WTF Gluto? Aggressive vs Defensive

[StarFruit]

EDIT: Most people like to stick with the defensive aspect of not just falco but many characters. However I'm looking to see some ways to hone the aggressive playstyle and mix it in with the defensive. I've seen success so far from few that have tried - but i'm looking for more. If you have videos, ideas, ways to use ATs, mindgames, etc., please share!

Intro: Okay so as many of us know, Falco has great potential as a defensive and camping character. With excellent spacing and a few ATs up your sleeve, you're good to go. My question is...what makes aggressive falcos so good and are they better than defensive? The term "aggressive falco" doesn't come into play much with the better players, with a few exceptions. Lets use glutonny (or however he spells it) for example. Most of us know that he plays wario and is pretty damn good with him. However i've seen videos of his falco that are rediculous. I've watched these videos over and over but just can't figure out what he does that makes his aggro falco so boss. And also, is playing aggressive really worth it with falco? I can note that people like gluto do risky things which raises the question - Is falco better as Defensive or Offensive? It would be interesting to see what everybody thinks on this. Falco has so much camping potential but what about a different approach. Discuss.

Things to Consider about aggro and defen. play styles.

Aggressive - anybody can play aggressive. with mindgames and reads, you are already one step ahead of the game. (however they can't be relied on alone)
- falco has AT's that are positive towards an aggressive playstyle...(fast bdacus that gets distance, lasers which stun, boost grabs to cg, etc.)
- putting pressure on anyone is going to force a mistake eventually
- Decent kill moves (mostly smashes with limited gimping ability)

Defensive
- Falco has incredible camping ability (i'm talking pew pew here) and decent air travel speed
- Unpunishable moves such as ftilt or in many cases his bdacus in a pinch
- laser camping puts pressure on the opponent to attack you...while they figure out how to get out of the lasers, you figure out how you're gonna punish dat, etc.
- fantasm (used lightly otherwise its too predictable)

these are just some basic things to consider when thinking about which falco really is better. also here are some videos of the best defensive and offensive falcos.

Defensive - DEHF vs. M2K at apex - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rh3laUIhoQ&feature=related
Aggressive - Glutonny vs. Leon - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtComtGR4cA

Notice the major difference, DEHF waits to approach and stays back a bit while Gluto really doesn't feel the need for proper spacing

Also there are many other aggro falcos, i just chose to use glutonny for this example

 

[I Dair You]

Aggro Falco is only effective if your opponent has trouble handling Falco's gimmicks. If they spot your overaggressive style, they can simply sit in shield and punish every attack, considering Falco can't kill from a grab til over 300%. Falco's moveset is ideal for reacting to basically anything, but this strat only works if you dont approach and exploit their offensive openings. Imo Gluttony's Falco would get ***** if he played aggro vs a top US player.

 

[MARLX]

Aggro Falco is only effective if your opponent has trouble handling Falco's gimmicks. If they spot your overaggressive style, they can simply sit in shield and punish every attack, considering Falco can't kill from a grab til over 300%. Falco's moveset is ideal for reacting to basically anything, but this strat only works if you dont approach and exploit their offensive openings. Imo Gluttony's Falco would get ***** if he played aggro vs a top US player.

Adding to what I Dair You said for aggro falco, I will tell defensive. The defensive can get more damage with out taking any chances. They aren't as clumsy as aggro because there isn't much to mess up on. (The only thing is the cg to stage spike or gatling combo.) Other than that there isn't much techniqal about defensive just laser and some phantasms/ Ftilt. But for killing people is more difficult than for aggro falco's because they personaly play far away so they may use bair or ledge guard recovery. Also maybe Dacus/Bdacus for the kill. THAT IS WHY DEHF IS THE BEST...

 

[StarFruit]

I do agree that an aggressive style is more dangerous and risky, but i think it could catch the opponent off guard. Defensive falco still does trump Offensive based on evidence, i would like to see some aggressive support though, i'm not sure if that exists on the boards though. Any other ideas? I'm also gonna throw in the intense precision is required with the aggressive style. After all, falco can die at low percents.

But then again, I Dair You, Mr. R is questionably on of the best marths in the world (if not mikeHAZE) He also beat ally in a set with his uber aggressive wario.

 

[I Dair You]

LMAO thats because Marth and Wario actually have kill options. Try playing Falco aggro (especially when your opponent is at kill %) and see what happens. Falco's kill options are HORRIBLY telegraphed... Unless youre shielding waiting to upsmash or bair oos, odds are you're gonna get punished for trying to force the kill.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Aggro Falco isn't always the best choice. Defensive Falco > Aggressive Falco

 

[-DR3W-]

It all just depends...of course there are pros and cons of each...but there are also different factors that affect how the match will turn out.

Depends on your personal preference, your opponent's character, what % you're both at, your opponent's playstyle and how good you are at both kinds of playing.

 

[Conviction]

Both combined is the best Falco. WITH OUR POWERS COMBINED...I AM CAPTAIN PLANET

 

[StarFruit]

@Dair - I never actually said that aggro was better, but i'm looking to improve the aggro game. Both can be useful I guess and DR3W raises a good point

 

[MARLX]

Aggro defencive

So who wants to make a thread for pros and cons for aggro/defensive so starfruit can see the results that he or she wants to see. And for the other faclos to see results for defensive. Does it sound like somthing that can be settled or a done deal?

 

[StarFruit]

I think we should develop just an aggressive play thread. Almost all of the falco boards is about a defensive approach...I do agree that falco is ment to be defensive now but i like some pressure and aggressive-ness can be beneficial.

oh and btw i'm a guy

 

[iFudge]

aggro falco only works, when you have complete control of the match and your comfortable the person your facing like gluttony was,
Im sorry but if im at a big tourney 50+ ppl yelling at me in the background, im gonna play defensive falco,
aggro falco would get me shield grabbed and *****.

basically aggro falco is just a fun way to play him in friendlies, or your playing a noob.

being postitive since TC has fallen into the euro disease. To pull this off your gonna need godly reaction, and have really great execution

 

[Kuro~]

LMAO thats because Marth and Wario actually have kill options. Try playing Falco aggro (especially when your opponent is at kill %) and see what happens. Falco's kill options are HORRIBLY telegraphed... Unless youre shielding waiting to upsmash or bair oos, odds are you're gonna get punished for trying to force the kill.

Lol that's every character.


Also there isn't a best. Once your in an advantageous position you go aggro to pressure the disadvantaged opponent. Until then it's best to be defensive because it makes their approaches much more linear which leads into easier punishes/reads by you which lead into the advantageous position mentioned above.

Imo.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

aggro falco only works, when you have complete control of the match and your comfortable the person your facing like gluttony was,
Im sorry but if im at a big tourney 50+ ppl yelling at me in the background, im gonna play defensive falco,
aggro falco would get me shield grabbed and *****.

basically aggro falco is just a fun way to play him in friendlies, or your playing a noob.

being postitive since TC has fallen into the euro disease. To pull this off your gonna need godly reaction, and have really great execution

Hey man those Euros taught me some stuff

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Playing to rush with Falco in your opponents face can work. I have thought it was never a matter of what is best anymore in theory, but rather what you opponent has issues dealing with. If your opponent works best when the pressure is laid off, it might be better to start applying pressure and make them confused and see how it goes.

I am always surprised how well characters can be played simply by baiting your opponent into doing something that can be punished. Falco has enough mix-ups to make stuff work with a pressure game. It is true that he is not best at it because as we have known for years, falco's stuff is not MK safe, but just really good.

So, there is no real question about what Falco's best at. The best thing to take away I think is that there are multiple ways to use your character than simply the same old same old. Once again, it all goes back to understanding the multitude of ways on how to use your character and apply what works well against your opponent. Whether if spamming, camping, pressure, baiting or some other strategy works best or at different times.

 

[swordsaint]

human error

 

[M@v]

I don't see the point of being aggro in 1v1s anymore unless your way behind, or can get an obvious gimp.

1.Stay in one place and camp like crazy
2. Wait for him to approach, I don't care how long it takes
3. Predict and react to his approach(how well you do this is what separates all the skill levels)
4. Rinse and repeat

 

[teluoborg]

Lol what Gluto did in that match (and in most of his matches) was not playing aggro, he was just zoning to take advantage of his opponent's errors.

Lrn2difference

 

[StarFruit]

@telu - I don't wanna argue how aggro that was, but it was definately not a normal falco.

Also ally's falco last night was definately not normal either. (genesis 2) He played alot of random characters but did well with them. He knocked out a few games from ADHD with his falco which definately says something. I forget who it was that said falco can't play like that in high level brawl...but i'm gonna disagree with you. And also i'll update the first post saying that the verdict has been ruled - "Defensive" However, I'm looking to see what some change can do and I'm eager to see some aggressive gameplay mixed up in all of the camping.

 

[B.A.M.]

Okay Falco can apply pressure if thats what you mean by aggro. However you have to know Falco's ranges. Obviously long distance is the safest and most assured damage. However at a particular range Falco's jab, ftilt, sh nair ( jump in), lasers, and retreating dairs in that jump in space allow falco to pressure. Falco has one of the best combination of pokes in the game. from there you can pressure an opponent and punish.

Now people are saying play Falco Defensively, im inferring they arent stating you shouldnt go Falco's frame traps. Running into shield all day is because you are being too aggro; heck Falco has frame traps on shield. it means you are being bad. There is good aggro for some characters. Falco has tons of solid frame traps. No matter how defensive an MK is, theyre not going to run away when they dtilt someone. Why? because its in their advantage and its stupid to do so. Same goes with Falco.

StarFruit; I would suggest that you watch DEHF obviously, but pay attention to reoccuring themes. Like places you can go for uair frame traps etc. How he DOUBLE JABS the majority of the time because usually jab 1 cancel sucks. Its just a gimmick. Where as double jab actually has more frame advantage and does cause some very solid mixups when done properly. Know soft hit bair combos into another bair etc. Pay attention to those things and the situations they are used in.

Watch some Shugo as well. Falco IS aggro with camping. Once he gets a punish be it a whiffed attack or your opponent simply in a bad position. Like someone just landing as you SHDL then you can goin in and go in hard because if you play your cards right you can go for safe and near guaranteed damage as long as you know how to set up his frame traps. At least thats what Larry showed me. Thats why I dont like referring to it all as camping. You have to think of your lasers as pokes. Continue to poke until you see a habit or an option that can be punished. Know what positions you can start an offense and reset. Falco has the luxury of going for awesome strings with his great frame data, just remember to learn WHEN to do so. Laser, ftilt, and jab are your top pokes. Dont Laser blindly; laser for a purpose.

 

[StarFruit]

Thanks the advice B.A.M. - however, I created this thread because I'm familiar with the common falco playstyle. I've watched DEHF quite often however I havn't watched much shugo so that will be interesting. I know that some aggressive-ness is just stupid. Running up and doing a dash attack or something like that isn't what i'm talking about however. My image of an offensive falco is something like this - playing normal falco (keeping good space, good lasers and pokes, maybe throw some reads and grabs in there) and then escaping those lasers for a few seconds maybe half a minute or so, and going for the mindgames and baiting/trapping the opponent. However now i'm not really sure something like this exists.

To all people:

Also i'm going to try to clear something up - I guess what i'm really looking for is something different. I say aggressive because falco is known to most as more a defensive player.

Also i'm not trying to harm the defensive playing style at all. I think its great and very well thought out. The time put into falco is alot of work and i totally respect that. I'm just looking to expand for all of us. Just keep in mind that i'm only trying to help.

 

[Host Change]

I play some aggressive Falco but I've been learning not to. The thing is it's not the right way to play him. I'm an up and coming player that's been going to smashfests every week for a couple of months now and prior to coming to those, my Falco was super aggro.

One of the things about playing super aggressive is it's really easy to punish if done incorrectly. One of my mistakes is before I started to significantly improve is I liked to start a lot of my combos with the dash attack. It's a horrible move for playing aggressive because it's easy to punish. Depending on the matchup it can be good to play that way in the air because Falco has a good juggling game.

My aggressive playstyle does have some perks though. However, I'm trying to play more defensive and break a lot of my habits. There's still always going to be a little of that aggression in my playstyle once I get everything down to be more unique, but defensive Falco is the way to go.

 

[theunabletable]

It's not about defensive or aggressive. If you know how to put yourself in a position to bait everything that you can bait, and punish everything that you bait, then generally being "defensive" and continually moving to the safest position will result in the most situations available for you to punish them.

But if you don't know all the things you can bait, and all the available things to punish, etc it probably won't make much of a difference whether you play defensive or aggro, except that if you're playing defensively, it'll probably just take longer for you to die, because of the nature of defensive options.

Basically it doesn't matter that much whether you're playing aggro or defensive until you're at the point mentally in-game that you probably won't even need to ask this question

 

[DEHF]

Being able to play aggressive and defensive styles well depends mostly on the match up you're playing. It's much easier to fight aggressively against Olimar or Marth than it is against a Metaknight or Kirby. Overall, playing defensively with Falco will probably get you further. The only match up I can think of that rewards you the most for playing aggressively is the Ice Climber match up.

 

[AllyKnight]

Being able to play aggressive and defensive styles well depends mostly on the match up you're playing. It's much easier to fight aggressively against Olimar or Marth than it is against a Metaknight or Kirby. Overall, playing defensively with Falco will probably get you further. The only match up I can think of that rewards you the most for playing aggressively is the Ice Climber match up.

Fox Fire Laser Gun

 

[StarFruit]

Okay guys i've taken another look at all the replies and realize through some common sense and some good reasoning that aggressive/different playstyles shouldn't really be played as a primary play style. If anyone very experienced *larry cough* could share some tips of when to bait/take advantage of a situation that would be awesome.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Hold forward, it's the only way to move forward in this debate.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Fox Fire Laser Gun

^ Listen to this man. His Falco takes games off ADHD and Gnes

 

[Laem]

How to Aggro falco by SK92
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3XLvEhGSEg

 

[SlashTalon]

To play either "style" effectively you have to be smart with Falco.

Being smart with Falco means making smart decisions consistently through a match in constant flux with your opponent. The correct "style" is adapting to your opponent so you damage them and you don't get damaged aka no-style.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Defensive is probably the best, Although, I myself play the agressive play style of Falco.

I would also like to see if these 2 play styles could be mixed somehow.

 

[Blondie.]

I know your not getting the replies you want , and I agree that falco needs to let the approaches come to him (I mean why approach when you dont have to), but heres a video of how to really play aggressive with falco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvQ0Qrnm4pA&feature=feedf