Zelda > Ike ?!

[sl6ck]

Ike cannot recover past Zelda's phantom break. Forcing him to recover high, which is never a good idea. #nerfZelda .


Opinions? Is it a doable matchup with Ike not being able to recover?


If you'd like to play a set, or 5 comment your nnid below.

 

[Zylach]

Ike cannot recover past Zelda's phantom break. Forcing him to recover high, which is never a good idea. #nerfZelda .


Opinions? Is it a doable matchup with Ike not being able to recover?


If you'd like to play a set, or 5 comment your nnid below.

It is true that Phantom presents a fairly good counter to Ike's recovery but Ike does have the option to recover high through quick draw which can be autocancelled (and just has fairly little lag on landing when compared to Zelda's inability to cover the distance necessary to punish it). The MU is still slightly in Ike's favor due to the fact that getting him offstage as Zelda is more difficult than the inverse since Ike outranges Zelda so his neutral is better than hers. A lazy Ike player can be gimped really easily as Zelda though. Ike players have to respect Zelda players.

 

[yo-yo_guy]

While Ike can be gimped pretty easily using this he still has quick draw to help, this also happens to Little Mac and most noticeably Cloud, since Cloud doesn't have a horizontal recovery option, like Little Mac and Ike do. You do have to remember that Aether has really good vertical reach so it is possible that he could just wait out the Phantom and still recover just fine. I have to do this with characters with counters all the time.

Ike still has the advantage but this is a good trick Zelda players can use in this MU.

 

[NintendoKnight]

As an Ike main, Zelda isn't really a huge threat. In the neutral, Ike handles himself just fine. He outranges her severely, and let's not talk about the damage difference. Also, he's heavy and hard to kill. He practically has to be gimped. Otherwise, he will make it back to the stage one way or another.

Also, Zelda has REALLY hard time getting in on Ike. Less range and poor mobility make her easy to see coming and easy to keep away, all her attacks will get shield grabbed, her only attack that covers rolls is dsmash, and any attempt at teleporting gets countered. LITERALLY. Also, he has Eruption, which beats even SHEIK'S recovery.

 

[Zylach]

As an Ike main, Zelda isn't really a huge threat. In the neutral, Ike handles himself just fine. He outranges her severely, and let's not talk about the damage difference. Also, he's heavy and hard to kill. He practically has to be gimped. Otherwise, he will make it back to the stage one way or another.

Also, Zelda has REALLY hard time getting in on Ike. Less range and poor mobility make her easy to see coming and easy to keep away, all her attacks will get shield grabbed, her only attack that covers rolls is dsmash, and any attempt at teleporting gets countered. LITERALLY. Also, he has Eruption, which beats even SHEIK'S recovery.

Sorry if I sound rude but you must not play Zeldas very often. The first thing I'd like to point out is that Zelda shouldn't be trying to get in on Ike. He has no projectile and no reflector meaning she ought to be spacing phantoms against him to get him to approach her. Zelda will prioritize gimps on Ike because his recovery isn't very good. Ike actually doesn't outrange her that badly. It's not like Ike vs Mario. Zelda's ftilt and fsmash compete with Marth's sword. Ike has the longer disjoints and does outrange her but Zelda steps into her animations meaning she isn't heavily outranged. I'd also like to point out that she's got safe options against shield. Jab is something like +2 on shield, a properly spaced fsmash can't be shield grabbed, and retreating Lkicks are even difficult to punish.

She has a lot of roll counters. Dsmash, Nayru's Love, FW are the easiest punishes since they cover both sides of her. If the player is quick enough to react to a roll, bair OoS is frame 6. Zelda shouldn't be trying to snipe with FW either. It's a risky move that's too slow to merit the attempt. FW snipes by Zelda should be a rare thing by now. The main use of FW is ledge cancelling and elevator kills, and, yes, Ike will die at stupid low percents if Zelda has rage. I've killed an Ike at 30% before because of 120% of rage plus he was charging a smash attack. If you're charging eruption at the ledge hoping to hit Zelda, she can opt to pass by the ledge entirely and just hit you instead. There's a small window of time to hit her before she reappears on your face though so the better option would be to stall her recover with Nayru's Love until she's sure she can recover safely.

That MU is in Ike's favor but by no means is it terrible for her.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Sorry if I sound rude but you must not play Zeldas very often. The first thing I'd like to point out is that Zelda shouldn't be trying to get in on Ike. He has no projectile and no reflector meaning she ought to be spacing phantoms against him to get him to approach her. Zelda will prioritize gimps on Ike because his recovery isn't very good. Ike actually doesn't outrange her that badly. It's not like Ike vs Mario. Zelda's ftilt and fsmash compete with Marth's sword. Ike has the longer disjoints and does outrange her but Zelda steps into her animations meaning she isn't heavily outranged. I'd also like to point out that she's got safe options against shield. Jab is something like +2 on shield, a properly spaced fsmash can't be shield grabbed, and retreating Lkicks are even difficult to punish.

She has a lot of roll counters. Dsmash, Nayru's Love, FW are the easiest punishes since they cover both sides of her. If the player is quick enough to react to a roll, bair OoS is frame 6. Zelda shouldn't be trying to snipe with FW either. It's a risky move that's too slow to merit the attempt. FW snipes by Zelda should be a rare thing by now. The main use of FW is ledge cancelling and elevator kills, and, yes, Ike will die at stupid low percents if Zelda has rage. I've killed an Ike at 30% before because of 120% of rage plus he was charging a smash attack. If you're charging eruption at the ledge hoping to hit Zelda, she can opt to pass by the ledge entirely and just hit you instead. There's a small window of time to hit her before she reappears on your face though so the better option would be to stall her recover with Nayru's Love until she's sure she can recover safely.

That MU is in Ike's favor but by no means is it terrible for her.

Also not to be rude, but how often do you play against Ike?

Zelda's projectiles are too terrible to force approaches on Ike. Din's Fire has an easy-to-deal-with delay before it explodes (with hardly any shield damage, not counting perfect shields, is also easily dodged and/or countered), and the Phantom is so predictable, it hurts. And I mean that in a bad way. Any good Zelda's I've played straight up never use them, save for edgeguarding. And they're better off for it.
By the way, Eruption has super armor on use. Bypassing the edge with FW to hit him during that is guaranteed death for Zelda.

That rage comment is moot since Ike is scarier with rage than Zelda is. If Zelda can kill a smash-charging opponent at 30% while she has 120% of rage, then you should probably know that Ike can kill at 0% under the same parameters.

Ike also has a number of attacks that are safe on shield, his upsmash also covers rolls and kills easily, and his throws are more dangerous because it has 50/50 follow-up situations for kill moves.

Also, the dudes on the Ike boards don't consider Zelda much of a threat, either. I hope this changes by tomorrow with the coming patch. Zelda needs to be free of the Din's Fire helplessness. Just that one change and so much would be different.

 

[Rebel13]

NintendoKnight

I main Ike, and I used to play Zelda. I just want you are not wrong, but you are exaggerating how bad this is for Zelda. The neutral game is, yes, pretty bad for her because of her range issues - fsmash is really punishable on whiff and not great in neutral and phantom is not very punishable but also doesn't really do a lot (lol dins). However, Zelda does actually gimp Ike better than most, and can string/combo him pretty hard because Ike has no fast aerials to break out of juggles.

The matchup is 55:45 Ike imo, not the 70:30 you are making it sound like.

 

[Zylach]

Also not to be rude, but how often do you play against Ike?

Zelda's projectiles are too terrible to force approaches on Ike. Din's Fire has an easy-to-deal-with delay before it explodes (with hardly any shield damage, not counting perfect shields, is also easily dodged and/or countered), and the Phantom is so predictable, it hurts. And I mean that in a bad way. Any good Zelda's I've played straight up never use them, save for edgeguarding. And they're better off for it.
By the way, Eruption has super armor on use. Bypassing the edge with FW to hit him during that is guaranteed death for Zelda.

That rage comment is moot since Ike is scarier with rage than Zelda is. If Zelda can kill a smash-charging opponent at 30% while she has 120% of rage, then you should probably know that Ike can kill at 0% under the same parameters.

Ike also has a number of attacks that are safe on shield, his upsmash also covers rolls and kills easily, and his throws are more dangerous because it has 50/50 follow-up situations for kill moves.

Also, the dudes on the Ike boards don't consider Zelda much of a threat, either. I hope this changes by tomorrow with the coming patch. Zelda needs to be free of the Din's Fire helplessness. Just that one change and so much would be different.

There are a few Ike players that play at my local scene. None that are placing incredibly high though but they know stuff about him that I didn't know was possible so I've learned a lot about the MU from them.

I say that Zelda forces Ike to approach because he can't do anything else. He has no options for camping. Perhaps I used the term a bit loosely. She forces a reaction with her phantom I should say. A typical use for phantom in neutral is to jump away while charging it to its second level. If the other player wants to keep up pressure, they'll run or jump forward. If they jump, Zelda can release it early to either hit them or force an airdodge. If they run forward, she can release it right when she lands which is also when it's charged to level 2 and that will force the other player to either shield, jump, roll, etc.

How the opponent reacts to the phantom's walling properties is what's special though since slower characters can't run through it effectively. If the opponent attacks phantom, then it's a free punish. If the opponent jumps over it, Zelda has them above her which is not a good spot to be at nearly any time in this game. If they don't approach then they don't approach. Zelda can continue ranged pressure if she feels like it given an opponent never approaches her. If the opponent has the lead, then yeah, it can be a problem but getting timed out is rare, especially by an Ike.

Din's fire is bad and I never even said anything about Din's fire. I only spoke about phantom. The only thing Din's does in neutral is potentially do decent shield damage. That's it. Phantom is the real spacing tool for her as long as it's P1 or P2. P3 isn't very useful outside of edgeguarding like you said though it also does some good shield damage and a shield happy opponent can get their shield broken for taking both hits and a FW snipe.

Also, eruption has super armor only if it's fully charged if I remember correctly.

I agree that Ike kills Zelda earlier than the other way round. That said, just because Ike has the potential to kill Zelda earlier than the reverse doesn't make Zelda's kill potential moot at all. She can kill you really early. She's not Sheik. Both characters have the potential to end each other's stocks very early. It's like Metaknight vs. ZSS. ZSS can potentially kill MK earlier than the reverse but that doesn't mean that MK's ability to kill ZSS tragically early doesn't mean anything. The moves Ike has for killing that early with rage are also a bit different than Zelda's. Ike's startup on his early kill moves (save bair) are all pretty high, frame 11 and higher. Zelda's got faster kill moves but the endlag on both characters is pretty bad which makes it a MU all about whomever gets those ideal punishes on whiffs. Ike does get his huge hitboxes though, that's one thing I really like about the character.

I also didn't say Ike didn't have moves that are safe on shield. I know he does and that means Zelda can't use her OoS game against him which is a reason why the MU goes in Ike's favor since Zelda's OoS game is one of her best strengths. Ike's ability to cover rolls is another thing I didn't question. Usually, covering rolls is a kind of small detail when considering MU's unless it's against someone like Samus whose roll is garbage and rolling behind an opponent such that one can be punished with something like an Ike dsmash is generally a bad idea to begin with and shouldn't be practiced except under specific circumstances. I actually think both characters have an equally good grab game. Zelda can get more damage out of her throws at early percents and can get kills off of hers just like Ike can but her dthrow stops getting guaranteed followups before Ike's. If the percents are right (Zelda having no rage and the opponent being above 100%), I believe a dthrow to uair or bair is a guaranteed kill for Zelda kinda like ROB's beep boop and other hoo hahs. I know it's guaranteed with no DI at those percents. Plus, her bthrow can just outright kill by itself near the ledge.

Again, I'm not saying Zelda wins the MU, I'm just saying that it's not terrible for her. I agree that it's 55:45 in Ike's favor.

 

[Rickster]

Never saw this mentioned: Zelda can ledgesnap the ledge from above to completely bypass Eruption edgeguards. Extremely useful. Also, she can trade with him if she chooses not to snap the ledge. Not exactly the wisest trade ever, but it's there.

 

[NintendoKnight]

NintendoKnight

I main Ike, and I used to play Zelda. I just want you are not wrong, but you are exaggerating how bad this is for Zelda. The neutral game is, yes, pretty bad for her because of her range issues - fsmash is really punishable on whiff and not great in neutral and phantom is not very punishable but also doesn't really do a lot (lol dins). However, Zelda does actually gimp Ike better than most, and can string/combo him pretty hard because Ike has no fast aerials to break out of juggles.

The matchup is 55:45 Ike imo, not the 70:30 you are making it sound like.

Fair enough.

There are a few Ike players that play at my local scene. None that are placing incredibly high though but they know stuff about him that I didn't know was possible so I've learned a lot about the MU from them.

I say that Zelda forces Ike to approach because he can't do anything else. He has no options for camping. Perhaps I used the term a bit loosely. She forces a reaction with her phantom I should say. A typical use for phantom in neutral is to jump away while charging it to its second level. If the other player wants to keep up pressure, they'll run or jump forward. If they jump, Zelda can release it early to either hit them or force an airdodge. If they run forward, she can release it right when she lands which is also when it's charged to level 2 and that will force the other player to either shield, jump, roll, etc.

How the opponent reacts to the phantom's walling properties is what's special though since slower characters can't run through it effectively. If the opponent attacks phantom, then it's a free punish. If the opponent jumps over it, Zelda has them above her which is not a good spot to be at nearly any time in this game. If they don't approach then they don't approach. Zelda can continue ranged pressure if she feels like it given an opponent never approaches her. If the opponent has the lead, then yeah, it can be a problem but getting timed out is rare, especially by an Ike.

Din's fire is bad and I never even said anything about Din's fire. I only spoke about phantom. The only thing Din's does in neutral is potentially do decent shield damage. That's it. Phantom is the real spacing tool for her as long as it's P1 or P2. P3 isn't very useful outside of edgeguarding like you said though it also does some good shield damage and a shield happy opponent can get their shield broken for taking both hits and a FW snipe.

Also, eruption has super armor only if it's fully charged if I remember correctly.

I agree that Ike kills Zelda earlier than the other way round. That said, just because Ike has the potential to kill Zelda earlier than the reverse doesn't make Zelda's kill potential moot at all. She can kill you really early. She's not Sheik. Both characters have the potential to end each other's stocks very early. It's like Metaknight vs. ZSS. ZSS can potentially kill MK earlier than the reverse but that doesn't mean that MK's ability to kill ZSS tragically early doesn't mean anything. The moves Ike has for killing that early with rage are also a bit different than Zelda's. Ike's startup on his early kill moves (save bair) are all pretty high, frame 11 and higher. Zelda's got faster kill moves but the endlag on both characters is pretty bad which makes it a MU all about whomever gets those ideal punishes on whiffs. Ike does get his huge hitboxes though, that's one thing I really like about the character.

I also didn't say Ike didn't have moves that are safe on shield. I know he does and that means Zelda can't use her OoS game against him which is a reason why the MU goes in Ike's favor since Zelda's OoS game is one of her best strengths. Ike's ability to cover rolls is another thing I didn't question. Usually, covering rolls is a kind of small detail when considering MU's unless it's against someone like Samus whose roll is garbage and rolling behind an opponent such that one can be punished with something like an Ike dsmash is generally a bad idea to begin with and shouldn't be practiced except under specific circumstances. I actually think both characters have an equally good grab game. Zelda can get more damage out of her throws at early percents and can get kills off of hers just like Ike can but her dthrow stops getting guaranteed followups before Ike's. If the percents are right (Zelda having no rage and the opponent being above 100%), I believe a dthrow to uair or bair is a guaranteed kill for Zelda kinda like ROB's beep boop and other hoo hahs. I know it's guaranteed with no DI at those percents. Plus, her bthrow can just outright kill by itself near the ledge.

Again, I'm not saying Zelda wins the MU, I'm just saying that it's not terrible for her. I agree that it's 55:45 in Ike's favor.

Also, fair enough. On your point of Eruption, there are three phases. Phase 2 is the good one that KOs without the 10% self-dealt damage. Phase 2 does have armor, yes. Phase 3, which is the full charge and what I assume you're talking about, is only ever used for mindgames and calling out bluffs because "needless ten percent is needless."

Never saw this mentioned: Zelda can ledgesnap the ledge from above to completely bypass Eruption edgeguards. Extremely useful. Also, she can trade with him if she chooses not to snap the ledge. Not exactly the wisest trade ever, but it's there.

Actually, you know about that 1-frame (or 2-frame, it doesn't matter) window of vulnerability when ledge snapping?

Yeah...Eruption's massive lingering hitbox kind of swallows ledge snapping whole when timed right. No snap is safe, not Sheik's, not Zelda's, and DEFINITELY not Mario's. (Though Mario's up-b is the freaking hardest thing to edgeguard. I've nailed a number of Marths, Lucinas, and occasionally a Meta Knight, but never Mario... that slippery son of a...)

Well done fellows, I concede the argument! Just for the record, I enjoy playing Zelda in this game, and want her to be the power-hitting character that we all know she deserves to be.

Also, how come no mentioned how good her dair is? Sweetspot meteors powerfully, and sourspot still meteors decently.

Anyway, good debate. Carry on.

 

[BJN39]

Actually, you know about that 1-frame (or 2-frame, it doesn't matter) window of vulnerability when ledge snapping?

Yeah...Eruption's massive lingering hitbox kind of swallows ledge snapping whole when timed right. No snap is safe, not Sheik's, not Zelda's, and DEFINITELY not Mario's.

Actually, the point Rickster was making is that there's a special recovery option available (At least to) teleport recoveries, where by initiating a teleport ABOVE the ledge, angling toward the ledge, (downward angle) releasing the joystick AFTER you start moving but BEFORE reaching the ledge, your character can do a 100% invincible ledge grab out of teleport. Completely impervious to eruption.

Lavani iirc has a GIF of someone doing this vs a smart bomb explosion.

It's a not very widely known technique, but incredibly useful. It takes some practice to use consistently.

 

[Lavani]

oh am i being summoned for a science lesson

snap high = invincible

approach ledge from below, hold down to delay snap, release down after passing ledge = invincible

If you watch high level sheiks in particular you'll see them abuse these recovery angles a lot, but anyone can take advantage of it and it's definitely the easiest/most significant with teleport recoveries to ensure they safely reach the ledge.

there's a special recovery option available (At least to) teleport recoveries

It is actually all recoveries/'ledge grabs in general, the first time I noticed it was when a Ganondorf mysteriously snapped diagonally down through Luma safely

 

[NintendoKnight]

Actually, the point Rickster was making is that there's a special recovery option available (At least to) teleport recoveries, where by initiating a teleport ABOVE the ledge, angling toward the ledge, (downward angle) releasing the joystick AFTER you start moving but BEFORE reaching the ledge, your character can do a 100% invincible ledge grab out of teleport. Completely impervious to eruption.

Lavani iirc has a GIF of someone doing this vs a smart bomb explosion.

It's a not very widely known technique, but incredibly useful. It takes some practice to use consistently.

oh am i being summoned for a science lesson

snap high = invincible

approach ledge from below, hold down to delay snap, release down after passing ledge = invincible

If you watch high level sheiks in particular you'll see them abuse these recovery angles a lot, but anyone can take advantage of it and it's definitely the easiest/most significant with teleport recoveries to ensure they safely reach the ledge.


It is actually all recoveries/'ledge grabs in general, the first time I noticed it was when a Ganondorf mysteriously snapped diagonally down through Luma safely

WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!

 

[sl6ck]

While Ike can be gimped pretty easily using this he still has quick draw to help, this also happens to Little Mac and most noticeably Cloud, since Cloud doesn't have a horizontal recovery option, like Little Mac and Ike do. You do have to remember that Aether has really good vertical reach so it is possible that he could just wait out the Phantom and still recover just fine. I have to do this with characters with counters all the time.

Ike still has the advantage but this is a good trick Zelda players can use in this MU.

It's worth practicing edgeguarding MUs with phantom. If mastered most characters won't ever have the chance of recovering.

 

[Lavani]

that's what you get for not reading all of my posts

 

[Rickster]

So cyst how exactly does this work?
Do you have to space this so that your recovery is at the max distance?
Does it work during the teleports auto-snap portion or just the end.
Easiest way to do it consistently???

I need the breakdown.

Here you go:
1. Be above ledge, any distance works as long as it's actually in range for the teleport.
2. Angle your teleport down. Normally, if you keep holding down, you'd fly past it and die but...
3. Right when you disappear, stop holding down, and if done correctly, you'll snap like normal except be fully invincible.

It takes some practice but it's sooooo useful, and not widely known. Order of difficulty imo is Sheik>Zelda>Palutena>Mewtwo (based on startup times, since that make the input window smaller).

 

[Lavani]

You hold down to not autosnap, so it basically what is done in this video?
But lower?

Yeah, basically. Just let go once you're above the ledge but still in snap range.

It's stupidly precise tho

 

[Rickster]

Okay I got that part and have been doing it for a while now.
This also works when vertically recovering to the ledge, yes?

The part I'm confused about is the still gaining invincibility while being below the stage.
Like this.


You hold down to not autosnap, so it basically what is done in this video?
But lower?

I actually have no idea what's happening in that one gif. I assumed it was just another Sheik thing.

Lavani help pls

And yes the invincible snap works with vertical angles. Just make sure the horizontal spacing is right or you'll either slide off the stage upon reappearing or miss the ledge entirely. You can even SH backwards offstage and immediately tele-snap for fanciness, lol.

 

[Lavani]

This seems a bit less necessary for Zelda/Palu/Mewtwo because of their floatiness combined with their teleports.
It seems they can usually always snag the vertical recovery which is much easier. Correct?

Yeah, pretty much. And even less so for Sheik, since she has that dumb invincible jump at the start of Vanish so she can just jump up above the ledge then teleport down to it. Watch a top level Sheik like ZeRo or Vinnie recover, they do this pretty much every time.

The invincible snap thing is all recoveries btw, not just teleports.