Yoshi tongue tether

[CheetoKing69]

Why isn't Yoshi's tongue a tether to grab onto a ledge? I think it'd be cool to see what happens to the yoshi metagame if this happened.

 

[Limbose]

I think it's definitely an option the PMBR should consider. Some tweaks might need to be made with it, but to have at least his neutral B tether and probably his aerial grab would help his recovery to a remarkable degree.

 

[hamyojo]

Yoshi's recovery doesn't need buffs. Plus, that'd look very silly.

 

[CheetoKing69]

Yoshi's recovery doesn't need buffs. Plus, that'd look very silly.

Yoshi's up b gives him no vertical recovery and he's low tier as is. Who cares if it would look silly? Yoshi sticks his tongue out for his grab and his B attack anyway. It could be just what the dinosaur needs.

 

[hamyojo]

Yoshi's up b gives him no vertical recovery and he's low tier as is. Who cares if it would look silly? Yoshi sticks his tongue out for his grab and his B attack anyway. It could be just what the dinosaur needs.

Yoshi is not low tier. He has a ridiculous punish game and possible the best grab game in PM. His double jump has super armor that comes out frame 1 and lasts the entire animation, and if someone tries to footstool you you can just nair them. He also has the side b mix up, and that coupled with Yoshi's crazy air mobility almost guarantees the character will almost always last until 140% or more.

 

[CheetoKing69]

Yoshi is not low tier. He has a ridiculous punish game and possible the best grab game in PM. His double jump has super armor that comes out frame 1 and lasts the entire animation, and if someone tries to footstool you you can just nair them. He also has the side b mix up, and that coupled with Yoshi's crazy air mobility almost guarantees the character will almost always last until 140% or more.

Best grab game? His grab has a lot of lag. Both his dash and standing grabs. Nobody really makes attempts to footstool in PM, if we're being realistic. His side B is not very good, and it certainly doesn't help him last to 140% or more, as you stated. He is low tier, mid tier at best, and few people play him. None of your reasons are strong or reasonable enough for why yoshi shouldn't have a tongue teather.

 

[hamyojo]

Best grab game? His grab has a lot of lag. Both his dash and standing grabs. Nobody really makes attempts to footstool in PM, if we're being realistic. His side B is not very good, and it certainly doesn't help him last to 140% or more, as you stated. He is low tier, mid tier at best, and few people play him. None of your reasons are strong or reasonable enough for why yoshi shouldn't have a tongue teather.

We're talking about at the highest level, here. Sethlon literally comboed in to a footstool, it happens, even if it was a rare thing to happen. Just because "nobody does x-thing" doesn't mean we forget about it. And what? On 2/3ds of the cast he has guaranteed follow ups on throws, or even a chain grab. His pivot grab also has an insanely low amount of lag. You don't understand how Yoshi works or how to improve the character. A tether grab simply doesn't fit and isn't needed.

 

[CheetoKing69]

We're talking about at the highest level, here. Sethlon literally comboed in to a footstool, it happens, even if it was a rare thing to happen. Just because "nobody does x-thing" doesn't mean we forget about it. And what? On 2/3ds of the cast he has guaranteed follow ups on throws, or even a chain grab. His pivot grab also has an insanely low amount of lag. You don't understand how Yoshi works or how to improve the character. A tether grab simply doesn't fit and isn't needed.

And just because you showed me one instance of a footstool (which, by the way, yoshi did not nair as you said he would), doesn't mean that it's a strong argument. As a matter of fact, you proved your own statement wrong with your own video footage. At the "highest level of play" too. Almost everyone has follow ups on throws, so that argument is pitiful, especially considering how Yoshi's grabs are 70+ frames long and active starting around frame 20, so pivot grab or not, you're wrong. Look at the frame data. Your arguments were too weak to arrive at the conclusion that I don't understand a character. You didn't even prove how a tether "wouldn't fit" yoshi. It's really not worth listening to much of anything else you have to say. All you've done is make me feel significantly better about my argument. Please excuse yourself.

 

[didds]

The main problem with a tether recovery is that it takes away a lot of the Yoshi counterplay and also makes his "major weakness" that opponents should be trying to exploit, into a non issue. He definitely does not have the best recovery, but it's not so pitiful that it can't be worked with. There is a lot of mixup, like hamyojo was saying, involved in recovery. Even simple things like going straight to ledge when they were expecting an air dodge. If Yoshi had a tether, that means he is able to insta snap the ledge or go high with armor, adding a tether would essentially put the advantage in Yoshi's favor, which means the edgeguarder has the advantage, which simply goes against one of the objectives of the game.

Yoshi was designed as a quirky, but strong on stage character, his balance comes in the form of his exploitable recover.

On another note, a grab game isn't immediately deemed bad due to lots of lag. If you're getting punished during lag it isn't because Yoshi has a bad grab game, it's because the player made a mistake. He has a long grab range, arguably the best pivot grab in the game (this takes into account active frames, low lag, and followups outta throws).

Honestly, the best thing is to wait for Yoshi's game to develop and see what happens at top level play. If in the end his recovery is such a glaring weakness that Yoshis can't get anything done, then it will be time to change things. Buffs are just dangerous to deal with in general, and it's always better to wait and see. I, at least personally, have seen no reason that he needs recovery buffs.

 

[hamyojo]

And just because you showed me one instance of a footstool (which, by the way, yoshi did not nair as you said he would), doesn't mean that it's a strong argument. As a matter of fact, you proved your own statement wrong with your own video footage. At the "highest level of play" too. Almost everyone has follow ups on throws, so that argument is pitiful, especially considering how Yoshi's grabs are 70+ frames long and active starting around frame 20, so pivot grab or not, you're wrong. Look at the frame data. Your arguments were too weak to arrive at the conclusion that I don't understand a character. You didn't even prove how a tether "wouldn't fit" yoshi. It's really not worth listening to much of anything else you have to say. All you've done is make me feel significantly better about my argument. Please excuse yourself.

I simply disagree.
If you notice, every character's tether comes from their hand. Lucas, Link, Toon Link, Olimar, ZSS, Spider-Man... All of their tethars come from their hand! Yoshi's hands go unused in Smash Brothers, and adding hand uses to him would make him broken. Please excuse yourself from this forum.

 

[didds]

I simply disagree.

eh what do you know, do you even main yoshi?

 

[~Dad~]

And just because you showed me one instance of a footstool (which, by the way, yoshi did not nair as you said he would), doesn't mean that it's a strong argument. As a matter of fact, you proved your own statement wrong with your own video footage. At the "highest level of play" too. Almost everyone has follow ups on throws, so that argument is pitiful, especially considering how Yoshi's grabs are 70+ frames long and active starting around frame 20, so pivot grab or not, you're wrong. Look at the frame data. Your arguments were too weak to arrive at the conclusion that I don't understand a character. You didn't even prove how a tether "wouldn't fit" yoshi. It's really not worth listening to much of anything else you have to say. All you've done is make me feel significantly better about my argument. Please excuse yourself.

What the f-

o lol

 

[PlateProp]

LOOOOL

So much lol

 

[CheetoKing69]

What the f-
View attachment 36267

View attachment 36268

o lol

Lmao I put that as a joke, I'm a marth main in melee. In PM I main diddy.

Thanks didds for giving me good reasons, I see from your perspective now. Yoshi would have little weakness if he was given a tether. Me and my friends were just talking about tethers and yoshi wandered into the topic. Wanted to know what people thought.

I'm relatively new to melee and discovered PM 3.02 in late September. Just cause I'm a "smash rookie" doesn't mean I'll excuse myself from the forum. I came here to learn and enjoy the game, and just offered an idea. Glad I received feedback from a knowledgable player.

 

[didds]

the power of kindness and reasonable explanation triumphs again!

*batman applauds

 

[TomBoComBo]

Don't feed the trolls and the unbelievers people. Ignorance is hard to change.

also... Yoshi is easily high-Middle tier 3.5. He was high tier in 3.02

Yoshi clould easily live to 200% in 3.02 without a tether
Yoshi 3.5 easily lives to 140%-150% while retaining options to recover safely.
Eggroll is more than enough to keep Yoshi alive
Yoshi's grab game is godlike, lag only happens if you miss, so don't miss.
Tongue tether would not only look stupid, but is completely unnecessary and would make Yoshi's recovery almost ********. Plus it would remove the ability for Yoshi to do clutch egglay reversals off-stage

 

[didds]

this thread should be closed, everyone is on the same page at this point

 

[Limbose]

Tongue tether would not only look stupid

Okay, that's not an arguable point. You're acting as if Yoshi isn't ridiculous already. He's a dinosaur that has a shell/saddle, short arms with fingers, and boots. He licks people up and immediately poops them out as eggs. To say that a reason a tether would be bad is that it would look stupid is, if anything, supporting the argument that he should since it fits pretty well with his overall design if it looks silly.
Yoshi is not a hardcore, serious design of a character. He's eccentric and funny. Weird stuff happens. This doesn't make him any worse competitively, but from a design aspect, a tongue tether would fit just fine.

But yeah, a tether would supe-up his recovery way more than is needed, but it's a fun idea to think about.

 

[didds]

Okay, that's not an arguable point. You're acting as if Yoshi isn't ridiculous already. He's a dinosaur that has a shell/saddle, short arms with fingers, and boots. He licks people up and immediately poops them out as eggs. To say that a reason a tether would be bad is that it would look stupid is, if anything, supporting the argument that he should since it fits pretty well with his overall design if it looks silly.
Yoshi is not a hardcore, serious design of a character. He's eccentric and funny. Weird stuff happens. This doesn't make him any worse competitively, but from a design aspect, a tongue tether would fit just fine.

But yeah, a tether would supe-up his recovery way more than is needed, but it's a fun idea to think about.

You could argue that it's out of place as far as the character goes. The other tethers actually make sense; i don't think I've ever seen yoshi use his tongue as a tether in any of his games

 

[TomBoComBo]

obviously that point is an opinion. I did back it up with a technical reason of losing off-stage egglays

 

[Limbose]

obviously that point is an opinion. I did back it up with a technical reason of losing off-stage egglays

Yeah, I know. I never said anything was wrong with that stuff. I totally agree, too. I was just saying that Yoshi's already pretty ridiculous, so to make him a little more so wouldn't hurt in that aspect.

 

[Mumbo]

I so sick of people arguing things when they very clearly don't know ****. We don't need to explain ourselves to people who aren't willing to put time into understanding things themselves and aren't willing to accept that we've put a lot of time into understanding these things ourselves. @ hamyojo the next time someone straight up says "you're wrong" or "you're argument is pitiful" for no good reason and keeps pumping out their own horse****, just ignore them. We don't need it and they don't deserve our respect.

 

[Mumbo]

And on the topic of whether a tether would look silly, notice that Yoshi's tongue comes from his mouth and he grabs the ledge with his hands. There is no way to make that transition not look silly lol

 

[Limbose]

And on the topic of whether a tether would look silly, notice that Yoshi's tongue comes from his mouth and he grabs the ledge with his hands. There is no way to make that transition not look silly lol

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone was disagreeing there.

 

[Damp]

Tongue tether is the single worst idea anyone has ever came up with. Yoshi has an above average recovery. He's heavy as ****, has super armor through a long double jump animation, and eggroll. A tether would quite frankly make Yoshi over powered as hell. Ridiculous punishes, stupid good pivot grab, good edgeguards, AND an obscene recovery? Please. Learn to play yoshi before you make such a drastic suggestion.

 

[didds]

lol at such harsh responses, maybe the dude came on too strong, but everyone here is being a ****.

Stop taking for granted the fact that everyone here didn't start with such deep understandings of this game that they understand why something may be a bad idea. It can be tedious to keep explaining things to new players, but if you don't like it, don't freak out and flame them for it.

If somebody is ignorant about something, then of course they may think they understand it more than they do, it's kind of the responsibility of the more knowledgeable players to explain where the flaw in their thinking was, and do it in a mature way so the discussion doesn't devolve into a war of pride. If you don't want to explain, that's fine, but then just drop it and let someone else do it.

I literally explained why the idea was flawed and had the dude understanding my reasoning in one post, without attacking him personally.

And to guy who started the thread, you also have to understand that a lot of these dude have done a lot of work and understand the character pretty well. You might disagree with some arguments, but rather than point out what you thought was funky in a mature way, you started to attack hamyojo in a rather personal way too.

TL:DR Stop being ass holes, everyone started somewhere, understanding the nature of ignorance will help a lot if anyone here wanted to have these threads end reasonably.

 

[Mumbo]

lol at such harsh responses, maybe the dude came on too strong, but everyone here is being a ****.

Stop taking for granted the fact that everyone here didn't start with such deep understandings of this game that they understand why something may be a bad idea. It can be tedious to keep explaining things to new players, but if you don't like it, don't freak out and flame them for it.

If somebody is ignorant about something, then of course they may think they understand it more than they do, it's kind of the responsibility of the more knowledgeable players to explain where the flaw in their thinking was, and do it in a mature way so the discussion doesn't devolve into a war of pride. If you don't want to explain, that's fine, but then just drop it and let someone else do it.

I literally explained why the idea was flawed and had the dude understanding my reasoning in one post, without attacking him personally.

And to guy who started the thread, you also have to understand that a lot of these dude have done a lot of work and understand the character pretty well. You might disagree with some arguments, but rather than point out what you thought was funky in a mature way, you started to attack hamyojo in a rather personal way too.

TL:DR Stop being *** holes, everyone started somewhere, understanding the nature of ignorance will help a lot if anyone here wanted to have these threads end reasonably.

You're general sentiment is right but let me explain why this thread and the OP got me so hot and bothered, and it's not because a new player suggested a tongue tether for the umpteenth time. I get it, for people who haven't put time Yoshi, his recovery is difficult to understand, and a tether would immensely help in a ton of sticky situations. I get it, new players or non Yoshi mains can't be bothered to search the entire forum to see if this suggestion has been brought up before. I love new players. I respect new players because I remember where I started. I do everything I can to help new players. I want the scene to grow, and I want the Yoshi playerbase to grow.

What bothers me here is that OP acted like a complete asshat with no respect for hamyojo despite the fact that he had no idea what he was talking about. Being new may give him a pass for not knowing things, but it doesn't excuse him from being a ****. It's not the experienced player's responsibility explain things respectfully to a new player who is not willing to show the same respect.

If you are arguing something at all, especially if you know that you may not be as knowledgeable as the other person, instead of saying things like "that's irrelevant" or "that argument is pitiful", say things like "why does that matter here?" or "well if that's the case how do you explain: ". OP didn't do that. He instead chose to whip out his 10th grade debate team rhetoric skills pointing out the evil logical falacies behind a facade of fancy words and sentence structure to completely dismiss hamyojo.

This isn't even about the tongue tether. I think new players and more experienced players can have a reasonable and polite discussion about it, and i don't even think that the more experienced players' opinions should necessarily hold more weight.

I applaud you @ didds for being able to stay calm kind and reasonable, but I can't. I've been through this same routine a hundred times, and I'm fed up with it.

 

[Damp]

yoshi iz bad nobodie nos how to play him he obv bad so i maje better wit stage lick

 

[Limbose]

yoshi iz bad nobodie nos how to play him he obv bad so i maje better wit stage lick

Why are you so upset for no reason, dude
Chillax

 

[didds]

If you are arguing something at all, especially if you know that you may not be as knowledgeable as the other person, instead of saying things like "that's irrelevant" or "that argument is pitiful", say things like "why does that matter here?" or "well if that's the case how do you explain: ". OP didn't do that. He instead chose to whip out his 10th grade debate team rhetoric skills pointing out the evil logical falacies behind a facade of fancy words and sentence structure to completely dismiss hamyojo.

I 100% agree with this
I'm going to bed

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm just tired of seeing this thread made once a month by a random. I'm sure we all are growing tired of it

 

[Damp]

I'm just tired of seeing this thread made once a month by a random. I'm sure we all are growing tired of it

Tombo speaks da trooooof

 

[Shoto]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Flower_Grapple

 

[didds]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Flower_Grapple

well I'll be darned, tether is still not a very good idea, but i guess I can't say it's because he's never done it now.