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Your Personal Tier Lists. Anyone can input!

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The_Bookworm

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I got my profile pic at last! I decided to start a heated thread on your personal tier lists for any smash game (and any smash fan games like RoA, SSF2, Brawl-, etc.). Be sure to be polite and make sure you can back your placements. I will list my personal SSBM, SSBB, and SSB4 lists momentarily.

Character Icon Table of Contents:
SSB- :mario64: :luigi64: :dk64: :link64: :yoshi64: :samus64: :fox64: :kirby64: :ness64: :pikachu64: :jigglypuff64: :falcon64:

SSBM- :mariomelee: :luigimelee: :drmario: :peachmelee: :bowsermelee: :yoshimelee: :dkmelee: :falconmelee: :foxmelee: :falcomelee: :nessmelee: :icsmelee: :kirbymelee: :samusmelee: :zeldamelee: :sheikmelee: :linkmelee: :younglinkmelee: :ganondorfmelee: :pikachumelee: :jigglypuffmelee: :pichumelee: :mewtwomelee: :gawmelee: :marthmelee: :roymelee:

SSBB- :mario2: :luigi2: :peach: :bowser2: :dk2: :diddy: :yoshi2: :wario: :link2: :zelda: :sheik: :ganondorf: :toonlink: :samus2: :zerosuitsamus: :pit: :popo: :rob: :kirby2: :metaknight: :dedede: :olimar: :fox: :falco: :wolf: :falcon: :pikachu2: :jigglypuff: :pt: :lucario: :marth: :ike: :ness2: :lucas: :gw: :snake: :sonic:

PM- :roypm: :mewtwopm: :squirtle: :ivysaur: :charizard:

SSB4- :4mario: :4luigi: :4peach: :4bowser: :4yoshi: :rosalina: :4bowserjr: :4drmario: :4wario: :4dk: :4diddy: :4gaw: :4littlemac: :4link: :4zelda: :4sheik: :4ganondorf: :4tlink: :4samus: :4zss: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4palutena: :4marth: :4lucina: :4myfriends: :4robinm: :4feroy: :4corrin: :4corrinf: :4duckhunt: :4kirby: :4metaknight: :4dedede: :4fox: :4falco: :4pikachu: :4jigglypuff: :4mewtwo: :4charizard: :4lucario: :4greninja: :4rob: :4ness: :4lucas: :4falcon: :4villager: :4olimar: :4wiifit: :4shulk: :4pacman: :4megaman: :4sonic: :4ryu: :4cloud: :4bayonetta: :4miibrawl: :4miigun: :4miisword:
 
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The_Bookworm

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No one is replying... R.I.P.
Well I will post my personal SSBM, SSBB, and SSB4 lists. I like to use the offical lists as a base for mine, for they, for the most part, accurately describes each game's metagame (SSB4 at a lesser extent). You will many similarities with the official lists with mine. I will answer any of your questions about any placement. Now lets begin with Melee [NTSC]:

*Top*
SS :foxmelee:
S :falcomelee: :marthmelee: :sheikmelee:
*High*
A :jigglypuffmelee: :peachmelee: :falconmelee: :icsmelee:
*Upper Middle*
B :samusmelee: :pikachumelee: :luigimelee: :yoshimelee:
C :ganondorfmelee: :drmario:
*Lower Middle*
D :mariomelee: :younglinkmelee: :dkmelee:
E :linkmelee: :gawmelee:
*Low*
F :mewtwomelee: :roymelee: :nessmelee:
*Bottom*
G :zeldamelee: :kirbymelee: :bowsermelee: :pichumelee:

Notes:
The F and G tier characters are theoretically equally terrible. The use of F and G tiers are used to separate the bad characters with the candidates for the absolute worst character in the game.

Now character specific:
:kirbymelee: No longer ranked as the worst, due to obtaining better results than a few characters above him. His glaring weaknesses, however, only allowed him to rise above Pichu and Bowser.

:luigimelee: He, alongside Yoshi, has proven to be capable in the current metagame to be around Samus’s level. This rise is thanks to his representation and results being stronger than before, especially in comparison to Dr. Mario and Yoshi. He has noteable amount of players represented in the Melee 2017 Rankings as well.

:ganondorfmelee: His strengths and matchups are noticeably stronger than the characters ranked below him on the official E-tier. As his mains continue to obtain good results, such as Kage’s 5th at Canada Cup 2017 and 2nd in Dreamhack Montreal, allowed him to rise above Mario’s tier (now D-tier).

:gawmelee: While he technically didn’t rise from his spot, he is now at the bottom of Mid-Low thanks to recent innovations to his metagame: namely “possessing some useable moves in comparison to characters below him”. This position is further supported by Qerb’s 13th placing at Bad Moon Rising 2, defeating La Luna in the process.

:drmario: Suffering the largest drop on the list, which is because of his dwindling representation and results, now being the gatekeeper of semi-viable characters. His strengths above Mario and characters below him, makes him a pure mid-tier though.

:pichumelee: It is now ranked as the worst character. Despite possessing a few utility moves, its weaknesses are overwhelming. It possesses the worst matchup spread in the game (with Bowser being the second worst). Taken from Smashwiki: “Pichu has also failed to make an impact on any significant tournaments for several years, with none of the top 96 placers of any major Melee tournament being dedicated Pichu players, and its only players are either inactive or have better characters to choose from.”
 
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The_Bookworm

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Btw, I don't really have much opinion on 64's and PM's tier lists, since I am not too familiar with those two metagames.
Brawl is coming up soon.
 

P!NkN!Nj@

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Sep 22, 2017
Messages
5
I think the smash 64 tier list should go in the following order:

Top: Pikachu, Kirby

High: Falcon, Yoshi/Fox (tied)

Mid: Jigglypuff/Mario (another tie), Samus

Low: DK, Ness, Link, Luigi

Yeah, it’s pretty similar to the recent ssb tier list.
 

The_Bookworm

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Yay! Someone finally notices this thread! Your 64 tier list is good, but I am a bit confused on Samus's placement.
Anyways, my Brawl Tier List:

*Top*

SS:metaknight:
S :popo:
A :olimar::diddy::snake::marth::falco:
*High*
B :pikachu2::zerosuitsamus::wario::dedede::lucario::toonlink::wolf:
*Middle*
C :fox::gw::pit::rob::peach:
D :dk2::kirby2::sonic::ike::sheik::ness2::lucas:
E :yoshi2::luigi2::pt:
*Low*
F :mario2::samus2::bowser2::falcon::link2:
*Bottom*
G :jigglypuff::zelda::ganondorf:

Notes:
The F and G tier characters are theoretically equally terrible. The use of F and G tiers are used to separate the bad characters with the candidates for the absolute worst character in the game.

Now character specific:
:lucas: Rose just right below Ness, thanks to the increase in representation and results. This is by far the largest increase in the list.

:yoshi2: With his glaring shield issues holding him back from the defensive focused Brawl meta, he dropped one spot to E-tier.

:wolf: Due to possessing an abnormal amount of results, while holding his own against Meta Knight, he joins high tier alongside the official list’s C+ tier.

:dedede: Rose above Lucario thanks to his dominating matchups against characters below him, although his poor matchups against Meta Knight and Ice Climbers continue to hold him back.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Now it is time for my personal SSB4 tier list. It has more changes in comparison to the SSBM and SSBB tier lists. I will only note the larger changes.

*Top*
S :4bayonetta::4cloud:
A+ :4diddy::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4fox::4zss:
A- :4mario::4mewtwo::4marth::4ryu:
*High*
B :4corrin::4lucina::4metaknight::4pikachu::4luigi::4peach:
C+ :4falcon::4lucario::4olimar::4dk:
C- (:4tlink::4greninja::4villager::4megaman::4ness:):4bowser:
*Middle*
D :4duckhunt::4link:(:4pit::4darkpit:):4yoshi::4lucas::4samus:
E+ :4shulk::4rob::4robinm::4myfriends::4gaw:
E- :4wario::4feroy::4charizard:
*Low*
F :4littlemac::4pacman::4palutena::4falco::4bowserjr::4wiifit:(:4drmario::4kirby:)
G :4ganondorf::4dedede::4miigun::4zelda::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:

Notes:
The placements of the characters in C- is volatile. The order shown in the parenthesis is the current order of characters, but it can change order anytime something happens. It can be considered a five-way tie, but it is way too large.

Character Specific:
:4ganondorf: Owning to Ganondorf’s better results and representation (such as Adom’s 9th placement on Syndicate 2017) and Dedede’s declining perspective, Ganondorf is ranked as the better super heavyweight.

:4diddy:With ZeRo recently in an indefinite hiatus, Diddy’s results had dropped since then. Diddy remains a top 5 character, but has dropped out of S-tier as a result.

:4greninja: Recently, an explosion of Greninja's results started to appear in tournaments, but by then voting for its official tier placement was already done. This increase is a reflection of this.

:4lucario: Despite Tsu-‘s good performances with Lucario, it’s high risk, high reward playstyle makes him a bit too risky and contentious in competitive play, dropping him to 20th at the newly established C+ tier. The performances of Tsu- have also become inconsistent, placing at top 18 at some tournaments, and getting 33rd or even 49th at others.

:4samus: Considering her metagame advancements and her strengths in comparison to Shulk, she rose to 35th above Shulk.

:4lucas: His rather large fanbase and theory of the character seems to be the leading factor to his rise to high tier in the official list. His performances at tournaments, however, is average at best, as he never got a strong tournament placing ever since Taiheita's 17th at Super Smash Con 2016, and his results and representation is inferior to his counterpart and fellow mid-tier characters like Duck Hunt and Link. Taiheita, while performed very strong in 2016, struggles to keep up with his inconsistent attendance and results in 2017. This, combined with is glaring weaknesses, caused him to get the largest drop on the list.

:4bowser: He possesses merely average results outside of Nairo’s counterpick, with solo Bowser players making not as much impact in tournaments, especially in comparison to DK. In comparison to DK, Bowser has more landing options (though still laggy and predictable) and a larger grab range, but is much more reliant on grabs and his defense game is bad for a high tier character. With Nairo not using Bowser as often anymore in tournament, he dropped to the bottom of high tier, still very respectable.

As usual, drop any concerns questions about it and don't be afraid to drop your own.
 
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SmolNozomi

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upload_2018-2-3_15-1-2.png

Note: My list was found just about to be incinerated, so take this as a grain of salt
 

JustCallMeJon

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I saw this post recently so I'll probably release my personal tier lists in both Melee and Smash 4

Melee:

Viable Tier
S: :foxmelee:
A::falcomelee::marthmelee::sheikmelee::jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:
B::falconmelee::icsmelee::samusmelee::pikachumelee:
Semi-Viable Tier
C::yoshimelee::luigimelee::drmario::ganondorfmelee:
D::younglinkmelee::mariomelee::dkmelee::linkmelee::gawmelee:
Un-Viable Tier
E::mewtwomelee::nessmelee::pichumelee::roymelee:
F::kirbymelee::zeldamelee::bowsermelee:




Smash 4:

Upper Top Tier:
S: :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4diddy:
Middle Top Tier:
A+: :4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4fox::4sonic:
Borderline Top Tier: (Can Be High Tier If Debatable)
A-::4mewtwo::4mario:(:4marth:=:4lucina:)*

Upper-High Tier:
B+::4corrinf::4pikachu::4ryu::4luigi::4peach:
Middle-High Tier:
B::4metaknight::4falcon::4olimar::4lucario::4dk::4tlink:
Borderline High Tier: (Can Be Upper-Middle If Debatable)
B-::4greninja::4bowser::4villager:(:4ness:/:4megaman:)**

Upper-Middle Tier:
C+::4duckhunt::4lucas::4samus::4rob::4link:
Middle-Tier:
C::4yoshi::4shulk:(:4pit:=:4darkpit:)*:4robinm::4gaw::4myfriends:
Lower-Middle Tier: (Can Be Low Tier If Debatable)
C-::4charizard::4palutena::4wario::4feroy::4littlemac:(:4bowserjr:/:4pacman:)**:4falco:

Upper-Low Tier:
D+::4zelda:(:4miigun:***):4drmario::4kirby:
Middle-Low Tier:
D: (:4miisword:***):4wiifit::4dedede:
Basically Low Tier:
D-::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:(:4miibrawl:***)

* Both Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit are clones, meaning that they have the same moveset between each other with slight differences. Both can be put into one.
**Interchangeable By Any Means.
***No Customs, just 1,1,1,1

Character Notes:
:4diddy:: ZeRo retiring doesn't truly mean that Diddy Kong is going to drop. Representation-wise, rising stars such as MVD, dyr, and Shoyo James showed that Diddy Kong CAN do stuff. Result wise, sure ZeRo definitely carries the Diddy meta but MVD has shown some stuff with Diddy especially in Big House and GENESIS 5. MU wise, he received one of the better MU spreads in the game. His MU is not top 3 though (He struggles against lower-tiered characters such as Pac-Man and Mega Man while the top 2 doesn't have any bad lower-tiered MUs.) but he can easily overcome the bad-MUs by his fantastic neutral game.

:4ryu:: Ryu is an interesting character for me. One, he has great potential. He has god-like combo game and damage-input. But he has some holes to lead people to question Ryu in the current meta-game. Ryu's results, while having fantastic peaks in tournaments, is too inconsistent for being a top tier. Trela did well, but he went inactive. Locus made a fantastic start in later-2016 and first half of 2017 by applying fantastic results to major tournaments (placing top 8 in Civil War), however, he dropped significantly in the second half of 2017 by only applying mediocre results. Darkshad made a good performance in 2017 but he is inconsistent with it and had random losses. Match-up wise: He's good but it wasn't too good to be a top tier though. He is short-ranged and struggles against characters with multi-hit hitboxes and big swords such as Marth and Sonic. He made evens against lower-tiered characters such as Samus and Ness and had mostly losing MUs against the top tiers. He can be top-tiered once again but with inconsistent results and representation alongside his MU being high-tier, it's safe to say that he is high tier for now.

:4ness:/:4lucas:: Ness and Lucas are potent characters in the current meta, however, they struggle with their glaring weaknesses. Ness has a terrible recovery and Lucas is poor at approaching opponents and getting in the lead. In advantage state, both can do exceptionally well since both characters have fantastic combo game and damage input (Ness is more consistent with it though). I do believe that these characters are not garbage unlike most people and that they can do well in tournaments.

:4lucas:: However, in the current meta, people push too hard towards Lucas and receive regional bias towards him. People think of Lucas mains as Taiheita copy-cats and they could do footstool combos efficiently (Not true). People overthink Lucas's strength and overlook his weaknesses too much though. It can't be said when you have a character that people claims that it has potential yet doesn't receive any notable wins and placings at all outside of one point. Taiheita, while performed very strong in 2016, struggles to keep up with his inconsistent attendance and results in 2017. Taiheita has some high-highs (such as his top 8 placings in every Karisuma ever), he has some low-lows (65th at Umebura 26, 49th Umebura Japan Major 2017, 49th at Sumabato 19, 17th at Sumabato 15, and 25th at Sumabato 21.). From this, he dropped from 9th to 15th to 16th to 28th in Japan Rankings. This means that Japan has kept up from the Lucas meta; Lucas' results in Japan began to flicker. In internationally, he performs worse. Outside of Mekos, rarely any Lucas mains showed up in major tournaments. Mekos, while a strong Lucas player, is very inconsistent in each tournament he showed up in 2017. Mekos has one good win against Nairo, he hadn't made that peak ever since. Recently, Aghasama, the second-best Lucas, enter his first major tournament ever in the US, which is GENESIS 5, but he drowned. Comparing to the second-best Ness at the time, Gackt, he placed 17th in his first major tournament ever in the US by beating ANTi, Locus, and Mistake at the Big House 7. Lucas's MUs, while having better MUs against higher tiers than Ness, struggles against lower tiers even more than Ness. However, I'm not too harsh with Lucas, it's just that he is a bit-overrated at times and people overlook his weaknesses too much. Placing him 29th is a good-spot to me though since he is still a potent character with a fantastic grab game.

inb4 Trash talk here: Please be nice and please note that this is my opinion. None of it matters to you if you disagree with my list. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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I saw this post recently so I'll probably release my personal tier lists in both Melee and Smash 4

Melee:

Viable Tier
S: :foxmelee:
A::falcomelee::marthmelee::sheikmelee::jigglypuffmelee::peachmelee:
B::falconmelee::icsmelee::samusmelee::pikachumelee:
Semi-Viable Tier
C::yoshimelee::luigimelee::drmario::ganondorfmelee:
D::younglinkmelee::mariomelee::dkmelee::linkmelee::gawmelee:
Un-Viable Tier
E::mewtwomelee::nessmelee::pichumelee::roymelee:
F::kirbymelee::zeldamelee::bowsermelee:




Smash 4:

Upper Top Tier:
S: :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4diddy:
Middle Top Tier:
A+: :4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4fox::4sonic:
Borderline Top Tier: (Can Be High Tier If Debatable)
A-::4mewtwo::4mario:(:4marth:=:4lucina:)*

Upper-High Tier:
B+::4corrinf::4pikachu::4ryu::4luigi::4peach:
Middle-High Tier:
B::4metaknight::4falcon::4olimar::4lucario::4dk::4tlink:
Borderline High Tier: (Can Be Upper-Middle If Debatable)
B-::4greninja::4bowser::4villager:(:4ness:/:4megaman:)**

Upper-Middle Tier:
C+::4duckhunt::4lucas::4samus::4rob::4link:
Middle-Tier:
C::4yoshi::4shulk:(:4pit:=:4darkpit:)*:4robinm::4gaw::4charizard:
Lower-Middle Tier: (Can Be Low Tier If Debatable)
C-::4palutena::4myfriends::4wario::4feroy::4littlemac:(:4bowserjr:/:4pacman:)**:4falco:

Upper-Low Tier:
D+::4zelda:(:4miigun:***):4drmario::4kirby:
Middle-Low Tier:
D: (:4miisword:***):4wiifit::4dedede:
Basically Low Tier:
D-::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff:(:4miibrawl:***)

* Both Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit are clones, meaning that they have the same moveset between each other with slight differences. Both can be put into one.
**Interchangeable By Any Means.
***No Customs, just 1,1,1,1
Good list!
I don't think Marth and Lucina should be ranked as the same. While her moveset is safer overall compared to Marth's thanks to her attacks having consistent knockback, low hitlag modifiers, and slightly higher shieldstun at close range, Lucina's attacks are more punishable than Marth's if not spaced well because of Marth benefiting from his tipper's higher shieldstun. She must play more defensively in order to utilize her moveset to the fullest, namely her moves' consistently high knockback, though without getting the extra reward Marth obtains by doing so. Despite their consistent power, Lucina's strongest KOing options are also weaker than Marth's tippered attacks, preventing her from gaining an advantage by scoring early KOs. Lastly, her higher overall knockback removes several noteworthy sourspotted combos that Marth possesses at high percentages, while her unique KO set-ups are riskier than his.
I feel like people use her as a secondary more than Marth is because, like Mario and Cloud, she has a low learning curve thanks to her straightforward playstyle. I think her placing in the official list is accurate.
I am just going to nitpick on a few minor things. One: that low tier looks very small. Two: Ryu is no longer top tier? Three: Ike is worst than Palutena and Charizard?
 
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JustCallMeJon

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Good list!
I don't think Marth and Lucina should be ranked as the same. While her moveset is safer overall compared to Marth's thanks to her attacks having consistent knockback, low hitlag modifiers, and slightly higher shieldstun at close range, Lucina's attacks are more punishable than Marth's if not spaced well because of Marth benefiting from his tipper's higher shieldstun. She must play more defensively in order to utilize her moveset to the fullest, namely her moves' consistently high knockback, though without getting the extra reward Marth obtains by doing so. Despite their consistent power, Lucina's strongest KOing options are also weaker than Marth's tippered attacks, preventing her from gaining an advantage by scoring early KOs. Lastly, her higher overall knockback removes several noteworthy sourspotted combos that Marth possesses at high percentages, while her unique KO set-ups are riskier than his.
I feel like people use her as a secondary more than Marth is because, like Mario and Cloud, she has a low learning curve thanks to her straightforward playstyle. I think her placing in the official list is accurate.
I am just going to nitpick on a few minor things. One: that low tier looks very small. Two: Ryu is no longer top tier? Three: Ike is worst than Palutena and Charizard?
This is why I said C- could be both low-tier and middle tier at the same time. If you put C- tier as low tier, it will be fine by me.

Kinda think about it, Ike was a little too low though imo. I need to change that lol.
 

Frihetsanka

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I don't think Marth and Lucina should be ranked as the same.
Marth and Lucina have essentially the same matchup chart. If you agree with this, then they should be next to each other. If you disagree, then I'd like to know which significant MUs Marth does noticeable better in than Lucina.

How is Marth top tier and better than Corrin, anyway? Corrin has a much better MU spread than Marth, and arguably better solo results. Cosmos does better with Corrin than any Marth main with Marth. If it weren't for MkLeo, I don't think we'd see Marth in top 12 in many tier lists. Marth is somewhat overrated (he's still top 15 though).

Two: Ryu is no longer top tier?
Ryu has always been a borderline case. I don't think he's top tier either, though. Too many -1 MUs vs relevant characters and not enough winning MUs against relevant characters. I might put him a bit higher than #15, but still not top tier.
 

The_Bookworm

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Marth and Lucina have essentially the same matchup chart. If you agree with this, then they should be next to each other. If you disagree, then I'd like to know which significant MUs Marth does noticeable better in than Lucina.

How is Marth top tier and better than Corrin, anyway? Corrin has a much better MU spread than Marth, and arguably better solo results. Cosmos does better with Corrin than any Marth main with Marth. If it weren't for MkLeo, I don't think we'd see Marth in top 12 in many tier lists. Marth is somewhat overrated (he's still top 15 though).

Ryu has always been a borderline case. I don't think he's top tier either, though. Too many -1 MUs vs relevant characters and not enough winning MUs against relevant characters. I might put him a bit higher than #15, but still not top tier.
The placements of Marth, Corrin, Lucina, and Ryu are probably going to float all over the place as 2018 goes on. I will call those four "borderline" characters.

:4lucas:: However, in the current meta, people push too hard towards Lucas and receive regional bias towards him. People think of Lucas mains as Taiheita copy-cats and they could do footstool combos efficiently (Not true). People overthink Lucas's strength and overlook his weaknesses too much though. It can't be said when you have a character that people claims that it has potential yet doesn't receive any notable wins and placings at all outside of one point. Taiheita, while performed very strong in 2016, struggles to keep up with his inconsistent attendance and results in 2017. Taiheita has some high-highs (such as his top 8 placings in every Karisuma ever), he has some low-lows (65th at Umebura 26, 49th Umebura Japan Major 2017, 49th at Sumabato 19, 17th at Sumabato 15, and 25th at Sumabato 21.). From this, he dropped from 9th to 15th to 16th to 28th in Japan Rankings. This means that Japan has kept up from the Lucas meta; Lucas' results in Japan began to flicker. In internationally, he performs worse. Outside of Mekos, rarely any Lucas mains showed up in major tournaments. Mekos, while a strong Lucas player, is very inconsistent in each tournament he showed up in 2017. Mekos has one good win against Nairo, he hadn't made that peak ever since. Recently, Aghasama, the second-best Lucas, enter his first major tournament ever in the US, which is GENESIS 5, but he drowned. Comparing to the second-best Ness at the time, Gackt, he placed 17th in his first major tournament ever in the US by beating ANTi, Locus, and Mistake at the Big House 7. Lucas's MUs, while having better MUs against higher tiers than Ness, struggles against lower tiers even more than Ness. However, I'm not too harsh with Lucas, it's just that he is a bit-overrated at times and people overlook his weaknesses too much. Placing him 29th is a good-spot to me though since he is still a potent character with a fantastic grab game.
Actually, you placed him at 30th. The sad part about Taiheita's performance in 2017 and 2018 so far, is that Karisuma tournaments are pretty much the equalvalent of MSM tournaments here in America (a.k.a. locals).
 
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JustCallMeJon

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The placements of Marth, Corrin, Lucina, and Ryu are probably going to float all over the place as 2018 goes on. I will call those four "borderline" characters.


Actually, you placed him at 30th. The sad part about Taiheita's performance in 2017 and 2018 so far, is that Karisuma tournaments are pretty much the equalvalent of MSM tournaments here in America (a.k.a. locals).
Oh...welp..
 

Frihetsanka

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Frihetsanka

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Seems pretty clear to me.

S-tier is top tier. A tier is also top tier. B tier is high tier. C tier is high-mid. D is mid tier, E is low-mid, F and G are low tier. The only character in C tier that has the potential to be high tier is Greninja imo (and maybe Olimar), the rest are high-mid tier and best (and I'd probably drop a few of them to regular mid tier, ie D-tier).
 

SwagGuy99

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SSB4 Tier (No Customs)
SS = Overpowered
S+ - A+ = Top Tier
A- - B- = High Tier
C+ - D+ = Mid Tier
D- - E- = Low Tier
F+ - F- = Bottom Tier
G = Unusable
SS
:4cloud:
S+ :4bayonetta::4sonic::rosalina::4diddy::4mario::4sheik::4zss::4fox::4mewtwo:
S- :4marth::4luigi::4lucina::4pikachu::4corrin:
A+:4ryu::4metaknight::4tlink:
A- :4peach::4lucario::4bowser::4villager:
B+:4falcon::4olimar::4dk::4megaman:
B-:4greninja::4yoshi::4lucas:
C+:4ness::4darkpit::4pit::4rob::4duckhunt::4link:
C-:4gaw::4robinm::4shulk:
D+:4wario::4drmario::4pacman::4feroy::4samus:
D- :4palutena::4kirby::4falco::4myfriends:
E+:4charizard::4bowserjr:
E-:4littlemac::4zelda::4miigun:
F+:4wiifit::4ganondorf:
F-:4dedede::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl:
G:4miisword:


My thoughts:

Cloud at SS - Cloud is (in my opinion) better than Bayonetta because Cloud has the limit breaker and is more mobile and therefore, less susceptible to projectile heavy characters like Toon Link. He also is the worst matchup for several characters high in the tier lists like Luigi and Toon Link.

Shiek at #7 - Every character above Shiek, I feel, can deal against the other top tiers and high tiers better than her.

Luigi at 11 - Luigi has a great recovery, great frame data, great combo potential and is better than Ryu, Meta Knight and Toon Link in most ways. The reson he isn't higher is due to his poor mobility which allows him to be comboed easier by several characters above him. This is most notable with Cloud.

Lucas above Ness/ Dark Pit above Pit - Dark Pit has a more powerful Projectile and KO's better horizontally making his edgeguadring game better. Luacs has better damage racking tools, his down special deals damage, he has a tether grab, and PK Thunder 2 is slightly harder to gimp than PK thunder 1.

Dr. Mario above Samus, Roy and Ike?!?!? - Dr. Mario's recovery is better than one would have you believe. His air game is also one of the best in the game if he can utilise it. He can wall jump, and Doctor Tornado gains some air distance. He also has a decent projectile and one of the best gimping tools in the game, which is handy against Samus, Ike, Little Mac, Dedede and Falco among others.

Pac-Man is high? - Pac-Man has one of the best projectile games in the game with some decent machups the most notable being an even one against Diddy who is much higher than him. Like Doc, he also has the tools to beat the characters below him.

Wii Fit is kind of low - Wii Fit has lots of end lag on her attacks and has very wierd hitboxes on her attacks. Her recovery is only average and he projectile game also suffers from end lag.

Mii Swordfighter Nonviable? - Mii suffers from having a very bad moveset as most of his moves are weaker or slower versions of Link's/Toon Link's. His mobility is also only average and his recovery is a worse version of Links as he doesn't have Bomb's or a tether help him.

Kirby is a bit high... - Kirby has inhale and has a very versatile moveset. He also has five midair jumps and a stong KOing attack in his hammer. While Kirby isn't a top tier, he preforms well against several characters in the cast like Fox, Falco, or Captain Falcon who he can combo quite easily.


Notes:

The gap between Mewtwo and Marth is quite large but not as large as the gap between Wario and Dr. Mario and Mario and Diddy.

The gap between Ness and Lucas, Pit and Dark Pit, Cloud and Bayonetta, and Wii Fit and Mii Gunner are quite small.

Villager, Captain Falcon, and Olimar are between the grapplers.

Luigi is between the clones Marth and Lucina.

Pikachu, Luigi, and Corrin are in top tier as are Meta Knight and Toon Link.

Peach is above Captain Falcon. This mirrors her status in the current Backroom Melee and Brawl Tier lists.


Mains: :4luigi::4dk::4drmario::4tlink:

Attempting to Main: :4mario::4lucina::4bowser::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4falco:
 
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Frihetsanka

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I used to think that Luigi was really good, potentially top 15 even. Then I studied his MU chart a bit and, well... Even optimistically he's not top 15.

Luigi likely loses to Cloud (some argue it's even), Corrin (some argue it's even, I really don't think it is though), Mewtwo (potentially -2), Pikachu (could be even), Rosalina (potentially -2), Sheik, Sonic (could be even), and Zero Suit Samus. He might also lose to Bayonetta (most characters do, although Luigi is arguably closer to even than most). That's, what, 7-9 bad MUs? And two of them could potentially be -2 MUs (Rosalina and Mewtwo). Compare this to, say, Corrin, who has 3-4 losing MUs (Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and potentially Cloud). How is Luigi better than Corrin?

Of course, it should be noted that Luigi likely goes even with some notable characters, such as Diddy Kong, Fox, Mario, Ryu, and maybe even Marth. He's not a bad character, but top 15? I don't see it, not with that MU chart (it is, of course, possible that some of these bad MUs turn out to be even, which could put him into top 15, I suppose, though I don't believe that is the case).

Kirby is a bit high... - Kirby has inhale and has a very versatile moveset. He also has five midair jumps and a stong KOing attack in his hammer. While Kirby isn't a top tier, he preforms well against several characters in the cast like Fox, Falco, or Captain Falcon who he can combo quite easily.
I think Kirby is likely bottom 5 when you don't count Miis. His MU spread is overall pretty horrible, although he does have some -1 against a few top and high tiers, which is nice. He still get invalidated by other top tiers and has an overall really bad MU spread. Also, isn't his hammer pretty bad due to the endlag (and the fact that it's super easy to block)?
 

The_Bookworm

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Messages
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I used to think that Luigi was really good, potentially top 15 even. Then I studied his MU chart a bit and, well... Even optimistically he's not top 15.

Luigi likely loses to Cloud (some argue it's even), Corrin (some argue it's even, I really don't think it is though), Mewtwo (potentially -2), Pikachu (could be even), Rosalina (potentially -2), Sheik, Sonic (could be even), and Zero Suit Samus. He might also lose to Bayonetta (most characters do, although Luigi is arguably closer to even than most). That's, what, 7-9 bad MUs? And two of them could potentially be -2 MUs (Rosalina and Mewtwo). Compare this to, say, Corrin, who has 3-4 losing MUs (Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and potentially Cloud). How is Luigi better than Corrin?

Of course, it should be noted that Luigi likely goes even with some notable characters, such as Diddy Kong, Fox, Mario, Ryu, and maybe even Marth. He's not a bad character, but top 15? I don't see it, not with that MU chart (it is, of course, possible that some of these bad MUs turn out to be even, which could put him into top 15, I suppose, though I don't believe that is the case).

I think Kirby is likely bottom 5 when you don't count Miis. His MU spread is overall pretty horrible, although he does have some -1 against a few top and high tiers, which is nice. He still get invalidated by other top tiers and has an overall really bad MU spread. Also, isn't his hammer pretty bad due to the endlag (and the fact that it's super easy to block)?
I think people went overboard with Elegant's successes with Luigi. Luigi is top 20, for sure, but Elegant isn't the master of consistency. With ZeRo gone, people may think he has a chance to win a major, but he struggles against Sheik players, Dabuz always rips him apart, and MKLeo downloaded him after GTX. It is similar to Lucario: no one has fought a Luigi player of his caliber (which is seen in Leo's first game against him in GTX where he tried to edgeguard him recklessly) prior to his breakout tournament, but it would be hard to repeat that success in the future. It is hard to say that Luigi is top 15 when characters like Ryu, Lucina, Corrin, and Meta Knight exists.

This leaves me confused, when Fatality had a more commanding success earlier in 2017 (with Civil War and Momocon), people didn't go crazy for Captain Falcon.

For Kirby, after Komata's upset over Ally on Frostbite 2017, Kirby pretty much have fallen off the map, with the nerfs it got from Brawl being more severe than expected (even after getting buffed from game updates). As seen in my above tier list, I tied him with Dr. Mario at the bottom of F tier. They are surprisingly similar. Both have an alright combo game and have a few KO moves. However, their range, mobility, and endurance (for Dr. Mario it is because of his terrible recovery; for Kirby it is because of his weight) is pitiful.
 
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Frihetsanka

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I think people went overboard with Elegant's successes with Luigi. He is top 20, for sure, but Elegant isn't the master of consistancy.
I don't think he's top 20 "for sure". Characters like Greninja, Meta Knight, Lucario, Peach, Captain Falcon, and Olimar compete with him for that spot. Top 15 is pretty much set in stone (in my opinion), so you have those 7 characters compete for top 20. Luigi would have to be better than at least two of them to reach top 20. Not impossible, but certainly not "for sure", in my opinion.

I think Greninja and Meta Knight are pretty much guaranteed to be top 20, and Lucario likely is too. That leaves Peach, Olimar, and Captain Falcon. Luigi would have to be better than two of those three in order to be top 20 (assuming you agree that Greninja, Meta Knight, and Lucario are top 20). Not impossible but far from certain.
 

The_Bookworm

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I don't think he's top 20 "for sure". Characters like Greninja, Meta Knight, Lucario, Peach, Captain Falcon, and Olimar compete with him for that spot. Top 15 is pretty much set in stone (in my opinion), so you have those 7 characters compete for top 20. Luigi would have to be better than at least two of them to reach top 20. Not impossible, but certainly not "for sure", in my opinion.

I think Greninja and Meta Knight are pretty much guaranteed to be top 20, and Lucario likely is too. That leaves Peach, Olimar, and Captain Falcon. Luigi would have to be better than two of those three in order to be top 20 (assuming you agree that Greninja, Meta Knight, and Lucario are top 20). Not impossible but far from certain.
Greninja top 20? Since when?
 

Frihetsanka

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Greninja top 20? Since when?
Greninja has been a very solid character for some time now, losing -1 vs 6-7 characters, going even with most high tiers, and being really solid overall. Some MU charts by notable Greninja players:

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Unfortunately for Greninja, the character has a bit of "Pikachu" syndrome, hard to play at a top level while not giving sufficient reward. Why spend so much time learning Greninja when you can spend less time learning Cloud, or Diddy Kong, or Bayonetta? Greninja is worse than Pikachu, but still a bit underrated. It wouldn't surprise me if Greninja ended up somewhere around 18-22 on the next 4BR tier list.
 

Frihetsanka

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What's at stake?
For top level players? Potentially lots of money, and maybe the opportunity to join a team. I'm not saying that's how people should think, but I do think many people think like that (perhaps even subconsciously). Though it is clear that even technical characters can get high usage if they're perceived to be good enough (see: Sheik).

This is at top levels. At lower levels of play I'd expect to see a larger % of non-top 15 characters than at top level of play. Greninja is a very solid character and I've heard some people find it very fun to play, so if they enjoy playing Greninja and picking the most optimal character isn't the #1 reason, then perhaps they should play Greninja.
 

The_Bookworm

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Greninja has been a very solid character for some time now, losing -1 vs 6-7 characters, going even with most high tiers, and being really solid overall. Some MU charts by notable Greninja players:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Unfortunately for Greninja, the character has a bit of "Pikachu" syndrome, hard to play at a top level while not giving sufficient reward. Why spend so much time learning Greninja when you can spend less time learning Cloud, or Diddy Kong, or Bayonetta? Greninja is worse than Pikachu, but still a bit underrated. It wouldn't surprise me if Greninja ended up somewhere around 18-22 on the next 4BR tier list.
Pikachu syndrome indeed. Those matchup charts looks way too optimistic for my liking. I think there are simply stronger characters right now in the current metagame (such as Olimar, DK, and Falcon) that Greninja needs to compete with in order to get a place at top 20. Right now, it is around the 23-27 range in the current meta. However, this means that Greninja is a solid character.
 
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