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Yoshi's Island Representation

Yosher

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First of all, apologies if this is the wrong place for this. I think it's a little unclear where general universe discussions should be held, but I assume this doesn't belong in the Yoshi character sub-forum at least, so I went here.

Anyway, onto the topic at hand. How do people feel the Yoshi's Island series should be represented this time around? I personally feel like the Yoshi series has kind of gotten the short end of the stick especially since Brawl. Very few trophies, very few song representation, no items and no assist trophies. I think it's time for this to change in Smash Bros Ultimate.

Newcomer Characters
I'll touch upon potential newcomers only briefly, as this isn't the place to discuss those. I can be pretty short on that front; the Yoshi series barely has any characters that could become a fighter. I would personally love to see Kamek, but he already barely even appears playable in Mario sports/party games, and is confused for regular Magikoopas all the time, and probably would need to have too many moves made up specifically for Smash to even be worth it for the developers. The Baby Bros could be an Ice Climbers-esque team, but that would steal the thunder for those two, so I don't see them happening either. Much as I'd love to see new Yoshi's Island representation in the form of a character (in particular Kamek), I think it would make sense for Yoshi to stay the sole representative for his series.

Stages
With fighers out of the way, we can also discuss stages. Currently, there are three Yoshi stages confirmed to be returning: N64 Yoshi's Island, Melee Yoshi's Story, and Brawl Yoshi's Island. This leaves only Melee Yoshi's Island and Wii U Woolly World to return. Considering these two stages are the more unique Yoshi stages (keep in mind, I say unique, and not popular), I think it would be a shame if these two stages, especially Woolly World, would not come back. The three stages already returning have fairly generic layouts (even if they're the more popular stages out of all the Yoshi stages), so having some more variety would be nice.

But how about a new stage? Woolly World in Smash 4 was confirmed to be added very late into development and was in the game even though Yoshi's Woolly World was still in development at the time. (This also caused the stage to have very few songs that actually represented Woolly World, but that'll come later.) With the new Yoshi game coming out in 2019, I think it would be nice to have this game represented in a stage as well. Potentially, it could even include a unique 'Flipping' mechanic as seen in gameplay footage so far (hey, Jungle Hijinx in Smash Wii U had a very unique mechanic to it as well), with different hazards being present depending on which side it's flipped to. Of course, whenever flipping, players would need to keep in mind to watch their character as those will flip to the other side as well, basically. And even if the stage will be more generic than this, I think it's still fair to expect a new stage based on this game, or maybe one based on the original Yoshi's Island, but at a different location (possibly a stage reminiscent of the final battle of this game).

Assist Trophies
Now, unlike potential newcomers, the Yoshi series does have some more proper options to choose from regarding Assist Trophies. Most notably, Poochy would be absolutely perfect as one. When summoned, Poochy loyally follows its summoner around, knocking around any figher it happens to run into. Alternatively, the summoner can also hop on top of Poochy, and steer him left and right to make him run into opponents in a more controlled fashion. Potentially, Poochy can also knock around items some like he does with Yoshi eggs in the original Yoshi's Island (before cutely playing with them).

Another possible candidate could be Goonie. When summoned, it will fly above the stage, and drop certain things, such as bombs or Shy Guys. Similar to Lakitu's function in dropping Spinies, however, when attacked, Goonie will lose its wings and run around the stage aimlessly for a little while doing weak damage and knockback, until his time is up or he's attacked again. Shy Guys themselves can also be Assist Trophies on their own for that matter, being one of the weaker ones that would be easier to defeat.

One more candidate I thought of, would be Eggo-Dil. You know, the flowers that would spawn 5 'petals', which would spin around its head before firing them off. And it could pretty much have the same function here, with the petals dealing damage and weak knockback to whoever they would hit upon being fired. I think these are probably one of the more unique Yoshi's Island enemies, so.

I would've mentioned Kamek here, but I don't really see them making Kamek a stage hazard (as the Mushroom Kingdom U stage from the Wii U version is confirmed to return which Kamek was a hazard in) and an Assist Trophy. (But then again after second thought, Knuckles is an Assist Trophy while also appearing in the background of Green Hill Zone....) ..I guess Kamek could be an Assist Trophy as well, which he does have a better shot at than becoming a fighter. His gimmick usually is either changing level layouts or making characters bigger or smaller. Considering the former would be pretty difficult to pull off and growing/shrinking mechanics have been in the series since Melee, Kamek could potentially just grow the summoner (and potential teammates), or shrink opponent(s) for a little while.

Music
Music is, of course, also a pretty big part of the series. Now, to be fair, there hasn't been too many songs for Yoshi games to really take, as most Yoshi games prior to Woolly World had only a handful of songs that were simply repeatedly used. Super Mario World had pretty much the same song in different arrangements almost all throughout the game, Yoshi's Island had only a couple proper songs, Yoshi's Story took the Super Mario World approach and Yoshi's Island DS followed the footsteps of the original SNES game. Of course they didn't take every single song out of these games (where is the Yoshi's Island Final Boss theme for one?! ..and no that 5 second into to it from one of the medleys doesn't count), so they still have material to use there.

But they also have other games still as well, such as the Yoshi puzzle games. These games have a couple fun songs they could utilize as well. But the big one is obviously Yoshi's Woolly World. This game had a new song in almost every stage, which gives the game quite a lot to choose from. A few particular favourites of mine would be Craft Island, Shy But Deadly, Yoshi and Cookies and Lair of the Smooch Spiders. And there's still plenty more to choose from in this game alone, so I really think this is finally the time to give the Yoshi series some proper music representation. Considering most of these songs are fairly short when un-looped though, they could potentially make a couple fun medleys here.

Trophies
Now this one is where the last few installments really had no excuse whatsoever to give the Yoshi series the short end of the stick so much. Not counting fighter trophies, Melee had 5 trophies dedicated to the Yoshi series.. while Brawl and Smash 4 reduced this to 2 trophies dedicated to the series each. Even combined, Brawl and Smash 4 had less Yoshi trophies than Melee! They weirdly grouped Kamek with the Mario series too despite being more prominent in the Yoshi's Island series which is absolutely dumb. ...although they did put Kamek in the Yoshi's Island trophy box in Smash 4. Can they make up their mind which series Kamek really belongs to here?

Either way, there's plenty of trophy options for the Yoshi series to go for as well. Any of the aforementioned characters (Poochy, Kamek, Goonie, Eggo-Dil), as well as Bandit, any of the babies, Shy Guy, not to mention items like Yoshi eggs, red coins, or transformation bubbles. They could even make a 'Yoshi Colors' trophy which would depict various different colored Yoshis. There's plenty to choose from, but it's all very little represented in the past games, and I feel like this is very easily fixed.

Items
In terms of items, there's not too much you could choose with the Yoshi series, I think. Perhaps a Yoshi Egg could be an item, which could just be another tossable capsule (think Chansey eggs from Smash 4 and Melee). It could potentially even straight-up replace capsules altogether when playing on Yoshi stages. To be honest, though, I'm struggling to think of other Yoshi related items they could put in. Possibly a Chomp Rock? Though then they'd have to make a pushing animation for each character just for this item I think which I don't see happening.

Other Things
What other things could they add for the Yoshi universe? Probably not a whole lot, but when thinking about something like Smash Run in the 3DS version, they could definitely add some Yoshi enemies in here. We already had Shy Guys, but those were grouped under the Mario series just like Kamek was in the trophy section, so I'm not sure whether to count this. Another thing that I would like to see is more costume options for Yoshi himself, or at least all the available colors (really, having black Yoshi without white Yoshi is absolutely bonkers), but this is also a discussion for another part of the board.


To end off the opening post, I'd like to say that all this is merely kind of a wishlist of sorts. Much as I hate to admit it, Wario and DK are both more significantly distanced from the Mario universe to the point they even have a good bunch of potential fighters of their own unlike the Yoshi series and so it's understandable they'd get more representation for themselves, but as a Yoshi fan, it is admittedly a bit painful to see these series getting pulled ahead more over Yoshi. But on the other hand, with how closely Yoshi is still associated with the Mario series, I think us Yoshi fans can also count ourselves lucky with the amount of representation the Yoshi series has even gotten so far throughout the series, with Yoshi himself even being a playable character in every installment to date and the series even having its own Yoshi egg icon and different victory music to differentiate it from the Mario universe.

Anyway, what do you all think? Does the Yoshi series deserve more representation? Or do you think it's even over-represented? What kind of things would you add yourself from the series?
 

Yosher

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I mean, you and I are both big Yoshi fans, so we may be a little biased on this and all. From a Smash perspective it just kinda sucks how closely the Yoshi series is related to Mario because that's probably why the Yoshi series gets so little actual representation of its own. But then I can't help but wonder, if Yoshi wasn't so closely related to Mario, would Yoshi even be in Smash Bros at that point? Would his popularity from back in the day of the first Smash have been big enough to warrant him a spot, still? ..I really do want more Yoshi series representation even if just in the form of a few more trophies (or at LEAST get some trophies properly attached to the Yoshi series, like Kamek's and Shy Guy's), but at the same time I also think we can be thankful with the representation the series HAS gotten up to this point. It's all a bit difficult honestly, which is why I made this topic to begin with, to see what other people thought about the situation.
 

PeridotGX

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It at least an assist trophy and moving Shy Guy and the babies to his Trophy category. I wouldn't be opposed to Kamek though...
 

Yosher

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I'd love Kamek, I just sadly don't see it happening as he's not very popular at all and is always confused with regular Magikoopa and all as well, plus it's not like the actual Mario games have given him that many moveset options so they'd have to think up most of his moves from scratch which is more something they'd do for a popular, or a retro, or a WTF characters, none of which really apply to Kamek. But hey, if he does make it in, I'll certainly be happy!
 

Yosher

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That would be fun to see actually, though my guess is that they'd just use the dizzy animation for each character and just make them all unable to move. They're close enough to 'tripped as ****' animations after all and easier to program than making a seperate animation just for one particular element from one particular stage. Though I'd love to see your idea still!
 

Yoshi43DS

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I completely agree. I loved wooly world and I hope it gets some good representation.
Also, new character possibility: Poochy?

Also, I had an idea for a new Yoshi side-b Yarn ball throw from Woo,y world! I wrote more about it in my thread about Yoshi side-b ideas
 

Yosher

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I don't think the Yoshi series will get a new character whatsoever sadly, but Poochy would be a good idea, although I think he'd fit much more as an Assist Trophy. If Yoshi gets a new character, it's likely going to be either Kamek or the Baby Mario Bros, neither of which I see having much chance to begin with. But hey, who knows, maybe they'll toss us a bone.
 

Yosher

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I don't think the Mario series necessarily has bad bossfights, they're just too easy most of the time. And.. admittedly, Yoshi bossfights usually don't fair that much better in the difficulty department, but they still are more difficult at least, even if only a little bit. Since you brought it up, which bossfight from Yoshi games would you say would be fitting for Smash Bros, Zinith?

Personally I think it'd be cool if they'd somehow work Bowser's Final Smash into a bossfight, but implement a way that you can fight back (something that won't be available in normal multiplayer matches by the way of course, could be something as simple as hitting a switch on the boss-fight stage so something shoots at Giga Bowser). It'd be somewhat reminiscent of the Yoshi's Island Final Battle. It would also help, somewhat, as a little bit of a training in trying to dodge these types of 'aiming' Final Smashes as well.
 

Zinith

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I don't think the Mario series necessarily has bad bossfights, they're just too easy most of the time. And.. admittedly, Yoshi bossfights usually don't fair that much better in the difficulty department, but they still are more difficult at least, even if only a little bit. Since you brought it up, which bossfight from Yoshi games would you say would be fitting for Smash Bros, Zinith?

Personally I think it'd be cool if they'd somehow work Bowser's Final Smash into a bossfight, but implement a way that you can fight back (something that won't be available in normal multiplayer matches by the way of course, could be something as simple as hitting a switch on the boss-fight stage so something shoots at Giga Bowser). It'd be somewhat reminiscent of the Yoshi's Island Final Battle. It would also help, somewhat, as a little bit of a training in trying to dodge these types of 'aiming' Final Smashes as well.
I don't necessarily think it matters how easy the battles will be (they can be one of the earlier boss battles and I'd be fine with it), but they are MEMORABLE.

One I had in mind is Naval Piranha, and much of its body will damage you except for its naval. It can act similarly to the bossfight in Yoshi's Island except that not every character has access to projectile attacks that can do the job so it would have to have its naval exposed for a brief period of time to make up for it.
 

meleebrawler

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Well Raphael Raven is probably the only Yoshi boss to appear outside the series, in Paper Mario. The fight could take palce on an extreme version of the Mario Galaxy stage.
 

Yosher

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How would you propose Raphael to be hit though? Not every character has a Ground Pound-type attack, unless they make sure that every character that you encounter Raphael with has a Ground Pound to hit the pegs into Raphael. Or maybe you just straight-up attack him

I don't necessarily think it matters how easy the battles will be (they can be one of the earlier boss battles and I'd be fine with it), but they are MEMORABLE.

One I had in mind is Naval Piranha, and much of its body will damage you except for its naval. It can act similarly to the bossfight in Yoshi's Island except that not every character has access to projectile attacks that can do the job so it would have to have its naval exposed for a brief period of time to make up for it.
I thought of Naval Piranha as well. He does make multiple appearances in the Yoshi series after all so it would make sense. If it's a story mode though, similar to the idea above, they could simply make it so that you always have a projectile character during that fight, though considering you can't make Yoshi's eggs bounce the way they do in Yoshi's Island and even completely ignore water, of course they'd have to make it so that the navel will be above the platform enough times for the projectiles to be able to actually hit that thing.. at which point the need for projectiles is probably gone in the first place. Whatever the case it'd be an interesting fight to have in Smash.
 

Zinith

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I thought of Naval Piranha as well. He does make multiple appearances in the Yoshi series after all so it would make sense. If it's a story mode though, similar to the idea above, they could simply make it so that you always have a projectile character during that fight, though considering you can't make Yoshi's eggs bounce the way they do in Yoshi's Island and even completely ignore water, of course they'd have to make it so that the navel will be above the platform enough times for the projectiles to be able to actually hit that thing.. at which point the need for projectiles is probably gone in the first place. Whatever the case it'd be an interesting fight to have in Smash.
We do know that Yoshi's eggs bounce now. They COULD give it the ricochet effect as well, who knows...

Anyways yes, the naval going above the platform a few times is what I had in mind so not every character has to have a projectile
 

Yosher

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Yeah they bounce, but even if they ricochet, they still lack the speed to even get close to the navel if you have to do it like the OG bossfight, unless the egg either bounces a ton along the water, or bouncing off the wall gives it that much speed for it to be able to, which would be a bit silly. So yeah, having the navel go above the platform would be the way to go whatever the case, should this bossfight be implemented. It probably won't be though, regarding Piranha Plant bosses, Petey Piranha is way more popular and Sakurai knows this and there's probably not going to be 2 of them even if they represent different series. .....but, then again, they also had Ridley and Meta Ridley in Brawl's SubSpace Emissary, so who knows.....
 

Zinith

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Yeah they bounce, but even if they ricochet, they still lack the speed to even get close to the navel if you have to do it like the OG bossfight, unless the egg either bounces a ton along the water, or bouncing off the wall gives it that much speed for it to be able to, which would be a bit silly. So yeah, having the navel go above the platform would be the way to go whatever the case, should this bossfight be implemented. It probably won't be though, regarding Piranha Plant bosses, Petey Piranha is way more popular and Sakurai knows this and there's probably not going to be 2 of them even if they represent different series. .....but, then again, they also had Ridley and Meta Ridley in Brawl's SubSpace Emissary, so who knows.....
You think he'd repeat bosses from Brawl?
 

Yosher

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You think he'd repeat bosses from Brawl?
He could. Technically he already did with Ridley as a stage boss. And if you don't count him because he fights different in his appearances, Petey could too. If he makes another boss appearance, he probably won't have Peach and Zelda locked up in cages again. Just saying though, if they ever consider Naval Piranha, I have a feeling that they'll think they would piss off Petey Piranha fans if they'd put Naval in and not Petey. I mean, you know how absolutely toxic Smash Bros fans can get sometimes.
 

Zinith

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He could. Technically he already did with Ridley as a stage boss. And if you don't count him because he fights different in his appearances, Petey could too. If he makes another boss appearance, he probably won't have Peach and Zelda locked up in cages again. Just saying though, if they ever consider Naval Piranha, I have a feeling that they'll think they would piss off Petey Piranha fans if they'd put Naval in and not Petey. I mean, you know how absolutely toxic Smash Bros fans can get sometimes.
Eh, yes they can get toxic, but I'm not sure if they'd get up in arms over THAT. Anyways, [insert "why not both?" meme here]. They're distinct enough to not encroach on one another. And if it does, Burt the Bashful and Sluggy the Unshaven, etc. are always backups... :yoshi:
 

Yosher

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Eh, yes they can get toxic, but I'm not sure if they'd get up in arms over THAT. Anyways, [insert "why not both?" meme here]. They're distinct enough to not encroach on one another. And if it does, Burt the Bashful and Sluggy the Unshaven, etc. are always backups... :yoshi:
And if none of those get chosen, then here's an idea. You fight Giant Bowser at some point in the story. (Whether it's 'regular' Giant Bowser or the Giga Bowser idea I had earlier is up for debate.) After an epic, intense fight with the big guy.. you corner and fight the reason he had become so giant in the first place: Kamek! Beat him there, and you unlock him as a fighter! (Long shot, I know, but it'd be amazing if it happened...)
 

Frizz

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I've always thought that the Bandit would be a good Yoshi's Island rep. He debuted in Yoshi's Island and he's made other appearances outside of that game, like Paper Mario, Mario Party, and Mario & Luigi. And the Mini Battles could serve as source material for his moveset. He could also draw inspiration from other Yoshi's Island enemies, such as Fly Guy for an up-special.
 

Yosher

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Bandit would absolutely be a great option, but just like with the rest of the potential Yoshi reps, he's just not popular or well-known enough. Kamek's really our best bet here, maaaaybe the Baby Mario Bros, but lower class enemies don't stand a chance at all I'm afraid (or we probably would have gotten Koopa Troopa by now). Would absolutely have fun potential though, definitely agreed there.
 

Zinith

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On the subject of Yoshi characters' association with the broader Mario games, that's another thing that irritates me. If a character like Kamek or Poochy or Bandit or even Shy Guy have much more relevancy in Yoshi's games specifically, how is it fair to write 'em off by being "Mario" characters as well? I think they are important enough to be considered "Yoshi" reps
 

Yosher

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On the subject of Yoshi characters' association with the broader Mario games, that's another thing that irritates me. If a character like Kamek or Poochy or Bandit or even Shy Guy have much more relevancy in Yoshi's games specifically, how is it fair to write 'em off by being "Mario" characters as well? I think they are important enough to be considered "Yoshi" reps
Poochy never even appeared in Smash Bros though. I could have sworn he did in some capacity (like even if just as a sticker), but according to the Smash Wiki, he's never had a single appearance in the Smash games, so he's not classified as a Mario character.. yet. Same for Bandit, unless you count the 'Bandit Valley' song from Yoshi's New Island which got into Smash 4.
For Shy Guys, it does make a little more sense at least to be classified as Mario enemies because they debuted in Super Mario Bros 2 (Mario wise anyway, considering it was originally Doki Doki Panic and originally didn't have anything to do with Mario at all), but Kamek, as a character, really has no excuse. Kamek is Yoshi's arch nemesis and at the VERY LEAST he should be classified under the Yoshi series. It's really, really dumb that this wasn't the case. (Well, he did appear in the Yoshi's Island trophy case at least, but he was still classified as a Mario enemy.)
 

Mamboo07

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I have been wanting Poochy as a DLC Fighter for Ultimate and if he doesn't get in, I'm adding him to my pretend Smash Bros Eternity as a newcomer!.
Edit: Along with Shy Guy and Yarn Yoshi
 
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Yoshi_smash

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Poochy better be in smash soon, or i will not play for while
Poochy was one of characters that was voted on by people for the "Smash fighter ballot". If Poochy ever made it into a Smash game as a playable character, he would probably be a Yoshi representative (with a Yoshi egg as a symbol) -- meaning Yoshi would no longer by the sole representative of his universe.
 

Mamboo07

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Here's the representation of the Yoshi series in my Smash Bros. Eternity:
Returning
Yoshi

Newcomers
Poochy
Yarn Yoshi


Echo Fighter
Boshi (Echo of Yoshi)

Returning Stages
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Yoshi's Story (64)
Yoshi's Island 64
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Wooly World


New Stages
Crafted World
Baby Bowser's Castle (Giant Baby Bowser as a stage hazard)


Boss in Classic Mode and Smash Tower
Gator Train (Crafted World)

Assist Trophies
Zeus Guy
Fuzzy
Hector the Reflector (throws stuff at your screen causing cracks)


Smash Run Enemies
Shy Guys
Piranha Plants
Mouser
Tap-Tap
Gusty
Lunge Fish
Nep-enut
Gargantua Blargg
Smash Run Boss: Raphael the Raven or Burt the Bashful?


That's all of it.
 
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