Q&A You Found the Hint Glasses! - Q&A and FAQ

[Mrawesome48]

Is there a legit way to deal with link and toon link 's bull**** spam. I'm seriously tired of losing to rolling to one side of the map and just throwing bombs and arrows. And before you say "Well only Fg Links play like that I've been local and tourns and 90% of all links play like this.

 

[Rizen]

^Power shield projectiles and grab Link.

 

[link7]

Is there a legit way to deal with link and toon link 's bull**** spam. I'm seriously tired of losing to rolling to one side of the map and just throwing bombs and arrows. And before you say "Well only Fg Links play like that I've been local and tourns and 90% of all links play like this.

Only bad Link's play this way.

 

[Mrawesome48]

Only bad Link's play this way.

Correction:most links play this way because projectiles have been buffed so now it feasible to just sit across the stage and shoot arrows

^Power shield projectiles and grab Link.

Power shielding is pretty crummy advice. Power shielding is the universal response to most questions and most people's first instinct is to shield. I'm looking for solutions that aren't power shielding and looks like someone actually pondered the question instead of typing shield like 90% of most smash forums. Im ok at grabs but the issue is i cant grab out of rolls and i usually get pushed back by link's jabs when i try to approach

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

We've answered you honestly with good advice. It really is that simple. Anyone with a half decent shield game will make camping very difficult. If most Links play that way, then most Links are bad. If you can't grab out of rolls, don't roll. Get better. If you're still unhappy, go ask someone else. I don't see why we should be telling you how to beat our own character anyway. You'd get much better advice from someone who is actually in your shoes trying to beat us.

 

[Elessar]

Is there a legit way to deal with link and toon link 's bull**** spam. I'm seriously tired of losing to rolling to one side of the map and just throwing bombs and arrows. And before you say "Well only Fg Links play like that I've been local and tourns and 90% of all links play like this.

The Links in your region suck.

Correction:most links play this way because projectiles have been buffed so now it feasible to just sit across the stage and shoot arrows

When have projectiles been buffed? Projectiles suck in this game, specially Link's.

Power shielding is pretty crummy advice. Power shielding is the universal response to most questions and most people's first instinct is to shield. I'm looking for solutions that aren't power shielding and looks like someone actually pondered the question instead of typing shield like 90% of most smash forums. Im ok at grabs but the issue is i cant grab out of rolls and i usually get pushed back by link's jabs when i try to approach

Looks like you need to learn how to play. Power shielding isn't just simple and effective, it's super effective. If you learn how to dash and perfect shield you can zone into Link before he finishes his gale throw animation.

Also, you can't grab out of your rolls? Or your opponent's rolls? To be honest, your post reads like Johns about you wanting an easy win. I can't see your main (on my phone) but if it's Rosa, then you don't need to approach really, and you have that gravity special to help you. It really seems as if you just need to get better at the game.

 

[Mrawesome48]

The Links in your region suck.



When have projectiles been buffed? Projectiles suck in this game, specially Link's.



Looks like you need to learn how to play. Power shielding isn't just simple and effective, it's super effective. If you learn how to dash and perfect shield you can zone into Link before he finishes his gale throw animation.

Also, you can't grab out of your rolls? Or your opponent's rolls? To be honest, your post reads like Johns about you wanting an easy win. I can't see your main (on my phone) but if it's Rosa, then you don't need to approach really, and you have that gravity special to help you. It really seems as if you just need to get better at the game.

Nah i took the time to write the original question and ask for advice because i have no intention of getting better. Really?? I asked the question because im working on getting better against some of the people i struggle with. I asked in this thread because I play more than half the cast as opposed to the thread of the char im playing. So my main is always changing. I'm sorry im not king of punishing rolls or power shielding like the mighty Fox is openly deceptive. It's like im the first person we've ever met who cant punish rolls Gasp. I'm more than aware im not the best. If you've seen some of my other posts in other sections of smashboards i have said numerous times i need help with Punishing rolls pivot grabs and a few other things. I'm working on it one step at a time. Link is extremely common online so im starting with im first. Saying i need to get better is redundant because if i wasn't trying i wouldn't be on this website.

 

[Zelkam]

@ link7 @ Elessar let's try to keep the trolling/flaming to a minimum in the Q&A thread guys.

@ Mrawesome48 have you checked the OP yet? Your question has actually been asked a couple times and the answers are complied in OP so perhaps those might help you out. If you're still having trouble after that then let me know and I'll link you to a couple more resources.

Also, a word of advice. Starting off by talking about Links bull**** spam isn't going to give you the best first impression and it's probably going to result in some backlash, as you've seen. Remember that if you show some respect then you're liable to get respect in return.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm sorry im not king of punishing rolls or power shielding like the mighty Fox is openly deceptive.

There was a time when I would have made this quote my signature XD.

 

[Elessar]

Nah i took the time to write the original question and ask for advice because i have no intention of getting better. Really?? I asked the question because im working on getting better against some of the people i struggle with. I asked in this thread because I play more than half the cast as opposed to the thread of the char im playing. So my main is always changing. I'm sorry im not king of punishing rolls or power shielding like the mighty Fox is openly deceptive. It's like im the first person we've ever met who cant punish rolls Gasp. I'm more than aware im not the best. If you've seen some of my other posts in other sections of smashboards i have said numerous times i need help with Punishing rolls pivot grabs and a few other things. I'm working on it one step at a time. Link is extremely common online so im starting with im first. Saying i need to get better is redundant because if i wasn't trying i wouldn't be on this website.

The problem is your attitude to our answers. When we answered your question honestly with the only possible answer you replied with snark. What did you expect that would cause? You want to learn to deal with projectiles, then learn to powershield. If everyone has told you this all over smashboards it's because it's the best way. Asking in more boards won't give you a different answer when there is only one right answer. Learn to power shield. Go into training mode with a friend or with two controllers, Pick Any character and Falco/Mario. Stand them close to one another and either ask your friend to only shoot laser/fireball, or set the PC to do it, or press B with your toe on that controller. Then, with your char, try to power shield that projectile. Do this over and over until you can power shield it most if not every time. Now change it so that you're approaching as you need to powershield. First walking, then running. Voila, in a couple of days you'll be able to power shield. Dot he same for teching. Dot he same for rolls, trying to ifnd the moment when you can punish them.

Was this what you were looking for? See, there are no free wins, nobody gets good or improves due to some magical advice. You need to work on it, practice. There's a reason we have a Link's Training grounds stage. If you don't work, you'll never rise above mediocre. Also, focus on one char. Many people do what you do; they come in here asking for advice but never say which char they main. We can't give you solid advise unless we know your main because every char plays different. That's why Mus are a ting and are so important.

As you can see, your original post was aggressive and condescending. On top of t hat, it asked a trite question in a poor way. We replied with the only right answer and got snark back, and attitude. How on earth do you expect people to react? Cower? As Zelkam said, you show respect, you'll get respect. We go by Newton's third law of motion here.

 

[Mrawesome48]

The problem is your attitude to our answers. When we answered your question honestly with the only possible answer you replied with snark. What did you expect that would cause? You want to learn to deal with projectiles, then learn to powershield. If everyone has told you this all over smashboards it's because it's the best way. Asking in more boards won't give you a different answer when there is only one right answer. Learn to power shield. Go into training mode with a friend or with two controllers, Pick Any character and Falco/Mario. Stand them close to one another and either ask your friend to only shoot laser/fireball, or set the PC to do it, or press B with your toe on that controller. Then, with your char, try to power shield that projectile. Do this over and over until you can power shield it most if not every time. Now change it so that you're approaching as you need to powershield. First walking, then running. Voila, in a couple of days you'll be able to power shield. Dot he same for teching. Dot he same for rolls, trying to ifnd the moment when you can punish them.

Was this what you were looking for? See, there are no free wins, nobody gets good or improves due to some magical advice. You need to work on it, practice. There's a reason we have a Link's Training grounds stage. If you don't work, you'll never rise above mediocre. Also, focus on one char. Many people do what you do; they come in here asking for advice but never say which char they main. We can't give you solid advise unless we know your main because every char plays different. That's why Mus are a ting and are so important.

As you can see, your original post was aggressive and condescending. On top of t hat, it asked a trite question in a poor way. We replied with the only right answer and got snark back, and attitude. How on earth do you expect people to react? Cower? As Zelkam said, you show respect, you'll get respect. We go by Newton's third law of motion here.

I'm sorry if you wouldnt mind helping me i would really appreciate it

 

[Elessar]

I'm sorry if you wouldnt mind helping me i would really appreciate it

I already have. Read my post again and dot hat to learn power shielding.

 

[Mrawesome48]

I already have. Read my post again and dot hat to learn power shielding.

I was looking more for sparring help and i tried your above advice and it didn't really help. For some it works for me it didnt

 

[Chis]

So I've started playing Link, what stuff should I start working on?

 

[Elessar]

So I've started playing Link, what stuff should I start working on?

Start by eating the stickies in this board. As to things you should train on, be comfortable off stage. Test how far and low you can go and still make it back so you are confident when recovering. Also, work on your spacing and on being constantly mobile. Don't spam still or you'll get severely punished. Finally, don't roll. Learn to run and jump. Don't roll.

 

[epicnights]

I've been playin Link since the Wii U version came out, and I've been lurking for quite a while. I've already read all the stickies, however I still have a few questions.

1. How important are Wavebouncing, Shield dropping, and Perfect pivoting to Link's gameplan respectively and why?

2. Should I be using Zair more for defensive options (ex.: retreating Zair) or for offensive options (ex.: setting up strings)?

 

[Elessar]

I've been playin Link since the Wii U version came out, and I've been lurking for quite a while. I've already read all the stickies, however I still have a few questions.

1. How important are Wavebouncing, Shield dropping, and Perfect pivoting to Link's gameplan respectively and why?

2. Should I be using Zair more for defensive options (ex.: retreating Zair) or for offensive options (ex.: setting up strings)?

Wavebouncing isn't really useful for Link, any more than for anybody else that is. You can use it and implement it, but it's not core to the current meta since arrows are slow and offer no real benefit. That being said, using it smartly won't hurt your game so if you want to go for them, do it.

Perfect Pivoting is useful, but again since Link barely slides not too much. You can use it to adjust your spacing and it'll help you, but the problem is that currently our options out of the pivot are limited. I mean, you won't accomplish much more than you would with just a regular pivot. Thing is, most Link mains have cstick to attack in order to do soft throws. With this setup you can't (I believe) smash out of a perfect Pivot which is the greatest advantage that perfect pivoting offers. Your options then would be Jab (which is horrible because it leads to nothing), utilt, ftilt (which you can achieve just as well by simply pivoting), and grab, which doesn't need to be perfect pivoted to do a pivot grab. So, in conclusion, pivoting is pivotal (I'm not even sorry) to Link's current Meta imo, but you don't need to perfect Pivot. If you want to do it, go for it, won't hurt, but I would focus your training time on bombslides rather than perfect pivoting.

I forgot about the second question. Based on experience I would use zair only defensively. Zair doesn't string into anything due to its increased range and kb, so you won't be able to approach with zair and start a string of hits. Second, if you approach with it most good players will just perfect shield it and grab/punish you. So, as I said, in my personal experience zair is good as a "get away from my face" tool rather than an approaching one.

 

[FSK]

I've been playin Link since the Wii U version came out, and I've been lurking for quite a while. I've already read all the stickies, however I still have a few questions.

1. How important are Wavebouncing, Shield dropping, and Perfect pivoting to Link's gameplan respectively and why?

2. Should I be using Zair more for defensive options (ex.: retreating Zair) or for offensive options (ex.: setting up strings)?

1. It's not really certain if it's really improtant for Link, but at the moment it doesn't really seem like it.

2. Some of the reasons that made zair great in brawl was the hitbox, the no landing lag and that you could airdodge zair, to zair with a bomb. These made the zair a great offensive option in brawl and one of Link's best. The zair has been severely nerfed (all of the mentioned features) in smash 4 and it is not recommended to use it offensively (in my opinion at least).

 

[Deleted member]

Just out of curiosity:

Has anyone done any formal data collection on the kill percents for Uthrow on the cast?

I was probably going to fool around with that today, I can say right now that 160% is approximately the magic number that will kill all of the cast save for the heavyweights or for stages with really high ceilings like Kongo Jungle.

A little lower with rage of course.

 

[Rizen]

Just out of curiosity:

Has anyone done any formal data collection on the kill percents for Uthrow on the cast?

I was probably going to fool around with that today, I can say right now that 160% is approximately the magic number that will kill all of the cast save for the heavyweights or for stages with really high ceilings like Kongo Jungle.

A little lower with rage of course.

I'm not aware of any specifics but it's like you said: 160% is a good rule of thumb but, enemy weight and Link's rage dependent, I'd start trying for Uthrow kills at 140%. 180% can probably kill any character on any legal stage without rage. Very light characters can die early in the 120%s if the conditions are right: Link has rage, low ceilings etc.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not aware of any specifics but it's like you said: 160% is a good rule of thumb but, enemy weight and Link's rage dependent, I'd start trying for Uthrow kills at 140%. 180% can probably kill any character on any legal stage without rage. Very light characters can die early in the 120%s if the conditions are right: Link has rage, low ceilings etc.

Yeah typically I start looking for it at around 140%, if I get a grab there I typically try to pummel up to 150% and cross my fingers that a Uthrow then will be enough, but of course it depends on the stage.

I personally try not to use Uthrow at any time but when the kill percent rolls around because I want to keep it as fresh as possible.

 

[Axel311]

When playing against link what are the best tips for dealing with his bombs? The delay on these gets me all the time.

 

[DUKEL]

When playing against link what are the best tips for dealing with his bombs? The delay on these gets me all the time.

I hate to be that guy. actually - no i don't But shielding does wonders. Also learning how to catch them might help you out a bit.

 

[Dumbfire]

When playing against link what are the best tips for dealing with his bombs? The delay on these gets me all the time.

It would help more if you have footage, just point a camera at your screen for all I care. This is far too vague to say anything.

 

[Elessar]

When playing against link what are the best tips for dealing with his bombs? The delay on these gets me all the time.

About the delay, just try to get a feeling from when they'll explode. Remember that the fue is 3.66 seconds long. As to how to deal with them, try catching them. Go to training with Link and take out a bomb, throw it upwards and then jump and try catching it in the air. Or throw it and when it falls try catching it before it lands and explodes (just press a). Do this until you get a natural feeling of how to catch them.

 

[Axel311]

It would help more if you have footage, just point a camera at your screen for all I care. This is far too vague to say anything.

Well I was just looking for general advice, nothing specific. I asked because I played a good link main several sets last night. Unfortunately I didn't save the replays. I'll see if I can get a video next time I ask a question.

About the delay, just try to get a feeling from when they'll explode. Remember that the fue is 3.66 seconds long. As to how to deal with them, try catching them. Go to training with Link and take out a bomb, throw it upwards and then jump and try catching it in the air. Or throw it and when it falls try catching it before it lands and explodes (just press a). Do this until you get a natural feeling of how to catch them.

Thanks, that's great advice I'll try this out.

I hate to be that guy. actually - no i don't But shielding does wonders. Also learning how to catch them might help you out a bit.

Well I'm good at perfect shielding but when shielding the bombs they still drop to the ground and are a threat. I think that's what throwing me off more than anything, I'm used to perfect shielding projectiles that disappear on shield. Link is different from most projectile characters in that way.

 

[Spirst]

@ Axel311 Just a heads up, try to edit your existing singular post rather than making three consecutive posts. Nobody likes clutter. You get a slap on the wrist this time but next time, I'll be under your bed.

 

[Dumbfire]

I've been trying to make tether recoveries my normal ledge grab because I've read it offers more options and was harder to read/punish than the (it is!). But, I just can't seem to understand exactly what the area of coverage is. At times I'll see the chain go out but not grab anything. Other times it seems like it should grab the stage but the regular chain comes out. I think I also remember the chain grabbing from below the stage as well?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Play around with it in training mode, it isn't that hard. Part of it is when you buffer it from hitstun it sometimes goes wrong, that's why I now airdodge first then press A or Z in those situations, that'll make sure that doesn't happen. It works in nearly all situations, but sometimes you need to time it a little better. For example, after a ledgehop bair if you just press Z immediately you'll fall to your death, if you wait a little (time it with an airdodge for convenience) you'll safely recover. In general it often goes wrong right next to the ledge, or a bit above it: below the ledge you'll almost invariably be fine.

I wouldn't make it your "normal ledge-grab" either, it's just a mix-up. There are many ways to recover, the more you use, the less predictable you are.

 

[Ryusei the Falling Star]

Thanks, Dumbfire. It seems to go a little smoother now. I hadn't realized that maybe I might be doing it to soon. I think I'll try to make a picture that shows the safe-zone for Link's tether recoveries for my reference and other noobs like me.

 

[DUKEL]

I just found out today that with Samus' tether if you hold down when the tether is out you won't grab the ledge. I assume this is also the case with our tether. Just an FYI.

 

[Rizen]

I just found out today that with Samus' tether if you hold down when the tether is out you won't grab the ledge. I assume this is also the case with our tether. Just an FYI.

That's been an AT since Brawl called demonic Zair.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Ryusei the Falling Star : Read up - http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-availability-and-why-tether-sometimes-doesnt-work.384628/

I just found out today that with Samus' tether if you hold down when the tether is out you won't grab the ledge.

You must have misinterpreted, because this isn't a thing. Unless of course somehow I'm misinterpreting you.

That's been an AT since Brawl called demonic Zair.

'Demonic Zair' worked because you would start the Zair from the under-side of the stage past the ledge such that it wouldn't turn into a tether. Technically this is still a thing in smash 4, but because of the new ledge mechanics it's never practically required anymore.

 

[DUKEL]

@ Ryusei the Falling Star : Read up -
You must have misinterpreted, because this isn't a thing. Unless of course somehow I'm misinterpreting you.

i was told by a Samus player I played in bracket, after my tether failed to grab the edge within range (it targeted the edge though). Apparently he had just been told as well. So a miscommunication that turned into another miscommunication then.

 

[FSK]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Is trump DI a real thing? I don't know what the input for it is, but I have not been able to alter the trump trajectory with conventional DI input. Could you refer me to where I can read about it or give me a short explanation of it?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I wasn't aware of there being anything like 'trump DI'. I'm pretty sure you can't alter the path of the trump. There are differences in the distances and arcs traveled by different characters, but that's it.

 

[link7]

I'm not sure if it's been labbed, so I thought I'd ask: Is it possible for Link to DI down into his shield at very low percentages if he get's caught by Mario's Dthrow Utilt chain?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm not sure if it's been labbed, so I thought I'd ask: Is it possible for Link to DI down into his shield at very low percentages if he get's caught by Mario's Dthrow Utilt chain?

The effect that directional input has on knockback and launch tradgectory is exponential in relation to how much knockback is induced. That is to say, it doesn't do a damn thing at lower percentages while getting hit by low knockback moves such as the D-throw to U-tilt chain. And I mean that seriously; don't even bother trying to DI out of set combos like this at very low percents when they are low knockback moves; you'd be better off thinking about what they'll finish the combo with and how to best DI that move imo.

The only thing that it going to get you out of Mario's D-throw to U-tilt combo such that you can shield it will be if Mario's U-tilt is already stale, and even then Link has to be at very low percentages.
For example I got Mario to use U-tilt four times then killed Link to reset his percent back to zero and I was able to power shield the second U-tilt after the D-throw by simply holding shield the whole time. [I also got Mario to use U-tilt three times, killed Link, and this time held down and held shield the whole time, and as expected it didn't help at all, just to prove a point.]

tl;rd: Escaping it is only something that will happen when you're on a fresh stock and Mario's U-tilt is already staled from the last stock.

 

[link7]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LRoYlPJeaG0

Look at the 3:30 mark though. I watched the begining of the game, and Marios utilt was fresh. It happens again in the following game also. Granted, it IS Sheik and not Link, but the guys explanation made it sound like all fast fallers could escape from it,which is why i asked.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LRoYlPJeaG0

Look at the 3:30 mark though. I watched the begining of the game, and Marios utilt was fresh. It happens again in the following game also. Granted, it IS Sheik and not Link, but the guys explanation made it sound like all fast fallers could escape from it,which is why i asked.

Yeah see I assumed you were talking about Link when you asked about Link XD, not like Sheik or Fox or some other faster faller. And the guy is a commentator; take whatever commentators say with a grain of salt. Also Link is known more for his 'fast fall' being so good due to the huge difference between his normal fall speed and his fast fall speed; he's not known for his normal 'fall speed' being exceptionally fast. There's a difference. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/FallSpeed/

 

[FSK]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LRoYlPJeaG0

Look at the 3:30 mark though. I watched the begining of the game, and Marios utilt was fresh. It happens again in the following game also. Granted, it IS Sheik and not Link, but the guys explanation made it sound like all fast fallers could escape from it,which is why i asked.

The reason why Sheik escapes and not Link is because sheik lands on the ground before Link does. Sheik therefore has the time to get the shield up before Link does to escape the utilt.

Because as @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive mentioned sheik's normal fall speed is faster than Link. A factor that might also be part of this is that sheik also seems to accelerate to her terminal velocity a lot fast than Link does his.