Social Zelda Social: An Upgraded Recycling Bin Princess

Are you happy with the Link Between Worlds redesign?

  • Yes, she's gorgeous and expressive.

    Votes: 152 60.6%
  • No, Breath of the Wild had such potential.

    Votes: 50 19.9%
  • No, Twilight Princess death stare Zelda was the best design.

    Votes: 33 13.1%
  • I'm happy with any design, just as long as she's viable,

    Votes: 16 6.4%

  • Total voters
    251

Ffamran

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I've been meaning to talk about this after some posts brought up Zelda needing a lot more buffs to be noticeably better. That is not to say the current and known changes to Zelda hasn't improved her, but that there are other things that could be done that would make her better. One thing is her lightning kicks and specifically their sour-spots.

In Smash 4, Zelda's lightning kicks' sweet-spots did 20% and had 24 base and 95 growth. The sour-spots did 4% and had 5 base and 80/80/96 growth. All the hitboxes have the same 361 angle. The most comparable move to Zelda's lightning kicks is Captain Falcon's knee which is significantly slower at frame 14 to her frame 9 Fair and frame 6 Bair in Smash 4, but it's on Capt., the second fastest runner in the game. It's also his situational Fair versus Zelda's situational Fair and Bair. Captain Falcon doesn't need to use Fair if he wants a horizontal aerial to kill someone. He has Bair for that as a more versatile one. Effectively, his Nair, Fair, and Bair all serve different purposes and grant him flexibility. In contrast, Zelda's Nair is her most versatile horizontal aerial while Fair and Bair are locked as situational moves where you need to sweet-spot them to get anything significant because the sour-spots are very weak. Also, Capt.'s knee late hit lasts way longer than Zelda's. It's frames 15-30, 16 active frames, to Zelda's late Fair being 10-13 and late Bair being 7-9, 4 active frames. And it has much higher base knockback, 35 to Zelda's 5, all for doing 1 less damage and only having 80 growth for all its hitboxes.

Moving on from that long-winded comparison of her lightning kicks to Capt.'s knee, the developers have chosen for Ultimate to make everyone feel stronger and faster. Zelda, of course, benefits from these changes, but it also serves to highlight how inflexible and harsh her lightning kicks are. As of the E3 demo build, Zelda's Bair was reported to deal 21%? in 1v1. That's a +1% damage increase with unknown knockback changes. In pure damage, we already had moves rival that in Smash 4 and didn't need to be sweet-spotted in a way like Zelda's lightning kicks. Ganondorf is an extreme example for Smash 4, but he's also an example of how easy it is for someone else to just press a button and hit with it to get a good reward. As of the E3 demo and according to this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-king-of-evil-returns-frame-data-damage-changes.456273/, Ganondorf's frame 14 Fair does 22.7%/18.9%/15.1% and has 15 landing lag. It also can auto-cancel again? His frame 10 Bair does 21.4%/17.9%/15.2% and has 12 landing lag. They're much slower than Zelda's lightning kicks which are now both frame 6 on startup, especially Fair, but they have more consistent hitboxes, they're safer to use, and ultimately, they're easier to use. Learning to do pivot Bairs isn't that hard and with Capt. and Ganondorf's fantastic Bairs, it would be a waste to not abuse them. Ike's Bair has always been great and as of the E3 demo, it's been noted to do 16.8% and have 11 landing lag. That's a frame 7 natural disjoint you can just throw out, especially if you can still auto-cancel it. You can't do that with Zelda's lightning kicks. They don't auto-cancel from a hop, they still have high landing lag, and you have to sweet-spot them if you want that kind of damage.

Okay, so there is a point to them having a sweet-spot and sour-spot. Other than giving Zelda something unique with one thing being that she is the only character to have two aerials be the same move essentially, it's a way to balance them as they are fast moves. Doubly so in Ultimate when they're both frame 6. That's the intent, however, and intent sometimes doesn't work out well in practice. At this point, Zelda's sour-spots are incredibly harsh even more so than stuff like Luigi's sour-spot Super Jump Punch or Falco's sour-spot Down Smash and sour-spot Uair pre-1.0.8 Smash 4. Luigi's is an extreme case of high reward, high risk and it's one of his special moves and vertical recovery moves not two of his normals whereas Falco's still do normal damage and decent enough hitstun for them to be safe or even act as a hit confirm with sour-spot Uair. Anyway, it looks like Zelda's sour-spot Fair does 4.2% in 1v1 as shown in Nairo's match with ANTi's Cloud: https://youtu.be/Pg8i5jX9OU4?t=11. Damage-wise, it's basically unchanged and the knockback doesn't seem like it was improved as at that low percent, Cloud wasn't sent anywhere and was able to recover faster than Zelda when she landed as he footstooled her by the time she got up. Quite frankly, that is garbage.

Zelda's lightning kicks' sour-spots shouldn't be that bad when other characters either don't have to deal with them and can get similar damage and knockback with moves that are just as fast or slightly slower than hers and/or their sour-spots are not as bad. For example, you don't see Marth and Roy's sour-spots pathetically slapping people around and their shtick is having sweet-spots and sour-spots on all their moves. They still can launch people decently with their sour-spots.

Perhaps this was a convoluted way to say this, but I think Zelda's lightning kicks' sour-spots should be stronger. They should be strong enough to cause some, decent knockback that maybe Zelda might even be able to use sour-spot Fair and Bair for follow-ups or combos. Probably not going to happen unless they drastically lower their total frames and landing lag. Smash 4's lightning kicks share the 53 total frames, but the difference in startup and last active frames gives Fair 40 recovery frames and Bair 44 recovery frames. Dropping down to <= 37 recovery frames with stronger sour-spots could give her the ability to actually use them. The one thing she'd lose would be the ability to reset with them since they'd have higher knockback, but that's probably not worth it over having practical and useful sour-spots on her lightning kicks. Otherwise, her sweet-spots should be stronger in damage or knockback if we're going to have moves like Ganondorf's Bair easily do 21.4% to 15.2% or Ike's Bair doing 16.8% while Zelda screwing up only gets her 4.2% and even when she succeeds, only match Ganondorf's sweet-spot Bair where its sour-spots are infinitely better than hers.
 
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BJN39

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Your page on her and BJN39's thread on the Smash 4 Zelda boards say they do 20%.
Fresh LK does 21% in SSB4. Base dmg in the data is 20% tho. Seems the same in SSBU at this point (except lol 25%) but we’ve only seen the 21%.

But basically I agree and have iterated all of that in the past down to the very Falcon knee comparison. The endlag should be lower and the base KB on the sourspot should be higher, like, exactly that. Zelda’s sourspot LKs (like many of her design choices) are unprecedented and uniquely weaker variants on other similar attacks and hitboxes. There’s legit no reason at this point for such a uniquely weak attack unless they’re gonna actually start pitching Zelda as a joke character.
 
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Ffamran

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Fresh LK does 21% in SSB4. Base dmg in the data is 20% tho. Seems the same in SSBU at this point (except lol 25%) but we’ve only seen the 21%.

But basically I agree and have iterated all of that in the past down to the very Falcon knee comparison. The endlag should be lower and the base KB on the sourspot should be higher, like, exactly that. Zelda’s sourspot LKs (like many of her design choices) are unprecedented and uniquely weaker variants on other similar attacks and hitboxes. There’s legit no reason at this point for such a uniquely weak attack unless they’re gonna actually start pitching Zelda as a joke character.
Oh yeah, forgot about the freshness bonus thing.

I had a feeling this was brought up before and I think I might have talked to you about it as well. The thing is the emphasis on what you said about "there’s legit no reason at this point for such a uniquely weak attack". The intent of her lightning kicks look like very high precision, very high reward moves. That's unique, but the problem is that it seems like the reward keeps lowering in each game and the punishment, the sour-spots, become more and more apparent and harsher. In Ultimate, it's pretty much pointless now with the direction they're going with by increasing everyone's damage and speed. At this point, lightning kicks are very high precision, mediocre reward moves. They might even be low rewards because of what they require you to do that others don't need to do.

What's different is that they have her as a playable character for the first public demo and they're asking for feedback to which this should be brought up if it's not already happening. At the same time, it still begs the question of why her lightning kicks' sour-spots are still that weak. I can't think of a reason other than mindlessly copying and pasting numbers over with, if there are, some minor changes that sometimes exacerbates the problem. That kills characters and I've already ranted enough about one of them. There's also the matter of why the damage to her lightning kick' sweet-spots haven't changed, but you could chalk part of that up to them being frame 6 except for the whole precise sweet-spot and terrible sour-spot thing.
 

Lil Puddin

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unless they’re gonna actually start pitching Zelda as a joke character.
I guess you must've missed the memo that she was meant to be a joke character from the start. :secretkpop:

Why else would she be consistently low tier? tbh they put too much power in her walk and animations that there was no power left over to evenly distribute throughout her moveset. rip
 

KlicKlac

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All I want for her kicks is to be able to short hop autocancel them again. That alone would make her feel so much more fluid to play
I would love that, but I also don't want her lightning kicks to become over-centralizing. A good trade would be to fix the dumb hitboxes and give the kicks more hitstun on block, which it looks like sakurai has made way better in ultimate. I think zelda players are going to land a lot more clutch lightning kick kills.
 
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It's been like three years since I've been here/last posted, but I'm super excited to be back after seeing the new smash direct! I haven't been able to read all of the posts in this thread, and I'll be hopping over to the Peach and Zero Suit forums shortly, but I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm super, super excited to play as the new Zelda! She looks so much fun, and though I personally prefer her Twilight Princess design, I think she looks super adorable and I'm glad that she has a TP palette swap.

I'm loving the changes to her moveset, even if they are very small. And even if these changes don't help her on the tier lists, I'll happily continue to play as her anyways.
 

Freelance Spy

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It's been like three years since I've been here/last posted, but I'm super excited to be back after seeing the new smash direct! I haven't been able to read all of the posts in this thread, and I'll be hopping over to the Peach and Zero Suit forums shortly, but I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm super, super excited to play as the new Zelda! She looks so much fun, and though I personally prefer her Twilight Princess design, I think she looks super adorable and I'm glad that she has a TP palette swap.

I'm loving the changes to her moveset, even if they are very small. And even if these changes don't help her on the tier lists, I'll happily continue to play as her anyways.
looks like she's going to have a rough start again in this game. Lot of old issues have gone unresolved, such as the multihit problem, sourspots doing nothing, and typical bad frame data are making their return.

And of course the new buffs received also come with slight nerfs to keep her balanced, like her upair losing it's range in favor of slightly better frame data. Or her phantom possibly having less hitpoints (unconfirmed).

Glad to see you will still enjoy her even though it looks like she's going to stay at the bottom. She's still Zelda after all.
 

Ophilia

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looks like she's going to have a rough start again in this game. Lot of old issues have gone unresolved, such as the multihit problem, sourspots doing nothing, and typical bad frame data are making their return.

And of course the new buffs received also come with slight nerfs to keep her balanced, like her upair losing it's range in favor of slightly better frame data. Or her phantom possibly having less hitpoints (unconfirmed).

Glad to see you will still enjoy her even though it looks like she's going to stay at the bottom. She's still Zelda after all.
Mutlihit SDI can actually be a really good thing, at low percents. If they SDI the first hit of Fsmash, they still have to respect the rest of it because you can NOT SDI BEHIND OR THROUGH ANYONE ANYMORE 8D and she's still got a hurtbox out. Most people will try to run up grab and you punish with downsmash.

This leads to an easy downsmash or grab punish. This happens very frequently in Melee, I'll get some examples.

Trust me I'd rather have a solid hitbox but it's not as breaking to her kit. If you have a Phantom set and they SDI a forward or upsmash you connected, the phantom forces them in shield.

Zelda can also double shield block now, because a delayed phantom will shield block anything under 13 percent. So she can double block certain two hut downsmashes, or links double forward smash. Phantom takes the first hit, she takes the second.

We get to choose when phantom is a sitting duck, unlike smash 4. And it respawns instantly after it disappears. There's no timer anymore.

This move alone is gonna change her kit entirely.
 

Darktundra

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Suggestions for the future:
Some form of Flowchart app for match-ups that cover both offensive and defensive options.

I will main Zelda because she is too complex for me to leave.

The nerfed defensive options are a double-edge sword. One mechanic that interest me is the changing frame rates (invincibility and endlag) with dodges. I can see top-level players counting dodges and adjusting their punishes accordingly. The initial meta is going to be beneficial for characters who can juggle and have good edge-guarding potential. If repeated ledge options are punished by the new dodge mechanic, this will further cement early-meta top tiers until counter-play is discovered.
The new "balloon knockback" formula will make the game more focused on positioning your opponent in order to win stage control and accomplish a successful edge-guards. While I do agree that Zelda currently looks like she has little defense, I will have to say that Zelda mains are very nasty when it comes to micro-spacing and Zelda's new mobility may facilitate "kiting" (yes is used lol terms) your enemy. As for Lightning Kicks; while I would like for the F-air and B-air to have more kill potential (i.e. killing from mid stage at 90%), the kick could be a stock as soon as your opponent is off stage. I have to admit that being off stage is going to be terrible overall across the cast and that I can see ledge campers may be easier to deal with.
Overall, I am dying to get this game in my hands so that I can lab everything, Zelda is going to be receiving some salt from her victims.
 
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Zelda can also double shield block now, because a delayed phantom will shield block anything under 13 percent. So she can double block certain two hut downsmashes, or links double forward smash. Phantom takes the first hit, she takes the second.
Ye look that isn't how phantom or shields work

If it hits phantom its going to hit you since you're probably in front of it
 
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New poll is up! I'm an awful gurl and took way too long to edit it for Luminario.

Feel free to recast any votes you've made to correctly reflect how you feel about the newly posed question!
New Zelda is really pretty, I like it a lot. I wish the TP Design was still around though. Twilight Princess just has a special place in my heart.
 

BJN39

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Something I appreciate about the new Zelda is how the phantom works better with her design, but the triforce attacks don’t feel alienated; as a choice it feels like a nice balance in between the elegant perfection of TP and newer more toon-esque SS or BotW designs.
 
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Freelance Spy

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New poll is up! I'm an awful gurl and took way too long to edit it for Luminario.

Feel free to recast any votes you've made to correctly reflect how you feel about the newly posed question!
I logged on and my vote was already cast for BoTW? Seems to be a bug, might skew results I dunno.

Praise the new Zelda!

We get to choose when phantom is a sitting duck, unlike smash 4. And it respawns instantly after it disappears. There's no timer anymore.

This move alone is gonna change her kit entirely.
That's certainly an interesting aspect of multihit moves, I still hold that they are bad because people tend to not fall into you as much as away from you.

As far as phantom slash goes, I fear it won't be nearly the move that you are praising it for. Granted, it's a huge improvement over the tr4sh phantom, but it still isn't storable so there is always going to be an element of predictability to it. Just a reminder, you are stuck in the charge animation and there's no confirmation of whether you can cancel that at all.

I am imagining a common situation where Zelda goes for a down b to create some space or pressure and the opponent knows that we'll have to either wait for it to *fully charge* to delay it. Or that we can toss it out as a get off me. Now the opponent can take the time (the *full charge time*) to decide if they want to wait out the phantom out of range, or if they want to attack Zelda before she's done the move. If they are patient, the Phantom is muich less threatening. If Zelda wants to follow up a delayed phantom, she is now approaching (as Zelda) an opponent who knows when she'll be there thanks to the phantom's timing. Plus you could use Zelda's own tool as bait against her.

I really hope phantom doesn't have less health the less it is charged, or the "get off me" utility will be about as effective as our kick sourspot. Considering everyone got more speed in this game, if people are good enough at rushdown, Zelda's charge animation might be the single most interrupted charged projectile in the game. Having people run across the whole stage just to stop her from getting the delayed hit out, and potentially getting in her face easily. If this is the case then I truly hope she can store it in a later patch, because she'll need it to compete with everybody else's mixups.
 
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DNeon

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New poll is up! I'm an awful gurl and took way too long to edit it for Luminario.

Feel free to recast any votes you've made to correctly reflect how you feel about the newly posed question!
I ended up changing my vote, TP Zelda is bae and I need more demure but sharp in my life, but with the designs laid out way earlier in the thread by PixelPasta PixelPasta I was so let down given the versatility of the BOTW design. I'm just not about that Disney Princess look she's has now, even if it still looks good.
This version of Zelda also has three great potential costumes - her champion's outift, her fancy dress, and her white gown. I actually did up a set of ten palette swaps using these three outfits:

Click the image for better resolution.

The top row is her champion outfit: the default colours, a palette inspired by Skyward Sword Zelda, a palette inspired by Tetra, and a palette inspired by the Zelda Animated Series (ok, the show was bad but I admittedly kind of liked her design, color-wise at least)
Then there are three swaps inspired by the royal dress: the default, an Ocarina of Time-inspired palette, and a Twilight Princess-inspired palette.
Finally, there are three swaps inspired by her ceremonial gown: the default, one inspired by young Zelda from Ocarina of Time, and one inspired by a Link to the Past.
 

L2 Sentinel

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I know it's just for fun, but I'm personally not a fan of polls that are unnecessarily wordy for the sake of flare. TP Zelda is my favorite design by a large margin, but I'm not unhappy with the redesign. It's fine. Also, describing one Zelda as "gorgeous and expressive" and another has having a "death stare" makes the poll seem biased.
 
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Twilight Princess is definitely my favorite Zelda design by far. It was the first Zelda game I’ve ever played, and that design has stuck with me since. Plus, having a brunette is so refreshing in a sea of blondes. The purple dress looks so beautiful against her brown hair.

I’m not unhappy with the new look though, I think she looks gorgeous either way. I just prefer Twilight Princess.
 

L2 Sentinel

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I guess I read the death stare as a criticism of TP Zelda because most people who don't like that design usually cite the reason they don't like it is because of some version of "she doesn't smile enough." Meanwhile, the people who do like the design rarely mention her "death stare" and instead focus on how graceful, elegant, and regal she looks.

I'm not trying to make a huge thing out of it because it really isn't that big of a deal. It's just a minor criticism. I still voted for TP Zelda because I think that's what the spirit of that option was intended for, even if I still like ALttP Zelda's design.
 

PixelPasta

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I was really looking forward to BotW Zelda, its my personal favourite version of her and I think a Zelda who doesn't always wear a dress could help freshen up her moveset/mobility in Smash.
But I wouldn't say I'm all that disappointed, I do like the classic look of LttP/LBW and its certainly better than her TP design (a look I've never been fond of.) Honestly I'm just happy she's blonde again...

What I don't understand is why the Zelda cast couldn't get all of their main designs as alts. I'd love to be able to choose between OoT, TP, SS, BotW, etc. Its something they've done with Cloud and Bayonetta, and now Ike - also Hyrule Warriors pulled it off quite nicely, so its definitely feasible. Can't say I'm surprised though, the Zelda series always gets the short end of the stick in Smash despite how big of a franchise it is.
 
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Skyblade12

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I'm actually thinking the reason she's not BotW Zelda is because her moveset looks awkward in trousers, especially the kicks.
 
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S.F.L.R_9

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In my humble opinion...

Link Between Worlds Zelda Pros:
- Much cuter
- More expressive and fun
- Blonde hair if ur into that
For me: a 10/10 because she just seems so much more fun and I like having a new design after the same one for 2 consecutive games

TP Zelda Pros:
- Death Stare
- Most competitively viable, sassy, rude, fantastic, fabulous walking animation in the game
- Down taunt
10/10 for different reasons; losing to her feels awful when she can taunt just by walking or even standing there staring out into the blastzones...

Ok also Ik this is on the last page but that video that Alacion posted about 1.0 Melee Zelda's up smash...that was the SADDEST thing I've EVER seen like I feel BLESSED to have Smash 4 Zelda like who knew anyone would ever say that

I like the new redesign for the simple fact that the developers made her have the gall to be more *sassy* when she's gonna go back to bargain bin Tr4.5h tier again

also long time no Tr4sh Zelda crew! Hope y'all been doing well
Hay gurl!
Welcome back :secretkpop:
 
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Lil Puddin

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Any of yew gorls play Overwatch on PC? I could use some gorls to play with since non-gorls are boring af to talk to.

I know it's just for fun, but I'm personally not a fan of polls that are unnecessarily wordy for the sake of flare. TP Zelda is my favorite design by a large margin, but I'm not unhappy with the redesign. It's fine. Also, describing one Zelda as "gorgeous and expressive" and another has having a "death stare" makes the poll seem biased.
gorl pls, if it ain't extra or dramatic or sparkly, it ain't Zelda :4zelda::secretkpop::ultzelda:

I like the new redesign for the simple fact that the developers made her have the gall to be more *sassy* when she's gonna go back to bargain bin Tr4.5h tier again

also long time no Tr4sh Zelda crew! Hope y'all been doing well
whenever an old gorl comes back:


edit: btw welcome back we just need 40 more gorls to make a full gorl squad to invade other socials and make them better
 
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Ophilia

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Any of yew gorls play Overwatch on PC? I could use some gorls to play with since non-gorls are boring af to talk to.


gorl pls, if it ain't extra or dramatic or sparkly, it ain't Zelda:4zelda::secretkpop::ultzelda:


whenever an old gorl comes back:


edit: btw welcome back we just need 40 more gorls to make a full gorl squad to invade other socials and make them better
I play Paladins like a srub but if I play a healer in overwatch I'll play and just camp heal you xD
 

Lil Puddin

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I play Paladins like a srub but if I play a healer in overwatch I'll play and just camp heal you xD
Just play Brigitte and hit every heaux with ha Shade Flail or Gorl-Pls-Bash. It's bound to upset everyone while healing her allies' sass meters (and her own).
 

L2 Sentinel

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Don't think ANY Nintendo character had blonde hair in the NES days, at the very least not in gameplay. Guess it was hard to make that color look good.
That's probably true. The pixel count on the sprites were so low that they didn't have outlines, so yellow was probably too light of a color to work for old sprites. Pacman made it work because his game had a dark background the entire time.
 

EODM07

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Might as well move in here. :secretkpop:

*Ahem*

How's it going Anime Expo 2018 fans? :nifty::ultzelda::nifty:

So from what I've seen on Twitter, a bunch of stuff got shown off at Anime Expo.

Kase-san, Attack on Titan S3, SAO, a new TRIGGER anime (The main protag seriously looks like Kamina), and so on.

And also had some more info on Kill la Kill's video game as well. One person asked if Inferno Cop would be playable in it, one member of the team responded "No. He doesn't exist in 3D space." :secretkpop:

But Mori did say that Ryuko and Satsuki MIGHT appear in BBTAG. That'd be cool, since we'd get some guest representation; but I'm still hoping for Kokonoe to make it in, already theorized a moveset for her if she ever makes it in. Though this will probably be an updated version from the one I posted before.

Note: All of these moves will have the original motion of them from BBCF.
Kokonoe's Normals & Specials:

BBTAG BBCF
4A 5A
5AAAA 5B>6B>3C>236A
5BBB 6A>5C>236B
5C j.2C
2A 2A
2B 2B
2C 2C
j.A j.A
j.B j.B
j.C 6C
j.CCC 6C>2C>j.2C
A+D 5A+B
236A/B/C 236A (B version will be 236A/[A]. C version will be like B, but have a Wallbounce.)
214A/B (Air OK) 236B
22A/B/C Direction+D (Depending on button press, Gravitron will appear in front of, above or below Kokonoe.)
22A/B/C 236D (Activates Gravitron once its out.)


Kokonoe's Supers, Astral & Assists:

BBTAG BBCF
236BC "Full Metal Heavy Weapon v2.05" (ABCD during Overdrive)
214BC (Air OK) "Pyro: Flaming Belobog v2.73" (214214A/B/C. Air OK)
222BC (Resonance) "Final Apocalypse" Ultimate Impact (720D)
4P "Banishing Rays v3.10" (22A/B)
5P "Aerial Powerdrive Solid Wheel v3.37" (236B)
6P "Broken Bunker Assault v2.21" (236A)/"Absolute Zero v4.32" (236C) [1] (1st Hit Only)

I'd think of one for Celica, but I never played her; I just know she's precious and adorably funny.

 
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