bottom then work your way up.

So that way you can feel better about her being trash unable to properly wield her incredible amount of sass, because it's for a reason and not just blatantly poor/forgotten balancing reasons.

 

[LonkQ]

The buffs are just too hot to handle. But seriously why'd they buff Ike again? It seems kinda weird.

 

[Antonykun]

I can't complain. I got my buffs. FE too strong.

Again Swordfighter is only allowed to be a FE char when it means bad things T.T

 

[EODM07]

Again Swordfighter is only allowed to be a FE char when it means bad things T.T

So you're saying Swordfighter is a generic enemy for the heroes to fight?

 

[Antonykun]

So you're saying Swordfighter is a generic enemy for the heroes to fight?

on phoenix mode

 

[ぱみゅ]

Apparently Sakurai's gonna take a well-deserved break and vacation, so there will be no more patches for Sm4sh

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/09/famitsu499/

I love how fatalistic does that video sound.
He didn't say he won't have any more updates, ever. He just said he would take a long vacation.

Sure, he thanked his crew, but he did so at the Final Video Presentation too.

 

[EODM07]

Btw girls. Which Gundam series should I start watching?

I got 00 on hold for a LONG time. (Only saw Episode 1), and I'm thinking of watching either Build Fighters Try or Blood Orphans.

Which one would you recommend? Since I had the disappointment of starting Gundam with Seed Destiny.

 

[Y2Kay]

RyeMan: BTW Nerf Greninja bcuz why not? That's all.

MFW people make Better Nerf Greninja jokes:

 

[McKnightlíght]

MFW people make Better Nerf Greninja jokes:

View attachment 96033

Greninja is terrible but he has the 2nd best way to gimp people.

 

[Kofu]

Warning: Ffamran rant incoming

This video is pretty cancerous

As expected from those mains

Now those dreams are crushed bless Mustard Hero Soccer Guy

Samus mains are a strange bunch. They put in some of the best work for developing their character's metagame and get sincerely affronted when people call Samus bad and try to improve public knowledge/opinion of her. Yet they go ahead and make these videos saying "look how much our main sucks, pity us."

I've seen similar videos before but not this one. It makes a few good points, mainly about Samus's hurtbox being extended after attacks (didn't know about that and it looks really dumb). Also that homing missiles don't home (go play Gunner and get some real homing missiles, this complaint feels valid). Some of the complaints about inconsistent multi-hit moves are understandable as well.

But the rest of it is the boards kvetching that their moves/hitboxes don't work exactly how they want them to. To be fair, I've done similar things (and even on Samus's behalf). The blatant hitbox difference between her dash attack and Falcon's, and the bizarre change of function their UTilts have (his meteors regardless of the target's position, hers only does it on grounded opponents which means it can be teched 99% of the time) are kind of bad, though the UTilt function is at least a holdover from Brawl and could be fixed by giving it the same change Falco's DAir got. You want to know who else has wonky hitboxes? Wii Fit Trainer, and those have turned into something of an advantage for the character. Use a character enough and weird hitboxes become less and less debilitating. And complaining that their DTilt could have done 14%... when it still does 12%, hits on frame 6, and has wonderful reach, is a genuine case of sour grapes. Her grab is bad but at least it has reach and grants her a ZAir (looking at you, Villager). Love how they show all the stuff that beats Charge Shot when they show later on in the video how you're supposed to use it and neglect to state that it'll beat virtually any non-item projectile in the game.

Her gameplan is functional but only barely at times. She has rather great startup on most of her attacks, so when she lands a hit, she can usually get something out of it. They aren't wrong when they say she needs precision and skill, despite what Aerodrome thinks (but they are wrong when they say she's a projectile-based character). Her biggest issue isn't any of what they put in that video, not directly. It's that you can play other characters and get the same or greater reward for less work and risk. "Fixing" the problems shown in the video would sure help but I doubt it would make her a better character choice against the current kings (queens?) of comboing and zoning.

 

[Baskerville]

The buffs are just too hot to handle. But seriously why'd they buff Ike again? It seems kinda weird.

Probably cuz of Japan still thinking hes bad.
Can we ban Ike's F-Air please? That move disgusts me.

 

[Antonykun]

Warning: Ffamran rant incoming


Samus mains are a strange bunch. They put in some of the best work for developing their character's metagame and get sincerely affronted when people call Samus bad and try to improve public knowledge/opinion of her. Yet they go ahead and make these videos saying "look how much our main sucks, pity us."

I've seen similar videos before but not this one. It makes a few good points, mainly about Samus's hurtbox being extended after attacks (didn't know about that and it looks really dumb). Also that homing missiles don't home (go play Gunner and get some real homing missiles, this complaint feels valid). Some of the complaints about inconsistent multi-hit moves are understandable as well.

But the rest of it is the boards kvetching that their moves/hitboxes don't work exactly how they want them to. To be fair, I've done similar things (and even on Samus's behalf). The blatant hitbox difference between her dash attack and Falcon's, and the bizarre change of function their UTilts have (his meteors regardless of the target's position, hers only does it on grounded opponents which means it can be teched 99% of the time) are kind of bad, though the UTilt function is at least a holdover from Brawl and could be fixed by giving it the same change Falco's DAir got. You want to know who else has wonky hitboxes? Wii Fit Trainer, and those have turned into something of an advantage for the character. Use a character enough and weird hitboxes become less and less debilitating. And complaining that their DTilt could have done 14%... when it still does 12%, hits on frame 6, and has wonderful reach, is a genuine case of sour grapes. Her grab is bad but at least it has reach and grants her a ZAir (looking at you, Villager). Love how they show all the stuff that beats Charge Shot when they show later on in the video how you're supposed to use it and neglect to state that it'll beat virtually any non-item projectile in the game.

Her gameplan is functional but only barely at times. She has rather great startup on most of her attacks, so when she lands a hit, she can usually get something out of it. They aren't wrong when they say she needs precision and skill, despite what Aerodrome thinks (but they are wrong when they say she's a projectile-based character). Her biggest issue isn't any of what they put in that video, not directly. It's that you can play other characters and get the same or greater reward for less work and risk. "Fixing" the problems shown in the video would sure help but I doubt it would make her a better character choice against the current kings (queens?) of comboing and zoning.

Best part the one tool from the original animal crossing not to make it to villager's repertoire is the one tool that would make for an awesome Z-air

 

[Kofu]

Best part the one tool from the original animal crossing not to make it to villager's repertoire is the one tool that would make for an awesome Z-air

I know, so mad about that. I spend more time fishing than doing anything else pretty sure. The fishing rod needs representation, Sakurai!

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Since we are a lovely negative bunch, I'll share my negative opinions nobody cares about on fighting games:

Street Fighter V: I was going to maybe get into SF a little bit with this game just to see if the gameplay was any better than the older ones (which I have played and strongly disliked) but I see I'll have to wait 4 years for the final version to come out with a not-F-tier roster.

KOF XIV: I love The King of Fighters to death, it was my first traditional fighter (and one of my first fighters in general), but man that game hurts to look at. I'm glad I've noticed improvements over time though. If it wasn't for a 50 character minimum launch roster and its title I probably would've skipped on this one.

Tekken 7: How much longer for consoles, Harada? Where's my Kunimitsu? Also, stages are very, very bland and uninteresting, as are most the new characters. Everything else seems pretty nice.

Guilty Gear/BlazBlue: Stop making me pay for the same game at full price every year with barely any changes, whether it's a sequel or not. Thank you ArcSys.

SoulCalibur: Where's VI?

Sm4sh: Balance where?

 

[Rizen]

In the magical world of make-believe where we had 1 more patch coming I would like:
to have landing lag nerfs, hitbox and invulnerability reductions on down B, more lag on needles.
less consistent combos with more ways to escape aka 50/50s. Witch time and bat within need nerfs.
to have a Nine Inch Nails teashirt alternate costume.
to have some hitbox reductions and luma to have less KBG.
to have more endlag on limit charging and less power for limits like finishing touch.
old voice back, less invulnerability on sideB.
slight range nerfs.
scale down the power of upB.
bug fix.
maybe small nerfs but IDK what.

slightly longer sideB recovery.
frame 5 jab, endlag reductions.
Minor buffs but IDK how.
big buffs.

 

[Lorde]

less consistent combos with more ways to escape aka 50/50s.

you can di out of like all of her combos lol

 

[Rizen]

you can di out of like all of her combos lol

You can? Okay cool. I heard some people talking about how she'd be more consistent in the future as people got better.

 

[Antonykun]

In the magical world of make-believe where we had 1 more patch coming I would like:
less consistent combos with more ways to escape aka 50/50s.

I'd rather target witch time aka "wtf is disadvantage lol" than what she is designed around

 

[Lorde]

You can? Okay cool. I heard some people talking about how she'd be more consistent in the future as people got better.

I mean, that's a given. She was only released 6 days ago, so it's not like anyone has mastered her combos yet. I'm sure there'll be a super dedicated Bayo main that will be able to consistently pull off her huge and flashy combos, but that won't be for a very long time.

A bunch of top players (like Nairo) are planning to use her at their next tournament, so I'm excited to see how they do.


And nerfing her combos would completely ruin the character. Her frame data is meh overall, she can't kill reliably until like 130%, she's light, and her mobility is average. Her combos are what she was designed around, and nerfing those would severely hurt her.

 

[Rizen]

I'd rather target witch time aka "wtf is disadvantage lol" than what she is designed around

That's a good point. Now that I think about it witch time and bat within need nerfs.

 

[Antonykun]

That's a good point. Now that I think about it witch time and bat within need nerfs.

*btw i can't beleive i'm humoring this*
larger endlag you basically only have enough time for a quick punish compared to the fact that she can kill you sub 100% for landing witch time. Her disadvantage would still be top percentile just because witch twist + downwards afterburner is so good

yo someone post something so i can talk about balance

 

[JAZZ_]

In the magical world of make-believe where we had 1 more patch coming I would like:
to have landing lag nerfs, hitbox and invulnerability reductions on down B, more lag on needles.
less consistent combos with more ways to escape aka 50/50s. Witch time and bat within need nerfs.
to have a Nine Inch Nails teashirt alternate costume.
to have some hitbox reductions and luma to have less KBG.
to have more endlag on limit charging and less power for limits like finishing touch.
old voice back, less invulnerability on sideB.
slight range nerfs.
scale down the power of upB.
bug fix.
maybe small nerfs but IDK what.

slightly longer sideB recovery.
frame 5 jab, endlag reductions.
Minor buffs but IDK how.
big buffs.

You not sure how to buff ? easy, Fsmash hitbox match is fiery animation (honestly its just flame colored streamers coming out of that gun), ftilt sour spot buff , but most importantly a grab treatment that EVERY OTHER TETHER HAS GOTTEN (I mean Lucas got a grab buff? seriously? that guy had a kill throw already) .
Id say is pretty decent as of the 1.1.3 patch. Maybe a tweak to his reflect to where its start up and ending effect matches the animation. (little to slow coming out, active for too long) and maybe a more consistent snap to the ledge

maybe less endlag on his tilts and jab. Make uptilt cancelable.

I dont agree with nerfing anyone though, I strongly believe in just fixing the low tiers so the gap in viability is smaller.

 

[Kofu]

You not sure how to buff ? ...
but most importantly a grab treatment that EVERY OTHER TETHER HAS GOTTEN (I mean Lucas got a grab buff? seriously? that guy had a kill throw already) .

Bit of a nitpick here. First, Lucas has three kill throws

Second, let's look at all the tether grabs in the game:


WHOOPS HOW'D BOWSER GET IN THERE

Anyway, Olimar's a debatable tether. Greninja, Yoshi, and Junior aren't quite tethers (though Greninja's has some pretty sweet range). Of those listed, I know these have gotten grab buffs:


The others I'm fairly certain haven't. If they have it's only been by one or two frames. Samus isn't the only one with a bad grab. Her bigger issue is her mediocre reward. DThrow combos at low percents but gets harder to follow up with DI. Only Pac-Man of the characters listed lacks a combo throw. But DThrow and FThrow can create openings for traps (and combo if the opponent sucks) and UThrow and BThrow kill at high percents. After a certain point Samus's throws basically just give her more time to charge Charge Shot.

 

[Y2Kay]

The only buff that's reasonable for Mewtwo would be to buff his grab range. I mean seriously, he's frickin' psychic! His grab range shouldn't suck so much!

I'd like this If it happened but I won't cry if I don't get it.

 

[Lorde]

FYI, Samus' standing and pivot grabs got 4 frames of endlag shaved off in 1.0.8

 

[Antonykun]

just for the record the best way to buff a character is to increase their design intended strengths rather than to lower their weaknesses.
likewise the best way to nerf a character is to target things that are not related to their playstyle unless said parts of their playstyle are too abusable like Luigi's down throw

 

[McKnightlíght]

Quick poll, should I use Chrom Ike or college Ike?

 

[Lorde]

College Ike is better because the pink cape is pretty.

Chrom Ike is bad.

 

[Lavani]

You can? Okay cool. I heard some people talking about how she'd be more consistent in the future as people got better.

I'd argue less consistent as other people get better.

 

[McKnightlíght]

College Ike is better because the pink cape is pretty.

Chrom Ike is bad.

Ok so naturally Spritzee's opinions are g4rb4ge so that's 1 vote for Chrom Ike.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja is terrible

said the zelda main to the greninja main

lol

 

[Antonykun]

i play as green ike

 

[Lorde]

Green and blue Ike for best palettes

 

[McKnightlíght]

said the zelda main to the greninja main

lol

That means it's coming from a position of authority on the subject.

Speaking of subjects, bow down to Zelda's awfulness peasant pheasant peasant.

 

[JAZZ_]

FYI, Samus' standing and pivot grabs got 4 frames of endlag shaved off in 1.0.8

you mean they were worse and i never noticed? that endlag buff is hardly that given that the active frames for the grab still make it safe to just walk up and smash you in the face if you whiff, and you will nearly always whiff given most can react with a back roll to avoid it.

Bit of a nitpick here. First, Lucas has three kill throws

Second, let's look at all the tether grabs in the game:


WHOOPS HOW'D BOWSER GET IN THERE

Anyway, Olimar's a debatable tether. Greninja, Yoshi, and Junior aren't quite tethers (though Greninja's has some pretty sweet range). Of those listed, I know these have gotten grab buffs:


The others I'm fairly certain haven't. If they have it's only been by one or two frames. Samus isn't the only one with a bad grab. Her bigger issue is her mediocre reward. DThrow combos at low percents but gets harder to follow up with DI. Only Pac-Man of the characters listed lacks a combo throw. But DThrow and FThrow can create openings for traps (and combo if the opponent sucks) and UThrow and BThrow kill at high percents. After a certain point Samus's throws basically just give her more time to charge Charge Shot.

when I said "treatment" I was painting with an even broader brush than just patches. Just from the design standpoint the tethers in this game pay off bad frame data with either a confirmed kill combo or a decent kill throw at reasonable percents. Nearly every character with a tether has this, Except Samus. My comments include reward as well. I mean why cant I back throw kill someone at the ledge until they pass some ridiculous % like 210? And a good Samus doesn't need time to get a charge in (jumping out of charge keeps you mobile charging), nor does that help in a game with so many ways to nullify it. (generous reflects, counters, pacmans fruit, a pikmin, a bomb, gyro, etc.)

 

[Lorde]

you mean they were worse and i never noticed? that endlag buff is hardly that given that the active frames for the grab still make it safe to just walk uo and smash you in the face if you whiff, and you will nearly always whiff given most can react with a back roll to avoid it.

I'm aware her grab is still trash.

I just wanted to point out that her grab has been buffed before (albeit insignificantly).

 

[Furret]

Minor buffs but IDK how.

I play a few of these enough
landing lag, could get other things but that would be the most beneficial
endlag on projectiles, smashes would be nice too
literally any air mobility would be great

frame 5 jab dtilt

frame 5 jab would be terrible to play against as any character that had trouble with link before

maybe small nerfs but IDK what.

Usmash is a dumb move

maybe small nerfs but IDK what.

there's been enough of those

 

[McKnightlíght]

Green and blue Ike for best palettes

All the palettes are great, you can't go wrong as Ike, they did a stellar job on his palettes. But the green and blue are bland compared to the others. College Ike is the most aesthetically pleasing though.