ZELDA HOO HA COMBO

[Sunny Jack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZHKcFbydnA

WE TOP TIER NOW BOYZ

Can we discuss this? This needs to be addressed.

 

[pixelarcane]

This has always been possible, dependent on the opponent's DI. Might be easier due to the range buff though.

 

[Valamway]

I'm pretty sure that the range that it's guaranteed with good DI is barely improved at all.
Definitely still doesn't work at kill%.

 

[buzzard]

Yes It was always possible but it's slightly easier because getting grabs is easier now, and hitting with the UAir is also easier now.

It might KO slightly earlier as well, but you still need to read DI.

 

[ZombieBran]

Now we just need a banana to replace the input error also known as Din's Fire.

 

[Fuj¡nTalksAboutFingerBang]

Oh **** that non moving opponent got WRECKED!!!!!

Ban•Zelda


Are Sm4sh Zelda mains really this dumb lol?

I can understand randos on FB sharing this but...you gorls claim to use her.

 

[KlicKlac]

This was always possible. I have done this 1000s of times and it's my favorite kill setup. Of course, with proper DI back away from zelda after the dthrow, it's a lot harder to land the upair.

 

[Y^2]

I made an account LITERALLY JUST TO SAY THIS:
The new Zelda Hoo-Ha/Beep-Boop/Ding-Dong should be called the Din-Dong in reference to Din's Fire from the Zelda lore.
Please... God oh Lordy please make this happen

 

[Valamway]

I made an account LITERALLY JUST TO SAY THIS:
The new Zelda Hoo-Ha/Beep-Boop/Ding-Dong should be called the Din-Dong in reference to Din's Fire from the Zelda lore.
Please... God oh Lordy please make this happen

It's not new, and does not need a name.
Maybe if it were guaranteed it would deserve a name, but any kill setups that require your opponent to consistently DI incorrectly aren't worth naming.

Things only get names when they're relevant, and no one is going to switch to Zelda for high level play.
Names aren't chosen either; they're memed into existence by commentators.

 

[Rickster]

I nominate Finger Bang (a classic Zelda board term), Big Boom (although Uair is more of a little boom), and BAN•ZELDA.

Finger Bang is my favorite though.

 

[BJN39]

If irrelevant Robins can boost their ego with fancy nicknames for their irrelevant character, so can we. :^) doesn't matter if we aren't going to win any tourneys with ha.

Then we can yell "FINGER BANG" when we land that clutch Dthrow UAir

And then everyone will turn their heads and stare

Butbutbut because obviously because we were winning with Zelda! Not for any other reason!

 

[Meru.]

I'm 100% sure this wasn't guaranteed before the patch though. You could DI away and just jump out or in the worst case airdodge before Zelda could hit you, I'm sure of it. I thought it was a 50/50 now but it isn't, it's flat out guaranteed provided you read their DI. I have to test this more but I think you can actually react to their DI. You first do a dash, if they DI away you jump towards them and Uair, and if they DI to you, you jump back. I'm really quite sure this has become possible or at least A LOT easier because of the hitbox buff.

 

[buzzard]

I'm 100% sure this wasn't guaranteed before the patch though. You could DI away and just jump out or in the worst case airdodge before Zelda could hit you, I'm sure of it. I thought it was a 50/50 now but it isn't, it's flat out guaranteed provided you read their DI. I have to test this more but I think you can actually react to their DI. You first do a dash, if they DI away you jump towards them and Uair, and if they DI to you, you jump back. I'm really quite sure this has become possible or at least A LOT easier because of the hitbox buff.

Interesting, will have to lab it.

 

[Valamway]

People way overuse "50/50."
This is not a 50/50 because there is always a correct way to DI to not get killed.
Your opponent has to not know the matchup and DI the very slow dthrow incorrectly for there to be a kill confirm.
Even if you could always chase their DI to get a uair, that's not a 50/50 either because it's always the same move.
But no move is guaranteed from dthrow past 40% or so, just like before, because dthrow did not get buffed.

 

[Rickster]

Just how big is one "hitbox unit" anyway?

 

[buzzard]

Just how big is one "hitbox unit" anyway?

Aren't the fair/bair sweestspots 1.9 units in size?

And those are really tiny.

 

[Rickster]

Aren't the fair/bair sweestspots 1.9 units in size?

And those are really tiny.

Ok I'm having a harder time believing the hitbox buff on Uair was even significant now. That's a pretty small increase...

 

[buzzard]

I've checked and they are indeed 1.9 units in size.

 

[Valamway]

For further reference, the aerial reappearance hitbox is 16 units (sourspot).
I'm pretty sure that's the biggest hitbox Zelda has.
The biggest part of dash attack is 5.
The final jab hitbox is 6.

So... Yeah, that's quite a size "buff."

Patch-hype-blindness is real with this Zelda dthrow nonsense.

 

[BJN39]

A unit increase is at about the point where it makes some point to get it.

Anything less than a unit would be irrelevant.

Don't harp on the UAir size buff. If anything an off-set circle attack is the best place to get a size buff because the size is increased in all directions. So each bit of size improvement is useful, not just the forward range.

 

[Valamway]

It's not nothing, but nothing gave Zelda a better grab game this patch other than her better base grabs...
Same follow-ups at the same percents as always, with maybe 2-3% higher uair followups because of that size increase.
There is no hoo hah.

 

[Rickster]

There isn't a Hoo Hah...

Spoiler

But there's a Finger Bang.

 

[KlicKlac]

There isn't a Hoo Hah...

Spoiler

But there's a Finger Bang.

I've always called it the finger bang. The best name lol.

 

[Rickster]

I've always called it the finger bang. The best name lol.

I give full credit to Fujin back in the Brawl Zelda days.

 

[Meru.]

People way overuse "50/50."
This is not a 50/50 because there is always a correct way to DI to not get killed.
Your opponent has to not know the matchup and DI the very slow dthrow incorrectly for there to be a kill confirm.
Even if you could always chase their DI to get a uair, that's not a 50/50 either because it's always the same move.
But no move is guaranteed from dthrow past 40% or so, just like before, because dthrow did not get buffed.

Dude I'm telling you, I tested it and from my testing it's actually guaranteed. I first tested it online and but I did it wrong (I dashed for too long and/or input the Uair too late) , thus thinking you can airdodge out of it and it's a 50/50. However I was wrong, because it's not. Provided you read their DI, it's a 100/0. If you do it correctly they cannot escape it, even if they DI away. I have tested and tried this in matches against several different people and it seems they canmot escape it. The input seems very frame specific though and when I played against a Bayonetta she very often seemed to be able to Bat Within. I'm assuming the timing on it is quite strict.

Since I think this is a little bit too good to be true, I'm going to test this out again tomorrow in a local and I'll let you guys know. The inputs are slight dash jump immediately Uair (do not wait, there is no need to). Just ask someone to help you lab for 10 minutes and ask them to DI her Dthrow behind and away from her and do an airdodge as fast as possible. It seems to to be quite frame specific but it's very doable. Help plz.

Guys I'm usually the most pessimistic about Zelda. I was the one who said Zelda could be down in a bottom tier of her own because she's that bad. You know there's something going on when I'm the most optimistic around here XD. I might be wrong about all this (it's crazy to think a hitbox buff can change so much), but I'd really like to test this extensively before I conclude I'm wrong because this is actually pretty big.

 

[Valamway]

What percent range are claiming this works?
From 0% to kill% on every character?

Have you tested DI diagonally up and behind?
Down and behind?

Testing on a Bayonetta is a good idea; it tells you how tight the frame window is if they are properly buffering an airdodge input.

 

[Meru.]

What percent range are claiming this works?
From 0% to kill% on every character?

Have you tested DI diagonally up and behind?

It works from about 80%, even before it kills. Tested on various characters (mostly Mario though) but it didn't seem to make any big difference, the angle it sends them is the same.

Good call on the up and behind DI. I have tested behind, but not up + behind yet.

 

[Valamway]

It works from about 80%, even before it kills. Tested on various characters (mostly Mario though) but it didn't seem to make any big difference, the angle it sends them is the same.
Good call on the up and behind DI. I have tested behind, but not up + behind yet.

I would definitely test every behind angle; I think down and behind might actually take the opponent the furthest away.
Also if you're testing in training mode, switch to a real match against a Bayo and then against a character with a frame 2 airdodge.
And test with different amounts of rage.

I might try to test too, if I can get someone to DI for me.
Since dthrow's knockback is weight independent, the character you test only matters for the size of their hurtbox and their weight and gravity for uair killing.

 

[Rickster]

Well, if Dthrow truly can't be easily escaped by simply jumping anymore, that can be a huge help to both our damage racking and kill confirms. Since before, if you knew the MU at all (or just payed attention to the KB angle of the throw) just DIing and jumping worked.

Thanks for all the testing everyone!

 

[Meru.]

It's guaranteed guys. DIing behind away in whatever direction (including holding up + behind, up + down) can be followed. It cannot be airdodged or jumped out of, it's 100 guaranteed. DI can be reacted to, but it's harder than other throw Uair combos. I tested it on Mario but I have tried it in matches against Roy, Peach, Mewtwo, Robin, Kirby, Bowser and Bayonetta. It worked flawlessly on every character but Bayonetta. Vs Bayonetta execution is much tighter. I did get it sometimes, but at times she was able to Bat Within which is on frame 1. I'm quite sure it's guaranteed on her too though, but just a bit harder (also note she has the laggiest airdodge in the game so if you bait it you can kick her or whatever). Then again the characters I tested the Dthrow Uair on all had frame 3 airdodges instead of frame 2 airdodges except for Mewtwo, and I'm quite sure it doesn't make that much of a difference.

One important thing to note is that Dthrow has a base knockback value of 80 whereas Uair only has 30. As we all know, moves with higher base knockback have a bigger rage effect so this means that rage affects Dthrow more than it does Uair. As a consequence, at kill percent with rage Dthrow will pop them up too high for Uair at connect (and when Dthrow Uair does connect atbrage percent, it will likely not kill because Uairs rage effect is not big enough). In order for Uair to connect at rage percent, it seems you will have to double jump. It will catch every optiom except for airdodge. This means that with rage Dthrow becomes a 50/50. I have tested very little with rage however since I didn't have enough time so this requires much more testing.

In summary:
Dthrow Uair is guaranteed, regardless of what character.
The window is tight.
DI can be reacted to.
With rage it likely becomes a 50/50 but this needs more testing.

 

[Valamway]

I'm assuming it connects at low enough percents.
(Nair is the move to do from 0%-20% out of dthrow anyway.)
What percent does it stop working, assuming rage is a non-factor?
It kills even Bowser on the main stage of Battlefield with low DI on the dthrow and good DI on the uair?

 

[Meru.]

I haven't labbed a lot with percents yet. I was the only Zelda player at the local and I didn't want ti bither them too much by labbing stuff for a character theyre not very interested in ._. Anyway, it connects well before it kills and after the percent it starts killing. I think it works till about 130 on Mario or something? Maybe even later. After that it might become a 50/50 since you have to jump and I don't think double jump Uair is fast enough for it to be guaranteed. They can probably airdodge but not jump out. So yeah need some more help with percents.

 

[buzzard]

It's guaranteed guys. DIing behind away in whatever direction (including holding up + behind, up + down) can be followed. It cannot be airdodged or jumped out of, it's 100 guaranteed. DI can be reacted to, but it's harder than other throw Uair combos. I tested it on Mario but I have tried it in matches against Roy, Peach, Mewtwo, Robin, Kirby, Bowser and Bayonetta. It worked flawlessly on every character but Bayonetta. Vs Bayonetta execution is much tighter. I did get it sometimes, but at times she was able to Bat Within which is on frame 1. I'm quite sure it's guaranteed on her too though, but just a bit harder (also note she has the laggiest airdodge in the game so if you bait it you can kick her or whatever). Then again the characters I tested the Dthrow Uair on all had frame 3 airdodges instead of frame 2 airdodges except for Mewtwo, and I'm quite sure it doesn't make that much of a difference.

One important thing to note is that Dthrow has a base knockback value of 80 whereas Uair only has 30. As we all know, moves with higher base knockback have a bigger rage effect so this means that rage affects Dthrow more than it does Uair. As a consequence, at kill percent with rage Dthrow will pop them up too high for Uair at connect (and when Dthrow Uair does connect atbrage percent, it will likely not kill because Uairs rage effect is not big enough). In order for Uair to connect at rage percent, it seems you will have to double jump. It will catch every optiom except for airdodge. This means that with rage Dthrow becomes a 50/50. I have tested very little with rage however since I didn't have enough time so this requires much more testing.

In summary:
Dthrow Uair is guaranteed, regardless of what character.
The window is tight.
DI can be reacted to.
With rage it likely becomes a 50/50 but this needs more testing.

Good info and great work, thanks!

 

[Macchiato]

Also mentioning that around 50-65% if an opponent DIs away, Bair is guarenteed and can kill depending on stage position. It is a true 50/50

 

[Valamway]

Also mentioning that around 50-65% if an opponent DIs away, Bair is guarenteed and can kill depending on stage position. It is a true 50/50

It's not a 50/50, at all.

Uair isn't going to kill at that low of a percent, and uair does less damage than a bair.
So the correct answer at that percent is to DI up and away, to make the bair impossible without making the uair too super easy.
You can DI just above bair range, even, which might make the Zelda go for it.
At this point, it would sourspot, dealing only 4 damage.
Even if the Zelda chooses to go for uair, beforehand because the DI for uair has to be chased from a buffered forwards dash, the uair deals less damage than a sweetbair and won't kill.

A situation is NOT a 50/50 unless there are two results of nearly equal ending value that the defender must choose between in an attempt to mix up the attacker.
Dthrow never sets up a 50/50 scenario, although at kill% for uair it is a DI chase.

 

[Macchiato]

It's not a 50/50, at all.

Uair isn't going to kill at that low of a percent, and uair does less damage than a bair.
So the correct answer at that percent is to DI up and away, to make the bair impossible without making the uair too super easy.
You can DI just above bair range, even, which might make the Zelda go for it.
At this point, it would sourspot, dealing only 4 damage.
Even if the Zelda chooses to go for uair, beforehand because the DI for uair has to be chased from a buffered forwards dash, the uair deals less damage than a sweetbair and won't kill.

A situation is NOT a 50/50 unless there are two results of nearly equal ending value that the defender must choose between in an attempt to mix up the attacker.
Dthrow never sets up a 50/50 scenario, although at kill% for uair it is a DI chase.

It would not sourspot lol, I tested it. It would still deal full 20%

 

[Valamway]

It would not sourspot lol, I tested it. It would still deal full 20%

You didn't read my reply fully enough.
If you DI up and away, a sweetspot bair isn't guaranteed.
Only for straight away.

I'm not arguing that a sweetbair can't connect, just that if the opponent DIs in a way that makes it possible that they have made a mistake.
That means it's not a 50/50.

Also, Zelda's dthrow to uair is not actually a Hoo-Hah, despite the title of this thread.
Neither is Diddy's current uthrow to uair, or Bowser's (though it almost used to be).
The thing that was so significant about the original hoo-hah is that it worked from 0% to kill%, no matter the Rage, staleness, DI, or any other factor.

 

[Macchiato]

You didn't read my reply fully enough.
If you DI up and away, a sweetspot bair isn't guaranteed.
Only for straight away.

I'm not arguing that a sweetbair can't connect, just that if the opponent DIs in a way that makes it possible that they have made a mistake.

then uair easy

 

[Valamway]

then uair easy

Uair does 17%, sweetspot bair does 20%.
Uair will not kill at the percent range where a sweetspot bair will connect from a dthrow.

Plus the Zelda can't choose which one to do after the dthrow; you have to buffer the forwards dash to catch them with a uair and you have to buffer double jump to catch them with a bair.

It's not a 50/50 for the opponent because one scenario ends with less damage taken and they don't lose their stock.
Do you get it now?

 

[Rickster]

I still find it funny that Dthrow Uair is still, to this day, one of the most hotly debated things among Zelda mains.

We've been going back and forth with this thing since release lmao