Important Zelda Finger Bangs Everyone.

[BJN39]

Now that you've seen my clickbait title...

This is an informative post about Zelda's Dthrow > UAir combo, "Finger Bang"​

Dat hoo-haa name right? It is Zelda's hoo-haa's TRUE name.

Anyways....

Dthrow > UAir is a guaranteed combo

Zelda board commoner: "ehh, what?? :secretkpop:"

There's been plenty of argument as to whether this was so, or if was buffed to work in 1.1.5 (<nope). Basically, it is guaranteed. I briefly explained this a while ago, but I felt a detailed post on it could be neat for users.
--

Dthrow has 18F of endlag as of 1.1.5 (after being buffed from 27F of endlag prior to 1.0.4) using KuroganeHammer's Calculator, Dthrow's launcher hit is calculated to have 37F of hitstun at 4% for ALL characters, from Bowser to Jigglypuff. (Of course, when Dthrow is used at 0%, the first 4 hits will rack up 4% before the launcher hit occurs.)

That means:
Endlag ~ (final hitframe - (FAF -1)) ~ 51 - (70 - 1) = -18
Hitstun ~ (calculation) ~ 37
Hit Advantage ~ (hitstun + (-endlag)) ~ 37 - 18 = 19

So Dthrow has a 19F hit advantage at 0% on everyone. Or, to put it even more simply, Zelda has a short window of time where she can act before the opponent can, beginning even at 0%, and it's not too short that she can't get guaranteed hits off it.

Relevant Data: All character airdodge data [1.1.6] from KuroganeHammer

Every airdodge has a small vulnerable startup period bar Bayonetta. (However she will take half damage for any hit landed before frame 5, AKA at the very beginning of the animation.) It ranges from 1 vulnerable frame, to 3F. This effectively adds more frames to the hit advantage for Dthrow.

In simpler terms, the window of time she has where an opponent can't act is a tiny bit longer at all times than just a calculation of the target's damage alone, but it varies between characters.

For frame 2 airdodges, the hit advantage is raised to 20F, and +1 more frame for every frame later a character's airdodge invulnerability begins. (So 20-22 frames of hit advantage at 0%) Sort of repeating myself, but I just want this to be clear.

Zelda's jumpsquat is 6 frames, and her Up Aerial hits frame 14. So, for Dthrow to Up Aerial to be guaranteed, Zelda would need 20F of hit advantage--would you look at that! Zelda has a base hit advantage of exactly 20F vs almost everyone trying to airdodge at 0%!

Now, this means Dthrow to Up Air is guaranteed starting at 0% vs almost every character if you are frame perfect. Exactly frame perfect. You must jump (both SH > short hop and FH > full hop will do) immediately as soon as possible post-Dthrow, and then UAir the earliest possible frame after leaving the ground.

If you use C-stick set to smashes, this could be a little more difficult. If you're like me, you probably will accidentally do a JC Usmash about 384624598 times.

Note: By referencing Kuroganehammer's airdodge data, it gives you an idea of which MUs trying Dthrow > UAir would be an alright idea, and which ones are going to be hard to land Dthrow UAir.

Spoiler: Visual Listing of Airdodges

Frame 2 Airdodges

Frame 3 Airdodges

Frame 4 Airdodges

*Special Cases*

Most airdodges are frame 3, and thus you get a 1F leeway to hit with UAir after Dthrow at 0%. A few characters allow Zelda 1 frame even more. (Only 6 characters) Finally, 18 characters will be extremely difficult to catch. (Unfortunately, several of these are difficult MUs for Zelda to boot.)

A few select characters are "special cases" concerning airdodges and difficulty landing UAir, in that all of them have options that initiate invincibility or "dodges" faster than their airdodge invincibility:
- Bayonetta's airdodge "Bat Within" can "dodge" attacks starting frame 1, but she will take half damage for any attack landed before frame 5. She will be put into a forced animation which will make it difficult or impossible for her to punish the UAir.
- Ryu has two options: Focus Attack, which has frame 1 armor versus a single hit, and Shoryuken, where simple usage has frame 3 invulnerability, and the super version has frame 1 invulnerability.
- Marth, Lucina, and Little Mac's aerial Up Specials all have frame 1 invulnerability.

These numbers effectively move their airdodge invulnerability up a couple frames, should they attempt to use these moves during a Dthrow > UAir. By 38F of hitstun, (1 additional frame) UAir will technically still be guaranteed versus all of these, but it will be extremely hard to do versus these specific cases. Duly note that Dthrow > NAir will be able to hit before these attacks can intercept at low percent when the UAir window is very tight. (It will also override Ryu's Focus Attack due to having multiple hits.) In addition, never forget that you can attempt reading any of these options, and punishing their freefall/endlag.

For landing UAir at 0%, you are effectively interrupting their airdodge animation. Now, this window is way too tight. Thankfully, due to knock back growth, (KBG) known by some as knock back scaling, the hitstun increases slowly, and slightly, as damage and KB rise.

Relevant Data: All character weight data [1.1.6] from KuroganeHammer

Many spoilers below this point reference the SSB4 cast's weight values for data regarding Dthrow > UAir. Now, these tables are only showing every 5 units of weight, but for characters that are not exactly at one of these numbers, rounding their weight upwards to the next 5 will generally give you the appropriate number/value, should you want to find out what the percent for a specific character is.

Spoiler: +1 Frame of Hitstun

The next bonus frame of hitstun is yielded after the noted percents VS the weights listed. THIS, is the percent when you grab the target, NOT after Dthrow hits 1-4. DK has a weight of 122, but applies to 120 weight. Jigglypuff has a weight of 68, but applies to 70 weight.

WEIGHT|USE DTHROW @ THIS % AND ON
130|14%
120 + DK|13%
115|13%
110|12%
105|12%
100|11%
95|11%
90|11%
85|10%
80|10%
75|9%
70 + Jigglypuff|9%

When the opponents receive just one more frame of htistun, (So, 38F of htistun) Zelda is technically able to land UAir BEFORE the target can act, so it's 100% guaranteed when frame perfect.

So, obviously, if you have to be frame perfect and immediately use j.UAir, then this means you don't have time to turn or dash backwards at low percent. So frame perfect Dthrow > UAir is guaranteed at low percents, if the opponent does NOT DI outward.

Now, let's be clear: Dthrow > NAir is guaranteed with a far larger guarantee window than UAir. At low percents, Zelda can still turn, or dash back and do a j.NAir, which people should be going for at the lowest percents anyways. Furthermore, outward DI makes it easy for Zelda to go for the more damaging front side loop hits of NAir. It simply should be said that NAir is a far better option until around 50% on all characters due to the higher chance of successfully landing. This also leaves UAir fresher--which could be useful, as seen later.

So, it's hard as heck to land UAir at low percent. But before you throw in the hat on UAir, I want to discuss something else:


Dthrow > UAir may actually work versus outward DI?

Ayy, look what we have here!

Yes. While most players, if not all, originally believed outward DI neutered Dthrow > UAir, it is in fact not a deterrent.

Best results if you perform a "perfect execution." Now, however, another input is added. As soon as possible post-Dthrow, Zelda must perform a dash backwards, (Relative to the direction Zelda was facing when you used Dthrow) and on frame 2~3 of the dash [Citation Needed] (So basically immediately for a normal human.) perform the perfectly executed j.UAir while moving backwards (Again relative). If you correctly executed this, Zelda will slide while performing her jumpsquat, and then she will leave the ground farther away (Closer to the target) then a stationary j.UAir (+moving backwards) after Dthrow.

With practice it can be performed, but I would comment that it is difficult to do without thorough practice. However, the reward has become evident as players perfect its usage.

Relevant Data: According to KuroganeHammer, hitstun can be interrupted on frame 41 (Think of it like a FAF/IASA of 41) In simple terms, hitstun has a cap-out point, where the effective hitstun no longer increases.

With that in mind, there is a cap on how much hitstun Zelda's Dthrow can yield while she can attempt UAir.

Spoiler: Hitstun Cap

At the percents listed, when Dthrow is used, the matching weight will take 40F of hitstun. Hitstun is airdodge interruptable after 40F of hitstun, should the KB calculate to >40F of hitstun. So this is effectively the hitstun cap. Once again, DK has a weight of 122, but applies to 120 weight. Jigglypuff has a weight of 68, but applies to 70 weight.

WEIGHT|HITSTUN CAPS @ THIS %
130|51%
120 + DK|49%
115|48%
110|46%
105|45%
100|44%
95|43%
90|41%
85|40%
80|39%
75|38%
70 + Jigglypuff|36%

Note: Hitstun can be interrupted earliest (Frame 41) ONLY when jumps or airdodges are used. Other actions such as attacks and specials can only be used to interrupt hitstun on frame 45--so a bit later. Zelda and her targets should both keep that in mind.

After these percents listen in the spoiler, you are not getting any more bonus hitstun. However, now the total hitstun has increased. The hitstun 'cap' is 40F, (Airdodge can interrupt the hitstun after that) so the maximum hit advantage is 22 frames. However, then we get to add airdodge vulnerable startup, which raises the maximum hit advantage to 23-25 frames. (Barring the aforementioned "special case" of Bayonetta, whose window is only 22F should she use her frame 1 dodge-granting Bat Within. HOWEVER, other specials cases such as Lucina/Marth, Ryu, and Little Mac can only use their frame 1 invulnerability-granting specials after 4 more frames--as noted in the note above. Thus, one should refer to their airdodge frame data in this case.)

The percents at which hitstun caps off are of course NOT the maximum percents at which Zelda can reach with a FH UAir.

Spoiler: Knockback Cap

At the percent listed, for the matching weight, Dthrow sends the opponent too high for UAir to land. Note, these are fully data calculated percents, and in game, Zelda can continue to land UAIr slightly past this. These numbers can be considered "safe" percent caps. Duly note, that if the opponent didn't DI and is at this cap, they are already past the point where Dthrow > UAir will KO them with no rage considered. DK has a weight of 122, but applies to 120 weight. Jigglypuff has a weight of 68, but applies to 70 weight.

WEIGHT|UAIR 'CANNOT' REACH @ THIS %
130|126%
120 + DK|121%
115|118%
110|115%
105|112%
100|110%
95|107%
90|104%
85|101%
80|98%
75|96%
70 + Jigglypuff|92%

Back to the maximum hitstun number: 23-25F (Considering airdodge startup)

The aforementioned input execution that 'should' catch outward DI obviously takes a bit more than instant j.UAir's 20F. The dash turn at the beginning will add 2F for a perfectly executed followup. So DI following Dthrow with j.UAir can ONLY occur if the target takes enough hitstun to allow Zelda to add on the dash turn before the jumpsquat. So, you cannot follow Dthrow's outward DI with j.UAir until a certain percent versus most characters.

(A pretty interesting revelation imo. I hadn't thought of it until KuroganeHammer and SpaceJam released their SSB4 super calculator.)

Note: According to Lavani , as of 1.1.5, Zelda's improved UAir hitbox makes it possible to land UAir versus certain characters after an outward DI'ed Dthrow, without having to do a dash backwards. Simply moving backwards (relative) while jumping up will do. (So, I guess 1.1.5 DID do something for this combo, it just wasn't the reason Dthrow > UAir works alone.)

This means that versus certain characters, you can follow outward DI and land the UAir in only 20F, thus giving you a slightly larger window to land the UAir. This would also suggest that versus that same set of characters, Dthrow > UAir is guaranteed all the way from 0% to when it can KO.

Currently which characters can be hit by a non-dash back j.UAir even when DI'ing outward is not recorded.

Current testing suggests that the execution to land UAir without dashing backwards varies character-by-character. To catch some characters, Zelda would want to UAir as soon as possible after leaving the ground. In other cases, Zelda cannot land the UAir unless it is delayed by 1-2 frames. Delaying the UAir while still hitting them before they airdodge is equally difficult to a dash back j.UAir, and Zeldas would be better off attempting a dash back j.UAir.

When characters with frame 2 airdodges hit the hitstun cap, there will be a 1F leeway window for a perfectly executed dash back j.UAir followup. I would recommend this is the best percent at which Zelda can begin to follow outward DI and catch the UAir under normal circumstances. (See above note.)

Now, if we can follow outward DI at higher percents, then...Finger Banging people to death?? Yes. Unfortunately I have not collected percents for each character when Finger Bang will KO (And I'm not sure how I'd get it done considering outward DI...) But expect me to get on this someday! Because this is kind of a relevant Zelda deal.


Zelda's "Anger Issues," & how they affect Dthrow Combos

As you likely know, as a player's damage raises, their attacks will begin to do a little more KB than when they were at a fresh 0%. (We've dubbed it "rage.") This obviously affects Dthrow, and it does so mostly negatively regarding catching an UAir.

Primarily, high rage will cause the percent window during which the opponent will not fly too far from Dthrow to shrink. It is somewhat negligible at low rage, but at maximum rage, Dthrow may launch opponents too far for the followup even at low percent.

Through some calculations we can see what kind of effective knock back opponents will receive from a rage-boosted Dthrow.

Spoiler: Rage Matching

These numbers measure, at varying rage levels, what damage from a no rage Dthrow would be needed to match a Dthrow used at 0%, for those amounts of rage. So at 103%, Bowser (130 weight) will take as much KB from no rage Dthrow as he would from a maximum rage Dthrow at 0%.

WEIGHT|0%|50%|100%|150%
130|0%|10%|56%|103%
120|0%|9%|54%|98%
115|0%|9%|52%|95%
110|0%|9%|51%|93%
105|0%|8%|50%|91%
100|0%|8%|49%|89%
95|0%|8%|47%|86%
90|0%|8%|46%|84%
85|0%|7%|45%|82%
80|0%|7%|43%|80%
75|0%|7%|42%|77%
70|0%|6%|41%|75%

As you can see, when Zelda's rage is too high, then Dthrow will knock opponents too far for low percent NAirs, and at higher percents, Zelda may lose the ability to Dthrow > UAir to KO.

However, as the knock back is increased by rage, the hitstun induced is increased as wwell, due to how hitstun calculation works.

Looking at the 100% rage numbers in the previous spoiler, it can be seen that on a target at 0%, they will already be at the Dthrow hitstun cap. So, firstly, you can already catch guaranteed Dthrow > UAir, and there is already enough hitstun to follow outward DI in cases where a dash back is required. The trade off is that they will be launched too far in almost half the time.

Spoiler: Hitstun Cap & Rage

For each weight, and matching column, the numbers listed record what percents, with varying rage levels, opponents for that weight will reach Dthrow's hitstun cap when Dthrow is used. (See: "hitstun cap," for cap percents at no rage.) So Bowser (130 weight) will hit 40F of hitstun at 51% (0% rage), 37% (50% rage), 13% (75% rage), and will already hit the cap at 0% by 100% rage.

General: the hitstun will already be at maximum versus an opponent at 0% at around 80-90% rage.

WEIGHT|50%|75%|100%
130|37%|13%|0%
120|35%|12%|0%
115|34%|12%|0%
110|33%|12%|0%
105|32%|11%|0%
100|31%|11%|0%
95|30%|10%|0%
90|29%|10%|0%
85|28%|10%|0%
80|27%|9%|0%
75|27%|9%|0%
70|26%|8%|0%

Knowing when Dthrow's hitstun reaches 40F is very important for knowing when a dash back j.UAir to follow outward DI will be guaranteed versus an opponent.


Alternative options out of Zelda's Dthrow

WIP. As mentioned, NAir is one option, honestly the BnB option, and easier to land than UAir until high percents.

BAir is also a riskier option that can lead to an immense 20% hit. It works at its best versus outward DI, and is an interesting alternative choice at medium-higher percent. It has merits versus heavy and large opponents, who can even be hit with BAir sweetspotted at KO percents, as well as opponents who simply don't airdodge, expecting one of her guaranteed options only to be surprised by a LK to the face. However it takes a lot of practice, and is reliant on a tiny sweetspot for best results.

Honestly what would the other ones be called? UAir is "Finger Bang." I suppose "hyrule hoo haa" can be used after all for NAir.

----

We need to optimize our meager options as Zeldas, one of which is Dthrow. If we can really be catching KO followups guaranteed off of a grab and DI read, we should be taking that, because we can't sit around all battle praying someone actually gets hit by Usmash or Elevator. (Especially considering the massive amount of "anti-tech" against Elevator, most of which is hella easy to do, even by accident, while the "anti-anti tech" for FW, such as following DI, is freakin' hard to perfect.)

I feel like it's extremely important to recognize here at the end that this requires some actual skill to land. If you tell people about this, MAKE SURE to mention it ain't dumb and easy like hoo-haa, ding-dong (DK?), or Bowser's Uthrow. Because the LAST THING WE NEED is this being misunderstood as silly, uniquely good, or overpowered, and then it gets bopped by Sakurai should patches somehow happen again.

Also we technically had this ever since Dthrow had its endlag reduced in 1.0.4. Patch 1.1.5 just made it a bit better.

somethingsomething will add things and fix other things.

 

[Lorde]

tbh, everyone needs a good finger-banging every once in a while

 

[Cress!]

Dthrow > UAir is a guaranteed combo

Is this really BJN? Or just someone pretending to be BJN so they can lie to us

Zelda board commoner: "ehh, what?? :secretkpop:"

Nevermind, it's BJN.

 

[KlicKlac]

I've been doing the "Finger bang" hoohah dthrow to upair combo many many months before patch 1.15.

I'm surprised there was so much talk of some "new" throw combo after 1.15 came out.

I'm like lol wut been doing that forever now. And people were saying it's now a 50:50 thing, and I'm like lol it's always been a 50:50 thing.

 

[buzzard]

This is an incredibly informative post. Thanks a lot. If you need any help collecting data just say so!

 

[Alacion]

Ending says it all. Sure it's guaranteed, but it's too difficult to do consistently.

Better to make a read on DI and hope for the best I think.

 

[Rickster]

So...if your opponent has a habit of jumping out of hitstun rather than airdodging, the window for Uair should be even easier right? Especially considering the vertical range on it.

Thank you so much for putting in the time and effort to document this! Finger Bang is one if the most debated topics among Zelda mains, so it's great that we finally have some hard data to go off of.

Once everyone figures out Zelda's Finger Bang we should research Dthrow>Bair to throw them off again.

 

[BJN39]

Alacion that is indeed true. And to an extent I agree. It doesn't mean people shouldn't practice it.

I at least won't be called a slouch for my character.

With this we can at least progress past "is it a thing?" And instead tell Zeldas "yes, go practice it." With baseline data included. If we really can use it as a kill setup, is there not merit in practicing it?

Zelda's metagame at least progressed some today, instead of everyone sitting around either spreading misinformation about why Zelda is good, or sitting on our butts saying she's a hopeless mess.

Edit: this could also be nicely relevant for the Ryu MU, where we receive maximum leeway to land UAir.

 

[deechri]

Edit: this could also be nicely relevant for the Ryu MU, where we receive maximum leeway to land UAir.

Just a question, could Ryu not focus attack out of the u-air because FA has frame 1 intangibility??? (not an expert on the Ryu mu tho so i need someone to confirm)

 

[BJN39]

Just a question, could Ryu not focus attack out of the u-air because FA has frame 1 intangibility??? (not an expert on the Ryu mu tho so i need someone to confirm)

Huh, I guess u didn't realize he had frame 1 armor on his FA. I only thought of the frame 2 invincibility on up B. Thanks for clearing that up!

Though, if FA is considered by the game as an attack, then you cannot interrupt hitstun to use it until frame 46-- 5F later than you can airdodge. So after Ryu is taking 45F of hitstun then airdodge becomes the better/quicker option. Until then though it is pretty much an option for a frame 1 "dodge"

Then I guess it would be MU relevant/specific to note that, and that we can then try to counteract it with up smash or NAir. Tbh NAir should technically work out of Dthrow until the point in the MU where UAir works vs him. I'll start making notes on that!

Perhaps I ought to do a quick sweep of characters to see if anyone else had options technically faster than their airdodge.

EDIT: Just thought I'd come back to this and mention that I calculated the numbers, and no character reaches 45F of hitstun until it's too late. With that in mind, a few characters simply do have better options for instant invulnerability than their airdodges. That said, if you read the reactions, you cann punish endlag and freefall ofthese moves.

 

[Lavani]

Specials can't be done out of hitstun until the same point where you'd be able to jump iirc, so FA should be a nonissue unless he DIs away and you're really sloppy on your dash jump timing.

Spent some time on this last night/tonight and it seems like a 1~3f dash is enough to catch DI away. Amusingly the buffed hitbox means it can even hit some characters DIing away without dashing (e.g. Corrin), but it depends on which knockback animation they get.

tfw luigi gets consistently phantomed

 

[BJN39]

Lavani ty for testing that! You are always so helpful with debunking/confirming things.

Comment though; for hitstun <45F or w/e, certain characters with instant invincibility will still be able to use those before 45 frames, right? Because that would still be relevant for percents below the "hitstun cap"s.

Also, what frame is it that you can jump out of hitstun on? I wasn't actually sure wether it was 41, 46, or something else.

 

[Lavani]

Comment though; for hitstun <45F or w/e, certain characters with instant invincibility will still be able to use those before 45 frames, right? Because that would still be relevant for percents below the "hitstun cap"s.

Correct.

Also, what frame is it that you can jump out of hitstun on? I wasn't actually sure wether it was 41, 46, or something else.

"When hitstun ends"

 

[Meru.]

...but I thought everyone knew already... I mean I tested it and it worked and I shared it and I thought everyone had accepted it and ... ;_; ;_; ;_; ;_;

In all seriousness, thanks for the research! I knew it was guaranteed after patch 1.1.5 but I had no idea how guaranteed it was, the timing did seem really strict. Anyway, I have been terrorizing The Netherlands with Finger Bang since the patch so my findings on doing the combo in practice:

• Finger Bang is always 50/50: it's a DI mix-up between outward DI and inward DI. I have really tried my best reacting to DI but it's just not humanly possible. If I react to DI and then input a jump Uair, I will be too late and they will airdodge the Uair. You're going to have to guess their DI. This means you will be have to input dash jump Uair against outward DI OR normal jump Uair against inward DI immediately after Dthrow, on guess and not on reaction. We Sheik now.
• With rage, it seems to become a 50/50 within a 50/50: if you read their DI correctly, you can hit them with double jump Uair if they do not airdodge. Jump is too slow: you will hit them. So you either have to wait for the airdodge and then Uair, or you double jump Uair them if they try to jump out. Needs confirmation.
• Finger Bang can frame trap at mid percents, especially against fastfallers: if they airdodge Uair, they will land on the ground with 22 frames of airdodge landing lag and you can lightning kick them during their lag. For example: I Dthrowed a Sheik and guessed he would DI outwards, so I did a dash jump Uair. Sheik DIed inwards, but because my opponent was pissing in their pants, they airdodged. Dthrow doesn't pop them up too high so the Sheik landed on the ground with airdodge landing lag, which gave Zelda enough time to throw a lightning kick in Sheik's face before landing after doing an Uair. Spoiler Alert: Sheik died. teehee
• At low percents just Nair. When you think Nair is not going to hit anymore, start doing Uair.
• Occasionally you bait out their airdodges and punish them with kicks but jeez I have lost count of how many times I got a sourspot kick >_> buff plz

I want an easy Dthrow Uair like Robin's . Remove 10 frames of ending lag plz it's not broken we're Zelda

 

[BJN39]

...but I thought everyone knew already... I mean I tested it and it worked and I shared it and I thought everyone had accepted it and ... ;_; ;_; ;_; ;_;

In all seriousness, thanks for the research! I knew it was guaranteed after patch 1.1.5 but I had no idea how guaranteed it was, the timing did seem really strict. Anyway, I have been terrorizing The Netherlands with Finger Bang since the patch so my findings on doing the combo in practice:

• Finger Bang is always 50/50: it's a DI mix-up between outward DI and inward DI. I have really tried my best reacting to DI but it's just not humanly possible. If I react to DI and then input a jump Uair, I will be too late and they will airdodge the Uair. You're going to have to guess their DI. This means you will be have to input dash jump Uair against outward DI OR normal jump Uair against inward DI immediately after Dthrow, on guess and not on reaction. We Sheik now.
• With rage, it seems to become a 50/50 within a 50/50: if you read their DI correctly, you can hit them with double jump Uair if they do not airdodge. Jump is too slow: you will hit them. So you either have to wait for the airdodge and then Uair, or you double jump Uair them if they try to jump out. Needs confirmation.
• Finger Bang can frame trap at mid percents, especially against fastfallers: if they airdodge Uair, they will land on the ground with 22 frames of airdodge landing lag and you can lightning kick them during their lag. For example: I Dthrowed a Sheik and guessed he would DI outwards, so I did a dash jump Uair. Sheik DIed inwards, but because my opponent was pissing in their pants, they airdodged. Dthrow doesn't pop them up too high so the Sheik landed on the ground with airdodge landing lag, which gave Zelda enough time to throw a lightning kick in Sheik's face before landing after doing an Uair. Spoiler Alert: Sheik died. teehee
• At low percents just Nair. When you think Nair is not going to hit anymore, start doing Uair.
• Occasionally you bait out their airdodges and punish them with kicks but jeez I have lost count of how many times I got a sourspot kick >_> buff plz

I want an easy Dthrow Uair like Robin's . Remove 10 frames of ending lag plz it's not broken we're Zelda

Your word was not in vain Meru sisT. That was actually one of the reasons I went to work on making a detailed post to show how it was confirmed, etc.

Ironically they already removed almost 10 frames of endlag off Zelda's Dthrow in 1.0.4

Yes, it literally didn't combo before that.

Lavani noted that versus some characters, you actually don't NOT need to dash jump to catch outward DI. It varies character by character, and also varies with difficulty and execution, but it could lend as very useful.

Research so far suggests that to catch some characters' outwards DI without a dash jump, you want to do immediate UAir after the jump, and some characters, like Luigi, can be caught if you delay the UAir by like 1-2 frames, which means you should just try the dash jump on them because that's a little hard. :/

And yeah, at low percent, you have way more time to NAir. And it lasts until around/a little after the point where dash jump UAir becomes guaranteed. Interesting fact is that NAir actually LIKES outward DI, because then it's really easy to land the front hits and get 21%. In addition, it make j.NAir last longer because they don't fly as/too high to get NAir.

Yeah really anti NAir DI is inward DI, which UAir likes

I never ever go for a BAir after Dthrow because until they can make the hitbox actually hit off the z-axis better, it's like, almost always gonna whiff.

I'm probably gonna write some of this in the OP as well actually

 

[Meru.]

Your word was not in vain Meru sisT. That was actually one of the reasons I went to work on making a detailed post to show how it was confirmed, etc.

Ironically they already removed almost 10 frames of endlag off Zelda's Dthrow in 1.0.4

Yes, it literally didn't combo before that.

Lavani noted that versus some characters, you actually don't NOT need to dash jump to catch outward DI. It varies character by character, and also varies with difficulty and execution, but it could lend as very useful.

Research so far suggests that to catch some characters' outwards DI without a dash jump, you want to do immediate UAir after the jump, and some characters, like Luigi, can be caught if you delay the UAir by like 1-2 frames, which means you should just try the dash jump on them because that's a little hard. :/

And yeah, at low percent, you have way more time to NAir. And it lasts until around/a little after the point where dash jump UAir becomes guaranteed. Interesting fact is that NAir actually LIKES outward DI, because then it's really easy to land the front hits and get 21%. In addition, it make j.NAir last longer because they don't fly as/too high to get NAir.

Yeah really anti NAir DI is inward DI, which UAir likes

I never ever go for a BAir after Dthrow because until they can make the hitbox actually hit off the z-axis better, it's like, almost always gonna whiff.

I'm probably gonna write some of this in the OP as well actually

Im very curious on what characters dashing is not needed. Not having to dash makes life a lot easier, perhaps against them Dthrow Uair can actually be done on reaction which is awesome. I guess maybe it's the fat characters? I think ROB and Ganondorf are pretty easy to get it on. I'm not at all sure though, I'll test it whenever I can!

The part about Dthrow to Nair is very true. It's actually also pretty easy to react to their DI since Nair is fast anyway.

Lightning Kicks indeed aren't really good for punishing airdodging opponents and it's really a shame. I guess pulling them down with Nair might be a better option if you're close to the ground, but if you're not and you want to bait and punish their airdodge, there's no other choice than throwing out a lightning kick and praying it will speetspot I guess...

And lol @pre1.04 Dthrow.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

So I came back and wanted to scroll through this.
Where in the Dthrow do we start buffering our dash in the situation of appropriate DI outward? I still flub this all the time.

 

[BJN39]

So I came back and wanted to scroll through this.
Where in the Dthrow do we start buffering our dash in the situation of appropriate DI outward? I still flub this all the time.

My understanding is that you can buffer inputs once you are within 10F of the FAF. ("10 frames of buffer") Lavani could confirm since she would know if it's different for throws/this particular situation.

That's actually important to know. I'll add something about that in the op.

 

[Lavani]

It's still 10 frames in this situation

If you have a good sense of rhythm, I'd recommend flicking to dash 10 frames after you've launched them from dthrow and then jumping+buffering uair another 10 frames later (1~2 frames after you've started a dash).

The visual cue for when you can buffer dash is when Zelda's fully crouched after landing, but that's really hard to see/react to due to the low endlag and move's visual effects, and you still need to time your jump, so I think getting the rhythm down for proper followups is probably the better idea.

 

[Rickster]

I actually have "L" assigned to jump just as a dedicated Finger Bang button.

That's seriously the only thing I use it for, lol. It helps with my timing since the Pro Controller's C-Stick is awkward for me to hit quickly after jumping with the face buttons.

This also makes me struggle more with following outward DI with Nair rather than Uair, funnily enough.

 

[Lorde]

I've had R set to jump for a long time since it makes it way easier to up-b/usmash OOS and to float aerials with Peach.

Setting one of the trigger buttons to jump is great because you don't really need 2 buttons for shield and it makes a lot of things easier to do.

 

[Rickster]

Spoiler

HmmmT

 

[Lord Renning]

I claw grip and c stick up to hit finger bangs at low percents where it's all strict and frame perfect.

 

[BJN39]

In other news, I hope anyone that has already read the OP before has come back and seen the info that has been added since the post was first made. I hope to have as much information covered on Finger Bang as I can.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ok so it's hard for me to comprehend all of this, but from what I am mainly getting, and please correct me if need be,
It's generally garunteed as long as Zelda doesn't have too much rage, even if they DI away?
It seems to be easier on some characters then others as well?
I don't have time to re-read right now, but is there anything else to know?
Besides that it needs near frame perfect timing and getting it consistently can be difficult(though at this point shouldn't be too, too much trouble right?)

 

[BJN39]

Ok so it's hard for me to comprehend all of this, but from what I am mainly getting, and please correct me if need be,
It's generally garunteed as long as Zelda doesn't have too much rage, even if they DI away?
It seems to be easier on some characters then others as well?
I don't have time to re-read right now, but is there anything else to know?
Besides that it needs near frame perfect timing and getting it consistently can be difficult(though at this point shouldn't be too, too much trouble right?)

Sounds like you've pretty much got it :^)

Rage just makes the KB become really high much quicker. Zelda can cover each DI option, but must read which direction the target goes, and it's gotta be quick.

I think it could be hard to get consistently. Especially if your opponent actually mixes up their DI. But on characters with big hurtboxes and or certain KB animations, the window gets easier as percent goes up even vs outward DI. Also rage will make the window immediately bigger, because hitstun is directly related to KB (which will be higher at low percents w/rage)

 

[evmaxy54]

I want an easy Dthrow Uair like Robin's . Remove 10 frames of ending lag plz it's not broken we're Zelda

It is easy LMAO I love you gurl but seriosuly git gud

 

[Meru.]

It is easy LMAO I love you gurl but seriosuly git gud

guuurl it's super easy to execute but reacting correctly to the opponent's DI fast enough is like impossible. Doing it on reaction takes more time since I have to watch first where they go and then I have to make the decision whether to dash (against DI out) or whether to only jump (DI in). I have given up on trying to do it on reaction so Im just guessing which way they go now lol.

Anyone here that can follow DI on reaction?

 

[evmaxy54]

guuurl it's super easy to execute but reacting correctly to the opponent's DI fast enough is like impossible. Doing it on reaction takes more time since I have to watch first where they go and then I have to make the decision whether to dash (against DI out) or whether to only jump (DI in). I have given up on trying to do it on reaction so Im just guessing which way they go now lol.

Anyone here that can follow DI on reaction?

I would say reacting to it is like reacting to Melee Falcon's Dthrow to Knee. Needs consistent practice at it but it's very much doable.

I do wonder though if we can make even more optimal combos than Dthrow > Uair/Bair at low %s tho

 

[BJN39]

I do wonder though if we can make even more optimal combos than Dthrow > Uair/Bair at low %s tho

Probably. Though I feel a lot of her "combo" attacks (IDK, Dtilt, Utilt, and...NAir, I guess?) have hitstun just dancing on "unreliable." They start having true safe hitstun a little after 0% on everyone bar maybe Jiggs (Depending) and then are still unable to do that for long.

If something into FF NAir were a thing at low percents, Zelda would be scary. As it is, a low percent airdodge read is a pretty silly decision to make in most cases when NAir/UAir are guaranteed and guarantee damage. Assuming you DO read a low percent Dthrow airdodge and get FF NAir, you are likely facing away, and you lose 1~2F on all followups. Considering at that some percent, Dtilt > Grab is not anywhere near airtight, then you have to hope on a mixup for your turn grab. OKAY I'm just rambling.

Spoiler: Dtilt rant

Tbh I've gone over many different calcs on a good way to edit the KB of Dtilt to make it a better combo move, but: with more hitstun means more KB, which means Dtilt stops the low KB sooner, unless the KBG is lowered enough. Either way the edits are a delicate balance.

Varying BKB around 30-35 and KBG around 90-100 gives a pretty good balance when paired with a 2% damage increase. Around these numbers, Dtilt can have roughly matching KO power as it does now (While not really relevant, it doesn't really need to be given far more KO KB than before.) as well as keeping the KB 'similar.' At 0%, 30b/95g 7.5dmg will be a -1 on hit. (Compared to current 20b/120g 5.5dmg being -4 on hit.) While -1 doesn't sound very impressive, they opponent is knocked a very short distance, they're almost even at 0%, which is still really good for Zelda. Shielding and spotdodge alone can become mixups here, and hitting with Dtilt doesn't away you someone's fast NAir response. By just a bit more percent, the advantage quickly rises, and sooner becomes Dtilt > Dtilt or Dtilt > Utilt weather.

The growth reduction offsets how soon it will knock too far. It will have more hitstun and thus KB a bit sooner, but this also means Dtilt > UAir happens a bit sooner and longer.

An alternative is something like 35b/90g, which will bring it to +1 at 0%, but it will knock out of range of every followup a bit sooner. I personally became contented with 30b/95g. It does the trick.

What is disappointing is that this still doesn't do giant leaps for the move as a combo move. It makes it feel more "robust," but she doesn't necessarily gain things. (Not that it's necessary for her to gain things. I know for a fact that if UAir or Dthrow buffs aren't handled carefully, Finger Bang can become insane, which is a reason a strayed away from suggesting UAir KB buffs.)

The simplest way to add ore options from Dtilt quick is an endlag reduction. But I personally don't just wanna jump on "reduce the endlag of literally every one of Zelda's attacks," when there are other ways to make Zelda's moves function, and Dtilt seems like we're really going over when we resort to having to reduce even ITS endlag. Though if you ask me for a Zelda bufflist you will see that I outline several frame data buffs, some of which do make moves combo/combo better. I'd rather stick with a good damage gift and KB edits to make it more reliable.

An interesting idea to consider though would be raising Dtilt's angle every so slightly, like to 85, so that it puts opponents in a more disadvantaged state. It would make DIing away less neutering for aerial followups later.

I digress. If anyone actually wants to hear how I spend my free time researching how these things would work for her, there's a better place elsewhere.

I actually wouldn't touch Utilt as far as KBs. It already does fine tbh. the tl;dr is that it's already pretty good stat-wise versus other SSB4 combo utilts, and it can do things, especially behind. Though increasing the hit duration by 2F should just happen. If you've looked at Furil's work, you've seen how the hitbox vanishes way before her arc is over AND before the magic sparkle even disappears. SMH.

Tl;dr for the non-spoiler post: #ZeldaPessimism. But also Dthrow is important because it actually has really high and useful hitstun even at 0%. Even if it is attached to a disappointing grab like Zelda's.

 

[Lord Renning]

guuurl it's super easy to execute but reacting correctly to the opponent's DI fast enough is like impossible. Doing it on reaction takes more time since I have to watch first where they go and then I have to make the decision whether to dash (against DI out) or whether to only jump (DI in). I have given up on trying to do it on reaction so Im just guessing which way they go now lol.

Anyone here that can follow DI on reaction?

It's the kind of thing you have to do dozens if not hundreds of times to pick up and react to the 1 degree variations of them popping off the ground. Possible, but seriously something you'd need to practice with a dummy friend doing random DI, or just playing loads and loads of matches. I've done it sometimes, when I'm in a good flow and in practice with Zelda, so I know it's possible, but when my stars aren't aligned I feel like you do.

 

[Meru.]

I would say reacting to it is like reacting to Melee Falcon's Dthrow to Knee. Needs consistent practice at it but it's very much doable.

I do wonder though if we can make even more optimal combos than Dthrow > Uair/Bair at low %s tho

It's the kind of thing you have to do dozens if not hundreds of times to pick up and react to the 1 degree variations of them popping off the ground. Possible, but seriously something you'd need to practice with a dummy friend doing random DI, or just playing loads and loads of matches. I've done it sometimes, when I'm in a good flow and in practice with Zelda, so I know it's possible, but when my stars aren't aligned I feel like you do.

Alright then, in that case I'll go back to my original plan and practice doing it on reaction until I can get it consistently. Even if they airdodge it you can still Bair fastfallers in the face sometimes so I guess it's worth it

 

[Jimster]

It got me thinking, finger bang is accurate but it doesn't sound as catchy as ding dong or beep bop or hoo hah, why don't we call it slam & bang? I mean we slam them on the ground and then we bang them

 

[Rion]

I realized this gif could be useful as a visual example of using the dashstep to catch outward DI on the Dthrow > Uair~

 

[KlicKlac]

I realized this gif could be useful as a visual example of using the dashstep to catch outward DI on the Dthrow > Uair~

I'll show this to my friend who wants to pick up Zelda, thanks.

 

[BJN39]

I realized this gif could be useful as a visual example of using the dashstep to catch outward DI on the Dthrow > Uair~

I might just add this right now! Thanks Rion!

Also now we at least have a quick reference to convince the nonbelievers~

 

[Meru.]

Bump

You know the trail of smoke characters leave when they get launched? If you want to follow DI on Finger Bang more consistently, look at this trail of smoke instead of the character youre throwing. Its much easier to react to!

 

[Rickster]

At some point I'd like to experiment with Dthrow>Bair. I get this pretty easily on people who try and DI away, especially fast fallers, so I do believe it's a real combo. Fast fallers may be vulnerable at kill % as well...

Also Nairo spammed it against a Charizard at that low tier tournament he went to lol

 

[BJN39]

I swear Nairo can make so much look like true combos. The Zard slaying was gruesome lol

I'm sure it is true on some people. You have to get a bit higher than other aerials to hit it right, but it's got the same hitframe as NAir which has an easy leeway window compared to UAir. It's at least a thing on large-framed characters for sure.

I think the thing (well two things) I struggle with when it come to BAir follow ups is well, one, the spacing. You gotta follow DI and move Zelda right to hit with the tiny hitbox. (Still don't know how FAiress and Nairo do it...well, I guess the first step is actually trying a BAir, which I don't secretkpop) but it's that combined with the need to delay the usage of the aerial. You obviously can't BAir immediately or it'll fail, but that might just give them enough time to AD if you're too slow. TBH I'mma just go practice and stop being a scrub.

There isn't really much to talk about data-wise when it comes to doing a BAir follow up, because it's so quirky as to who and when it can hit, so it's kind of like, "theoretical data goes here." Some stuff here about rage and hitstun caps can at least stand as basic guidelines. Aside that it's just knowing how it has to be executed (IE, some of what I mentioned above)

 

[Meru.]

I'd like to experiment more with Dthrow to Bair as well, but does it actually kill? At low percent I little reason to use Bair over Nair. Aside from Nair being much easier, it has considerably less ending lag and weaker knockback, making follow-ups much easier while also dealing good damage (albeit less than Bair).

At percents where Uair doesnt kill but Bair would I'd like to use it though if it is an actual combo. It seems like a pretty powerful finisher.