YGD - As the snow melts, the mighty Dinosaur rises once more!

[Poltergust]

I didn't offer any input on the Fox and R.O.B. match-ups because I have no experience with those characters.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Diddy, Wario, DK, GnW, Olimar

I swear we lose to Olimar but maybe im not playing it right.

GnW is even. He has to approach and we can handle anything he does really.

Playing DK is like a combovideo waiting to happen. We can outcamp him and when we start a juggle its like never ending.

Wario ehhhh i mean i haven't played one in for ever so im really more so curious as to why he isn't even anymore.

Diddy isn't anywhere close to as bad as the characters you put for -2. I Personally find him easier than some of your -1's too. I still think he's even or slight disadvantage but hey that might just be me.

Other than that idk doesn't seem too bad. All the other matchups that i feel might be off are just due to my lack of MU exp/ knowledge of the other character.

 

[Poltergust]

I swear we lose to Olimar but maybe im not playing it right.

Nah, it's even. It was quickly agreed to by both panels without any need for further deliberation. We're both confident in this number.

GnW is even. He has to approach and we can handle anything he does really.

It could have gone either way, really. I was open to a -1 or a 0. Everyone agreed to a -1 on Yoshi, so I went along with that.

Playing DK is like a combovideo waiting to happen. We can outcamp him and when we start a juggle its like never ending.

Heh, you're just like Will. Anyways, if we were going to be listed as having an advantage over DK it won't be in this version of the chart. If I remember correctly (and I may not), one DK panelist listed Yoshi as a +2 in DK's favor, so I'm glad we got the number we did.

Wario ehhhh i mean i haven't played one in for ever so im really more so curious as to why he isn't even anymore.

I am too, actually.

It was one of the few unresolved match-ups towards the end of the project (along with Kirby, Lucas, and Mario), so it was left up to a final panel to decide it. I believe that it could still change in the near-future, though.

Diddy isn't anywhere close to as bad as the characters you put for -2. I Personally find him easier than some of your -1's too. I still think he's even or slight disadvantage but hey that might just be me.

No, I'm sure that we lose that badly to Diddy. His defensive game can be a... she-dog to handle with if you are losing (just look at my first game with ADHD at Pound V. Sure, I almost won, but it was SO difficult to break through his defenses). I chose that number due to that.

Took me a while to convince Hades, though.

Other than that idk doesn't seem too bad. All the other matchups that i feel might be off are just due to my lack of MU exp/ knowledge of the other character.

Thank you. =)

 

[~Firefly~]

Do you guys remember the early days when we thought Link hard-countered us? =p

 

[Poltergust]

I brought that up in the Link boards a couple of months ago.

Ah, the good ol' days. When we believed we went even with MK but lost hard to Samus~

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

No, I'm sure that we lose that badly to Diddy. His defensive game can be a... she-dog to handle with if you are losing (just look at my first game with ADHD at Pound V. Sure, I almost won, but it was SO difficult to break through his defenses). I chose that number due to that.

Took me a while to convince Hades, though.

How did you even convince hades? Also i saw that set.
(Quick critique)Learn to DR so you can pick up nanners easily. Learn how to use nanners, i mean dear god you picked one up and had like no clue what do do with it. Even if you do something that isn't super technical. Life for instance have you ever tried picking it up and camping with it or something? Work on not doing stupid stuff. I get that he has a good Def but i remember you jumping from half stage, doing a bair and landing on a nanner that was there for a while. You also Dash Grabbed into a nanner that was there already. Honestly i think you might just have a personal weakness vs Diddy.

I brought that up in the Link boards a couple of months ago.

Ah, the good ol' days. When we believed we went even with MK but lost hard to Samus~

lol i remember that. I used to think Link was difficult XD. And MK was easy.......yeaaah i miss that

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, I do badly vs. Diddy. I need to play with Gnes more.

(As for dash-grabbing over the banana, I was hoping the banana would disappear before I reached it. Er, I guess that didn't work out well, didn't it? )

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

That you should polt, that you should. Honestly i think you coulda won that set if you played the matchup right.
Also this is just me but i think you shouldn't throw eggs in the first like 10 seconds of the game before Diddy has any nanners out. This is where you try to get in a bit so you can keep him away from them. Makes more sense when you see it done. Diddy isn't as hard as you think D=<

Also i see Metatitan still lurks these boards.

 

[Z'zgashi]

My thoughts:

Diddy is definitly not -2. -1 for sure, no doubt.
Wario IMO is even but I'm fine with -1.
D3 is more even than his adv. Then again, not much experience here.
GW should be -2 he's hella annoying.
Kirby is even
ROB is even for sure, SO MUCH experience here it's not even funny. He's by far my most knowledgable mu.
Luigi is slightly us.

That is all.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Dude GnW isn't that hard lol theres a difference between annoying and difficult.

 

[Poltergust]

Which is why Olimar is even, Celes. ^_^

Anyways, for King Dedede it was the same reasoning for Mr. Game & Watch. Kirby, as mentioned before, was unresolved and left up to a final panel, which ultimately led to him being a -1 (which I disagree with). I've already mentioned why I didn't talk about R.O.B. (ask Hades about that), and I didn't feel right putting Luigi as a +1 in the absence of a Luigi panel, so I went with the conservative number.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Bleh... Personal weakness vs Olimar lol. Just like your personal weakness vs Diddy lol. But i dont find Oli annoying i just dont think i play it right.

 

[Depster]

Yeah, I think Fox is a -1 and that a lot of our minus ones are actually even.

 

[Z'zgashi]

GnW could just be my personal bad mu, he's not so much annoying as he is ********, he kills so easily...

 

[Deleted member]

I like the chart polt, and surprisingly agree with most of it (since they use broader numbers) but you are absolutely awful vs diddy rofl.
Falco also does not "counter" yoshi as that chart implies.

I dont think we beat ICs at all. I think its even
Lain would have ***** you terribly if he didnt drop 100 grabs XD (not discouting your win btw, just saying that if you are judging the matchup off matches where he grabbed you plenty but dropped grabs).

 

[Chuee]

It was one of the few unresolved match-ups towards the end of the project (along with Kirby, Lucas, and Mario), so it was left up to a final panel to decide it. I believe that it could still change in the near-future, though.

Lucas? lol how was that unresolved?

 

[Z'zgashi]

@socks: yoshi is also really weird to chaingrab for icies as he is more on the floaty side plus weighs a lot, meaning you have to grab early on some throws and late on others. If they try to mix up throws the timing changes drastically. If they just stick to one chain, it's easier, but they have less options.

 

[Poltergust]

I dont think we beat ICs at all. I think its even
Lain would have ***** you terribly if he didnt drop 100 grabs XD (not discouting your win btw, just saying that if you are judging the matchup off matches where he grabbed you plenty but dropped grabs).

He didn't grab me that many times, and the grabs were avoidable for the most part; I was just being dumb when falling into them.

Lucas? lol how was that unresolved?

Hades was super-adamant (like, REALLY REALLY adamant) about Lucas being a 0. I originally had it as a +1 until I decided to go along with 0. Then the Lucas panel came up with a +2, so I thought that a +1 would be acceptable there, but Hades thought otherwise. Thus, we couldn't resolve the match-up in time.

And before you ask, Mario wasn't resolved due to the inactivity of the Mario panel.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well Mario is even so it doesn't really matter lol.

And Lucas is +1/+2 so I'm happy with it.

I'm 100% adamant on yoshi vs. Rob being even though

 

[Delta-cod]

I've also been told that Yoshi is awkward to CG, but no johns at all for that. ICs should practice that one. Regardless, we do have some decent options against them, so it's not bad for us. I would never say our advantage, though.

My complaints are with Marth, Falco, Diddy, Pika, DDD, GnW, Kirby, DK, Ness, Samus, and Bowser + Ganon.

Marth isn't even bad for us, he just ***** basic habits so you need to have a good mixup game. I've played this MU a lot, and I only get ***** if I play poorly.

Falco can be gay both ways, and I don't find him nearly on the same level as MK or Fox as far as beating us goes. Diddy also falls into this.

Pikachu doesn't really have much on us. I don't really see why Pika should beat us at all.

DDD beats us, if only because of how difficult it is to get off the ledge against him and how fat he is. I played Atomsk about a month ago, and it was NOT easy to get off the ledge. This is especially a problem at kill percents, where utilt is safe against us on the ledge and covers a ******** amount of options.

I would argue GnW to be even or in our favor. We force him to approach and can handle everything he does without too much effort. Kirby falls in with this, but he has multiple jumps and is a smaller target, so he can be a pain.

DK is a free combo video.

Ness is forced to approach, pivot grab beats all his approach options pretty solidly, and we get free damage + kills on release. He doesn't string us very well, and I'm not afraid of him at all.

Samus is so easy to juggle it hurts. Her only real option when falling is Dair, which we can beat out. She's too floaty and she can't kill us, either.

Ganon is so much easier than Ganon. They definitely shouldn't have been ranked the same. =/

But overall, I'd say the list isn't too bad. I was expecting worse. =P

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, ganon is easier than ganon, which one was meant to be bowser?

 

[Delta-cod]

Which do you think?

 

[Z'zgashi]

IMO bowser is easier, but I assume you mean ganon

 

[bigman40]

I think you should play vs Atomsk again. You did know of some options and haven't tested everything regarding the ledge.

 

[Poltergust]

Marth: We actually agreed to a -3 without the need for discussion, but once we found out we had a discrepancy with the Marth panel it was changed to -2. I think that Marth's zoning game is extremely difficult to deal with, and he basically doesn't have a bad position anywhere.

Falco: Hades and I discussed this match-up to death. Trust me, a lot of thought went into this particular one. I seriously don't feel like arguing about it again. X_X

Pikachu: Play ESAM. But on a serious note, Pikachu beats us in the same way we beat Sonic. He just has a good way to fight us in most situations.

King Dedede: Are you arguing for a -2? It's definitely nowhere near that hard. Don't you Delta-cod in this match-up like you do in others? King Dedede has a much harder time dealing with projectile spam than with most other characters. Also, the ledge problem can be solved by simply not grabbing the ledge. Just recover high; it's not like King Dedede can follow you. I'd more call it even than a bad match-up, to be honest.

Mr. Game & Watch and DK: Already explained.

Ness: Play Shaky. It's sort of hard to describe how Ness plays, but he plays in a way that makes it extremely hard to get the grab on him. I think this number is perfectly fine.

Samus: While I would give Yoshi the advantage here if I absolutely had to, I went with the conservative number. Seems fine to me.

Bowser & Ganondorf: Eh, I wanted a +4 on Ganondorf, but Hades said no. I guess we don't have anything like an infinite or such on him, but the way we play the match-up it might as well be unwinnable for Ganondorf. That was my argument, anyways.

 

[Delta-cod]

That's true. Pretty much every conventional option is covered though, so I'll just have to practice some of the fancier ones.

Poltergust edit!

We actually have plenty of options to deal with Marth's zoning. If he's jumping around and zoning you with Fairs, Dash Attack, Grab, and even EGG ROLL make incredibly good ways for us to break it. If Marth is getting too aggressive with the zone, Usmash will get him. And once we break the zone, we can follow up well. We also have eggs to break the zone, as long as you don't rely on them as your only option.

Pika: We have good ways to fight him in almost every situation as well.

DDD: I do Deltacod this MU, but it's not foolproof. DDD has a good poke, good grab range, and a good spotdodge to beat our grab options. His shield is hard to break through if you do happen to try and attack him, and he's not easy to juggle at all due to his fall speed. It's not always possible to recover high because he doesn't always have to Fthrow you off the ledge. He can just drop you, or Dthrow again, and then your recovery is mid-low.

Ness: He's like an inferior Wario. Just watch his jump and make sure to catch him when he uses his DJ. I also play Ness, and I just don't feel like his air movement and range is best suited towards dealing with Pivot Grab and Usmash.

Samus: I really feel like we have an easier time than Samus does in this MU. I would put it at +1 at least, if only because we can kill her at a percent below 150 without a problem.

I can't agree with your reasoning for GnW and DK. It feels like you sorta just backed down from the opposition. At least, that's what I just got from your post.

 

[Deleted member]

@socks: yoshi is also really weird to chaingrab for icies as he is more on the floaty side plus weighs a lot, meaning you have to grab early on some throws and late on others. If they try to mix up throws the timing changes drastically. If they just stick to one chain, it's easier, but they have less options.

That doesnt affect the matchup.

Fine polt im surprisingly ok with most of your numbers so thats ight.

My complaints are pretty much falco, diddy, marth. I agree with ness, shiz is harddd delta has just never played shak3 or F OW or other top nesses

 

[Chuee]

Hades was super-adamant (like, REALLY REALLY adamant) about Lucas being a 0. I originally had it as a +1 until I decided to go along with 0. Then the Lucas panel came up with a +2, so I thought that a +1 would be acceptable there, but Hades thought otherwise. Thus, we couldn't resolve the match-up in time.

Who was the Lucas panel?

 

[Poltergust]

I forget, but I will tell you that the top Lucases who are not even part of the BBR contributed to the Lucas panel (check the credits section).

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, I know PF and FAE contributed, but they were the only ones I saw.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@socks: um, it kinda does, human error can be taken into account. For example, icies have throws on yoshi that change the timing between grabs so much that it can only leave a small window of 2-3 frames or a change in the window time by up to 12 frames. With that many puny openings and timing flips, it can be really hard, even near impossible for someone to remember/change/react to all those switches on a whim.

@polt: on a couple mu's you said you went with the 'conservitive' answer, right? Well, when you are half (probably even a slight bit more due to the others putting you > hades in their minds) of yoshi's rep, you've gotta be aggresive and tell them straight. Don't just *****foot around and throw out evens just cuz you feel bad about it!

 

[Yikarur]

We actually have plenty of options to deal with Marth's zoning. If he's jumping around and zoning you with Fairs, Dash Attack, Grab, and even EGG ROLL make incredibly good ways for us to break it.

I don't know what kind of Marth do you play but you CAN'T BE SERIOUS D:
Dash attack is slow and can be reacted too, of course you can just rush in if the Marth is dumb (I've beatn a Marth just by dash at him and upsmash because he jumped every time when I dashed in his direction)

Smart Marths are soooo hard. -2 is somehow really accurate (-3 would be stupid, not comparable with Lucario at all) and I just realized last weekend that this dancing blade is soooo annoying, he can just spam stuff over and over again that should get actually punished but we can't.
it's sad

 

[RaptorTEC]

I actually agree with Delta for Marth. Basically for the same reasons he listed.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think -2 is good for marth though. Maybe -1, but a -2 for sure from me.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, when I went for the conservative numbers, it was for match-ups I had experience in but not enough for me to argue about extensively.

Although, there were still quite a few match-ups that I was dedicated to but still lost. Wario, Kirby (both of which were ultimately out of my power, unfortunately), Sheik, Peach, and a few others were some of the match-ups I argued vehemently about but still lost in the end. In terms of match-up compromising, me and Hades went half-and-half. When it came to fixing discrepancies (there were 14, I think), I believe I won roughly 65% of them (some increasing Yoshi's number, some decreasing it).

Anyways, I'm glad that you guys found most of the list to be agreeable, at least. We obviously can't compensate for everyone's opinion, but we worked hard in creating this list to be as accurate as possible.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The only two that I still completely rage at are Diddy and ROB, but thats only 2 out of 37, so imo that's really good.

 

[~Firefly~]

I honestly don't see the issue with ROB's rating, and it's one of my most-played match-ups too... >.>

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I don't know what kind of Marth do you play but you CAN'T BE SERIOUS D:
Dash attack is slow and can be reacted too, of course you can just rush in if the Marth is dumb (I've beatn a Marth just by dash at him and upsmash because he jumped every time when I dashed in his direction)

Smart Marths are soooo hard. -2 is somehow really accurate (-3 would be stupid, not comparable with Lucario at all) and I just realized last weekend that this dancing blade is soooo annoying, he can just spam stuff over and over again that should get actually punished but we can't.
it's sad

Can you explain how dancing blade is good? I don't get it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@firefly: what in the world does rob have on us? We have an answer and more to everything he does and when we have the gyro we control the game.

@celes: dancing blade has almost no cooldown and can do massive damage when it connects. It also outranges and outprioritizes everything plus comes out fast.

 

[Sinister Slush]

My complaints are with Marth, Falco, Diddy, Pika, DDD, GnW, Kirby, DK, Ness, Samus, and Bowser + Ganon.

Marth isn't even bad for us, he just ***** basic habits so you need to have a good mixup game. I've played this MU a lot, and I only get ***** if I play poorly.

Really don't care if you people think the Marth main I play consistenly is garbage or not, It's -2. Even at my best I still get close to 90% and having a close set in both friendlies and Tournament. Nike is literally the only person I play friendlies with in SA, and out of 20 matches i'd probably have 8 or so won

DDD beats us, if only because of how difficult it is to get off the ledge against him and how fat he is. I played Atomsk about a month ago, and it was NOT easy to get off the ledge. This is especially a problem at kill percents, where utilt is safe against us on the ledge and covers a ******** amount of options.

Played a DDD last saturday, what we do to DK (aside from being extremely careful from deadly Smashes from DK) I just continued doing Egglay combos, some Egg camping, and tried to stop habit of challenging him off stage since he beats almost all our Air moves with his own. With playing more careful then usual and the help of Egglay that gave me the tournament win. (I've played Fogo's DDD too but that was back at... HOBO 28)

I would argue GnW to be even or in our favor. We force him to approach and can handle everything he does without too much effort. Kirby falls in with this, but he has multiple jumps and is a smaller target, so he can be a pain.

I haven't really played many GnW's. One Con noob at San Japan, and Derk.
But Derk alone makes me believe it's ATLEAST -1, but sure as hell not =. Even if all we do is camp and force him to approach and just continue pivoting him when he attempts Bair or Dair.

DK is a free combo video.

Agreed

Samus is so easy to juggle it hurts. Her only real option when falling is Dair, which we can beat out. She's too floaty and she can't kill us, either.

Yes she's floaty, yes we can combo off her. But I really can't say anything since only Samus main i've played is Xyro. And like Reflex with PT, Xyro IS Samus.
I'll just say it's slightly our favor...

We actually have plenty of options to deal with Marth's zoning. If he's jumping around and zoning you with Fairs, Dash Attack, Grab, and even EGG ROL-.

No, Egglay seems to be a better option in my book and just throw eggs when he's jumping around trying to space himself away from us and use Fair if we recklessly approach.

Ness: He's like an inferior Wario. Just watch his jump and make sure to catch him when he uses his DJ. I also play Ness, and I just don't feel like his air movement and range is best suited towards dealing with Pivot Grab and Usmash.

As you've said... Just wait it out and Pivot grab them once they land, they want to constantly stay in the air, throw an egg or 5.

Samus: I really feel like we have an easier time than Samus does in this MU. I would put it at +1 at least, if only because we can kill her at a percent below 150 without a problem.

On stage the highest percent she can kill you at is probably around 120-175% with Dtilt or Fsmash. For offstage, i'd rather not go after her due to her UpB and also Dair... Just camp and hope it eventually hits her while she's continuing to Ledge Drop and UpB.

I can't agree with your reasoning for GnW and DK. It feels like you sorta just backed down from the opposition. At least, that's what I just got from your post.

DK is both a heavy character and a hard hitter with quite a bit of range with both Uair plus a Bair that's a lesser version of wolfs (In my opinion) But we can combo off him easily cause of his speed size and just lag after most moves he uses on stage. (Not sure about a DK ever using Fair)
GnW is light but depending how fast they DI with Nair, can immediatly Bucket to Momentum Cancel, has a fast Dtilt with a bit more range then ours I think, Stupid Bair and Dair, an UpB that's invincible till frame 14. And depending on how well the GnW reads us, can grab us half the time if we're not careful, and tech right into an Usmash. I think his Bair can beat our eggs too, which gives me more a reason to hate it alongside his Air moves.

@firefly: what in the world does rob have on us? We have an answer and more to everything he does and when we have the gyro we control the game.

Even if we DO have the gyro, that doesn't mean a +1 ROBs favor is now +2 Yoshi's favor. He still has good moves that can make us drop it like Nair Fsmash Dsmash and his Lazers.
Plus that also (Unless you don't use Z+C-stick) makes us in a spot to where we can't use tilts/any smashes.

As for MUs I don't approve of, it's the fact Sheik and Sheilda are both -1. While in my opinion it's Even for Yoshi VS Sheik simply cause as long as we don't challenge her offstage or hell... in the AIR we have the tools to beat Sheik pretty well.