Zelda Matchup Discussion

[Guilhe]

Main matchup thread: [LINK]

The glass cannon itself. Does her quick damage racking and powerfull KO moves makes up for he fragile recovery in this matchup?

 

[-RedX-]

Zelda likes to combo usmash into another usmash on Ike at early percentages(especially when it's stale) to rack up quick damage.
Is there any way for Ike to DI out of that pain in the *** move? >_>

 

[zeldspazz]

Yes its possible to SDI, but its really really hard lol.

Im tihnking this MU is slightly in Ike's favor.

Both have trouble recovery.
Both have many hard hitting attacks.
Both have slow ground speed.
Both are tall.

However, Ike has more range and more power, and is heavier.
I think Ikes fair can beat out Zelda's Usmash, so since Ike will probably approach more in this matchup, thats a good thing. Just dont get too predictable, because Zelda is great at punishing lag.

Watch out for Dsmash, it puts Ike in an awful recovering position, and LK since Ike is tall. She'll rarely come at you from the air if you are facing away from her though, since your bair is pretty beast against Zelda.

Thats all I can think right now, imo opinion its 55:45 Ike or 50:50 at worst.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

DI? Yes. Punish? I don't know.

I feel the match-up is 55-45 Ike's favor, I'll hopefully explain further after my mid-term.

 

[Palpi]

I have played Ryoko a few times and they were tough, but close nonetheless, he was obviously the better player. From my personal experience and from videos, it seems like they like to d-smash after a spotdodge. I have teched the d-smash a couple times, on stages like castle siege (2nd area) it is pretty easy.

A top zelda can perfectly aim her recovery to be pin-point and very hard to punish, or even hit you with it.

Zelda has a terrible aerial game, so spacing well really helps this match-up when you are both in the air. If you space poorly while she is on the ground you will either get hit with a "B" D-tilt grab d-smash.

I would definitely say is 55:45 for ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay, quick summery by me after being stupid and finding today was the review, and not the test. -_-

Din's Fire is easy to powershield. Watch Zelda's arm. When it moves, shield. Ta da. Din's Fire to our Aether? That can hurt. A lot.

Our Air Game > Zelda's, as sword > leg. Doesn't mean we shouldn't fear it though. Her Uair is a serious pain, and getting lightning kicked is this game's version of an aerial smash attack.

We have a faster ground game, but Zelda's is (sad as it sounds) safer outside of our jab. Dsmash is frame 5, Fsmash is fairly safe on block. Usmash you better learn how to SDI. Her tilts are faster then Ike's by a tad IIRC, and are quite strong. If for some odd reason you decide to use Counter against Zelda, it can KO her due to how strong her moves are, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Both recoveries are "lol gimp land", but I think Ike's has the slight edge in this match up, simply because we have two (if crappy) options, while Zelda has to use the one option she has...which means you can predict where she's going to appear most of the time easily (the ledge). But she has more range. Take your pick, both stink.

Stages, Pirate Ship as usual is good, but watch out for her Dair. It's a strong spike. Delfino can work well because I believe Zelda's Up B doesn't like the floating platform that much. And of course there is water. I think these two characters for the most part like similar stages...maybe just stick to what ever is your personal best stage in this match-up, though I would avoid Castle Siege. Zelda's smash attacks + lingering hitboxes on statues = ow.

 

[Rykoshet]

Fair her and win
Spot dodge and lose

Voila

 

[Brinzy]

Jab lots, fair lots, Usmash when she recovers.

EDIT: Goddammit.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Ryko wins at match-up threads.

Just sayin'.

 

[theeboredone]

I feel like the OOS B-Air approach can be useful in this match up. Given the fact that most Zelda's like to spam their smashes in close range, you can easily OOS b-air out of it.

 

[Palpi]

That seems like it would be useful bored

 

[Fuujin]

I have played Ryoko a few times and they were tough, but close nonetheless, he was obviously the better player. From my personal experience and from videos, it seems like they like to d-smash after a spotdodge. I have teched the d-smash a couple times, on stages like castle siege (2nd area) it is pretty easy.

A top zelda can perfectly aim her recovery to be pin-point and very hard to punish, or even hit you with it.

Zelda has a terrible aerial game, so spacing well really helps this match-up when you are both in the air. If you space poorly while she is on the ground you will either get hit with a "B" D-tilt grab d-smash.

I would definitely say is 55:45 for ike.

The Farore's wind stuff isn't true, no matter how many times you practice this move there are some angles its impossible to sweet spot.
Even if she does sweet spot the edge all any character has to do it hop on once she starts to disappear and she'll be edge hogged.
If she chooses to land above stage there's so much lag on it that its can be easily punished and with Ike he can end up killing her really early if he learns the distance she teleports.

Ike out ranges Zelda and kills her at really low percents and she doesn't have a way to get past Ike's f air.
Din's fire is almost useless *** it is with most characters except for if you time it on aether but Ike's heavy enough so that it won't really affect him.
I personally think its 60-40 Ike's favor.

 

[Guilhe]

I agree with fuujin as how Ike can severely punish Zelda’s recovery. But I also believe that if the Ike player spaces his approaches well, this matchup reaches 65-35.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, not 65-35. If Zelda plays perfectly, she can punish Ike harshly as well. Ike has more opportunities to do so, but not THAT many more.

 

[Guilhe]

Yes, Zelda does punish very harshly. But even Ike’s most common approach, Nair to jab, is relatively hard for her to punish. She cannot deal with our Nair juggle, and her options while recovering from the ledge are quite limited (as far as I’ve experienced). That’s why I believe we can consistently pressure her against the ledge and arguably (when taken her weight, and total percentage survival expectancy into consideration) punish her mistakes harder still (Guaranteeing our extra five).

 

[theeboredone]

This is not 65-35. That's just 5 less than the Ganon match up which is a cake walk for us. 60-40. Zelda has a lot of disadvantages, but she can still be troublesome.

 

[Guilhe]

Then maybe that's because Ganon matchup is worse than 70:30, which wouldn't be really suprising anyway.

 

[Brinzy]

65:35 Ike? Seriously?

What trash Zeldas have you been playing?

It's his fight but 65:35 advantage is ridiculous on a fair stage. 65:35 implies that an Ike of even skill with a Zelda should be winning more than 70% of the time. He should be winning about 60% of the time.

Yes, Zelda does punish very harshly. But even Ike’s most common approach, Nair to jab, is relatively hard for her to punish.

Fsmash, PS the nair -> whatever, Din's...

If you're approaching when you're not losing, and like this, you're doing it horribly wrong.

She cannot deal with our Nair juggle, and her options while recovering from the ledge are quite limited (as far as I’ve experienced).

Nair juggling? What is that?

Ledge thing is true but is not an Ike specific thing. He makes it easier for players because his attacks cover wide range, but not enough that he's got something special. Anyone has an advantage against a Zelda on the ledge.

That’s why I believe we can consistently pressure her against the ledge and arguably (when taken her weight, and total percentage survival expectancy into consideration) punish her mistakes harder still (Guaranteeing our extra five).

Good players don't play by the ledge anyway unless they play one of the characters in this game known to have killer ledge games. This would be like me saying, "All you have to do is get Ike to 70% and you can instantly kill him" because it's not feasibly possible to consistently trip him with dtilt and get the lightning kick off thanks to positioning and timing. It's not feasibly possible to keep a Zelda on the ledge for so long that she loses a stock when she gets there.

 

[Kaito0921]

^this is so ****ing true. a zelda with good DI comes out of Ikes jab combos rly early and punish him for that. and u shouldnt spotdodge the smashes or another attacks. with her long hitbox she will hit u. its hard for an ike to fight against a zelda, but he has a chance, just a little chance, but he has a chance.

dont understand me wrong pls, im from germany lol

 

[zeldspazz]

SoR should just take over any discussion about Zelda...Ive seen him defend her and its incredible xD

Seriously though, 65-35?................

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Guilhe, Zelda isn't as easy to beat as Squirtle, where we have that lovely Air Release CG -> Walk off Fair that kills him at like, 40% easy.

It's his fight but 65:35 advantage is ridiculous on a fair stage. 65:35 implies that an Ike of even skill with a Zelda should be winning more than 70% of the time. He should be winning about 60% of the time.

Match-up ratios don't follow themselves into winning %s like that. Which is why there are often differences in boards about ratios, even when they may actually believe the same things about the match-up.

 

[Brinzy]

I probably should've left specific numbers out and just left it as "65:35 matchup means the 35 character will hardly ever beat the advantaged, which isn't true in this matchup."

But yeah, fair is what you should be using, and if you're approaching most of the time something's wrong.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But yeah, fair is what you should be using, and if you're approaching most of the time something's wrong.

Not necessarily. There are different playing styles obviously. Some could do fine approaching and baiting. They would have to be extremely smart about it, but it's do able. For example approaching with an empty SH a few times to see what the foe's usual reaction is, etc.

And in some match-ups, Nair is a lot better then Fair. I'd think they are both usable in this match-up.

 

[Guilhe]

Fsmash, PS the nair -> whatever, Din's...

If you're approaching when you're not losing, and like this, you're doing it horribly wrong.

I don’t believe that Zelda’s Fsmash can be used to punish Ike‘s Nair unless it was predicted and started in advance. For any other response Zelda would have to Powershield Nair. Din’s fire?

Nair juggling? What is that?

It is to use Nair in a low diagonal angle against an opponent above. Zelda can’t hit Ike out of that, so her only option would be to avoid it. If she tries to airdodge and land, Ike would quickly fastfall and punish her with jabs, grab or even Utilt before she can respond. That’s why I think Ike can push her to the edges of the stage with his juggle.

Good players don't play by the ledge anyway unless they play one of the characters in this game known to have killer ledge games. This would be like me saying, "All you have to do is get Ike to 70% and you can instantly kill him" because it's not feasibly possible to consistently trip him with dtilt and get the lightning kick off thanks to positioning and timing. It's not feasibly possible to keep a Zelda on the ledge for so long that she loses a stock when she gets there.

Sorry, I’ve meant to say “push her to the edge of the stage”, that is, while she’s still over the stage. I’ve meant that Ike can pressure her into this disadvantageous position with consistency if the Zelda player isn’t careful / take some Fairs.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone, it’s just that matchup rations always seems to converge to 50:50, that when it even gets near to 70:30 people tend to think the matchup is horrible. This is just my perspective on matchup ratios.

EDIT: Ooook, back to the discution: We need those writeups and stage counterpick and banning articles. I’ll start with the stages because I’m too lazy for the write-up. I would recommend Pirate Ship, Rainbow Cruise, PS1 for counterpick and for banning… I don’t know. Jungle Japes?

 

[Ussi]

If the person is using Zelda on you... he either:

a. Does not use Sheik
b. Is clearly better than you and is just getting as much fun out of it
c. Is not playing to win

Zelda just has to down B and volia! All her problems are gone vs Ike!


/fail sarcasm


fair wins, 60 - 40

Probably Ike's 3rd easiest MU

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

65:35 Ike? Seriously?

What trash Zeldas have you been playing?

It's his fight but 65:35 advantage is ridiculous on a fair stage. 65:35 implies that an Ike of even skill with a Zelda should be winning more than 70% of the time. He should be winning about 60% of the time.

really so a 100:0 match up implies that one character should be winning over 105% of the time?

What kind of math are you using because i'm pretty curious if there is a way to make it more than 70% lol

 

[Palpi]

Don't jab cancel in this match-up much. A zelda who can SDI in this MU will get out of your jabs fast, if you cancel them.

 

[Brinzy]

really so a 100:0 match up implies that one character should be winning over 105% of the time?

What kind of math are you using because i'm pretty curious if there is a way to make it more than 70% lol

It's not math. Don't look at it as math. It's common sense. I'm not an Ike player so I'll reference my own character.

Snake has a 70:30 advantage on Zelda.

In every single fight played, he has a 70:30 advantage. He beats her in pretty much every category and is almost always in a position to have a relatively safe or better response to Zelda than she can respond to him. He outranges, outspeeds, outcontrols, outpowers, and outlives Zelda.

When two players of equal skill come together, the Snake will be winning nearly all the time, moreso than "70%" as people take these advantages. If you have a kitchen knife and someone has a katana, assuming you both are skilled in your weapon specializations, the guy with the katana is going to win nearly all the time because his tools are that much better than yours.

100-0s technically don't exist because there's "always a chance" but for all intents and purposes, Ganon will pretty much never beat ICs if the players are on the same level of skill on a neutral stage. I'm not taking an advantage and adding a special number to it. The fact of the matter is that advantages will be in every single matchup between the same two characters and when they are even remotely large (starting at about 65:35 and worse), the underdog can pretty much call it game for having to win best two out of three against an equally skilled opponent.

In the case of this matchup, no, Zelda does not lose even close to all of her games to Ike. She loses enough to lose a set often but not enough that it's an automatic win for Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think we consider anything worse then 3-7 around here to be "unwinnable" or the point where the underdog can call it a game. Which may be part of the confusion. lol

Or at least I do. ;_;

 

[Palpi]

All of niddo's MU's are 0-110.

 

[Guilhe]

I consider a matchup "unwinnable" when its ratio is under 10:90. I would put Olimar as 80:20 against Ike for exemple. And this matchup is definitely winnable if the Ike player manages to put Olimar in jab range (good luck with that though).

Sigh… The Mike made that thread in which he questioned the existence of 0:100 matchups at tactical and mods got pissed. I guess that we should discuss how to handle matchup ratios here at the War Room.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

All of niddo's MU's are 0-110.

*stabs you*

Besides, I can beat one guy in SA most of the time....mainly because his mind shuts down when facing Ike apparently...

 

[MrEh]

Just Jab a lot when she lags. Which is like, all the time. Profit!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It's not math. Don't look at it as math. It's common sense. I'm not an Ike player so I'll reference my own character.

Snake has a 70:30 advantage on Zelda.

In every single fight played, he has a 70:30 advantage. He beats her in pretty much every category and is almost always in a position to have a relatively safe or better response to Zelda than she can respond to him. He outranges, outspeeds, outcontrols, outpowers, and outlives Zelda.

When two players of equal skill come together, the Snake will be winning nearly all the time, moreso than "70%" as people take these advantages. If you have a kitchen knife and someone has a katana, assuming you both are skilled in your weapon specializations, the guy with the katana is going to win nearly all the time because his tools are that much better than yours.

100-0s technically don't exist because there's "always a chance" but for all intents and purposes, Ganon will pretty much never beat ICs if the players are on the same level of skill on a neutral stage. I'm not taking an advantage and adding a special number to it. The fact of the matter is that advantages will be in every single matchup between the same two characters and when they are even remotely large (starting at about 65:35 and worse), the underdog can pretty much call it game for having to win best two out of three against an equally skilled opponent.

In the case of this matchup, no, Zelda does not lose even close to all of her games to Ike. She loses enough to lose a set often but not enough that it's an automatic win for Ike.

ehh I suppose that its just different ways of looking at it the. I've always liked to think of match up numbers as being the actual percents them selfs

65:35 to me is simply saying that Ike should win around 65% of the time which isn't to bad IMO

 

[M4ge]

I've actually got quite a bit of experience in this matchup. Dunno if the discussions over or not but...

You can mess with Zelda's recovery pretty bad. If she uses Up B offstage, you can punish her almost every time. Counter and Usmash punish her upb up a lot. If they recover low you have a pretty good chance of landing a dair since her upb can still be hit. Her juggle game is pretty annoying. Most Zeldas go for usmashes at low %s, but they look to camp you more. Be careful with Fairs. A lot of Zeldas I play try to bait it and punish. You can outspace her by a lot too.

60:40 Ike imo.

 

[King of Sack]

Excuse me if this is known but is it supposed to be sooooo easy to DI out of Zelda's Forward Smash? All I had to do was hit the control stick once towards zelda and I was out...

 

[mountain_tiger]

Excuse me if this is known but is it supposed to be sooooo easy to DI out of Zelda's Forward Smash? All I had to do was hit the control stick once towards zelda and I was out...

Indeed. It's one of the easiest moves in the game to SDI out of.

However, it still has good range and low cooldown, so it's generally used as a defensive move, since if they space it right it's basically unpunishable.


I don't know why people are saying it's almost unwinnable for Zelda. It's in Ike's favour, definitely, but Zelda can still put up a fight herself. 60:40 for Ike sounds about right to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nobody is saying it's almost unwinnable for Zelda.

We had a conflict in what we consider the ratios to mean (Guilhe's 2-8 is apparently my 3-7, etc), but I believe everyone has been essentially saying the same thing.

 

[Nysyarc]

Part of the reason I don't like MU discussions is because IMO way too much consideration is put into the ratios. Like it even got to the point here where we had conflicting theories on what the ratios even mean. The other reason I don't like MU discussions is because they generally just take on a hostile sort of atmosphere.

I think MU discussions should just go over the gameplay strategies and counter-strategies that each character in question should be aware of, and that should be the end of it. MU ratios are just dumb IMO and don't really help at all. I don't go into a match against Zelda thinking "Oh, I have a 60% chance to win this" or "Hey, my character has the ratio advantage so I should win"... that's just dumb. I don't even consider the ratios, I consider the characters and what I actually have to do in the match in order to win.

But, just my opinion.

 

[benaji261!]

I hate Zelda's usmash. I can get around Din's fire but her usmash brings my head to a boil. <_<;;;;

55-45 Ike's favor sounds about right though.