Yoshi's Perfect Parry

[NeverKillAgain]

PLEASE read the full post and ALL of my replies before posting. I put some follow-up info in one of my replies. Also, feel free to comment, this desperately needs more replies.

Hey guys, NeverKillAgain here, and I just wanted to talk about Yoshi's Perfect Parry, or PP for short. PP will NOT mean Perfect Pivot in this case.

If you don't know what a Perfect Parry is, watch this first:
https://youtu.be/RlGQpPg5PQc
(NOT MY VIDEO)

So, everyone knows Yoshi's shield AND perfect shield is trash. It is smaller than he is, making it similar to Melee G and W's shield, it is the weakest shield in the game, he can't shield platform drop, and it gives him no advantages when running into a shield. However, there is ONE good thing about his shield: it doesn't shrink in size. If other characters attempt to PP when their shield is too weak, they will be shieldpoked. However, Yoshi can PP anytime he wants if his shield health isn't to low. Abusing this can turn PP into a Yoshi-centric tech, and allow it to function similar his parry in Smash 64 (which was basically a perfect shield into a counter-attack, except you had 4 frames to do it). Keep in mind ANY grounded attack can be done out of a Perfect Parry.

So, what do you guys think? Will this slightly improve Yoshi's shield game?

This is also my first thread, so please leave constructive critisism in the comments... or not. IDC.

Credit-

Thanks to Lath, from the Falco Discord, who helped even though he doesn't play Yoshi. Here is his YT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/LGameTales

Shield info from muddykips:
https://smashboards.com/threads/yoshis-imperfect-shield.434033/

 

[KirinKQP]

Parrying, of course, is extremely difficult to pull off consistently. Not to mention the enemy could have spaced themselves well enough that you can't punish them so easily and you might not be frame perfect with getting out of the shield to run in at all. If you were to, say, put yourself into positions that you're used to being hit and shield which subsequently parries, then perhaps his shield game could be better. But knowing how weird of a game Melee is where not many events will happen the same way again like that, his shield is complete garbage.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

Parrying, of course, is extremely difficult to pull off consistently. Not to mention the enemy could have spaced themselves well enough that you can't punish them so easily and you might not be frame perfect with getting out of the shield to run in at all. If you were to, say, put yourself into positions that you're used to being hit and shield which subsequently parries, then perhaps his shield game could be better. But knowing how weird of a game Melee is where not many events will happen the same way again like that, his shield is complete garbage.

Problem solved:
https://youtu.be/ET1PZwOJ6mU

Also, this is more similar to his Smash 64 parry, not his Melee one.

Also, if the enemy spaced themselves well, you could quickly mash Jab since Yoshi's tilts aren't too laggy. Also, a normal fair OoS would be best instead of tryong to run up and grab/dash attack, since it autocancels in a SH.

 

[Delta-cod]

Problem solved:
https://youtu.be/ET1PZwOJ6mU

Also, this is more similar to his Smash 64 parry, not his Melee one

I don't think that really solves the problem -- Yoshi's shield grab is also pretty bad. And even in the video, the shield grab option select is still beaten (or at least not advantageous because it whiffs) with proper spacing from the opponent.

I think the best application of this is to utilize Yoshi's crawl/crouch while an opponent is airborne, then go for the PP. The question is -- is this better than sharking airborne opponents and setting up air dodge traps? Is fishing for a PP better than just flat out beating the move with our Usmash, for example? I'm not so sure.

Anyways, just food for thought. I think this has potential but it has to find a place among the other things Yoshi would want to be doing in these situations.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

I don't think that really solves the problem -- Yoshi's shield grab is also pretty bad. And even in the video, the shield grab option select is still beaten (or at least not advantageous because it whiffs) with proper spacing from the opponent.

I think the best application of this is to utilize Yoshi's crawl/crouch while an opponent is airborne, then go for the PP. The question is -- is this better than sharking airborne opponents and setting up air dodge traps? Is fishing for a PP better than just flat out beating the move with our Usmash, for example? I'm not so sure.

Anyways, just food for thought. I think this has potential but it has to find a place among the other things Yoshi would want to be doing in these situations.

Perfect Parry is mostly a tech that you always should be doing, so when you DO get a Perfect Shield, you have an immediate counterattack. You shouldn't be fishing for it, just doing it as often as possible. It helps that Yoshi's jab is amazing. You could Parry > Jab > Dtilt > edgeguard.

 

[Delta-cod]

Perfect Parry is mostly a tech that you always should be doing, so when you DO get a Perfect Shield, you have an immediate counterattack. You shouldn't be fishing for it, just doing it as often as possible. It helps that Yoshi's jab is amazing. You could Parry > Jab > Dtilt > edgeguard.

I disagree that Perfect Parry is something you should always be doing. There are times you want to hold shield, and that is mutually exclusive with Perfect Parrying. I agree that anytime you're tapping shield and expecting to be in range of your opponent you should be using PP, but otherwise this is not a replacement for shielding period.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

I disagree that Perfect Parry is something you should always be doing. There are times you want to hold shield, and that is mutually exclusive with Perfect Parrying. I agree that anytime you're tapping shield and expecting to be in range of your opponent you should be using PP, but otherwise this is not a replacement for shielding period.

That's pretty much what I mean, you obviously need to hold shield for rapid jabs, etc.

 

[Delta-cod]

That's pretty much what I mean, you obviously need to hold shield for rapid jabs, etc.

I'm glad that we agree on that much -- however, I do think there is a potentially harmful psychological aspect to PP in that it would tempt you to try to not hold shield and "fish" for these parries.

I'm generally of the belief that a lot of perfect shielding, unless against slow moves/projectiles, is kind of accidental, so it's a bit more complicated to implement than "you should always be Perfect Parrying".

 

[NeverKillAgain]

I'm glad that we agree on that much -- however, I do think there is a potentially harmful psychological aspect to PP in that it would tempt you to try to not hold shield and "fish" for these parries.

I'm generally of the belief that a lot of perfect shielding, unless against slow moves/projectiles, is kind of accidental, so it's a bit more complicated to implement than "you should always be Perfect Parrying".

Whenever you shield an attack, for example, Fox's Nair, always implement PP into your play, so just tap shield to block the attack and then press A. It's also safer for Yoshi since he can spam shield faster than any other character.

 

[Pixel_]

Whenever you shield an attack, for example, Fox's Nair, always implement PP into your play, so just tap shield to block the attack and then press A. It's also safer for Yoshi since he can spam shield faster than any other character.

OK, I'm gonna have to step in here for a bit to clear up these misconceptions.

"Just an additional note: Yoshi cannot be shield poked, his smaller shield makes it harder to perfect shield (as noted by Muddykips) and in smash 4 he cannot shield drop [through] platforms. These are the only differences our shield has from the shields of other characters. There are a lot of rumors that circulate about Yoshi's shield, they are not true. He doesn't have extra shield health, his shield doesn't come out late, he doesn't have more/less shield drop or shield stun frames, etc. " - Queen of Mischief / Huggles

So no, Yoshi can't spam shield faster than other characters.

 

[Delta-cod]

Whenever you shield an attack, for example, Fox's Nair, always implement PP into your play, so just tap shield to block the attack and then press A. It's also safer for Yoshi since he can spam shield faster than any other character.

You're proving my point. You are advocating for never holding shield to block attacks in lieu of just tapping shield to PP things. My argument is that this is a harmful mindset to take in relation to using PP, as you are likely going to eat a lot more damage by failing to block things than if you'd just accept that you won't always intentionally perfect shield things, and then just be willing to hold shield and accept normal Out of Shield punishes or resets.

What you just said is what I'd call fishing for PPs, and that's a high risk...medium reward, at best, in my mind. Not really a winning strategy. At this point I'd rather just try to eat people's moves with Usmash.

 

[Masonomace]

OK, I'm gonna have to step in here for a bit to clear up these misconceptions.

"he doesn't have more/less shield drop or shield stun frames, etc. " - Queen of Mischief / Huggles

So no, Yoshi can't spam shield faster than other characters.

I've only been lurking, but.

I thought that we discussed a while ago that Yoshi can spam tapping egg shield faster than any character by two frames? I've done the frame skipping in the past & even now refreshing my memory doing it again, Yoshi can in fact tap egg shield & the time spent in shield is 2 frames less than the cast. By this point, Yoshi can spam shield faster than other characters, but ONLY if you tap an egg shield, not holding it. Holding egg shield means you have the same shield data as everyone else.

With this said, I would say that PP+shielding doesn't make this useful because the idea is to hold shield against the attack if you think it'll hit. Even still, it's more-so risky for Yoshi because of several issues:

• Egg shield is small (in fact, the smallest shield size in the game), even if the shield doesn't get stabbed
• The frames locked in egg shield are less by two, meaning you can't block a move for as long (would of been great if egg shield had two frames less on shield drop.)
• You can't angle the egg to block an attack earlier (I wonder if you can shield DI with egg though?)

An ability to shield-dropthrough would be great but alas.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

I've only been lurking, but.

I thought that we discussed a while ago that Yoshi can spam tapping egg shield faster than any character by two frames? I've done the frame skipping in the past & even now refreshing my memory doing it again, Yoshi can in fact tap egg shield & the time spent in shield is 2 frames less than the cast. By this point, Yoshi can spam shield faster than other characters, but ONLY if you tap an egg shield, not holding it. Holding egg shield means you have the same shield data as everyone else.

With this said, I would say that PP+shielding doesn't make this useful because the idea is to hold shield against the attack if you think it'll hit. Even still, it's more-so risky for Yoshi because of several issues:

• Egg shield is small (in fact, the smallest shield size in the game), even if the shield doesn't get stabbed
• The frames locked in egg shield are less by two, meaning you can't block a move for as long (would of been great if egg shield had two frames less on shield drop.)
• You can't angle the egg to block an attack earlier (I wonder if you can shield DI with egg though?)

An ability to shield-dropthrough would be great but alas.

Yes, this is what I meant. Yoshi can spam shield faster by tapping. But is it really only 2 frames less?

Now, sorry for the late replies, but I had to prepare for hurricane Irma.

Sorry if this is already common knowledge.

So... in Melee, you parried an attack by shielding during his pre shield animation and then jumping out. But I recently found out that you can jump out of his pre shield animation in Smash 4 too. I haven't tested this yet, but could it be possible to parry like this in Smash 4?

Now back to Perfect Parrying. It could be used as a potential mixup when you learn your opponents' habits. If a Fox player liked to SH (FF) Nair on shield, you could attempt a PP Jab > Dtilt > Fair > Up tilt > Uair > Uair, or whatever conversion you see fit. I don't have anyone to test with right now (Hurricane) but Yoshi should have frame advantage. Such big damage off of one read could be HUGE for Yoshi.

EDIT: Okay, I just did a good amount of testing. I don't have exact frames though.

I will call this "new" tech the Imperfect Parry for now.

If you shield IMMEDIATELY before being hit, you will get a perfect shield, and you can jump out of shield if you hold it down then jump. If you don't hold shield, Yoshi will do his shield drop animation. This defeats the entire purpose of Imperfect Parrying. Immediately after jumping, release both shield and jump, and you can immediately do an aerial. However, you can't buffer the aerial due to shield stun, it will eat your jump input and you will do a Perfect Parry instead.

The Perfect Parry is usually better for Yoshi than Imperfect Parrying because:
-his jab and down tilt are very good
-Perfect Parrying is easier to do than Imperfect Parrying
-Perfect Parrying is more versatile

However, Imperfect Parrying is still useful, especially for getting an opponent off of you with Nair.

 

[NeverKillAgain]

TO CLEAR UP ANY MISCONCEPTIONS:

NO, you don't hold shield
NO, this isn't attacking out of shield, this is an option select
NO, this isn't useless due to difficulty (git gud)
NO, I am not saying always PP. Just use it when applicable

 

[Lukingordex]

To be honest i think people exaggerate a bit when talking about Yoshi's perfect shield. It's still useful combined with yoshi's ground mobility and you can still manage to put yourself into a advantageous situation after powershielding most moves in the game