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-Mars-

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#41
I know that one of the more popular stages to counterpick as Zelda is Luigi's Mansion. I don't fully understand why...

Din's goes through pillars, UpAir hits the next highest floor, And upsmash can set them up for a Dsmash right away.

But is there anything that makes in especially useful to Zelda besides what I stated? I am hoping to learn more from this stage.
The pillars prolong Zelda's already extremely long smashes, she lives longer on the stage, and for the other reasons you have already stated.
 

Bandit

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#42
ok i have a question.

Are there any setups that can lead into a fair/bair?
Soft Spot Combo (I named it...) = Non-sweetspot Dair to Fair/Bair

This works so well, though not guaranteed, my friend has stopped chasing me in the air.

Also,

Sweet Spot Combo (yep... named that too) = Sweetspot Dair to Fair/Bair

Depending on how far they fall when you spike them, if they land on platform, this is very easy to hit and they do not expect it.

***For both combos, both players are in the air.

I have been using Dair so much it is now pure reflex to throw it out if someone comes near me. Its rewards are so good, and it is high priority. It hits MK out of his shuttle, it beats ROB's Uair (which has me and JCaesar confused since his Uair has more range and he can have the hit box out but I still can beat it), it is a good move... just don't use it against another Zelda since her Uair will eat you alive. Remember that in dittos.

@Luigi's Mansion Question

You can check Kataefi's match-up discussion for Sonic's and my discussion concerning this stage. I am against its use unless it severely hampers a character's approach against Zelda, and he is for it because of the reasons mentioned. I am concerned MK is an auto-counterpick to the Luigi's CP, Zeldas leaning too heavily on one stage and having it banned all the time, and Zeldas losing out on other stage opportunities.

Here is the link: Shortcut!
 
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#43
I know that one of the more popular stages to counterpick as Zelda is Luigi's Mansion. I don't fully understand why...

Din's goes through pillars, UpAir hits the next highest floor, And upsmash can set them up for a Dsmash right away.
I dunno, my other guess is easier time recovering.
The pillars prolong Zelda's already extremely long smashes, she lives longer on the stage, and for the other reasons you have already stated.
The stage also limits the approach of many characters and generally helps Zelda´s camping. These combined make her defence very hard to break through. (I still don´t personally like the stage too much though...)

I´ll post the results into their own threat tomorrow with the new data I´ll have by then
It´s done, here´s the link for the threat:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6141413#post6141413
 

DarkThundah

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#44
Ok I have a question: What is Zelda's best momentum cancel. I usually use her fair or bair, respectifully, but I wolder if there is a faster one. Like maybe her dair or uair.

I did search the forums and didn't find anything. Maybe we should put it in the:

"Zelda/Sheik Guide - A Guide to Everything. ~~NEW FEATURES~~"
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196906

Listed under "The first thing you push when you get sent flying accross the screen". Tha'd be cool.
 

GodAtHand

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#45
I usually just smash whatever direction is opposite the direction I am flying. But this is something I might check out later on, seeing if certain moves help her to live longer...
 

-Mars-

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#48

DarkThundah

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#49
The best way to DI/momentum cancel with Zelda is bair>fastfall>double jump.
Well that question has been answered.

There's a thread by Tristan Win that lists up smash kill percents on every character. I'm kinda lazy, but the window is ideally at and 15-20% above that depending on how decayed your ftilt is -- there are a few factors that determine how much ftilt needs to be decayed to get them positioned right in your tipper.

This was origionally posted on the Zelda moveset discussion thred, and was a reference to Sheiks up smash. I was wondering, as I have searched for a while now, if we have one of these for Zelda. It would be nice to know what percent a fresh upsmash kills for each character.


Not saying it needs to be done for everystage, maybe for just FD or Smashville. I would do it myself but my roomate took the wii for the winter:mad:. Not suggesting someone else has to do it, just wanted to know if it already exists and I just suck at finding stuff. ~ty
 

lil cj

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#50
Im not sure if this has been discussed already but...I think Zelda can do some sort of chain grab with down throw???
I tried this against Bowser and Captian Falcon in training mode(I know the decay would affect this in an actual match) and got them from 0% to 70-90%(and I think it could go higher) very easily.
The timing is pretty easy and if your oppenent doesnt tech they can get constantly grabbed by Zelda...Im not sure who all she can chain grab maybe just large/tall characters.
Does anyone know?

:094:
 

Bandit

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#53

Bandit

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#55
You can't FF -> Jump -> Fair, Uair, or Nair: there is too much aerial lag to regrab the ledge. Dair is the only one I know of because I never use Bair in that scenario.
 

-Mars-

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#56
You can't FF -> Jump -> Fair, Uair, or Nair: there is too much aerial lag to regrab the ledge. Dair is the only one I know of because I never use Bair in that scenario.
I don't think this has anything to do with how fast the aerial is. Nair is obviously faster than dair, even if you can't grab the ledge after performing it.
 

Villi

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#57
?_? But I can regrab the ledge after nair and fair. Why would I lie. :O

Oh... I think I missed the point. Bair is definitely the best momentum stopper as it has the shortest duration and fastest startup of all her aerials. Next is fair, dair, nair, then up air for duration. Fair and dair can both be completed in a short hop. Nair just barely unable to complete in a short hop ... you can see by how little by jumping off the level with a SH nair and then jumping ASAP noting the double jump ripple. Up air is just... no.
 

Bandit

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#58
I was simply questioning if you fast falled, jumped, aerialed and regrabbed the ledge. I have found only Dair works (possible Bair but I haven't been in a situation to try it). This, to me, would signal Dair as the fastest (other than Bair) aerial in the air. It may not come out faster than some, but it can be repeated again and again faster. I thought that was what you wanted: a fast repeating aerial.

If you are fast falling to jump and pulling off nair and fair, then I have to figure out what I am doing wrong.
 

Villi

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#59
I was simply questioning if you fast falled, jumped, aerialed and regrabbed the ledge. I have found only Dair works (possible Bair but I haven't been in a situation to try it). This, to me, would signal Dair as the fastest (other than Bair) aerial in the air. It may not come out faster than some, but it can be repeated again and again faster. I thought that was what you wanted: a fast repeating aerial.

If you are fast falling to jump and pulling off nair and fair, then I have to figure out what I am doing wrong.
Yah, fast fall, double jump aerial, regrab ledge. If it was just having problems with fair (which is oodles (well maybe not oodles) faster than dair in both start up and cool down, btw) I woulda suggested just using A instead of the c-stick. Try sliding your thumb from jump to A instead of lifting your finger and it might work better.
 

Revven

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#60
Okay, this may seem like a n00b question but...

How can I DI Zelda's Fsmash and Usmash? I've been playing Zeldas that always use those two moves for approaching and then usually Din's Fire me after using the Fsmash (which I AD). I've been TRYING to DI the Usmash to no avail and the Fsmash, well, I have gotten out of it a few times but, I don't know how exactly I did it.

Can you even Smash DI out of them like out of Pika's Dsmash? I'm really fed up with these two moves...
 

Kataefi

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#62
FSmash is easy. I just SDI up and away and it seems to work, but it doesn't work if she catches you right in the centre of the attack. You need to be quick.

USmash you should just give up. You main diddy right? He falls fast, so he won't be escaping it. To try, just SDI up. But if you don't escape, press down again, otherwise you will DI prematurely and get launched even further
 

Revven

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#63
Zelda's Fsmassh is very easy to DI out of, just keep tapping up on the control stick. Her Usmash on the other hand is way harder, I dont know how.
FSmash is easy. I just SDI up and away and it seems to work, but it doesn't work if she catches you right in the centre of the attack. You need to be quick.

USmash you should just give up. You main diddy right? He falls fast, so he won't be escaping it. To try, just SDI up. But if you don't escape, press down again, otherwise you will DI prematurely and get launched even further
Thanks. I was afraid of the Usmash being inescapable... -_- Such BS. Did Sakurai REALLY need to buff it that much? I mean, Jesus... I can't even fathom how a smash attack can be inescapable, it just blows my mind.

She's like, a beta Snake only, she has smashes that are dumb.
 

Revven

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#65
and bananas aren't dumb? ^^
No, because I can actually mess up and lose my momentum. You can also pick up my bananas and banana game me back. Zelda can even reflect the bananas if I'm not careful...

Her Usmash? Just run up to me and C-Stick Up. Can't miss it unless I shield, which I take considerable shield damage for. Oh look, you can do it again! And again... and again... and again... (exaggeration pl0x). :p

I know it's not that spammable but, it is really is used quite often and because it's inescapable (now that I know for sure) that just makes it even more ridick.

But, againz, thanks.
 

Kataefi

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#66
Usmash is integral to her game as much as bananas are to diddy! If she whiffs it or you shield it, she's done for. If she stales it, she might struggle for the kill.

Shield it and punish. Don't ever be on top of her. Bait her USmash and punish because of it's long duration.
 

goodkid

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#67
Up-Smash is possible to DI out of, a couple players online constantly DI out, F-Smash is easy, theres even an explanation video on youtube for it. Whats wrong w/ Zelda having power? Up-Smash isn't too hard to avoid if your playing smart & it doesn't shield stab half the time.
 

Kataefi

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#68
only for certain characters though like ness, lucas, ice climbers and others. Faster falling characters like diddy and falco struggle to SDI out of it.
 
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#69
I NEED to know Zelda's IN DEPTH Frame Data D:< I need it badly

Can someone do it for us, or at least the exact frames of Din's Fire? pl0x >: l
 
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#70
I need to double post sorry mods >_>

Anyway, my ^ earlier post requested frame data for Din's Fire and now that the G & W are discussing Zelda/Shiek (though all the Zeldas are kind of stupid that they say change to Sheik well at least mention what can Zelda do >_> j/k ;)) something I posted a while back came back to my memory :0

I mentioned that Din's Fire took out G&W out of the turtle and then Mr. Sonic said that it was impossible and bla bla bla flames flames flames and stuff ^__^ If you didn't do it Sonic (because my memory is horrendous) I'm sorry, if you did, shame on you >: l

So I was checking frame data for G&W and I was happy to see this :0

Someone with no life :) at the G&W forums said:
Bair
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-9 Startup
• 10-11 Hitbox out
• 13-14 Hitbox out
• 16-17 Hitbox out
• 19-20 Hitbox out
• 22-23 Hitbox out
• 24-39 Aerial cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 39
1st hit on: 10
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 16
4th hit on: 19
5th hit on: 22
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 16
Landing lag: 12

Grounded Hitbox:
This hitbox can appear between frames 10 and 39. Appears on landing and lasts for 2 frames. This is the hitbox with noticeable knockback.
It starts at frame 10 and since it's a multihit, it has various hits >_> so it's from 10 to 11 and then there's 1 frame without hitbox and then the next hitbox comes out

So it's like :

10-11---->13-14---->16-17---->19-20---->22
++++^
+
+
+
This is where you should detonate Din's Fire :ohwell:

I have no idea on how the turtle works so please someone who HAS A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE on Mr. G&W explain it to me

I think this could be useful in the matchup and it's kind of situational so :confused:

If you already knew this good for you, don't try to play the "I'm too knowledgable blablabla"
It's disgusting ;)
 

Bandit

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#71
The biggest problem is you have to bait & space for this to happen but not allow him to bucket your dins. I'm not saying it is impossible, it is just difficult.
 

-Mars-

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#72
That's interesting Royal Blood. You should probably contact A2ZOMG, he seems to know a lot about the turtle and its properties.
 
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#73
Red_Bandit said:
The biggest problem is you have to bait & space for this to happen but not allow him to bucket your dins. I'm not saying it is impossible, it is just difficult
RoyalBlood said:
I think this could be useful in the matchup and it's kind of situational so :confused:
If this works, it's purpose is to combat the turtle and also find a way to stop Mr. G&W if he uses the turtle not find a way to damage G&W

Zelda's Smashes can do that quite well

Marsulas said:
That's interesting Royal Blood. You should probably contact A2ZOMG, he seems to know a lot about the turtle and its properties.
This is the response I got from the "missing hitbox" question:

A2ZOMG said:
I highly doubt it. I'm pretty sure the attack is composed of hitbox durations that are directly linked to one another without gaps (except for the gaps of lag you experience between connecting hits, but a dodge can't really avoid it).
But then, it wouldn't be a multi-hit right? Then you wouldn't be able to DI out from it?

What is a multi-hit?

What happens in that frame?

The frame data guide said that the hitbox stays out for 2 frames :

10-11--->13-14---> etc

But to strenghten my previous statement about the part where the turtle has no hitbox I present you this:

RyokoYaksa said:
Also, if Marth blocks the Fsmash, he can Up+B in between the little hits before the move even gets a chance to hit hard
Sorry for quoting you RyokoYaksa but I need to know this

Blocking means shield right? Why can he do it? Because his Up-b has invincibility? Because it comes at frame 1?

And the ones of you that were at the Jigglypuff discussion at the Jiggypluff boards may have noticed that some of the jigglypuffs mentioned that Jiggly may be able to get out of Usmash by resting ;) But since Jigglypuff is in hitstun while in Usmash I doubt it's possible

Anyway, you may also know that Marth and MK players tend to use their UP-Bs when Mr. G&W gets them in the turtle, but revisiting A2ZOMG response he says that the turtle has hitboxs interlaced that means one hitbox goes to another BUT in the Mr. G&W Frame Data thread it says the hitbox is out for 2 frames and then it skips 1 frame and the next hitbox comes out, if that is the case maybe that's why Marth and MK are able to get out of the turtle because if not they would experiment the same predicament of Jigglypuff in Zelda's Usmash, Jigglypuff is in hitsun and unable to initiate an attack due to being hit

My conclusion is that Mr. G&W turtle indeed has an instant where there is not hitbox present, physically yes but a damaging hitbox, no

That may be the cause I was able to take out Mr. G&W out of the turtle, even when Din's Fire travel distance was quite short since the hitbox is not there to cancel it

And it's uncommon since you have only 1 frame to detonate Din's Fire

That's why I need frame data because I don't know if Din's Fire explodes the instant moment Zelda does her animation, like a clap

I also don't know if it explodes later and then you have to time it before time and stuff

And also since Din's Fire is a projectile, but it's different than all the other projectiles, Din's Fire won't hurt anything until Zelda detonates it, if it touches a character or any of their atributtes (swords, parasol etc.) It won't explode, same with Mr. G&W turtle.

Din's Fire is like travelling air

Marth and MK are able to get out of it because in the frame where the hitbox disappears they get out of hit stun and are able to initiate their attacks since both come out at frame 1 and have invincibility AND multi hits have almost null hitstun

Jigglypuff can't get out of Usmash because she's still in hitsun?

Then my question is Are all multi-hits the same? Do they have the same properties?
If so, why?

That's why I need Frame data for Zelda, the mechanics of the turtle AND how does a multi-hit functions

In Smashwiki there is no info about multi hitters and I don't know who should I contact

RyokoYaksa? Ankoku? A smash researcher?

Are they trustable? Do they capture frame data right? They still play Brawl?

All of this needs confirmation because I've searched for frame data on characters boards who have multi hitters and surprinsingly none of them explain in depth the multi hits except G&W


If you know someone in which you or I can trust, please ask them and then explain me please

Thanks in advance people
 

Kataefi

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#74
Great post! Also, I'd like to know the amount of stun in frames her moves do on shields, because if she has a big enough frame advantage she may be able to pull out another move safely without her enemy even being able to recover from the stun.

Accurate frame data would be brilliant! But where would be find them?
 

GodAtHand

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#75
Question: What methods do you (Zelda mains) personally find the most consistent to back air OOS?

I use the claw (jump with y using index then hit whatever direction with c-stick with thumb), but if I like to be prepared its not always the simplest way to preform that move...
 
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#76
Slide thumb from X to A. Really easy.

Just place you thumb in the wedge between the two buttons then just roll your thumb like you're getting fingerprints. Done. Can kick another Zelda in the face OOS that way.
 

Villi

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#77
I'm fairly certain that the only way to count the hitboxes of an attack is to hit something with the attack. When an attack hits an object, there's an occurence called hit lag. That means that the attacker is frozen momentarily in the act of attacking. The amount of time the attacker is frozen is depentant on the attack he is using. If you've noticed hitting anything with your nair, you'll notice that you seem to slow down mid-air as you attack. As this is happening, the character you are attacking is also experiencing hit-stun or shield hit-stun.

Because G&W's bair is a rapid multi-hit attack, it makes sense that the weak hits of his bair would not have much hit lag. My guess is that the single frames between his bair are his hit lag frames. If he's not hitting anything, he doesn't have hit-lag frames; therefore, he has a constant hitbox -- no gaps.

Btw, are you sure you didn't just hit G&W from behind where you might have been able to avoid the turtle hitbox nullifying your Din's?

The reason Marth might be able to attack in one of those two gaps between the sets of five hits and before the last hit is because Zelda's up smash cereal gives her hit lag but doesn't give Marth enough shield stun frames so he can't up b out of his shield since the attacks are so weak.
 

-Mars-

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#78
Am I the only one who has discovered that you can tech Zelda's dsmash and end up right in front of her?
 

-Mars-

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#80
Hmmm I guessed as much, I think I was DI'ing down at the time as well but i'm not sure. Hopefully this isn't something that is taken advantage of by top players like teching Falco's spike........timing for it is extremely difficult.
 
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