Yeah right UmbreonMow that Fox is better than Sheik

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Mew2King

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#1
um...Fox > Sheik........... stop me, I'm dying from laughter.

But seriously, Sheik has BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE recovery in case you didn't know and his/her overall combat ability is arguably the best among the characters. Here are the advantages over each character in comparison with the other.

SHEIK > fox

1) Heavier weight
2) Harder to combo/juggle because she doesn't fall as fast (Fox falls TOO fast)
3) Much better comboer/juggler
4) Ducks much lower(4th lowest in game, can even duck under Fox's Blaster on flat ground)
5) Longer reach and roll(esp. with clobbering items)
6) Much better aerial combat ability
7) HAS NO WEAKNESSES THAT CAN BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF (like fox's fast falling speed which leaves him vulnerable to small and quick juggling/comboing moves), AND SHEIK WINS MOST TOURNAMENTS AS PROOF ON HOW GOOD HE/SHE IS.

FOX > sheik

1) Better recovery
2) Can steal credit for KO's with his blaster, but only useful with a 3-4 player Timed Melee.
3) Smaller target
4) Faster runner/walker
5) Can reflect long range attacks
6) More KO power (ONLY with upward attacks)

and no a GOOD Sheik's just as unpredictable if not MORE unpredictable than a good Fox, and due to Sheik's insaine speed, he/she can counter attack well. Fox is good, but Sheik's better, and I think most people here will agree with me. Practice with him/her more.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
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#4
It'll get locked, but I'm STILL gonna respond. Maybe you could edit the subject and make it into a REAL discussion?

Anyways, Fox > Shiek

1) Heavier weight

Not by a truly noticeable margin. Both die at about 140% normally.

2) Harder to combo/juggle because she doesn't fall as fast (Fox falls TOO fast)

Being a trencher (land fighter) I always considered this a speed advantage for counter-attacks and side-step dodges. I guess it depends on your reflexes and style. I find the fast dropping a FULL advantage, and I use it often.

3) Much better comboer/juggler

Heh, they maybe tie, but Fox has finisher moves for up AND over. Fox's better throws help here too.

4) Ducks much lower(4th lowest in game, can even duck under Fox's Blaster on flat ground)

.....or you could just use Fox's deflector/Power Shield

5) Longer reach and roll(esp. with clobbering items)

oh yea? How 'bout the bat? Gives Shiek Rest (a good move, IMO) Roll doesn't matter because side-step dodge is infinately better for combos and throws. Fox can also JUMP out of an attack, an oft forgotten but elementary dodge. NO lag time can recover and still match Fox's jump speed, and Fox can still attack thanks to the faster falling speed. Nice, huh?

6) Much better aerial combat ability

But Fox wins on land, and you HAVE to land. You don't have to go in the air. Besides, air combat is inferior to land combat for limited combo purposes, a lack of finisher attacks, and a lack of a true shield. And Fox's air attacking is STILL above average.

7) HAS NO WEAKNESSES THAT CAN BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF (like fox's fast falling speed which leaves him vulnerable to small and quick juggling/comboing moves)

Heck, Pikachu and Peach have about the same frame weight as Shiek and they have no weaknesses. Even better, Peach has amazing recovery and Pikachu is better for travelling across a heavy battle field. Everyone can get out of a wak spot, depending on how well trained you are.

AND SHEIK WINS MOST TOURNAMENTS AS PROOF ON HOW GOOD HE/SHE IS.

I'll give you that. Maybe because Shiek is easy to learn. Everyone can be good with Shiek in relatively low time compared to the other characters. Shiek about ties with Mario in learning curve. No wait, Shiek doesn't even have a Cape for the player to learn :p

"and no a GOOD Sheik's just as unpredictable if not MORE unpredictable than a good Fox, and due to Sheik's insaine speed, he/she can counter attack well. Fox is good, but Sheik's better, and I think most people here will agree with me. Practice with him/her more."

Yes, I suppose so, but I've also just explained why Fox is already superior to Shiek, so Shiek loses anyways. I don't need to practice Shiek, I'm already good with her (at least I THINK it's a 'her') to the point of tournament play.

"5) Can reflect long range attacks"

Heh, any character can do that on land, another reason why land combat is better. anyways, part of being unpredictable can be launching a Charge Shot at point Blank. Ya never know ;)
 

Kyari

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#5
Originally posted by Mew2King


Sheik has BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE recovery
Meh, his recovery is only good if the player understands how good Zelda's recovery is... there are about 12 characters that have better recovery than Sheik, so you are right, but it is only better by an imperceptible margin. Fox's claim to fame is his Up+B and or Forward+B, depending on situation. But Fox's recovery > Sheik's.

his/her overall combat ability is arguably the best among the characters.
You did make one point. It IS arguable :p Sheik, along with Fox, is top tier, which shows specifically why you would make such an observation. But, her agility and speed are not indestructible, but they sure help!


2) Harder to combo/juggle because she doesn't fall as fast (Fox falls TOO fast)
Guys, I think that many will disagree, but, I prefer to juggle slower fallers because it is easier to predict and react to their landing speed. Fox lands TOO fast, correct, but sometimes to fast for comboes/juggles too. Although in the very early percentages, with certain moves it can be easy to irritate a Fox with rapid attacks that he falls to fast to air dodge out of. But in the long run, fox is not juggled as often.

Much better comboer/juggler
Sheik's aerial juggling is better, but Fox can be pestering with his tilt+neutral A combos on the ground. Sheik may overall have better juggling, but Fox comboing narrowly beats Sheik's on the ground.

Ducks much lower
Agreed.

Longer reach and roll
Yes, but Fox's is faster and sometimes a shorter roll can mean that you could do a roll+grab combo depending on area. However, a slower roll is bad, and Sheik's roll is comparably slower than Fox's.

Much better aerial combat ability
Well, Fox's game isn't heavy air, because he falls so fast. Fox can be extremely deadly on the ground; Sheik just uses the ground to move the game into the air. Fox = mostly ground tactics, and Sheik = heavy air tactics. But, a Fox, being a ground fighter, would force a Sheik to play a ground game because he is more of a ground player. This occurs very frequently in many Sheik games that I have watched; they know all too well of Sheik's air game, so they stick to the ground as much as possible. However, there is a glaring flaw in Sheik's air game: her Down+A. Much lag and bad recovery unless L-cancelled. It really isn't used anyway, but not using it means that they have an advantage when a Sheik tries to play the anti-ground game.

HAS NO WEAKNESSES THAT CAN BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF
Actually, I like to surprise people by neutral A-ing in the air while they try to pull of cheap @$$ combos as mentioned. This can be done BECAUSE of his fast-falling speed; being 2nd fastest in the whole game. The attack has pretty good knockback if hit in the right place, and it can quickly stop a combo.

AND SHEIK WINS MOST TOURNAMENTS AS PROOF ON HOW GOOD HE/SHE IS
Not really, this just proves how good Sheik players have gotten with Sheik... but have you seen tourney matches of both Fox and Sheik? Fox can really hold his own, especially because of his recovery over Sheik.

2) Can steal credit for KO's with his blaster, but only useful with a 3-4 player Timed Melee.
This is irrelevant to the general Melee play; Stock. And the likelihood of getting this to work isn't that good, and overall pointless.


Faster runner/walker
The only aspect I can see this apply to is escape. I dont generally think about running speed unless it involves two characters on the opposite side of spectrum, like Fox vs Bowser. Bowser can't run to the other side to try and edge-guard like a fast runner can, like Fox. But, overall it doesn't affect the game.

Can reflect long range attacks
You mean long-range items and weapons. Remember that some people are pretty good power shielders, so this can apply to them also. And no one in their right mid would throw, let's say, a bob-omb while about 7 game feet away from fox... I hope you can understand that. This can be an advantage, but into specifics, I have noticed that not reflecting nor powersheilding can effectively return Sheik's needles. They just hit the ground.

More KO power
For Smash attacks, this is mostly true. Sheik's sweet spot with Up+A can be pretty powerful, though. And Fox can rhythmize his smash attacks very smoothly, while Sheik cannot. Also Fox is superb at his down+throw to smash combos, and unless you manage to roll away from the smash, you gotz 0wned. It is possible to roll away, though, and I do it a lot, but sometimes the Fox gets lucky with you.

and no a GOOD Sheik's just as unpredictable if not MORE unpredictable than a good Fox, and due to Sheik's insaine speed, he/she can counter attack well.
Nah, you just haven't seen a GOOD fox. They are unpredictable as ****. When SuperJoppe's site is open again, check out some Fox videos. http://meleevids.cjb.net Watch some Fox videos, namely the Fox vs Sheik one. They all hint to his potential.

As a whole, they are very close to balanced; the difference being very minute. They equal out nicely, which makes Fox vs Sheik videos very intense and interesting.
 

Gilgamesh

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#6
Despite this topic's lameness, i'll add my two cents...

Sheik is basically better than fox because...

Unlike fox, she has no counterstages.

Unlike fox, she doesn't have a countercharacter. (yoshi? bzzzzt! wrong)

and about fast fallers, that isn't good in many cases... if not, ask peach and her downsmash (a.k.a space animal slayer)
 

Rebel2000

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#7
These topics are so stupid. The skill doesn't lie in the character, it lies in the player. All this babble is meaningless.

BTW, I'm not just saying this because I'm a Fox player. I'd say the exact same thing in a Fox > Sheik thread.
 

Kyari

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#8
Unlike fox, she has no counterstages or countercharacters.
^ Some of Gilgamesh's words of wisdom. :D

Hmm, I was too busy thinking about the individual characters than overall; Fox's main countercharacter is Peach, but what is/are his counterstages? I am guessing DK's Congo Jungle (i mean the place where there is a house in the middle, and if you get anywhere near below the plats you will eat shark or whatever those things are called). Also, wouldn't stages like that CF raceway place with the big platform, or the other places that involve large change of stage? (ie: Poke Floats or that mario boat ride thing...)

No one has been able to prove of a counter-anything for Sheik, which is why so many people win tournaments using Sheik, I suppose. As for myself, I have always had a notion that Sheik was the best anyway...

On the overall aspect, Gilgamesh is right. Sheik is better. Now that he has reminded me of counterstages and characters, and now that I recollect my thoughts on this issue, Sheik, statistically and otherwise, has the most advantages and the fewest, least-harmful-in-any-case-scenarios weaknesses. Try to find anything that can swiftly punish a superb Sheik player, and you will return empty-handed. And, forgive me if I make a mistake in this, but do the counter-stuff change for Falco and Fox? I don't believe so. This means that, since those three are top tier, then Sheik must be highest tier, unless you have a beef with that...
 

Master Sword

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#9
i agree with rebel2000 that it really depends on the player not the character.....

lets take recipherus(TG3 champ) and my brother JR(TG1 champ), who are shiek and fox players...at TG1 and TG2 when they faced each other, it seems to me that JR seems to win with ease.....at TG3 they didn't even have the chance to play each other in the 1vs1 which might have changed the results of who the TG3 champ would have been....

it really depends on the style of the person and not which character they use....
 
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#10
Come on there are obviously tiers in this game.

Sure it may be hard to decide who's better between Fox Falco and Sheik.

But I doubt that a player like recipherus will do just as great against another great player if he changed to play with Bowser or another low tier.

This is a really messed up topic, I' unsure wether to let it be open or not(since it started off with being a misplaced post). But you people just had to start a real discussion!;)
 

Wuhubettur

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#11
I can't convince myself that Sheik is quite as great as most say she is. By comparison with Fox, my pick for best character:

~I see slow falling speed as a disadvantage - quite simply, she is in the air (and vulnerable to juggling) longer than Fox, and Fox's falling speed makes him difficult to upward-KO. Sheik's aerial attacks also seem to have less priority, making her an easier air-target - consider their forward and neutral aerials.

~Fox's crazy KO-power, arguably better than Zelda's (which in turn is better than Sheik's), is a huge advantage. Sheik's most powerful KO is her up-smash, which has a small sweet-spot, compared with the enormous one of Fox's. Her up- and back- aerials are no contest for Fox's; her only KO-attacks that beat Fox's are down-smash and forward-aerial, but neither is very powerful.

~When it comes to attacks, the difference in speed between the two is negligible. Fox, however, is clearly faster in movement - i.e. jumping, running, walking, turning.

I don't care much for the "predictability" issue - each character has the same number of attacks, and it's the player's decision as to which ones he uses. Recovery is an even point - Sheik's is nothing, but Zelda's is very good, and less vulnerable than Fox's. Sheik's lack of counter- characters/stages is certainly an advantage, but not a huge one, and slightly better stats hardly throw the debate. "Ducks much lower"? Oh, please.

~FINIS~
 
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#13
Come on this is Melee Discussion M2K ^_-

You know that debating over pointless topics is the specialty! n_n


Anyway might as well add my thoughts........


Sheik > Fox

-The fast falling speed is a disadvantage, have you ever seen what happens when Fox gets caught up in repeated tilt up A attacks from Sheik? He just sits there on top of her foot getting the living daylights kicked out of him!

-You also seem to neglect Sheik is 2 characters although many people do prefer to stick with Sheik transforming into Zelda can turn the tide of the battle it can throw your opponents rhytmn out of place.

-Fox can reflect projectiles but that doesn't really matter as Sheik's Needle Storm can't be reflected and also it can easily cancel out Fox's Laser or almost any projectile for that matter also Sheik can easily duck under Fox's laser and other projectiles too.

-Recovery wise both match either in their own ways, Fox posses excellent recovery in more ways than one but if even stunned will fall to his doom. Sheik can easily recover from a any situation with Faroes Wind and Dissapear but is more prone to Edgeguarding because of the predictability of the lag.

- Sheik's tilt moves own Fox no doubting that every single one leads into some sort of comboe or juggle.

-She has no counter characters or counter stages the difference between the 2 which separates them so much is that Sheik can put up a equal consistant performance on any stage against any character. Unlike Fox who will get owned on a level like Big Blue or Poke Floats or by a good Peach player who knows how to abuse the down smash.
 

Umbreon

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#14
Originally posted by Shadow Nataku
Come on this is Melee Discussion M2K ^_-

You know that debating over pointless topics is the specialty! n_n


Anyway might as well add my thoughts........


Sheik > Fox

-The fast falling speed is a disadvantage, have you ever seen what happens when Fox gets caught up in repeated tilt up A attacks from Sheik? He just sits there on top of her foot getting the living daylights kicked out of him!

-You also seem to neglect Sheik is 2 characters although many people do prefer to stick with Sheik transforming into Zelda can turn the tide of the battle it can throw your opponents rhytmn out of place.

-Fox can reflect projectiles but that doesn't really matter as Sheik's Needle Storm can't be reflected and also it can easily cancel out Fox's Laser or almost any projectile for that matter also Sheik can easily duck under Fox's laser and other projectiles too.

-Recovery wise both match either in their own ways, Fox posses excellent recovery in more ways than one but if even stunned will fall to his doom. Sheik can easily recover from a any situation with Faroes Wind and Dissapear but is more prone to Edgeguarding because of the predictability of the lag.

- Sheik's tilt moves own Fox no doubting that every single one leads into some sort of comboe or juggle.

-She has no counter characters or counter stages the difference between the 2 which separates them so much is that Sheik can put up a equal consistant performance on any stage against any character. Unlike Fox who will get owned on a level like Big Blue or Poke Floats or by a good Peach player who knows how to abuse the down smash.
Now, I just HAVE to reply to that....

Now, Fox can do the non-smash up A to Shiek just as easily. Or, you could just stay on the ground and not get caught in the trap. Or you could neutral A out of it. Or use Reflector. Or air dodge. At high damage, even the odd Fire Fox would do the trick.

I have the feeling that Fox has a lot less trouble with Zelda than he would with Shiek. Then, you have to worry about transformation time. The 'opponents rythm'? :chuckle: I didn't know characters had a rythm, I thought they just fought. I don't think I'd like to alternate my attacks, thank you. Random is better.

Maybe you missed this, But I stated that Shiek has speed and some Needles. Needle Storm IS a good attack, I'll give Shiek that much. Fox has other good moves too, mind you. And why would a good Fox player reflect Needle Storm anyways? To get slaughtered afterwards? No, I prefer jump and Fox Illusion to take advantage of the low lag time. But that's just me. There are other ways to get around Needles I'm sure, but I haven't learned them yet. And I'm not one of those Blaster Freaks that use nothing but the Blaster. Personally, I don't see why it's so good. Shiek can duck under other projectiles, but Fox can deflect them for extra damage. Wow, tough choice :p

as for recovery, a stunned Fox can still recover without much difficulty. It just depends on your reflexes to press Up and B again. BTW, Shiek doesn't have Farores Wind, and transforming before death either gets you spiked or leaves Zelda DEAD open when she lands, and she will usually land in Fox's up smash =/

Fox's tilt moves are 2 jugglers (up and down) and a knockback kick (over), while Shiek has 2 jugglers (up and over) and a knockback kick (down). I tie I suppose, except that you can change the height of Fox's tilt over. Hmm, close.

Oh, a counter character, I've soiled myself :rolleyes: Seriously, how did Shiek change into Peach? That's a pretty good trick. I'm trying to point out that Fox is not weak to Shiek. Fox isn't really bad on any course, depending on your reflexes. If your reflexes suck, then you'll die a horrible death at stuff like Big Blue. Otherwise, Fox is very good at most any arena. And Shiek dies a horrible death at Battlefield :cool:
 

BeeboW

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#15
Umbreon, there are a lot more reasons as to why shiek is better than fox, although not by much. Just take a look in the MBR tiers thread and you will see various reasons posted. Also a lost of your reasons are flawed and you make a confusing argument to back up your points.
Fox can do the non-smash up A to Shiek just as easily. Or, you could just stay on the ground and not get caught in the trap. Or you could neutral A out of it. Or use Reflector. Or air dodge. At high damage, even the odd Fire Fox would do the trick.
Unlike what you are saying, if a sheik is "tilt forward a"-ing fox, he's going to get slaughtered. You can argue as much as you want against this point but it still holds. With most other characters, this can only be done a few times, but due to his fast fall speed, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH RECVOERY TIME to do the things you listed - air dodge; reflector etc... - so in other words he gets bumslammed. Even at high damage, you would not be able to fire fox out of it, purely because of the fact that her "tilt forward a" is not a knockback move, ie fox wont get knocked very high at all...combine that with his fall speed ....blah blah
Yeah sure, "tilt up a" with fox can juggle, but it only hits from behind, which is the only weakness, and plus shiek is not a fastfaller which means she cannot be juggled by this move repeatedly.
And why would a good Fox player reflect Needle Storm anyways? To get slaughtered afterwards? No, I prefer jump and Fox Illusion to take advantage of the low lag time.
Eh? this is your solution? I would like to inquire as to whether you get a good but-****** after you use this method of yours? Because frankly, its kinda lame...:crazy:
Personally, I don't see why it's so good. Shiek can duck under other projectiles, but Fox can deflect them for extra damage. Wow, tough choice
Fox cannot reflect shiek's needles.......since you said that this is argued on a basis between fox vs shiek and not in general terms, how can you make this statement?
BTW, Shiek doesn't have Farores Wind, and transforming before death either gets you spiked or leaves Zelda DEAD open when she lands, and she will usually land in Fox's up smash
Only a noob would transform when your near the stage, you transform after the first jump if you cannot make it, which results in a lengthy distance from the stage so you would not be able to get spiked....
No it will not lead to an up smash! You have directional control of the up+b!! Gosh you can simply just do it so that you grab onto the edge.....do i hear an up smash now? Noooooooooo...
Fox's tilt moves are 2 jugglers (up and down) and a knockback kick (over), while Shiek has 2 jugglers (up and over) and a knockback kick (down). I tie I suppose, except that you can change the height of Fox's tilt over. Hmm, close.
Wrong! Fox's down tilt can only juggle at very low percentages. Shiek doesn't only have two tilt juggles! All of her tilt moves juggle...including down...sheesh:confused:
 

Yoshi

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#16
Yoshi's opinio of Sheik and Fox McCloud

Both are equally good characters, it just depends on the type you want...

With fox McCloud, I find him and Falco both cheep. I'll mainly focus on Fox here. He has that ****ed ray gun, shooting like 4/s. His combo's aren't as quick neither funny to watch, but good nevertheless. His quickness with the B> is helpful, to zoom into place, but also lacks distance. However, it's quick.

His A attacks are bacis, but partily powerful if excuted correctly. His A^ is good for throwing the oppoent up. umping and doing the aeril A is a good combo to use to. A over I only specially use to throw the oppoent away, and blast em with the fox Blaster, another good combo. A down came thing, used to blow the oppoent away.

His B attack's in my opinion are slightly cheeper. His gun first off is a rapid fire, landing 2%-4% each blast! That alone can land alot of damage, for beginner players. If your on the advanced side, read on. His B ^ of course is his recovery, and cheep to. If your near an oppoent, when he starts up, it lands like 10% damage, then the bonus 20%ish if hitting hitectly! His B > as I said before, is good to use for zooming to places, short distances away. His B down I find the best! You can reflect alot of the projectiles and ****, very cool.

His combo's I know are cool. Grabbling the oppoent, kicking em a few times, and throwing em down. Then, quickly use his reflector, to make the oppoent partly away.
Another good combo is jump plainly using his aeril attacks, cuase there quick to land.

As for Sheik, she's a different story, since sahe's in my opinion quicker in speed and attacks. But unlike Fox, I think overall weaker.

Her A attacks are complex enough, to powerup, but strong if fully powered. Hey plain main a is good; partly cheep but good. It's good to get damage, if the oppoent it up against a wall.The A> it also good, cause it basically pulls the oppoent wither infront or behind you, making a second attack of anythig possible, a good combo in my opinon. Her A ^ is also good, and one of the better finisher attacks. It is a 2 hit one, and fairly powerful, if fully powered. The A down is cool to, just cause it's like Sheik is break dance fighting (Zoolander).

Her B attacks are in my opinion, just as cheep as Fox's, and really simular two! The B, a 6 hit combo I believe, but fairly quick to attack, but slow to gain power. The B > is so cheep especially if you hold that B button. The chain will stay there and just continue to hit the oppoent, fairly good combo for a keep away move. The B^ is short distance, but if close enough, will hit the enemy. The B down changes Sheik back into Zelda, and ya...

In my honest opinion, after saying all of that, I'll say Fox is better, cause I'm Fairly good with Falco Lombardi, his counterpart. Sheik and Zelda are powerful, but Sheik alone in my opinion is only speedy, with weak attacks. :p Thankyou for my time
 

Kyari

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#17
if i have to burn 1 more CD, i will go CRAZY

I have thought about this issue for a while now and I can see that it is getting under some people's skin. Therefore, I will try to do a better job at explaining this than I did the last time. Since I don't feel like flaming anyone, or doing my usual, which would be quoting :D, I am just going to state everything I can about Fox and Sheik... or at least everything that will come readily to my mind right now. Take into consideration when reading that I use Sheik more than Fox, and I like Sheik better, but I am trying to be 100% non-biased about everything that I say. If I get out of line with this, remind me of it. But I will try to be as accurate as possible throwing in almost 0% of bias into my argument. (I don't know how this got to be so large, so this must be a two/possibly three post documentary on the comparison. If this is useless, I am going to be SO pissed... :mad: )

`_-~O=FOX=O~-_`

(Sorry about the lame attempt to make a cool 'what-chimacall-it' :D)

Overall, Fox's game is primarily a ground game. This is self-evident in his falling speed; which is in the 12% for quickness among all 26 characters; a.k.a. the top 3 placements. He can play air, but his main reason for going into the air, without going into specifics, is to pull of a surprise <+A or neutral A. His Up+A is almost entirely situational, and isn't commonly used due to its lag, since most opponents will try to use an attack whilst in the air, and if used early is usually out-prioritized (this move has been VERY watered down from the original SSB, which makes me want to cry :(). Also, Fox is much more formidable on the ground overall. He is definitely not a specialist, for his specials are either for recovery purposes or reflection (sometimes a surprise reflector can lead to combos, but mostly its used in the air if not for reflection. Also, he could decide to powershield instead), his laser is virtually useless against even mediocre people that understand the concept of jumping to avoid this weak, non-stun projectile. His advantages lie in his A attacks, weight and recovery. His lack of exploitable weakness (save his falling speed in some situations) and his many strong points are what make him and his lackey top tier.

Up+B - Used strictly for recovery; sometimes replaced by F+B, and is somewhat of edge guarding bait due to its long, long lag. The upside to this is the random directional capability, which is why it is used most often for recovery.

F+B - Not often used at all, but if it is used, it is for recovery. Not very reliable if used after below the stage, if you catch my drift ;)

D+B - One of the two ways to reflect an attack; nothing particularly fabulous but it can be used in a few situations that exclude reflection.

B - IMO, one of the least useful moves in the game. Argue if you must...

His recovery - The speed at which he falls is the main reason he isn't one of the best recoverer's. However, his Up+B and F+B have very good distance to them, so his recovery is above average. His weight also attributes to his good recovery status.

Counter-characters: This list is without any listening to other people about Fox, so I may not have had enough time or a good enough opportunity to know every counter for him.

Peach :) Sorry of my lack-of-information...

The reason for this is because Peach's style of attacks can often be abused against a Fox's fast falling speed; often times the Down+A always connects and if other moves are used, Peach could get into a throw combo or two. Peach is the most obvious counter-character.

Counter-stages: Any stage that has either a changing environment or Jungle Japes.(By the way, UmbreonMow, due to his fast falling speed, there are some places where he will finally regain the ability to control himself after an attack when he is below a platform; and if he is directly under a platform, it is nearly impossible to fall downward while having enough space below to not die and use his Up+B. Consider Termina Bay, Jungle Japes, Poke Floats, and any other similar stage. In a lot of scenarios, having even superb reflexes can't balance out this HUGE detriment). Basically, Peach vs. Fox in Termina Bay is, well, evil. :demon:

Fast-falling: The disadvantages that come with this, that have already been stated, greatly outweigh the advantage, which is not being juggled as often. Also remember that this makes it harder for him to juggle as well, further proving my point about his game being mostly ground. Good people can avoid juggling even without being a fast faller; as juggling isn't the be-all end-all of strategies. Air-dodges, which have been added to attack cancelling/out-prioritization, delegates that idea.

Neutral A: This attack is a good stringing move as long as you remember to not get him into his multi-kick stage of it; which takes some time to get out of and is easily out-prioritized. Since this move is usually the last move of the combo, and it doesn't have any knockback, a decent-range move can make Fox suffer for taking it this far. Some lighter opponents (which is roughly 27%) are sent too high by this move, in a very wide range of percentages, to be comboed or even juggled, and sometimes the light opponents can neutral A in your face. Don't overdo your neutral A'ing, and it can be helpful in racking decent damage.

Dash A: This attack has decent execution time, and is good for setting up an aerial Back+A.

Tilts(referring to A attacks):

Forward: Good to setup for a running+A, which can then lead to an aerial back+A. This has moderate range to it, and it is a good way to end a neutral A combo.

Down: This can be deadly if used against the upper quadrant of light opponents when at around 90% or higher; sometimes making a surprise KO. Not the best of comboers, but against a heavier opponent at a very low percentage it can lead to some sort of Smash or another combo.

Up: Not terribly useful, as it has bad range and is mostly out-prioritized by air attacks, but it can help you get them into the air if they are behind you when it is used. Overall it is a shabby move. (Did I say that wrong? lol)

Overall his tilting game is used either to combo or to lead into smashes. Good moves in general.

Smashes:

Up+A: This attack has a remarkable sweet spot range. If used even directly in front of the opponent, it can KO without much difficulty. Also, the attack has little lag and good recovery time, which makes it a commonly used move in Fox's arsenal.

F+A: This attack has, also a great sweet spot range AND it has overall good range of hitting. If an opponent rolls away from you, this attack can be used swiftly and effectively. It also has great KO potential. This attack also can be stringed across the stage, putting pressure on your opponent to go into the air.

D+A: This attack is great edge-guarding for people that need to recover vertically, as it sends them downward and to the left/right, and because it is so strong, it leaves little chance for them to recover from it. Also has ability to hit behind Fox, and it will send the opponent flying in many cases when hit from behind. This is arguably the best move to use in his throw combo, as it has almost no lag and less recovery time than a roll-tech.

His smashes are a significant chunk of his overall strengths, and also the main reason for his top-tier status.

Aerial attacks:

Neutal A: Is usually used in combination with a small jump. Has moderate knockback and can send opponent a good distance at a relatively high %. Sometimes it can be replaced with his backwards+A, if opponent is situated correctly.

Forward+A: Has reprehensible recovery time, horrible knock back unless the 3rd kick is used, and by the time the 1st two hits are used the opponent won't be close enough for the third hit. Takes forever to use, and very unreliable.

Down+A: Not used very often, for the fact that it is easy to out-prioritize and doesn't do a whole lot of damage and doesn't send them anywhere. This fact differs when considering Falco, which uses his D+A as an excellent spike useable with small jump or high/normal jump, and also has more difficulty in being out-prioritized by other attacks.

Back+A: His best air move, IMO. It has good knockback if used from behind, and can hit from his front if necessary. Has little lag but a semi-bad recovery time, nothing which can't be made up for with good L cancelling ability.

Up+A: Although it doesn't inflict a great amount of damage, it has monstrous knockaway, and can send people below 70% into a KO if connected. However, it has a bad lag to it, and if used at the end of execution time doesn't do jack sh*t damage or knockaway.

Throws: Fox can quickly sidestep dodge, which helps in throwing people when they try to attack you. He has moderate range with it, and he can run+throw with the best of them.

Up: Nothing special except that it helps his aerial up+A attack. Not always the case, though.

Back: Again, nothing particularly amazing, but it has decent throwback to it.

Forward: If used at low %'s, it can lead to his godly F+A smash attack or other attacks. Doesn't send opponent very far, which, in Fox's case, is a good thing.

Down: It has potential to become a throw combo, and he can use many attacks other than his smashes, like his Down_A tilt attack mentioned above.

He has pretty good throwing abilities, and they are definitely something to consider; mixing up his strategies in a fight.

Overall, Fox has an advantage over many characters due to his strength, speed, and recovery. However, his weaknesses are noticeable, and can be exploited by good characters or by his counters, being characters or stages. The Sheik part of this will be in a second post, for this one is pretty much maxed out.
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,848
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
#18
^>&-_%)SHEIK(%_-&<^

(Again, my lack of creativity startles even me :D)

Sheik's style takes a bit of a turn from Fox's in that he is a bit more versatile. He can do excellent with many tilt attacks on the ground and his smashes can lead to other attacks, his throws can be abused in combos on the ground as well. However, Sheik shines most in the air, where he can sometimes manage to COMBO. Not juggle, COMBO. :D Sheik has a few more options than Fox does due to the variability in style. However, Sheik is DEFINITELY not a heavy specialist; due to the following reasons.

Up+B: His only recovery move. It is a bit of edge hogging bait because it usually doesn't get you past the edge easily.

F+B: His chain, although some may prefer it, doesn't do a whole lot of damage or knockback, and has a lot of lag AND recovery time.

D+B: Transforms into Zelda, which can be handy for a couple of reasons later mentioned.

Neutral B: Sheik's needles are handy in cancelling out projectiles, and they can be excellent edge guarding tools, especially against the Fox team, CF, or anyone that has a recovery move which has enough lag to predict when they will reach the level of the field. These are primarily used to disrupt the opponent's rhythm, and if you quickly counter a projectile with a full set of needles, you can run into them and combo at will. It is Sheik's most useful B move.

Recovery: Sheik's recovery is nothing to brag about whatsoever, but remember Sheik's trump card: If sent VERY far off stage, instantly transfigure into Zelda. His Up+B has the best distance for being a single move, and has directional variability which can be helpful in a variety of situations. Also remember this: By the time Sheik is so far off stage that she requires this plan to be used, you must transform into her IMMEDIATELY and use her Up+B when you get near the stage. Zelda's floatiness attributes to the increase of the technique's usefullness. Try to get familiar with Zelda, because it isn't likely that you will have a chance to return to Sheik until you KO them.

Counters: There is no character that is statistically advantageous over Sheik, AND unlike fox Sheik has no weaknesses that any particular character can take advantage of. This is why many people regard Sheik as being better than Fox. Also Sheik has no counter-stages. He can wall-jump, so he can easily save himself from falls in places with columns of walls, and can easily manipulate himself around areas because of this. Fox can walljump, but this is offset by his falling speed which makes this only useful for recovery.

Juggling: One of Sheik's many strong points is that she can make a juggle look like a combo, and vice versa. Few attacks can out-prioritize his aerial attacks (save the aerial down+A), and two of them have a very useful sweet spot location. Also if the sweet spot doesn't hit, the knockback is significant enough that he can fast fall and attempt another attack. The most notable thing about Sheik is that almost ANY attack used can lead to almost ANY other attack; which is why everyone complains about Sheik's unpredicatability.

Neutral A: Basically, take the same strategy as Fox does. Don't let Sheik engage his rapid punch, but use the neutral A to small-string or use it once/twice to lead into a tilt attack then a smash/throw, or skip the tilt attack altogether. Also lighter characters tend to not be affected by the neutral A's usefullness, just as Fox's. And lighter characters usually dont get tilts used as much on them, but after a couple of tilts Sheik can already begin to juggle incredibly close to the ground.

Dash+A: This attack can be countered if noticed, so try to make the usage of it as unpredictable as possible. It has somewhat of recovery time, so if they happen to sidestep, get ready to get pumelled with just about anything. This is Sheik's second most damaging weaknesses, but remember: it isn't a necessary move.

Tilts:

Forward A: This attack takes part in the majority of Sheik's combo's. It has decent stun, great recovery, long execution time, no lag, and can easily lead into his tilt up or a throw/smash/air attack.

Down A: The least useful of his tilts, but it is by no means a bad move. It's range can cancel out a surprising amount of attacks, and against lighter characters gives Sheik the opportunity to do a tilt up+A or start his amazing juggling schemes.

Up A: This move, coupled with Forward tilt A, can add much variety to his many combos. In some cases, you can choose to either use this or use forward tilt A, but in most cases you must choose one over the other. At any rate, it is very useful, and can quickly lead his to an aerial back+A.

Smashes: Sheik seems to receive a lot of ridicule for the lack of strength in his smashes; and this is true. But his superb aerial abilities makeup for this weakness, and it isn't something that a character can really exploit anyway. However, people just seem to have the misconception that Sheik's smashes were meant to KO; they weren't. They are to end/begin/continue combos that eventually get the opponent into the air for his air techniques do to their magic. And if you connect in a sweet spot (which can sometimes be done surprisingly during a combo), then you will notice just how effective his up and down smashes can be.

Up+A: This can be used on an opponent above and to the right or left in addition to directly above him. It isn't extremely common for a Sheik to use this more than 7 times in a 20 stock match, but it is not a move to discredit.

Down+A: This attack's main purpose is to ward off someone who is putting the pressure on you, seeing as it can attack some people to the above+left/right as well as people in front/behind. It is a clearance move, much like Fox's except less power, and much like Jiggly's except more range (and some power deduction). Sometimes it can begin combos, depending on the distance the opponent travels.

Forward+A: His least useful smash attack. If used properly, it can continue, begin, or end a combo. However, if used incorrectly, it can lead to dire consequences; such as people having the time to attack from behind since it lasts so long and doesnt attack from behind. This attack doesn't have much lag or recovery, but the fact that it is a two-hit attack can leave Sheik at a disadvantage if this is used wrong. This is probably Sheik's biggest weak point; use sparingly.

As you might infer, his smashes are differently used than most smashes are. But they blend into his game perfectly.

Aerial: This is where Sheik shines (as if he didn't shine anywhere else...)

Neutral A: Most likely his second least used aerial move, second to his Down+A. This is because his Forward+A can hit much better, and the situations where this is necessary is very uncommon.

Forward+A: An attack that can out prioritize many attacks and has amazing knockback. It is swift and probably Sheik's strongest move that doesn't require a sweet spot to get excellent results.

Down+A: An overall bad move; bad lag and recovery time, sends the opponent in an awkwardly up position. Easily out-prioritized.

Up+A: An attack that can KO is so many situations. It has a sweet spot that, if used, can KO under 100%, and has good execution time, no lag and little recovery time. Its regular knockback is also remarkable.

Back+A: This attack is usually used when the opponent is closer to the horizontal doom than vertical, and for good reason: It's decent sweet spot range has great knockback, and it can be used to fast fall and go into another attack. However, if you are facing your opponent, try using his aerial Forward+A instead.

Throws: Sheik's throws are some of the most combo-ready throws I've ever seen; and Sheik can use them in multiple situations.

Up: Great for setting up his deadly air game stratagems.

Down: Decent throw comboer, but Fox's beats Sheik's to the punch. Not bad, though.

Forward: Pretty good combo-ready throw; good to use when following up with a Dash+A.

Backward: Same as Forward.

Overall: Sheik's variability and strengths, followed by the fact that she has the fewest exploitable weaknesses, and NO counter characters+stages, is why people tend to believe that Sheik is better than Fox. The lack of weaknesses is a valued strength in itself.

Fox and Sheik are both very effective characters, but Fox's gameplay is more specific than Sheik's, thus Sheik is harder to counter. Also, Fox has more weaknesses than Sheik does, and there is no way to take advantage of a practiced Sheik player WHATSOEVER. This is why Sheik is regarded as better than Fox and this document of mine was created to prove that.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
15,531
#25
nah jason is still the homie. big fan.

but if i type "umbreonmow" into google and the first thing i see is this page, i want to look like a boss.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
689
Location
San Francisco, Venezuela (not the famous one)
#28
Now, I just HAVE to reply to that....

Now, Fox can do the non-smash up A to Shiek just as easily. Or, you could just stay on the ground and not get caught in the trap. Or you could neutral A out of it. Or use Reflector. Or air dodge. At high damage, even the odd Fire Fox would do the trick.

I have the feeling that Fox has a lot less trouble with Zelda than he would with Shiek. Then, you have to worry about transformation time. The 'opponents rythm'? :chuckle: I didn't know characters had a rythm, I thought they just fought. I don't think I'd like to alternate my attacks, thank you. Random is better.

Maybe you missed this, But I stated that Shiek has speed and some Needles. Needle Storm IS a good attack, I'll give Shiek that much. Fox has other good moves too, mind you. And why would a good Fox player reflect Needle Storm anyways? To get slaughtered afterwards? No, I prefer jump and Fox Illusion to take advantage of the low lag time. But that's just me. There are other ways to get around Needles I'm sure, but I haven't learned them yet. And I'm not one of those Blaster Freaks that use nothing but the Blaster. Personally, I don't see why it's so good. Shiek can duck under other projectiles, but Fox can deflect them for extra damage. Wow, tough choice :p

as for recovery, a stunned Fox can still recover without much difficulty. It just depends on your reflexes to press Up and B again. BTW, Shiek doesn't have Farores Wind, and transforming before death either gets you spiked or leaves Zelda DEAD open when she lands, and she will usually land in Fox's up smash =/

Fox's tilt moves are 2 jugglers (up and down) and a knockback kick (over), while Shiek has 2 jugglers (up and over) and a knockback kick (down). I tie I suppose, except that you can change the height of Fox's tilt over. Hmm, close.

Oh, a counter character, I've soiled myself :rolleyes: Seriously, how did Shiek change into Peach? That's a pretty good trick. I'm trying to point out that Fox is not weak to Shiek. Fox isn't really bad on any course, depending on your reflexes. If your reflexes suck, then you'll die a horrible death at stuff like Big Blue. Otherwise, Fox is very good at most any arena. And Shiek dies a horrible death at Battlefield :cool:
As you can see here folks, this is way back then when umbreon had emotions, as portrayed with the :cool: and the :grin:

amazing discovery really
 

xCardiac

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
86
Location
Peabody, Massachusetts
#40
Pichu >fox/sheik tbh

I can smell the mummification on this thread..

In all honesty, I think that in "frame perfect play", fox would beat sheik. In the current metagame, I believe that sheik is better! Come on, those tilts are GODLY and can combo a spacie fahhdaaaays.
 
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