Zelda in SSB4 General (Q&A)

Meru.

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#2
A good character :( She needs more useful magic.

I recently used my crystal ball though and fortunately, it told me that Zelda would be at higher end of either high or mid tier, and this time would actually stay around that position.


:052:
 

mountain_tiger

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#3
Now, I lost interest in the Smash Bros. series a while ago, but if I were to get back into it, I reckon the following changes would be nice:

- Make it so that Din's Fire never clashes with other aerials - make it hit through everything. Also, it shouldn't make Zelda go into helpless when used in mid-air.
- Fewer vulnerable frames on up+B and a longer second jump.
- FTilt should be just a couple of frames faster
- Get rid of Fair and make it an entirely new attack. Seriously, she's already got Bair - she doesn't need two of the same move! I was thinking maybe something along the lines of Peach's Fair, except with sparkles. That would make approaching a lot easier.
 

Mocha

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#4
- Get rid of Fair and make it an entirely new attack. Seriously, she's already got Bair - she doesn't need two of the same move! I was thinking maybe something along the lines of Peach's Fair, except with sparkles. That would make approaching a lot easier.
That would be amazing. Nuff said.

Hmm, I agree with f-tilt being a bit faster too, and improving Din's. For those of us that don't use Sheik, having an alternate down b would be nice, and keeping Sheik as a separate character. However I know some of like the Zelda/Sheik combo. Maybe there could be an option to choose whether you want to use both, with Zelda's down b as Sheik - or have the option to choose them as separate characters with their own unique down b.
 

KuroganeHammer

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#5
There's one dilemma with all this...

How will Skyward Sword Zelda turn into Sheik?

It's unlikely that TP Zelda will get used again imo, UNLESS they make another Princess Zelda character or make them standalone characters which cannot transform.

But improvements I would like to see on the current Zelda:

- Din's Fire being a passively controlled projectile (Like Pit's arrows)
- Jab being faster
- Grab having more range and being slightly faster (Like Dedede's)
- F-smash not being able to be DI'd out of.
- D-smash being stronger
- U-smash doing more damage
- Sourspot bair like Melee, Sweetspot like Brawl
- Faster dash speed (Peach wears high heels and runs faster... Not only that, but Zelda can turn into one of the fastest runners in Brawl... WTF?!)
- Heavier (Like Dedede :troll:)
- Put hitboxes on her feet during nair
- More invincibility on Nayru's
- Make dair like Ganon's, but make the sweetspot a true spike
- Make up air less telegraphed
- Make Farore's faster to start up and give the ending hitbox a spike and make it able to be autocancelled
- Make ftilt safe on shield
- Make utilt stronger


inb4Sakuraimakeshertheworstinthegame
 

Alacion

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#6
-Jab needs to be stronger
-F-smash and U-smash can't be DI'd out of
-Grab needs to be quicker
-Up throw or maybe Back throw needs to be like Ness' back throw
-Nair hitboxes around Zelda's whole body
-Changing F-air to be like Peach's is a great idea!
-Give Uair a larger hitbox
-Dair needs a a better sourspot, I'm okay with her sweetspot though :)
-Keep Nayru's Love Jump/Drop/Momentum Cancel and less lag at the end
-And on this tangent, Zelda needs to go on an eating binge. Not like this slow girl can get any slower anyway.
-Make Din's Fire faster or maybe... auto-homing? Also, get rid of that helpless crap when using Din's in the air. No clashing either.
-Farore's Wind... how to change this...? Somehow needs less predictability and landing lag.
-Transform. Needs to be faster. How can Melee's transform be so much faster than Brawl's?

That's it for my lolworthy ideas.

Edit: I say keep transform. At the very least, you can mix things up a little or if you're in the mood for a change. That's what I do anyway.

Watch Sakurai scrap Zelda altogether because she's too difficult to make decent.
 

mountain_tiger

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#7
-F-smash and U-smash can't be DI'd out of
We want Zelda to be viable, not broken. :bee: Maybe for USmash make it so that small characters can't DI downwards and punish you, but otherwise, I think those moves are fine as they are.


-Up throw or maybe Back throw needs to be like Ness' back throw
That would be pretty cool tbh.


-Changing F-air to be like Peach's is a great idea!
Honestly, if that happened, along with Din's getting transcendental priority, I think that would be enough to stop Zelda sucking. At the very least she wouldn't be second worst in the game.


-And on this tangent, Zelda needs to go on an eating binge. Not like this slow girl can get any slower anyway.
I wouldn't count on her weight going up much. I mean, why would it?


-Transform. Needs to be faster. How can Melee's transform be so much faster than Brawl's?
TBF, that wasn't intentional. It was a consequence of Brawl's data taking up so much storage space.


Watch Sakurai scrap Zelda altogether because she's too difficult to make decent.
She really isn't though. All she really needs is either a viable approach (Peach-style Fair could do that!) or a viable way to force approaches (reformed Din's could do this for some characters).
 

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#11
Increased trancendence for Usmash and Fsmash.

No dancing recovery and make it "like" Pikachu's QA in the way that it can be used to change direction not just a straight line while invisible.

Longer invinsiblilty for Nayru's and less ending lag. Keep momentum the same.

New Fair that can be used as an approach.

Din's goes through everything and can cast multiple fireballs, or the main fireball can split into four smaller balls of fire in a quarter circle (like a shield), and explode one after another or at the same time.

All i can think of now...
 

KuroganeHammer

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#12
Dudes and dudettes, Zelda is friggen terrible. Second last on the tier list, she needs a lot to become even viable, let alone good.

Making u-smash and f-smash un-di-able(?) wouldn't make her broken. lulz

And she needs much more efficient tools to approach than say "lets just give her Peach's fair".
 

Supreme Dirt

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#14
Increased trancendence for Usmash and Fsmash.
Waaaaaaaaaaait... transcendence doesn't work like that. It's a bit which is either set or it isn't. It either ignores all other hitboxes or doesn't. You can't have more.

I think you mean more disjointedness.

I wouldn't mind her arms being invincible during the moves.
 

Meru.

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#16
Dudes and dudettes, Zelda is friggen terrible. Second last on the tier list, she needs a lot to become even viable, let alone good.

Making u-smash and f-smash un-di-able(?) wouldn't make her broken. lulz

And she needs much more efficient tools to approach than say "lets just give her Peach's fair".
Definitely this, Zelda needs a lot of work.
  • I'd like to see her Neutral B and Side B completely replaced tbh. If they would stay the same, then Side B should be have much less lag and start-up, and the hitbox should stay longer. It should also be transcendent.

  • Neutral should also hit at frame 5, have more hitboxes to gain more vertical range, also a bit more horizontal range have a long duration but not much lag, reflect during lag (if it doesn't already... never use this move) and invinciblity from frame 1-4.

  • Up B should also get some good tweaks. The start-up but especially the ending/landing lag should be greatly decreased. When put into a state of freefall, she should be able to move immediately. Hitbox 1 should be able to combo into hitbox 2, which should have the knockback to combo into moves such as Usmash or Uair of Fair/Bair.

  • Fsmash and Usmash shouldn't be DI'd out. Both should also do some nice shield damage. Also, during the start-up frames of Fsmash, Zelda should lean back a lot.

  • Dsmash needs to be slightly stronger and hit slightly higher.

  • Nair needs a lot more range. There should be hitboxes covering her whole body and it just needs way more range. Landing lag should be decreased. Knockback should be decreased. It would also be nice if were able to pull in opponents.

  • Fair and Bair need to get their Melee hitboxes as well. Knockback should be between Melee and Brawl. The should be able to autocancel with little lag but not too little.

  • Uair needs a larger hitbox and WAY less lag.

  • Dair's start-up should decrease to frame 12 and the hitboxes have to be greatly enlarged. It should also be able to launch grounded opponents.

  • Dash attack should have waaaay less lag and more range, making it an occasionally safe approach when well-spaced.

  • Ftilt should be a fast tilt that can combo. Ending lag should be slightly decreased, shield stun should be increased.

  • Utilt should be replaced with another move.

  • Dtilt should have slightly more range and a higher chance of tripping.

  • Jab needs to be a safer, it should have a much bigger hitbox and a 6 frame start-up.

  • Grab should just be frame 6.

  • Fthrow and Bthrow should kill and throw at a angle of 45 degrees and 25 degrees respectively.

  • Melee's Uthrow returns. Dthrow has more hitstun but sends a bit more horizontal.

Well that's it. She may now be a decent character :).


:053:
 

MechaWave

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#17
Definitely this, Zelda needs a lot of work.
Stuff.

Agree with many. Though Nayru's Love and Din's Fire is fine.

  • Jab: A bigger hitbox and more safe.
  • Ftilt: Faster.
  • Utilt: No changes, it's pretty good.
  • Dtilt: No changes, I like how it locks onto characters.
  • Dash attack: More knockback.
  • Usmash: More % damage and pressure shields more.
  • Fsmash: More damage and unDIable; pressure shields more. No this doesn't make her broken.
  • Dsmash: Slightly stronger.
  • Nair: The hitboxes should cover her whole body, should be bigger, more damage, set knockback on all hits except the last one which has decent knockback.
  • Fair: Should be changed completely. She doesn't need two exact moves. I like the idea of having a similar attack like Peach's fair. This can be a way to approach.
  • Bair: It's fine, but a sourspot like Melee's and sweetspot like Brawl's is the best.
  • Uair: Not as laggy.
  • Dair: Should behave like a slightly weaker version of Ganondorf's dair that actually meteors on the ground.
  • Nayru's Love: Allow her to move around while in the move's duration. Less lag and more invincibility frames.
  • Din's Fire: This can go either two ways. Buff it up more, transcedent priority and not as easy to dodge. Otherwise I'd love it to behave like in P:M. It should also not make you helpless (which is really stupid).
  • Farore's Wind: More invincibility frames, longer range and have the kill power of Sheik's Vanish. This way if you're gimped you might actually KO the other player when recovering.
  • Transform: Try to make it fast, it was only slow in Brawl because of hardware limitations. The invincibility should last until the character fully appears.
  • Grab range: Way longer.
  • Light Arrow: While FS may not be used in competitive play, this is for the casuals. Light Arrow should be way stronger.

Her attributes, however, should stay the same imo. She can be a very strong character but her attributes might get in the way (think G&W). But the most important thing she needs is AN APPROACH.
 
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#18
Okay let's look at Zelda piece by piece and see what she needs:
FIRST off, nintendo needs to decide: do they want Zelda to require Sheik and Sheik to require zelda, because, if so, sheik needs less killing power and more safety on her moveset and then Zelda needs to be essentially uncampable with a kickin defensive game. Given that that's ROUGHLY the direction they tried to go, let's see how to improve her:

  • Jab
    Okay. The idea of a jab is to be a wicked quick defensive maneuver. It should counter gap closers and be tremendously fast. Zelda's is essentially none of these things. It has pretty bad range and it can't be spammed by holding down the A button like so many other Jabs. And it's a shame too, with her trancendent priority she could have a really effective jab if it had better range.... Okay, so this move is, generally, at least, fine . . . but it needs to be able to be spammed by holding the A button like most effective jabs are and/or it needs slightly better range so that it can be used to deny approaches.
  • ↔ tilt
    This move has very few uses, unfortunately. I mean it doesn't have the safety, the damage, the knockback or the speed of Fsmash. It's practically inferior in every way (though I think Up tilted Usmash might have a slightly HIGHER hitbox at least.) To make this move better, it needs to be faster and possibly lead to setups better.
  • ↑ tilt
    Nothing really terribly wrong with this move except that Usmash is so much better. The move is SLOW, which is also a problem. This move advertizes itself as being a protective sweep above Zelda's head, but the hitbox just isn't disjointed enough to accomplish that. Disjointing it a bit more or giving Zelda invincibility or super armour frames on her upper body for the move would be perfect.
  • ↓ tilt
    This move is great as is. no changes
  • ↔ Smash
    NO LONGER ABLE TO BE DId OUT OF!
  • ↑ Smash
    NO LONGER ABLE TO BE DId OUT OF!
  • ↓ Smash
    great, no changes at all.
  • Nair
    better range since it's her ONLY aerial thatdoesn't need to be sweetspotted to do anything.
  • ↔ Air
    Easier to sweetspot even if its power is toned down a bit to compensate for being easier to hit with. I mean, honestly the attack can't be RELIABLY used against small targets and it takes up TWO moveslots.
  • ↑ Air
    A bigger hitbox or a faster release or even a longer lingering to the hitbox would be spectacular, but I don't know if anything is necessary. the attack is mainly fine, just requires some prediction.
  • ↓ Air
    Easier to sweetspot and the ability to sweetspot grounded targets.
  • Grabs & Throws
    Her throws are all fine but her grab is terrible. it needs to be fast enough to compete with other grabs.
  • Farore's Wind
    This move needs TONNES of work. It's way too easy to edgehog or just interfere with in general. The reapearance damage needs to last long enough and be big enough that it's not just so easy to just jump on the edge and totally screw zelda since her recovery is so incredibly predictable . . . and it'd help if she didn't free fall for so long before she can control herself at all :/
  • Nayru's Love
    Nice as a GTFO move, but terrible as a reflector. It could REALLY use some faster startup/cooldown if it's going to protect her from campers.... oh, and if she could slide forward or backwards while using it that would make it harder to abuse her for trying to use it against projectiles since you couldn't space yourself to instantly punish her.
  • Din's Fire
    Detonate more immediately and not send Zelda into a free fall . . . that is all

 

KuroganeHammer

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#19
Up air is a good high risk, high reward move.

It's absolutely terrifying when you're on the receiving end of it.

Nayru's should have a "charger" like ROB's B and Wario's Down B where it needs to charge for a while, but when it's used, it works like the Nayru's in OoT (Without invincibility ofc. That'd be ridiculously broken. lul) except works like a franklin badge.
 
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#20
Up air is a good high risk, high reward move.

It's absolutely terrifying when you're on the receiving end of it.

Nayru's should have a "charger" like ROB's B and Wario's Down B where it needs to charge for a while, but when it's used, it works like the Nayru's in OoT (Without invincibility ofc. That'd be ridiculously broken. lul) except works like a franklin badge.
that WOULD be a cool change, though I WOULD miss nayru's invincibility frames and the ability to throw enemies standing right behind you to a position directly in front of you.
 

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#21
Up air is a good high risk, high reward move.

It's absolutely terrifying when you're on the receiving end of it.

Nayru's should have a "charger" like ROB's B and Wario's Down B where it needs to charge for a while, but when it's used, it works like the Nayru's in OoT (Without invincibility ofc. That'd be ridiculously broken. lul) except works like a franklin badge.
What about momentum cancelling and wavebouncing?
 
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#22
Jab: hitbox out faster, on frame 6 or 5 would be ok
Ftilt: less lag and maybe a bit faster
Dtilt: this one is ok for me, but if caused tripping comes back higher tripping rate like DK's
Utilt: maybe to make it faster(like Melee) and have Snakes Utilt power or at least not that DIable
Fsmash: NOT being able to SDI out of it
Dsmash: a bit stronger
Usmash: see Fsmash
Grab: FASTER!!!!!!!!!! Range is ok
Fthrow: a CG may be kind of ridiculous but I wouldn't hate it either lol I think it's ok like it is
Bthrow: kill power and faster like ROB's F&Bthrow to have les time to DI
Dthrow: this one needs more hitstun or launch the opponent closer for follow-ups
Uthrow: maybe kill power too but just that
Nair: bigger hitboxes
Fair & Bair: I like the kicks but I don't like is hitlag and how if we hit a shield Zelda stays static too much time that's not ok with me... also the sourspots should at least have some knock back...
Dair: same as Fair and Bair... but with the addition that the damn sweetspot hitbox is bigger, why? it doesn't even cover Zelda's whole foot.
Uair: less lag
Nayru's Love: Balanced Brawl's Nayru's and maybe more shield damage (?)
Farore´s Wind: for the first part either making it faster(Mewtwo), or keeping it the same but with super armor... and the second part with less or no lag
Din's Fire: PM's speed, and or Brawl minus feature of shooting two, less lag after detonating and not being clashable, something like Falco's lasers(trascendant priority is it?) but only when detonated... and oof course NOT MAKING Zelda HELPLESS!!!!!

a better airdodge and running speed, have like a normal weight, and look good... I really love TP's Zelda design, and Skyward's well... is not much of my liking but I know she'll look good!!!
 

Fluttershy

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#23
time to finish
Jab: More knockback
Ftilt: Faster
Utilt: Same
Dtilt: Faster
Dsmash: closer to a 0 degree angle
Fair: a Multi hit aerial like Nair except hitbox is closer to the ground (something like ness' but in a southeast direction from Zelda)
Uair: same
Dair: Increased Sweetspot hitbox
Nair: better range
Standing Grab: faster
 

BlueXenon

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#24
This is how I want Zelda to change:
1. Bair and and Fair have much larger sweetspots but have a little less knockback
2. Faster grabs
3. Din's fire explodes after .5 seconds and the hitbox stays out twice as long, this way it can be used to pressure opponents.
4. If she meteor smashes someone who is on the ground, they will be stunned for .6 seconds.
5. Dtilt and Dsmash a little faster.
6. The last change I want is for her to have a good dacus that gives her at least a decent approach option.
 
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#25
while there's lots of other good changes already listed here.... i'd also like Zelda to have a better running animation. she runs so dumb and it looks like she's running in place but on a magic treadmill that propels her forwards >.<
 
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#26
Question to all of you guys:

Would it be acceptable to keep Zelda's approach game absolutely terrible so long as she could camp and counter-camp and SHIEK could approach in matchups where such a thing would be necessary?
 

Supreme Dirt

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#29
I really really really want SheikZelda use to be more encouraged in the next Smash.

I mean they tried really hard to do it with Brawl but the loading times just kills it.
 
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#30
you know how if you get hit while using Dins the fireball keeps going until its max distance/wall and explodes. what if in the next game in addition to not going into freefall after using Dins Zelda can cancel her casting animation by blocking? she could then move around and do w/e or cast another Dins(only 2 out at a time)

is this too broken of an idea? :awesome:

i think it would at least help Zelda when it came to edgeguarding, she could fireball and chase after it. in a ranged situation where shes not outcamped so hard she could aim the fireball at the ground and then follow after to help close in.
 
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#31
given the hitbox, damage and knockback on a max ranged Din's, it would certainly provide some incentive against trying to camp against Zelda... though Zelda's terrible mobility kinda kills the potential of “running to follow Din's” . . . if only Farore's wind had the speed of Melee Mewtwo's teleport.
 

MechaWave

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#32
I applied some of these changes in this thread to Zelda.

[collapse="Changes Applied"]- Jab has more IASA
- Ftilt more IASA, almost completely lagless
- Utilt more IASA but hardly noticeable
- Fsmash's SDI ability is now 0.1x, just like Usmash's
- Dsmash has some extra knockback, not noticeable
- Nair's hitboxes cover 90% of Zelda's whole magical being; can now be SDI'd out of
- Fair and Bair's sourspots do 7% now
- Uair is somewhat faster
- Dair's sourspot actually causes some knockback
- Fthrow KOs
- Nayru's Love has more invincibility frames, comes out somewhat faster and has useful hitboxes
- Din's Fire no longer makes Zelda go into a helpless state; on the ground she is invincible for a very short period of time while starting up a fireball and detonating it; she can grab the ledge with it now while airborne
- Farore's Wind travels an identical length of Melee's; causes some KB on startup but has KO potential with the fiery hit (should prevent edge guards)[/collapse]

Well, she's almost broken because of the one change: full-body hitboxes on Nair. It's like MK's Tornado but less hits. However, I had to remove the 0x SDI ability of the move else it would be easily the most broken move ever, but the CPUs can't DI. If it had 0.7x SDI ability a human player could easily get out of it.

Her attributes are still the same, though. She plays somewhat linear. Overall she plays much better
 
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#34
Her down-b should make her shadow become a sheik like character, and whenever Zelda does a move, the shadow sheik does her version of the move, for instance, if Zelda used din's sheik would chain.

But with skyward sword it looks very unlikely that the two characters will be combined again.
ofc they did recently release OoT 3Ds.
 

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#36
I'm surprised I've yet to see the Project M version of Din's Fire being suggested.
 

Ice Prince

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#37
I mean they tried really hard to do it with Brawl but the loading times just kills it.
This--and then by the time you've finally transformed, you're all but serving up a free smash out on a platter more times than not.

Animation desperately needs to be much faster. No more than 1.5 seconds in my opinion, since Zelda/Sheik switch ups seem to be the main focus for Brawl as far as her playstyle looked. Sheik was awesome in Melee--they need to bring back that beast, and tweak Zelda with some favorable assets. I wouldn't even mind if her approach game was still lacking, provided she could make up for it with effective camp tools. Improve her movement as well--speed her up. Not crazy speed obviously, but at least tweak her for floating recovery and running speed.

I like alot of the ideas in this thread. I agree with the majority--she just needs to be hardcore tweaked.
 

Fernosaur

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#38
I think a Fair like Ness's would be the best approach change! Tbh Ness would be so ****ed without his fair, hahaha. And it also has sparkles, so it's not that far off. It would have an awkward animation, but it could be a spin move like Link's fair, only with auto-combo sparkles to her front and little knockback. It would be an amazing short-hop move :D

I like the idea of Din's being autocanceled so she can chase after it, if not by running, maybe then by teleporting! Farore's Wind should start up faster (you can make a fast attack and have a pretty animation Sakurai, for ****'s sake!), and maybe when she reappears she could have invincibility frames, like Charizard's or Ike's Up-B, and I agree with dair being able to sweetspot on the ground! It's not like it's easy to hit with like Ganon's dair (although that's like his only good move haha :C). I think by how horribly light she is, she could use muchhh more killing power, like G&W. They're almost the same weight and he's much more powerful than she is :(, and I mean, Zelda has superpowerful attacks, but the fact that they are all so awkward and precise is just bull.

I really like how her up and front tilts look. Ftilt should be much faster and probz have lots of IASA frames and less knockback, and utilt should be a little more disjointed. Most utilts protect super nicely from attacks from above, and hers is just slow and dumb.
 

Ice Prince

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#39
^ and </> tilts are quite powerful, but they could use a boost certainly. Perhaps a wider hit box on ^, and faster start up on </>. More damage potential is nice. I do think ^ tilt is powerful enough, but a wider hitbox would serve nicely. </> works fine, but make it more competitive in comparison to other characters.

On her transformation, I cannot stress enough that they still should allow invincibility until you're moving. Seriously, I get hacked soooo many times off of transformation because it takes forever and a day and I have no time to react to the situation. I'd say 90% of the time, I get knocked out of my transformation sequence right after it occurs. Invincible time until reaction availability and faster transform time is a MUST.
 
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