Young Link vs. Spacies Info Dump

[Diabolical PIe]

So I've been tinking about Young Link and it seems to me that the biggest matchups holding him back from being seen more frequently are the abysmal Spacies matchups. If we could share any tips we have on fighting these guys, I think it might bring us one step closer to progressing with our character.

My two cents:

Offensive Options:

- If we can start u-air chains it leads to all kinds of juicy combos
- Tech chases off of down-throws or combos off of up throws at higher percents are good if the Spacies overcommit with an attack (rare in high level play)
- Crouch cancel nairs into d-smash for kills/edgeguards
- Any recovery situation should always result in a stock loss for the Spacies. Bombs beat out Firefox/Firebird and can be followed with more projectiles/nair/bair, and Illusion can be covered by running off the stage and returning with nair like Sheik, or any projectile.

Defensive Options:

- Mixup recovery with tether, early/fade back/sweetspot up-b, and cover recovery with bombs to return to the stage
- SDI during Falco's pillar combos on shield? (direction?)
- Constant mobility/platform use- never stand still (important in every matchup)
- Pretty sure you can tech Fox's shine?
- Stuff over-aggression with bombs/fair walls

Useless but Kinda Funny:

- Arrows create a hurtbox on the ground and block lasers at low trajectories
- Rising dair off the ledge back to stage against Illusion will lead to a fire spike (it's very difficult and risky, though)

I feel like these matchups are fairly do-able when the Spacies are going in and being aggressive, but the second Fox starts to camp, it gets insanely difficult. If anyone has ideas for solutions against that, I'm all ears. So, info dump! Go!

 

[MagicScrumpy]

1. Starting at around 50%, utilt becomes a very useful move for starting and continuing combos. For a while, you can follow up on their DI with fair, nair, or sometimes even a boomerang if their DI wasn't all that good.

2. I play against a Falco who likes to shine projectiles, which is probably a fairly rare occurrence among more competent spacies. However, if you ever catch a spacie shining a bomb or something, it's very easy to go in and punish it because of the shine-lock spacies are put in when they reflect a projectie. Be careful with this one if you aren't sure you can get it because, if you're too late, you can get a nair, dair or shine (if they manage to multishine it) to the face. However, it's a great thing to capitalize on if you ever get the opportunity. It's just situational.

3. Young Link can't outcamp a competent Fox because his lasers stuff your projectiles. It's still hard, but much more possible, to outcamp a Falco. But remember that Fox and Falco are vulnerable from above if they are shooting lasers, so you can sometimes get a bomb or boomerang on them from above if you're fast enough.

4. Don't worry about hitting them with your projectiles. They are a very good tool to guide them into the positional disadvantage, which they absolutely have to be in if you want to win.

5. Young Link's shield isn't exactly amazing, and his grab is a little laggy and very easy to punish, so YL is pretty susceptible to shield pressure. If you're being pressured, try to get in a nair OoS if they mess up on execution or WD OoS if you have the means to get away and not be chased down. Both spacies have very good shield pressure and are very mobile out of said pressure so that's hard.

6. As a complement to the fifth point, just try to stay away from the spacies unless you absolutely have to go in. I've lost the positional advantage many times by trying to camp and therefore letting the space animal effortlessly take center stage. Young Link needs that stage control.

7. Fun fact: spacies struggle a lot if they don't have that stage control, and a lot of spacie players will try to forcibly take center stage back. A lot of them like to use dair --> shine or nair --> shine to exert pressure. A well-spaced utilt can stuff those approaches, which you can often read because they will often be made out of some sort of desperation.

8. Both spacies (but especially Falco) are fairly easy to gimp. Bomb --> aerial and nairing off the stage are both amazing tools Young Link has in his kit to prevent spacies from coming back.

9. Young Link is very comboable and susceptible to the spacies' kill moves, so you need to be wary. End combos whenever possible with any of your aerials, which are very good for breaking up combos.

10. Crouch canceling against spacies is godlike. Fox's dair beats your crouch cancel, but most other moves can be crouch canceled into a down smash.

11. Bair is godlike for perpetuating combos. SH bair --> double jump is a very effective as a mixup, and it also often lets you control the stage and set up some nice stuff.

12. Bomb --> nair is godlike.

13. Spacies are combo food. YL has a bad combo game, but even he can combo the spacies to an extent. Utilt and uair are fantastic options.

14. Young Link is very maneuverable, which can somewhat reduce the effectiveness of laser camping.

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Okay, so I just came back from a local and beat everyone in my pools except for a Samus player (who was really close to me) and a Fox player (who bodied me). Then I got into bracket, beat another Samus main and ended up against the top rated player in our state, so lost to him, then barely managed to take a game off a Fox in losers before he four-stocked me the next game. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little exasperated with Fox at the moment.

It feels like I'm playing the Falcon match-up, where I have to be much more careful about wherever I pull a bomb because I might get punished, only that bombs feel much more worthless thanks to laser spam. Recovering is a nightmare. This character is a serious problem that I need to overcome. :/

MagicScrumpy, all of your tips are amazing and they've really helped me! Thanks for contributing! I'll keep on researching and see what I can come up with myself too...

 

[Pure Royalty]

my problem is that i go for grabs too much. my marth mentality likes to screw me over. and missing a grab against fox is a death sentence.
in this match up i use boomerang a lot more than bombs, they have less of an opening to punish.
dtilt is good if they dont sweet spot and do not expect it. i gotten my friend with it a few times but now he knows

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Actually, if you have the time to go for a d-tilt by the ledge, f-tilt is a much better option. It hits below the ledge slightly and covers a very wide space above it, handling more options. The hitbox also comes out faster and stays out longer.

Once you get a spacie below the ledge, they'll be forced to up-b and CANNOT sweet spot. In this scenario, they should never be coming back. You can space a d-smash away from the ledge to finish them and use the disjoint to avoid getting hit. You could also turn around to grab ledge and invincible nair if you have time.

I reserve d-tilt for early gimps against players that don't know it's a meteor, but really, it's only useful for swag/captain falcon and ganondorf.

 

[ihasabuket]

Ftilt has too high of a send angle and doesnt hit as low so Dsmash is a better option for covering the ledge at higher percents. However, I think some of you are underestimating dtilt especially against a falco. Although its a meteor its a very powerful one and is really useful for gimping when they are at a low percent. You have to wait 8 frames before you can meteor cancel plus spacies up b has a 42 frame startup. Dtilt hits frame 14-16 and is IASA frame 32. so 16 frames of endlag vs the opponents 50 frames gives you a 34 frame advantage. Lets not forget that falco and fox have the highest falling speed in the game which will create quite a lot of vertical distance when meteored. When you hit your dtilt you can usually grab the ledge and end their stock but in the event that theyre close enough to make it back you have a huge window of time to prepare and position yourself for an edgeguard. Also remember that when theyre recovering really close to the bottom of the stage they will probably ride up the wall where they can tech, in that situation it may be better to jab or bomb -> aerial.