Zelda needs the 6.0 Jiggs treatment

YaraNooki

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
11
#1
If you play Zelda then you know that she has some sauce, but it’s super inconsistent. Zelda needs the 6.0 Jiggs treatment, meaning that the balance team buffs her combo starters so that she can use her entire kit. Starting with...

Down Throw
This move is the most convincing tease in the game. In training mode it appears to true combo out into back air, but it simply doesn’t work that way in practice. Opponents can DI behind Zelda, in front of Zelda, or not DI at all, forcing Zelda to read a 1/3 mixup or miss. Using Nair instead of back air is still a 1/2 chance, as Nair can’t cover both DI towards Zelda and DI away from Zelda at the same time. The move was clearly designed as a combo starter but there’s too much variance in how it works. With a “6.0 Jiggs” buff, down throw should combo into back air CONSISTENTLY at low to mid percents, and be a 50/50 into up air at high percents. This would be consistent with the nerfed checkmate, beep boop, koo-pa and hoo hah used by Robin, Rob, Bowser and Diddy, respectively.

Down Tilt
Down tilt’s angle was intentionally nerfed from smash 4, which makes me doubt that it will ever be adjusted. That said, this is the other major combo starter that Zelda needs. Down tilt +jab, Down tilt + f-tilt, down tilt + nair, and down tilt + f-air need to return as true combos, at least at low percents. The move is useless for most everything except two-framing now, and Zelda desperately needs the utility it once provided.

My rationale is simple: make Zelda play the way she was designed to play. As a character with short ranged, clunky-but-powerful aerials, Zelda generally loses the air game in neutral. Consequently, her ground game should excel at popping enemies into the air where they can punished by her aerial finishers, rewarding Zelda for winning neutral with a limited moveset. As it stands right now, Zelda is a glass cannon character without a consistent way of using her “cannon” (the kick), and so she’s often smothered by her competition despite having Nayru’s “best defensive move on WiFi” Love and solid edge guarding potential.

6.0 proved that the balance team knows how to “connect the dots” and fill in the missing pieces in low tier characters’ kits. Hopefully 7.0 will have something in store for Zelda.
 
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stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#2
I agree a thousand percent.

To my knowledge Zelda has not received a SINGLE buff ever in this game.

It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY past time.

Been my main pretty much since launch, I have over 7K games with her, an embarrassing number of hours playing her, over 5.6M GSP... there are some SERIOUS flaws in this character that NEED addressed.

Grabs/Throws
So my beef with this isn't NECESSARILY the fact down throw doesn't always combo connect (I mean I DO agree it's usually a guessing game, although I normally just nair instead of bair or fair because nair connects almost all the time at low percents - at high percents i typically try to up air) but that her grab in general is VERY VERY lackluster. Zelda's grab is how she kills and gets a lot of her damage but it comes out on like frame a frillion and has the crappiest range of almost any character. It's an AWFUL grab... and I mean AWFUL... perhaps the worst in the entire game. IMHO this needs fixed BIG TIME. Her grab speed should be cut in half or even more than half and the range slightly increased so it can become an actual threat. And I'm talking about all her grabs... normal, dash, out of shield, pivot... they ALL need a buff.

Phantom
This move is the best thing in her kit but I really think it needs to do more damage and knockback. I'd REALLY like for it to not be considered a projectile but that's probably going a bit too far. If Phantom did more damage and killed a bit earlier I think that'd be enough.

Down Tilt
Where as her grab is my BIGGEST beef her down tilt is SUPER SUPER SUPER SUPER nerfed from 4. I agree with everything you said on this. It 2 frames really good (actually surprised at how good it is at 2 framing people) but that's it's ONLY utility. It NEEDS more range BADLY.

I really hope nintendo reads these forums because these changes I'd consider quality of life changes for her. Things that SHOULD work a certain way just don't because they weren't done correctly.

And on the topic of Zelda... her amiibo REALLY needs a fix too. She can't use phantom well at all, doesn't angle din's fire practically ever, and cannot see the other end of her teleport hitbox (the reappearing hitbox - she just doesn't know that it exists). All these things I'd actually consider bugs.
 
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Codebox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
66
#3
As much as I love Zelda in this game compared to previously she does need some buffs. Honestly I feel just any buff to frame data would suffice. As for any one's I would feel would solidify her as of now

Less landing lag on aerials (at least make them end 4 frames earlier)
F-Tilt decreased end lag
Connecting Nair
Grab 5 frames less lag
Fair/bair increased hitbox size
D-tilt angle adjustment (Smash 4 D-tilt angle preferably)

I feel with any of these Zelda will be on the right track, just any buff at this point needs to happen. Gotta be more vocal about this.
 

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#5
tbh Zelda is such a mess that I can't ever seem to suggest the same buffs every time this type of thread comes up. She's like a standard noobstomper and 2v2 cheeser. She can do something REALLY well, but it's not viable past medium levels of play. So either they redesign her core or make her more annoying features weaker while making her ground game stronger. She's ironically garbo midair with how her hitboxes are and how vulnerable she is midair. So she may as well be good on the ground since even a better/bigger Nair won't really save her from being ez-juggled.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#6
I agree.

I think buffing her grab and throw game in a HUGE way (like serious... her grabs are GARBAGE) and making Phantom and D-Tilt better would go a LONG way helping this character to be relevant. I have over 7K games played with her and Zelda's disadvantage state is probably one of the worst.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#7
I always thought she was fine as she is, and we should just get better at adjusting with the new meta. I, personally, just suck at neutral. My punish game is sometimes ridiculous, but it's not very polished. When it does happen, however, I'm killing people at like 40... or less.

But this isn't about me, I'm just trying to show that Zelda's definitely got the "canon" part, when you do things right. The only buff I'd add is give her a real grab. Our grab is hideously bad. Standing grab is Frame 10, has mediocre range and you're probably better off doing any of the Kicks (Frame 9s), Up B (Frame 6) or even U-Smash (Frame 9, hits on both sides, I think). Dash Grab is Frame 13, and it's not like it's a tether. It's just as bad as Standing Grab, but with even more lag. 80% of the time, I probably get my grabs off of Pivot Grabs. Sure, it's Frame 14, but it's like twice the size of the other two, as well as safer. If she had a real grab, she'd be far more silly. Our grab game isn't so bad, it's getting the grab itself that's so bad. I've grabbed characters like Wario, Ridley and even Ganondorf on 45% at the ledge and they just died. I can't see how it would be a bad thing if, like you mention, she at least had a consistent "HOO HAA" or D-Throw > Uair, but then it'd make her consistently kill people at 80-90, but she'd still ocassionally struggle to actually grab people.

Our new D-Tilt isn't actually all that bad. I land D-Tilt > Fair fairly consistent and kill at around 60 at the ledge, with it. I've even gotten it at higher percentages like 70-80, if their DI is off.

This is an error.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
#8
I've really been thinking about this and I think if Zelda's Nair was -6 that would be fair. It would give her some interesting mixups, like her jab would trade with a 6-frame grab oos only if her timing is frame perfect. She can frame trap with neutral b or bait with dodges/shield. It's not completely broken, like she doesn't get a free up-b on someone's shield out of it. It makes her offense more viable. She can actually attack Cloud's shield, maybe? At least give her one aerial with good frame data, please. You don't even have to change her landing lag, just give her more shield stun. Just give her a fair chance at a real mix-up from a jump-in.

I don't really hate Zelda's grab that much but I wouldn't complain if she had more range or a faster grab. It's better than a lot of grabs in terms of range, tbh and her oos options make grab out of shield a little unnecessary but there are times in neutral when her slow grab is kind of upsetting. Like peach is just a little faster with a 6 frame grab and her grab game is pretty disgusting.

I don't really hate anything else about her... Her movement is pretty bad. Like, she doesn't jump very high. She doesn't walk very fast or run very fast. But that's not the biggest deal. I wouldn't complain if her full hop or double jump were higher.

Her side tilts are fairly unused in my gameplay. I don't know what the rationale is for them being so slow, really. Would it be broken if they were 3 frames faster? Heck, if they were 6-7 frames with a reduction in knockback it would give her an actually useful tool for whiff punishing or reaching out of shield.

Oh I can't believe I forgot. Can Zelda's upsmash please have a foot hit-box like the swordies? I'll take that buff over an ftilt buff any day.
 
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stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#9
Lot in both of these posts.

I guess it comes down to play style with her.

I grab a LOT because of the high damage potential on D-Throw and of course pretty much an insta kill at high %s. So I look at her grab as her biggest problem. Personally I think the speed it comes out should be cut in half and the range slightly increased.

Our new D-Tilt isn't actually all that bad. I land D-Tilt > Fair fairly consistent and kill at around 60 at the ledge, with it. I've even gotten it at higher percentages like 70-80, if their DI is off.
As far as other moves they're just wish lists but I'm curious as to when you actually get a chance to d-tilt? I NEVER throw this move out randomly because of it's sucky range. I NEVER connect this move unless it's a two frame (which admittedly it's VERY good at).

Her side tilts are fairly unused in my gameplay. I don't know what the rationale is for them being so slow, really. Would it be broken if they were 3 frames faster? Heck, if they were 6-7 frames with a reduction in knockback it would give her an actually useful tool for whiff punishing or reaching out of shield.
As far as f-tilt goes... I use that move ALL THE TIME. The only matches I don't use it in is if the character is really small (like kirby or pickachu) because it goes right over their heads (I know you can angle it but still it's pretty obnoxious to miss because the character is 2 inches tall). F-tilt may be slow but it has incredible range and knockback. The ranch actually contests some sword characters (like Marth and Lucina). F-tilt also kills by the way. It'd be nice to be faster sure but it really never crosses my mind when I think of things Zelda needs for buffs.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#10
I guess it comes down to play style with her.

I grab a LOT because of the high damage potential on D-Throw and of course pretty much an insta kill at high %s. So I look at her grab as her biggest problem. Personally I think the speed it comes out should be cut in half and the range slightly increased.
Well, that's because people let you grab them. My friend whom I play very often, plays Wario, and he hardly ever just sits in shield. 80% of the time, he's probably in the air, doing something. And even when he's grounded, Zelda's Dash Grab is so bad and so slow, he just spotdodges. Just looking at her Dash Grab is offensive. It's like this unsightly, stiff-looking animation that just halts all momentum and waves her arms for a couple of frames only to be stuck in it for another 40 frames.

And as for D-Tilt, most Zeldas probably aren't using this move. It's very neglected. A lot of Zeldas probably prefer D-Smash, since it's just as fast and they want to get people off of them. I don't, honestly. I find D-Tilt a lot better, because it leads to things. And as to when I'm using it? I don't really think about it, I just kind of do. I use it a lot to just poke on people's shields, and somewhat mix it in with Jab 1. The idea isn't to mindlessly poke on someone's shield, since that just makes it easy to parry. But you try to time it in different ways, and sometimes you can even low profile under certain aerials.

These are my examples:

https://streamable.com/mjn2f
https://streamable.com/je6l2
https://streamable.com/ow9z7 (I failed the confirm here, but I think the idea is there)

It's -10 on shield, which is not really safe at point blank... but I have been realising, it's actually kind of safe when you space it properly, given how she ducks under things and it's the tip of her foot that hits. Just yesterday, I was fascinated at how I'm starting to learn how to reverse it (like Ken and Ryu) so I can create pressure like that.

I think most Zeldas probably neglect her normals like these because they're too busy trying to zone people out with Phantom. Ironically, I find that this is where Zelda's broken aspects come into play. A Frame 5 move that leads into a kill confirm at 50-60? Similiar with Dair.
And I agree on F-Tilt, it's also a very underused and underrated move. I personally mostly use it by accident, but I also aknowledge that's pretty unparalled as far as our defensive moves go. It's far more consistent than F-Smash at zoning. I should really use it more.
 
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stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#11
Again, play style.

I use phantom A LOT and it conditions people to shield... which I LOVE. Phantom is a TRAP NOT a hitbox to throw out (unless edge guarding). That's how I look at it anyways. If the opponent goes in shield or tries to jump that's when Zelda kills you. In neutral with both of us up close i tend to jab a lot because it comes out so insanely fast and I'll throw out the occasional f-tilt. I used to love dair on stage but too many characters punish people above them far too easy I got out of the habit.

If the opponent does an unsafe attack on my shield I typically try to bair/fair them but if they're SUPER in my bubble they're going to get up-b'd.

Watching your clips it seems that the opponent didn't really try to punish you getting in their face (which I feel is where Zelda really struggles) (that link LOVED to shield in which case I would have been grabbing him). The d-tilt range is so small that you have to be REALLY close to hit with it. Maybe I just don't know because I don't use it in neutral but that's how I've thought of it.
 
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BunnyChuChu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
4
#12
I will try to talk to a few points which I read repeatedly in this thread.

Zelda's grab-
Check the hitbox on her pivot grab. Bowser would nod in approval. This fits her archetype and so unsurprisingly it's realllly good, whereas good frame data on her dash grab would be weird. someone said 5 frames faster.. you want her to match joker? Naaaaah.
As for the d throw follow ups, I find it's hard online and pretty consistent offline. Don't let wifi color your impression too much.

D tilt-
Personally, I'm glad this doesn't confirm into fair. I think it would be so good that we would be pidgeon holed into fishing for it. It is our safest tool on shield and it confirms into dash attack at a lot of percents. Easy advantage state. Also, comparing to smash 4 our jab is SEVEN frames faster and up tilt and its follow ups got a lot better. All good by me.

Nair-
Pls make it hit consistently for the love of god. We all agree on this right? Right.

F tilt-
With f smash and other tilts being better it's hard to find much use.

For me, maybe we could get the dk/robin treatment and have phantom charge a teeny bit faster.

Yeah? Nah?
 

BunnyChuChu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
4
#13
Also, two more things.

Zelda's initial dash is 15 frames which makes it just 1 frame shy of the slowest/longest in the game (sorry robin.) For robin it's not a big deal but zelda utilizes ground movement and tilts a lot so for her this is seriously detrimental. If it was shorter, maybe 10 frames like most characters it would be a great way to gently buff her.

Also, side b ought to have better frame data. Why does it take 14 frames to explode after releasing the b button? It's a completely telegraphed move. From releasing b its 39 frames until you can act. I'd definitely like to see the frame data of this improved, perhaps dramatically.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#14
So I agree with some things BunnyChuChu BunnyChuChu had to say but most I disagree with.

Her grab game is laughingly awful. YES, I’d like all her grabs to be joker quick. Zelda grabs are some of her absolute best damage tools but it’s pathetically hard to pull them off. Why in the love of all things is her grab speed like the slowest in the game?!?! It’s so dumb. And the range on all her grabs except for pivot are pathetic. I don’t think Zelda will anywhere near be a good character until this is improved.

Down tilt is my least used tilt. I’d like to see the range increased and that would be sufficient. A hard confirm into fair would be bad, I agree.

Forward tilt is SUPER useful. I dunno why you all think it’s bad. It’s range rivals some swords and is probably my most used tilt. I don’t see too much wrong with this move.

Zelda’s dash or dash attack?? Her dash I agree is bad, her dash attack on the other hand is one of the best in the game AND it kills.

Side B... eh... probably could use some adjustments to frame data but I’m not too shook on that move.

Ok, now some bragging rights :pimp::pimp::pimp:
My current GSP as of this morning!
 
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daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
#15
I feel like it's a playstyle thing. I love dtilt. Probably my most used tilt with Zelda, actually. And it does combo into fair at low percents which is nothing to sneeze at. It's also safe on block if it's spaced well. Dtilt opens a mixup on block to fair. I would definitely go for a jab or dtilt mixup over an ftilt.

I am working on tilt sticking recently and I don't know. I still hate ftilt. I don't find it that valuable against swordies since I prefer spacing with sh and using uptilt. It's only useful in really specific situations like ledge trapping (as if I were a swordie) or as a quick for turning around and attacking. Downsmash is also frame12 on the back-hit and has a better knockback trajectory.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#16
I feel like it's a playstyle thing. I love dtilt. Probably my most used tilt with Zelda, actually. And it does combo into fair at low percents which is nothing to sneeze at. It's also safe on block if it's spaced well. Dtilt opens a mixup on block to fair. I would definitely go for a jab or dtilt mixup over an ftilt.

I am working on tilt sticking recently and I don't know. I still hate ftilt. I don't find it that valuable against swordies since I prefer spacing with sh and using uptilt. It's only useful in really specific situations like ledge trapping (as if I were a swordie) or as a quick for turning around and attacking. Downsmash is also frame12 on the back-hit and has a better knockback trajectory.
My c-stick is always on tilt with Zelda. Dtilt has such little range that ftilt just feels better to me. I'd encourage you to use it more, it's slower but it has really crazy knockback and can kill on the ledge. I'll throw out ftilt whenever I have someone chasing me down. Turn around ftilt. Most people never see it coming. Jab on the other hand is awesome and is what I use against small characters because ftilt goes right over their heads. Jab comes out really fast and also great at spacing people out.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#17
Fsmash is only transcendent on the final hit I believe, so while it has good option coverage, it is vulnerable to larger disjoints. That's where F-Tilt can come in and cover that hole, stuffing those disjoint spammers. Fsmash outclasses it nearly every way and is comparable on speed, but F-Tilt is good for those specific situations.

If anything is lacking a purpose, it's Up-Smash. There aren't very many situations I can think of, where it would be more desirable than any other option. It's far too slow and long lasting for the range it covers and the knockback is fairly lackluster. It is Zelda's laggiest and least versatile normal, and has one of the worst rewards. The only real situation I can think of, is OoS against certain aerial cross-ups. There's a better option in pretty much every other scenario.

I think she's fine otherwise, outside of some minor tweaks like the aforementioned grab. And I think the dev team agrees, which is why she hasn't gotten any buffs. I'd imagine the only changes we are going to see, are minor ones. The only characters that got substantial changes, were those that have been absent from high placings in tournaments (Kirby, Mac, etc). Zelda's gotten good results so far, so it doesn't seem like they'll be in any rush to change that.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#18
D tilt-
Personally, I'm glad this doesn't confirm into fair.
It does confirm into Fair lawl. It's just not a free combo like a lot of other characters have it. Apparently, you can even combo it into Attack Canceled Bair, but I don't feel like mapping jump on a shoulder button just to kill 5% earlier.

It's also not that safe. Fair and Dair are safer, and the only time it's safe it's when it's properly spaced. -10 isn't that bad for a tilt, however.
 
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Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#19
If anything is lacking a purpose, it's Up-Smash. There aren't very many situations I can think of, where it would be more desirable than any other option. It's far too slow and long lasting for the range it covers and the knockback is fairly lackluster. It is Zelda's laggiest and least versatile normal, and has one of the worst rewards. The only real situation I can think of, is OoS against certain aerial cross-ups. There's a better option in pretty much every other scenario.
Unless you're referring to it's endlag, it's actually one of our quickest OoS options. It's Frame 9. It could probably be the answer anti aerial to a lot of the annoying jump characters, like Wario, Jigglypuff, etc. Some people feel too comfterble in thinking they can just jump on top of you and hit, and this helps. And as mentioned, the counter crossup value. Neither Up B nor Kick seem to catch something like Wario Nair as well, while U Smash does. It's knockback is also surprisingly decent, probably killing 110, and closer to 100 (or less) with rage. It just feels a little stiff, like it halts all momentum and leaves you hanging if you whiff.
 
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Ysor

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 29, 2016
Messages
8
#20
If U smash was a little bigger so it was wider and slightly more disjointed from the top and had a ground drag it'd be great.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#21
stixie stixie I think it's exactly that mentality, your aversion towards normals like Dtilt is part of what's holding the Zelda meta back. I'm pretty sure most Zelda players think that way, since I hardly ever see them use these moves as much as I do. Conventional Zelda players focus too much on zoning people out and overuse specials, to the point they're heavily lacking at actually keeping off of them because they don't know to use normals well. It's not like you're even trying to incorporate Dtilt, which is part of what makes the new Zelda ridiculous (kill confirm at 40-70? ****). You automatically discard it. Zelda isn't going to make it by playing the same game people played for years. Zelda players are doing the exact same things they did for years, and expect it to be any different in Ultimate.

On the flip side, I'm actually pretty bad at the area most Zeldas are (supposed to be) good at. I hardly ever use Phantom, and it's not like my ledgetrapping is anything to brag about when I do. I don't think any smart players sit in shield for waiting for Zelda to come running across the stage so she can shield grab. Smart players either won't bother approaching or find another way around it (literally).

I feel it's basically the exact same dilemma with K.Rool players. They're so focused on Crown & Neutral B that I don't ever seem them use stuff like the rest of their kit as much as they should. Fair is fairly safe on shield (when spaced), and Nair was still solid, even prepatch (as an OoS or somewhat to land). Bair is also surprisingly good on shield, etc.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#22
stixie stixie I think it's exactly that mentality, your aversion towards normals like Dtilt is part of what's holding the Zelda meta back. I'm pretty sure most Zelda players think that way, since I hardly ever see them use these moves as much as I do. Conventional Zelda players focus too much on zoning people out and overuse specials, to the point they're heavily lacking at actually keeping off of them because they don't know to use normals well. It's not like you're even trying to incorporate Dtilt, which is part of what makes the new Zelda ridiculous (kill confirm at 40-70? ****). You automatically discard it. Zelda isn't going to make it by playing the same game people played for years. Zelda players are doing the exact same things they did for years, and expect it to be any different in Ultimate.

On the flip side, I'm actually pretty bad at the area most Zeldas are (supposed to be) good at. I hardly ever use Phantom, and it's not like my ledgetrapping is anything to brag about when I do. I don't think any smart players sit in shield for waiting for Zelda to come running across the stage so she can shield grab. Smart players either won't bother approaching or find another way around it (literally).

I feel it's basically the exact same dilemma with K.Rool players. They're so focused on Crown & Neutral B that I don't ever seem them use stuff like the rest of their kit as much as they should. Fair is fairly safe on shield (when spaced), and Nair was still solid, even prepatch (as an OoS or somewhat to land). Bair is also surprisingly good on shield, etc.
Hm...

I dunno. I use phantom A LOT but I'm pretty aggressive. Where I feel Zelda's fail is trying to sit on the other side of the stage camping. That's how you lose.

I use all of Zelda's tilts (down pretty exclusively to 2 frame), all her smash attacks, and all her arials.

On the topic of up smash for S StoicPhantom it's an incredible ledge trapping option. Like mario uses it for. Set up phantom and stand back for up smashing rolls. It actually works great. It also is great for snuffing out arial approaches from obnoxious players that like to land on top of you (like puff, kirby etc). It has pretty good vertical range.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#23
Unless you're referring to it's endlag, it's actually one of our quickest OoS options. It's Frame 9. It could probably be the answer anti aerial to a lot of the annoying jump characters, like Wario, Jigglypuff, etc. Some people feel too comfterble in thinking they can just jump on top of you and hit, and this helps. And as mentioned, the counter crossup value. Neither Up B nor Kick seem to catch something like Wario Nair as well, while U Smash does. It's knockback is also surprisingly decent, probably killing 110, and closer to 100 (or less) with rage. It just feels a little stiff, like it halts all momentum and leaves you hanging if you whiff.
I'm talking about the entirety of the move. It's got a FAF of 64, meaning your opponent can punish with almost anything. For reference, the startup of Falcon Punch is faster. Having that much risk on whiff, with power <= Fsmash, while sending your opponent straight up as opposed to offstage like her other punishes, doesn't hit above the platform (except the final, very telegraphed hit), and no real follow up potential, doesn't seem like a good risk/reward ratio to me.

My experience has kill potential anywhere from 130-150 depending on weight and DI. Given that and the above, it feels like Nair and Up-Tilt are better anti-airs, with potential ledgetrap and juggle follow ups. Not that it is a horrible option, but with the risk/reward there seems to always be a better and/or safer option.

On the topic of up smash for S StoicPhantom it's an incredible ledge trapping option. Like mario uses it for. Set up phantom and stand back for up smashing rolls. It actually works great. It also is great for snuffing out arial approaches from obnoxious players that like to land on top of you (like puff, kirby etc). It has pretty good vertical range.
Those would fall under the niche use cases yeah, although I prefer to Fsmash rolls, given it sends them back offstage. Depending on the stage, Fsmash will still kill faster, even with the knockback angle. I just think it could be a little more rewarding, given the risk and awkwardness. I mean with two disjointed multi-hits, one being safer and stronger while covering more options more effectively, there doesn't seem to be much use for Up-Smash over Fsmash, outside of opponents directly overhead. At that point, Up-Tilt is a stronger disjoint, being transcendent as opposed to being intangible, while having better follow up potential, and actually poking above the platform. Given the dominance of disjoints in this game, it's a safer bet you're going to be running into swordies rather the likes of Kirby and Puff.

It just needs something to distinguish itself from other options. It kinda feels to me like the difference between Smash 4 Robin's Up-Smash versus Up-air. Robin's Up-Smash was this tiny hitbox that went straight up, with no hibox on the side or anything and was Robin's weakest smash. Up-air in comparison was a near 360 degree hitbox that was really powerful and comboed into itself. There was little point in ever using Up-Smash.

Ultimate Robin's Up-Smash got a revamp in power and hitbox size and has some actual use. Zelda's in comparison, seems to have got a vertical nerf while spreading the horizontal. Said horizontal is already covered by everything from Up-Tilt to Nair. I'd definitely like a good shield pressuring tool for those camping on platforms, which we currently don't have. That'd be Up-Smash if it could actually hit above the platform with all of its hits, which IIRC was the case in Smash 4.
 

daddypeach

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
36
#24
If upsmash had a foot hit-box, I would be happier with it. Maybe there are some niche shield-poke set-ups with it.

My c-stick is always on tilt with Zelda. Dtilt has such little range that ftilt just feels better to me. I'd encourage you to use it more, it's slower but it has really crazy knockback and can kill on the ledge. I'll throw out ftilt whenever I have someone chasing me down. Turn around ftilt. Most people never see it coming. Jab on the other hand is awesome and is what I use against small characters because ftilt goes right over their heads. Jab comes out really fast and also great at spacing people out.
I feel like dtilt is a fine aggressive option. It's 5 frames and only -10 on block. I'm pretty sure it outranges most grabs, so that's a free mix-up. It's kind of hard to react to because it's only 22 FAF, so usually it's a free follow-up. If they are reacting too quickly to it, they are being twitchy more likely than not and you can take advantage of that.

PC ftilt is great, but it's much more reactable since it has noticeably more shield-lag. The ftilt and dtilt are useful in different situations IMHO
 
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stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#25
I'm talking about the entirety of the move. It's got a FAF of 64, meaning your opponent can punish with almost anything. For reference, the startup of Falcon Punch is faster. Having that much risk on whiff, with power <= Fsmash, while sending your opponent straight up as opposed to offstage like her other punishes, doesn't hit above the platform (except the final, very telegraphed hit), and no real follow up potential, doesn't seem like a good risk/reward ratio to me.

My experience has kill potential anywhere from 130-150 depending on weight and DI. Given that and the above, it feels like Nair and Up-Tilt are better anti-airs, with potential ledgetrap and juggle follow ups. Not that it is a horrible option, but with the risk/reward there seems to always be a better and/or safer option.


Those would fall under the niche use cases yeah, although I prefer to Fsmash rolls, given it sends them back offstage. Depending on the stage, Fsmash will still kill faster, even with the knockback angle. I just think it could be a little more rewarding, given the risk and awkwardness. I mean with two disjointed multi-hits, one being safer and stronger while covering more options more effectively, there doesn't seem to be much use for Up-Smash over Fsmash, outside of opponents directly overhead. At that point, Up-Tilt is a stronger disjoint, being transcendent as opposed to being intangible, while having better follow up potential, and actually poking above the platform. Given the dominance of disjoints in this game, it's a safer bet you're going to be running into swordies rather the likes of Kirby and Puff.

It just needs something to distinguish itself from other options. It kinda feels to me like the difference between Smash 4 Robin's Up-Smash versus Up-air. Robin's Up-Smash was this tiny hitbox that went straight up, with no hibox on the side or anything and was Robin's weakest smash. Up-air in comparison was a near 360 degree hitbox that was really powerful and comboed into itself. There was little point in ever using Up-Smash.

Ultimate Robin's Up-Smash got a revamp in power and hitbox size and has some actual use. Zelda's in comparison, seems to have got a vertical nerf while spreading the horizontal. Said horizontal is already covered by everything from Up-Tilt to Nair. I'd definitely like a good shield pressuring tool for those camping on platforms, which we currently don't have. That'd be Up-Smash if it could actually hit above the platform with all of its hits, which IIRC was the case in Smash 4.
So I used to think this way too about her up smash but ledge trapping with it has REALLY changed my opinion. You can also up smash regular get ups. It's actually psychological (which is weird). The phantom will miss them and they will do a normal get up (thinking it's safe) almost every time and you just run up and up smash. The timing has to be right but you can catch them before they shield.

I'd encourage you to try it out and see if it doesn't change your mind.

Up smash is quicker start up than fsmash. And my fsmash is usually pretty stale LOL cause I use it to space people.
 
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Codebox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
66
#26
What buffs would solidify Zelda? Like what key components would really bring her better?

I'd just want faster grab, fixed Nair/D-Tilt and Buffed weight.
 

Brinzy

Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
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Messages
3,672
Location
Alexandria, VA
NNID
Brinzy
#27
stixie stixie I think it's exactly that mentality, your aversion towards normals like Dtilt is part of what's holding the Zelda meta back. I'm pretty sure most Zelda players think that way, since I hardly ever see them use these moves as much as I do. Conventional Zelda players focus too much on zoning people out and overuse specials, to the point they're heavily lacking at actually keeping off of them because they don't know to use normals well. It's not like you're even trying to incorporate Dtilt, which is part of what makes the new Zelda ridiculous (kill confirm at 40-70? ****). You automatically discard it. Zelda isn't going to make it by playing the same game people played for years. Zelda players are doing the exact same things they did for years, and expect it to be any different in Ultimate.
"Ridiculous" is pushing it. You can get those confirms on people who don't know how to DI and what to expect, but eventually you're going to start playing against better players. And the fact of the matter is that there are many other confirms in the game that lead to far more damage and more consistent kills. They come out faster, and they're usually safer, too.

As an example, I played several games online against a Greninja, and virtually everything he did confirmed into an early damage combo or a kill. He can chain safe tilts or dash attacks into killing fairs and Usmashes depending. Zelda has utilt x2 -> nair on some characters, d-throw -> nair/fair/bair at low %s, d-throw -> uair that can kill if they don't DI it right, dtilt -> fair that is anything but guaranteed... what else? Either way, that's one of dozens of matchups where you're punished far more for a mistake than he is.

There's no "playstyle deficit" that can make up for your kicks not auto-canceling, or those same kicks being unsafe on sourspot (and unsafe on SWEETSPOT at low %s), or those same kicks being the defining part of both Zelda's design and a large reason why she struggles. I don't need to get into other specifics like her grab or anything else, because that's already been touched upon. They've established that she's a slow, precision-based character that is supposed to land precise attacks that kill early. She's been bad in every game she's been in. I don't think that countless of us just haven't put it together over nearly two decades. She's just poorly designed, even if we like her design.

The fact that nair and Fsmash have been untouched while people still fall out of them is proof enough that this character's not on their radar for any significant changes anytime soon, but I would argue that even if she got some nice touches here and there, she's doomed to be underwhelming based on character design alone.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#28
Part of me felt like letting this slide off, but the other part feels like there's something more to say... and with that, I also invite S StoicPhantom to weigh in, not to feel like we're ganging up on you, but because he's generally more realistic and unbiased than I am (not to mention a better, general idea of metagame than I have, even beyond Zelda).

"Ridiculous" is pushing it. You can get those confirms on people who don't know how to DI and what to expect, but eventually you're going to start playing against better players. And the fact of the matter is that there are many other confirms in the game that lead to far more damage and more consistent kills. They come out faster, and they're usually safer, too.

As an example, I played several games online against a Greninja, and virtually everything he did confirmed into an early damage combo or a kill. He can chain safe tilts or dash attacks into killing fairs and Usmashes depending. Zelda has utilt x2 -> nair on some characters, d-throw -> nair/fair/bair at low %s, d-throw -> uair that can kill if they don't DI it right, dtilt -> fair that is anything but guaranteed... what else? Either way, that's one of dozens of matchups where you're punished far more for a mistake than he is.
I think you're partially correct, but also wrong. For one, I think being able to kill an opponent at 50-60 off of a Frame 5 move is pretty ridiculous (this being D-Tilt, of course). I repeat, I use this move a ton, and I'm very certain it does confirm if you do it right. It's just surprisingly harder than it looks, and I tend to know for sure that if I failed it, I buffered the dash wrong. There's even an AC Bair version, by an even better Zelda player than I am (don't have a link, but I encourage people to look it up on Katy Parry's Twitter).

And this isn't just against lower-levelled opponents, I've done this against a ton of people on most levels. DI away doesn't make a massive difference, I'm sure- and, if anything, it just helps kill earlier at like 50.

To the other part I mention you might be correct, it's definitely relevant to moves like Dair. I think Dair is our single strongest combo starter, being able to combo from 0 and into kill confirms up to like 120-130. It's Frame 14, and that's literally the only downside. I use this move a ton, so I do know how punishable it can be when you get predictable with it. But beyond that, it's apparently better off as a sort of mix up, and it's not even that bad when you consider that, ironically, it's Zelda's safest move at -6 on shield.

They're not as easy to fish, and maybe you're right. But it's also not meant to be that way, considering how Zelda is supposed to play. You should be able to do fine if you capitalize on good punishes. A lot of the time, I just need a good airdodge or spotdodge read, or a jump. It's stuff you get used to reading when you play these kind of characters. Greninja sure as hell can't kill at 20 out of a tech read. I'm pretty sure most characters bar Ganondorf nor max rage aura Lucario can't.

There's no "playstyle deficit" that can make up for your kicks not auto-canceling, or those same kicks being unsafe on sourspot (and unsafe on SWEETSPOT at low %s), or those same kicks being the defining part of both Zelda's design and a large reason why she struggles. I don't need to get into other specifics like her grab or anything else, because that's already been touched upon.
I mean, there is... you could start by not going for rogue Kicks at low percent (or like 0), and you shouldn't be doing rising Kick on most ocassions, anyway (exception being OoS punishes, which you should have down). Bowser's Up B OoS is also pretty commital if he happens to miss, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

And her grab is definitely pretty bad, in terms of frame data, but it's not like people won't ever sit in shield at one point or another. I tend to exaggerate this issue, myself.

They've established that she's a slow, precision-based character that is supposed to land precise attacks that kill early. She's been bad in every game she's been in. I don't think that countless of us just haven't put it together over nearly two decades. She's just poorly designed, even if we like her design.
I don't think people have gotten it, even after this long. Most Zelda players still think they can do the same thing and like it's going to be any different through games. Even ven still sticks to the "bread and butter" that's been established, even though she can do a lot more, now. Truth in the matter is, it's not Zelda that's the problem now, it's just our player base. I've seen it for years. They buff your main in the new game, but people will still keep complaining unless they literally completely redesign your character in a completely different way. I used to main Bowser in Brawl and Smash 4, and I think he was perfect in Smash 4 as it was. People kept putting excuses, still. He got one of the best grab kill confirms later on, and people still thought he wasn't that good. There's always an excuse.

People also think that the only way to be good at the metagame is to be fast and have a consistent shield poke option, like traditional top tiers like Peach, Pikachu, etc. I don't think people are exploiting Zelda enough, and they're just trying to fit her into this mold like it's the only way to be a good character.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#29
Part of me felt like letting this slide off, but the other part feels like there's something more to say... and with that, I also invite S StoicPhantom to weigh in, not to feel like we're ganging up on you, but because he's generally more realistic and unbiased than I am (not to mention a better, general idea of metagame than I have, even beyond Zelda).
Well for starters, comparing Zelda to a top tier like Greninja isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Greninja mops the floor with most of the cast and the initial hesitance to adopt him as a top tier really speaks to the bias people carry from previous games. Not having tools as good as Greninja is hardly an indictment on a character.

A character not being as good or as easy as a top tier doesn't make them bad. It just means that the top tier's moves are more versatile, across more situations. But a lower tier character can still be perfectly viable. There are many different approaches to winning a match and a character might not be good at one but will still function with another.


LK can be confirmed, the timing is just tight and requires a fair amount of practice. It's not just about timing the initial dash properly, you may also have to adjust the height at which you kick as well, depending on percentage and hurtbox. And a frame 5 setup that ducks under attacks is nothing to sneeze at either. It may not be as good as Greninja's low confirms, but plenty of characters would still be envious.

It's also important to remember that we are not robots. Just because you can escape something on paper, doesn't mean you'll have the reflexes to do so. The input lag in this game is already bad enough, then you have a frame 5 setup into a frame 9 confirm. The average human reaction is 16 frames and expecting perfect DI to a sudden attack is asking a bit much. Ultimate is not very reactive and while D-Tilt does have its issues, being easy to react to is not one.

And yeah, you should not be attempting to spam LK without purpose. It has specific situations where it will work really well, but the massive knockback means it needs some consideration as to when it should be used, in order to flow well with the rest of the kit.


As far as playstyle goes, her kit is broad and makes it easy to specialize and difficult to master, but if you want to maximize her potential it would behoove you to learn everything she has to offer. I'm not going to fault anyone for not wanting to delve into every obscure tech and combo tree, but if we're going to talk viability and whether Zelda is good or needs buffs/nerfs, we really should have everything she is currently capable of learned.

ven has insane ledge play, Mystearica has crazy combos, and scattered about the Zelda base are teleport cancels, Dair trees, Phantom tech, and tricks like B-reverse Nayru edgeguards. If one were to master all of these and more, then you would likely have your versatile character you're looking for. It's just that Zelda players tend to specialize in specific areas and don't seem to go about trying to learn all the tech like other character mains do.


And as far as Zelda viability goes, this has been hashed since the beginning and I'm not keen on repeating the cycle. She has the results, with ven doing consistently well at super majors. While most top players are still skeptical, she is trending upwards on tier lists and Salem and M2K have recently put her in high tier.

I don't think people have gotten it, even after this long. Most Zelda players still think they can do the same thing and like it's going to be any different through games. Even ven still sticks to the "bread and butter" that's been established, even though she can do a lot more, now. Truth in the matter is, it's not Zelda that's the problem now, it's just our player base. I've seen it for years. They buff your main in the new game, but people will still keep complaining unless they literally completely redesign your character in a completely different way. I used to main Bowser in Brawl and Smash 4, and I think he was perfect in Smash 4 as it was. People kept putting excuses, still. He got one of the best grab kill confirms later on, and people still thought he wasn't that good. There's always an excuse.
This I agree with as far as this subject goes. Yes, Zelda does not move very fast. So use her above average acceleration for ambushes or to juke attacks and counter. Yes, she isn't good at approaching. So punish people sitting in shield by charging Phantom and then double teaming them. Yes, she doesn't have the largest of hitboxs. So bait people into approaching and utilize her amazing defensive options.

She is among the best in terms of ledge trapping, defense, power, and is one of the hardest characters to edgeguard. She's also not horrible in almost everything else. It's just her disadvantage that's awful. But that's ok, no character is perfect. Even top tier mains will still find ways to nitpick their character. What matters is if you can work around those flaws.

Adaptation is key. If one approach or playstyle isn't working, then do another. And keep cycling through them until you've exhausted every option. It's quite frankly silly to worry about tiers, buffs, or viability this early in the game. Not only have we established that no one Zelda has mastered everything she has to offer, but the sheer amount of MUs makes it physically impossible for anyone to have learned everything there is to know about every MU. It takes years in other fighting games to completely understand everything about one particular MU. We have over 80 characters in this game. Don't be so quick to throw in the towel until we do.


So I used to think this way too about her up smash but ledge trapping with it has REALLY changed my opinion. You can also up smash regular get ups. It's actually psychological (which is weird). The phantom will miss them and they will do a normal get up (thinking it's safe) almost every time and you just run up and up smash. The timing has to be right but you can catch them before they shield.

I'd encourage you to try it out and see if it doesn't change your mind.

Up smash is quicker start up than fsmash. And my fsmash is usually pretty stale LOL cause I use it to space people.
I should also reply to this. I've been incredibly busy the past couple months due to life, so I didn't get a chance to respond until now.

The thing is, is that I have tried, early on in the game even. If the opponent sees you near the ledge like that, they can simply getup attack. If it had a toe hitbox like was previously mentioned, then sure it would be fine for ledge trapping. But getup attack, even without invincibility, will safely pass under it. And patient opponents will wait and see what you do, rather than try to getup immediately. In those cases, I find D-Tilt the better option, as its quickness combined with Zelda's good initial acceleration will always catch them by surprise and lead into a Fair or Dair kill.

Your second point is more viable, but if you time your Phantom charge to just before they snap to the ledge, then you'll be able to cover every ledge option they can take. And if they decide to wait on their getup, then their invincibility will run out before the Phantom completes it's charge and you can still cover every getup and ultimately force a 50-50 where they will have to jump or roll.

Otherwise, if your opponent wises up to your Phantom Up-smash combo, they can time their roll to avoid both and punish you from behind. Or they could drop from the ledge and then quickly do a rising aerial. It pays to be patient on the ledge after all and most skilled players will wait a bit if possible.


While Up-Smash is indeed faster in startup, Fsmash shifts Zelda's hurtbox back and has a huge hitbox directly in front of her. But most importantly, Fsmash is -16 on shield versus Up-Smash's -25. Properly spaced, Fsmash is safe on shield. Even improperly spaced won't yield a very big punish. Up-Smash on the other hand, allows for a shield drop and fairly heavy punish. Doubly so if the opponent deigns to parry the the rather obvious hitbox.


I tend to use a mix of Fsmash and F-Tilt for spacing, so my Fsmash isn't usually that stale. But to me, Fsmash's usefulness lies in it's ability to send people offstage. And it can do that even staled, provided it's not done from center stage at low percents. That then leads into Zelda's good edgeguarding and impeccable ledge trapping. Up-Smash just sends people straight up and only leads into the unreliable Up-air.

And that's my main issue with Up-Smash is that it doesn't lead into anything useful. Every one of Zelda's other moves either knocks the opponent offstage or confirms into another move. Up-Smash is both too laggy to follow up on and doesn't put the opponent offstage or kill early. Any usage of it is awkward for Zelda and usually forces her to use her Up-air to chase. It's FAF allows for opponents to easily DI and it's power isn't enough to counteract said DI, until higher percents.

If you have the Up-Smash read, you can land an LK or Up-B for the kill or any other move to combo or knock them offstage. It's pretty rare I land an Up-Smash and even rarer that I don't feel underwhelmed when I do. The versatility of her other moves overshadows Up-Smash. They are often just as fast, usually more powerful, send the opponent at more awkward angles or offstage, and can actually follow up. It struggles to even find a niche for itself, because at least one other move will do something better with less risk.

It just has a horrible risk/reward ratio and needs to either hit higher and lower than it does or be substantaillly more powerful.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#30
Glad you answered. I know how you weren't into these things as much as before, but I'm glad you gave it a good arguement.

ven has insane ledge play, Mystearica has crazy combos, and scattered about the Zelda base are teleport cancels, Dair trees, Phantom tech, and tricks like B-reverse Nayru edgeguards. If one were to master all of these and more, then you would likely have your versatile character you're looking for. It's just that Zelda players tend to specialize in specific areas and don't seem to go about trying to learn all the tech like other character mains do.
that's a funny way to spell my tag

A player by the name of "Katy Parry" is one I've seen pretty much master the Teleport Cancels. He's also pretty good at a few of the Phantom setups, even combo'ing a few off of Teleports.

She is among the best in terms of ledge trapping, defense, power, and is one of the hardest characters to edgeguard. She's also not horrible in almost everything else. It's just her disadvantage that's awful. But that's ok, no character is perfect. Even top tier mains will still find ways to nitpick their character. What matters is if you can work around those flaws.
Why would her disadvantage stage be considered that bad, though? She's fairly tall, yeah, but it's not like she's a massive fastfaller or anything. It's a similar scenario to when people mention her issues with landing, or getting of the ledge. I can undertsand the issues with her being at the ledge, but even then, people have come up with solutions:

https://twitter.com/KlicKlac_/status/1204280841557426176
https://twitter.com/AceattorneySsb/status/1207071749583585281

Even the current Phantom Footstool thing can be used. Even if you argue it's character-universal, that doesn't take away the fact that it might fix a key component of her disadvantage:

https://twitter.com/_JP53/status/1207465652362940416

My biggest question is, why is her landing still considered problematic? We have a Teleport and a Frame 4-13 invincibility move (Neutral B). The only problem with the latter is against disjoints, and it's not like the whole cast has them or swords.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#31
Why would her disadvantage stage be considered that bad, though?
Awful might have been a bit too strong of a word, but I mean relative to the others in what I feel is her class. Getting back to the ledge isn't that much worse than rest of the cast, provided the opponent is actually good at ledge trapping, but I don't think it's a huge coincidence that characters she struggles against like Greninja or Inkling are characters that can very quickly and aggressively push their advantage state.

With lots of practice and experience I've developed strategies and techniques, including the ones you linked, to overcome it and bring it up to par with most, but it is noticeably easier to do the same with other characters and any mistake will cost you. Compare her to a similar high tier like Mario. Mario has his projectile, cape, Bair, Up-air, and even F.L.U.D.D. in certain situations. None of those are going to leave him open on whiff either. Zelda's will leave her open if you guess the situation wrong.

In an actual match it's not a deal breaker and it's still balanced by her damage output and strong advantage state, but if we're talking solely theory and numbers, it's objectively substandard.

My biggest question is, why is her landing still considered problematic?
I don't think it's that problematic. I think it might be from people that are hesitant to go to the ledge. It's not easy for her to get back up sure, but it beats being juggled endlessly and you can make it back up relatively unscathed, with some cleverness.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#32
So Oz o: Oz o: is right about one thing. Zelda IS a punish character. All the ways she typically kills you is from setups and reading what you do to avoid them. What I do NOT agree with is dtilt confirms. I've been playing Zelda since launch and I've tested this move over and over in lab and in play online and off. It's a VERY lackluster move along with nair and fsmash (people falling out of these two is my beef with them). The lackluster part comes from two issues I have with the move: it's range is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too short and the launch angle is HORRID for confirm follow ups. If you get a sweetspot fair off of dtilt it's a VERY specific percent or the person just doesn't know the DI on it.

But this is EXACTLY the reason she NEEDS a buff. None of the top tier characters needs to have a massive in-depth 100 hour training session to learn all their invisible fringe techs and combos to be viable. Joker for instance... if you know how to play the game... pick him up and in a month or so you'll be in elite smash PURELY carried by joker and a basic knowledge of the game.
As far as playstyle goes, her kit is broad and makes it easy to specialize and difficult to master, but if you want to maximize her potential it would behoove you to learn everything she has to offer. I'm not going to fault anyone for not wanting to delve into every obscure tech and combo tree, but if we're going to talk viability and whether Zelda is good or needs buffs/nerfs, we really should have everything she is currently capable of learned.
Also, this is true. LK should be a punish option or a hard read.
And yeah, you should not be attempting to spam LK without purpose. It has specific situations where it will work really well, but the massive knockback means it needs some consideration as to when it should be used, in order to flow well with the rest of the kit.
I think Zelda needs several quality of life changes (fixes to nair and fsmash - also range and launch angel on dtilt) and then a buff to her grab game. Fix these things and you have a contender for at least high tier.

PS. Getting punished for sweetspot fair at low percents is GARBAGE and should NOT be a thing. Same thoughts on rockcrocking.
 
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Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#33
So Oz o: Oz o: is right about one thing. Zelda IS a punish character. All the ways she typically kills you is from setups and reading what you do to avoid them. What I do NOT agree with is dtilt confirms. I've been playing Zelda since launch and I've tested this move over and over in lab and in play online and off. It's a VERY lackluster move along with nair and fsmash (people falling out of these two is my beef with them). The lackluster part comes from two issues I have with the move: it's range is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too short and the launch angle is HORRID for confirm follow ups. If you get a sweetspot fair off of dtilt it's a VERY specific percent or the person just doesn't know the DI on it.
Just do it more, and you'll get used to it. It's too good to pass up on:

https://streamable.com/mkc1h

My friend who has played me for years knows exactly what I do and how to DI things and how to punish this move on shield. You can see he's tried Nair OoS and even shieldgrab. I think I dodged a few of his moves by just ducking in some of those exchanges, funny enough.

The percent isn't even that specific, it basically just combos anywhere from 40-70, obviously depending on weight and DI. But it's not like DI makes this massive difference people are making it seem it is. Trust me, I use this move a ****ton. The only characters I've had trouble landing it on because of DI were, like, Chrom and Roy. Pretty sure you can still kill them at 50 by the ledge.

But this is EXACTLY the reason she NEEDS a buff. None of the top tier characters needs to have a massive in-depth 100 hour training session to learn all their invisible fringe techs and combos to be viable. Joker for instance... if you know how to play the game... pick him up and in a month or so you'll be in elite smash PURELY carried by joker and a basic knowledge of the game.


Also, this is true. LK should be a punish option or a hard read.


I think Zelda needs several quality of life changes (fixes to nair and fsmash - also range and launch angel on dtilt) and then a buff to her grab game. Fix these things and you have a contender for at least high tier.
This is the part where I think most of the community has it wrong. They assume that all characters have to play the same way and easy to pick up to be good. Just because a person can't pick them up and win tournaments doesn't mean a character isn't good. Zelda isn't even rocketscience, if you abuse most of her options. Use Phantom and Side B for neutral, make them approach and punish accordingly. And, assuming what I said can be taken into account, some of those punishes can be ridiculously early kills.

I'd never play like this because I'm not desperate to win everything, but I encourage people to do it, if that's what they want.

PS. Getting punished for sweetspot fair at low percents is GARBAGE and should NOT be a thing. Same thoughts on rockcrocking.
then that's why you dont Kick at low percents at random **** lol


And on the whole Nair thing (and FSmash thing, apparently), I have to be the Black Sheep of the community, again. I really, really, really think people are not Nairing properly. I get it, it shouldn't have to fall out, but you also shouldn't be hitting with it on certain angles (i.e platform sharking with SH Nair) or doing retreating Nair. Just move either forwards or backwards (depending on where the person is going), and people shouldn't fall out of it.

F-Smash is weird, but it's not like they always fall out like people are complaining about it. People seem to fall out when you try to catch landings and when you catch them diagonally.
 

stixie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
70
#34
then that's why you dont Kick at low percents at random **** lol
Out of shield punish at 0%-15% and then YOU take 40 from follow up combo because they don't have enough hit stun. It's stupid.

And I don't throw out kicks randomly. I wouldn't be in elite smash if I did that. They are almost always punish options but sometimes just a hard read. It needs more hitstun (not a lot maybe 5 more frames) at really low percents.

This is the part where I think most of the community has it wrong. They assume that all characters have to play the same way and easy to pick up to be good. Just because a person can't pick them up and win tournaments doesn't mean a character isn't good. Zelda isn't even rocketscience, if you abuse most of her options. Use Phantom and Side B for neutral, make them approach and punish accordingly. And, assuming what I said can be taken into account, some of those punishes can be ridiculously early kills.
And I get this.

BUT, I DO WANT her to be a top contender. Maybe not all Zelda players have that goal but I REALLY like my character.

I get why there's reluctance to make her good though. Wifi neutral b/up b spammers give Zelda a REALLY bad name. People despise my girl for being lame and I understand that but those players will never make it past 3-4 mil gsp playing that way. I feel a lot of the complaints are low gsp people that don't know how to punish those very unsafe options.
 
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Brinzy

Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
3,672
Location
Alexandria, VA
NNID
Brinzy
#35
For one, I think being able to kill an opponent at 50-60 off of a Frame 5 move is pretty ridiculous (this being D-Tilt, of course). I repeat, I use this move a ton, and I'm very certain it does confirm if you do it right. It's just surprisingly harder than it looks, and I tend to know for sure that if I failed it, I buffered the dash wrong.
It's surprisingly harder than it looks, because it isn't as consistent as many other confirms like it in the game. Which was my entire point. The setup isn't so consistent that it'd warrant, for example, not being able to auto-cancel rising kicks. Really my point is that the moves are treated like the holy grail to the character, but the truth is that you need to use those kicks to get early kills to remain competitive. They put a lot of her punish game into these abilities that would normally be consistent damage builders or spacing tools or more for other characters.

It's about opportunity cost. Zelda gets to sometimes kill off a dtilt with her aerials at low %s. Most other characters get to create space, start combos, beat out other attacks, etc. with their aerials that also double as good kill moves. The flavor of the game is that different characters function differently. I argue that Zelda's flavor and design choice for her kicks hinder her horribly.

You should be able to do fine if you capitalize on good punishes. A lot of the time, I just need a good airdodge or spotdodge read, or a jump. It's stuff you get used to reading when you play these kind of characters. Greninja sure as hell can't kill at 20 out of a tech read. I'm pretty sure most characters bar Ganondorf nor max rage aura Lucario can't.
That's just it though. The entire point of the character is to have strong punishes for egregious mistakes your opponent makes. Most characters have a lot of speed and many more options to punish compared to Zelda, so they can create and find more opportunities to punish. The idea is that Zelda's supposed to need fewer openings to close out stocks.

It doesn't work this well in practice, however, because Zelda doesn't create nearly as much pressure in most situations compared to most characters. She's best at pressuring the ledge, but past that, you can't just sit back and just hope your opponent is just worse than you and will continuously make mistakes. You have to create scenarios to make your opponent make a mistake. No surprise there, and I'm sure you're aware of that. But she falls flat there because she has awful speed, approach, and disadvantage.

When I watch gameplay of Zeldas in tournament, nearly always I see the Zelda in control for a good while, then they lose control for a few moments, then they're behind or back to even. Or the Zelda is never in control and just loses flat out. She's a punishing character to play. That doesn't go for most characters, and unfortunately that alone makes matchups needlessly difficult.

I mean, there is... you could start by not going for rogue Kicks at low percent (or like 0), and you shouldn't be doing rising Kick on most ocassions, anyway (exception being OoS punishes, which you should have down).
If you kick some characters at 0% out of shield as a punish, you get hit. That shouldn't happen. Period. That's not going for "rogue kicks", that's using an aerial out of shield as a punish like everyone else can do.

That's the perfect example of something that should be addressed in a balance patch.

I've seen it for years. They buff your main in the new game, but people will still keep complaining unless they literally completely redesign your character in a completely different way.
The implication of this is that good Zeldas are just too stupid to figure out some hidden techs or moves that they should've been doing for years. I'm more optimistic than that. I think a lot of us aren't stupid. I think that her lacking attributes that have been consistently bad across the games are holding her back, not this inability for people to figure out a character that's really not that in-depth.

Even if that's not what you consciously believe, that's pretty much what you're implying by acting like the playerbase is somehow just not "bringing out her potential" and she's been bottom tier because nobody can figure out how her moves work.
comparing Zelda to a top tier like Greninja isn't really an apples to apples comparison
I was specifically replying to this:


stixie stixie I think it's exactly that mentality, your aversion towards normals like Dtilt is part of what's holding the Zelda meta back. I'm pretty sure most Zelda players think that way, since I hardly ever see them use these moves as much as I do. Conventional Zelda players focus too much on zoning people out and overuse specials, to the point they're heavily lacking at actually keeping off of them because they don't know to use normals well. It's not like you're even trying to incorporate Dtilt, which is part of what makes the new Zelda ridiculous (kill confirm at 40-70? ****).
Because this idea that people just aren't using her safe moves to try to get confirms is false. It's that her confirms aren't really guaranteed and are very sparse compared to many other characters. At least half the cast has better confirms than she does. Greninja was used because I played against a Greninja. No other reason.


ven has insane ledge play, Mystearica has crazy combos, and scattered about the Zelda base are teleport cancels, Dair trees, Phantom tech, and tricks like B-reverse Nayru edgeguards. If one were to master all of these and more, then you would likely have your versatile character you're looking for. It's just that Zelda players tend to specialize in specific areas and don't seem to go about trying to learn all the tech like other character mains do.
Once again, there's this idea that Zelda players are just somehow lazy or inept. Even our best ones. So are you saying that these players haven't put in the effort to learn her inside and out? She's being held back because people are stupid while everyone else is somehow putting in more hours and employ all their obscure techs all the time?

Is it really that hard to accept that the character isn't that great? She has some nice attributes and plenty of awful ones. She's an average character at best, but I'd contend she's below average. All that means is that I think she has more deficiencies than we want to let on and she could use patch buffs. Not "get gud" packaged up as "maybe everyone should learn to play like everyone."
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#36
But this is EXACTLY the reason she NEEDS a buff. None of the top tier characters needs to have a massive in-depth 100 hour training session to learn all their invisible fringe techs and combos to be viable
As a person that's friends with a former Snake main that was rather prominent, I can attest to the fact the he indeed needs to do exactly that. There's a huge gap between a bad Snake, mediocre Snake, and a good Snake, that he might as well be a different character. He might have most of the best tools in the game, but he requires an insane amount of experience and practice in order to function at a high level. There's a reason why those who made it to the top were all seasoned veterans and even then, Ally's departure has dropped his relevance some.

Peach, Inkling, and Greninja are all kind of the same way. There aren't many players of these characters at the top level. You have Samsora, Cosmos and Armada, Muteace, and some Japanese player I think. Might be forgetting some too.

The point is that a difficult learning curve doesn't make a character bad. And you don't have to learn all those things to play at a high level with her either, ven and others have proved that. You all are reading far too much into what I said here. You don't have to learn everything to play at a high level with her, but you do if you want to bring her to her full potential. I don't see how that's controversial.

Because this idea that people just aren't using her safe moves to try to get confirms is false. It's that her confirms aren't really guaranteed and are very sparse compared to many other characters. At least half the cast has better confirms than she does. Greninja was used because I played against a Greninja. No other reason.
I get that. I'm saying she doesn't need to have tools that good or consistent confirms to be good. I wasn't just meaning that Greninja specifically wasn't an apples to apples comparison, I was meaning characters like Greninja, characters in his tier, weren't apples to apples.

Fox is pretty much entirely based around difficult to execute combos, tech chases, reads, and other things that aren't guaranteed or consistent. He also has some very glaring flaws, like his weight, disadvantage, inability to pressure shields, and linear playstyle. And yet his best player can still make him work and he is still considered a good character.

And you're going to say it's because of his speed and Zelda doesn't have that. Ok, but that's just one good attribute, although a very good one. Zelda still has her good strengths like her power, edgeguarding, ledge trapping, being nigh impossible to edgeguard, defense, and a couple of the best defensive and spacing tools in the game.

The point is that despite the glaring flaws on these characters, their best players make them work. Not necessarily in auto combos or easy confirms, but through solid play. Light is an amazing player and ven is no slouch. Nairo couldn't make ZSS work and had to run to Lucina and Palutena, but Marss kept at it and eventually proved to everyone that she wasn't bottom tier like they thought she was.

And yet, there are players that couldn't make their characters work. Unless something's changed since I've been out of the loop, Captain Zack and the Bayo crew, as well as Fatality and Void, couldn't make their Smash 4 mains work. And the Bayo crew really put work into her. Those are characters you might say are bad period, when even their best couldn't do anything for them.

Once again, there's this idea that Zelda players are just somehow lazy or inept.
It's not coming from me.

So are you saying that these players haven't put in the effort to learn her inside and out?
Yes, that much is obvious with a quick glance through all of the VODs and twitters of every prominent Zelda. Every one of them as become really good in one aspect or another and has attained a good level in other areas, but no one has been able to master everything about her. That's not an indictment of anyone's skill, so much as a statement on people's affinity for specialization.

She's being held back because people are stupid while everyone else is somehow putting in more hours and employ all their obscure techs all the time?
No, I literally said no one, myself included, has learned everything there is. Unless you're talking about other character mains, which yes they all seem to put a lot of effort into learning their characters. I also didn't call anyone stupid, so don't be putting that word in my mouth.

You are reading far too much into that statement. Unless someone has happened to learn all the combo trees, all the Phantom tech, all the teleport cancels, all the wacky things you can do with Nayru, all the edgeguards, etc, you can't really say that you've fully taken advantage of a character. I can't fathom how that's controversial.

Is it really that hard to accept that the character isn't that great?
Yes. I got dumped on quite a bit on this board and elsewhere for my opinions. But that was early in the meta, when results hadn't manifested and it was just theory, so whatever. But now I do have results backing my opinions, we do have multiple high placings in super majors by many different players. Most of ven's placings have been 33rd out of what is often 3,000+ people. He almost beat Leo for crying out loud. There's been at least two top 24 placings and our best usually place in the top 3 at their locals.

She's been trending higher in pro tier lists, with M2K and Salem putting her in high tier. There aren't very many prominent players who will say she is bottom tier anymore. Not to mention she's one of the few that didn't get any changes, meaning the devs don't see major problems with her.

And yet this mentality that she isn't good still persists among the anonymous posters on dying forums. I've seen people in the CCI thread posting lists that have characters that don't even have half her results several placements above her. Everyone seems to be ignoring objective evidence for their own subjective opinions. If someone can't make a character work, that character is automatically bad, even if others can.

If several other players are getting good results with her, that means it's not the character. And if it's not the character, then naturally it would have to be the player. I'm not trying to be mean here, but if someone isn't getting results as good as the best mains of that character, then can they really complain that it's the character holding them back?

I understand that some people just aren't a good fit with some playstyles. I'm terrible with Bayonetta and post patch Olimar. And I understand and know the frustration of liking a character but not liking or being good at their playstyle. I wish I wasn't ass with ZSS or Ken as they're really cool characters with cool playstyles. But I'm just not good with execution heavy characters or combo characters in general.

But I'm also beyond tired of people just ignoring what's in front of their face and worse, attacking people that don't go along with their narrative. I've seen it here as I've seen in on twitter and I've even seen top Zelda players like ven get dumped on for insinuating that she might be ok. At the beginning of the meta, when things were largely just opinion, ok. But come on, how many other characters, that aren't established top and high tiers, have multiple top 64 placements at super majors, let alone 32? And how many characters have cracked top 24? Or can say they almost beat Leo?

I like Zelda and I like her playstyle. Her being actually good for once is just a bonus. But some people like Zelda but don't like her playstyle. That sucks but what can you do? You can only attach so many playstyles to a character and please so many people. If she got radically changed to a different character, that would suck for me, as she has my favorite playstyle. And it apparently sucks for you guys that she has her current playstyle.


But I honestly don't know what to tell you. I'm not about to just pretend all those tournaments of high level Zeldas I used to follow don't exist. I'm not about to forget that a new Zelda just recently placed 33rd at an S tier, marking the like third or fourth player to do so with solo Zelda. And I'm certainly not about to forget how bad Smash 4 Zelda was in comparison or that she didn't get half the results Ultimate Zelda has in only her first year.

I simply just can't say a spade is a shovel.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#37
Does anyone else feel like Zelda has a horrendous Dash > Shield? I've only realised this very recently, and after hundreds of time of running into things. It feels like you need a bit of distance to run up and shield, and you can't do anything until the dash animation finishes. Is it just Zelda, or is this part of the game? Just buff this and give her a real grab, and I'm good. She doesn't need anything ridiculous like being fast on the ground or being able to SH double kick. Just tweak these "small" things.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,054
Location
Germany
#38
To be honest, I wanted some buffs in the past, but these are all regarding stuff that concerns the player.
Like, complaining about the inconsistency of her fAir/bAir is a big example of this. Or maybe the only example. It's fairly consistent when you know where it is located relative to her position.

However, as mentioned in the competitive impression topic, there are three minor tweeks I want to see and that aren't all that game-changing, except for maybe the Peach MU, at least the first point.

1. Let the Phantom have a sword hitbox when the sword reaches its apex on the last two stages. it's honestly very frustrating to see this and :ultpeach:can just float right above the hitboxes. It would give Zelda a lot more space for herself (as in defensive terms when Peach's approaching) and of course more offense.
It's probably the most notable MU, but I can also see this working against other chars that are fast in the air (:ultroy::ultchrom::ultyoshi:, not so much :ultjigglypuff:because Puff has more exploitable traits)

2. Fix her multi-hits. There are only two multi-hitting moves (F-Smash and Nair, Nayr's Love is fine). Make the so-called hit detection better. It's not about the size of the hitboxes (they are huge already) but they rarely ever work. Like, an opponent gets caught in the air with fSmash and the first hit just sends them right behind her. It happens very commonly.

3. Dtilt angle/knockback. Let this move have less base knockback. It should be a combo-starter. Not even asking that a fAir connects into it at 60% but for lower percents she only really has dThrow -> nAir/bAir/fAir.
She already has a solid kill confirm with uTilt -> uAir at high percents. It kills someone like :ultwario: at 90% on Battlefield. Dunno about the DI but it seems fairly consistent in a real match.

4. Not so sure about her grabs. Pivot grab is huge and covers half of the stage (more or less). But pray when her grab misses. The endlag is just so atrocious.

Some other thing that get thrown around are movement buffs. I don't think this will do much for her. Even at Falcon's speed, I don't think she will accomplish much more. At least in terms of ground speed.
As for her air speed, it could actually make fAir/bAir safer on shield. Like, you hit the sweetspot on the shield but thanks to the higher mobility she can retreat better afterwards or cross-up shield.
But for safety on shield, maybe something could be done with her jab...?
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
410
#39
Is it just Zelda, or is this part of the game?
I'm fairly certain it's universal, which is why it's not a good idea to spam dash dancing all the time or make obvious charges towards your opponent. Zelda has a longer than average dash at 15 frames, which is what you're noticing I think. Timing is going to be different for her compared to the rest of the cast.
 

Oz o:

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
159
#40
I'm fairly certain it's universal, which is why it's not a good idea to spam dash dancing all the time or make obvious charges towards your opponent. Zelda has a longer than average dash at 15 frames, which is what you're noticing I think. Timing is going to be different for her compared to the rest of the cast.
It's not even about me dashing a lot. Yes, I'm aware that is a habit of mine, but I'm referring to simple cases where I just want to run up and shield, and end up eating something I shouldn't in exchange. This has happened a fair a mount, and it seems I just have to settle with either sititng in shield or rolling away. There's just an awkward range where your opponent can't just approach your opponent or run up and shield, but they have enough space to punish you for it.
 
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