World 8 - The Mario Match-Up Index [8-2: Luigi, Doc]

[Xeze]

Good point. @ HeroMystic said a week ago we would move on to the next MU.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can we agree that ZSS is by far Mario's worst matchup?

-Superior range
-FLUDD and Cape will not gimp her recovery
-ZSS kills Mario's defense game with her grab being able to punish back roll and spot-dodge
-Blaster shots allow her to duck Mario's fireball, so trading projectiles becomes bad for Mario
-Mario's stumpy limbs don't allow him to punish ZSS properly on shield - he can't chase her down before she preps another move
-ZSS is fairly more weighted than the average lightweight, allowing her to survive a DSmash and USmash past 110%. Meanwhile, she can setup a grab-Uair or Up B kill combo at roughly 100%

As Mario, I don't think I've ever struggled harder against a character. Her defense/punish game is every bit as rough as her rushdown, and no matter how well you try to space, she'll get you. Especially with her Down B, which has a gigantic hitbox that will beat out all of Mario's attacks.

 

[meleebrawler]

Can we agree that ZSS is by far Mario's worst matchup?

-Superior range
-FLUDD and Cape will not gimp her recovery
-ZSS kills Mario's defense game with her grab being able to punish back roll and spot-dodge
-Blaster shots allow her to duck Mario's fireball, so trading projectiles becomes bad for Mario
-Mario's stumpy limbs don't allow him to punish ZSS properly on shield - he can't chase her down before she preps another move
-ZSS is fairly more weighted than the average lightweight, allowing her to survive a DSmash and USmash past 110%. Meanwhile, she can setup a grab-Uair or Up B kill combo at roughly 100%

As Mario, I don't think I've ever struggled harder against a character. Her defense/punish game is every bit as rough as her rushdown, and no matter how well you try to space, she'll get you. Especially with her Down B, which has a gigantic hitbox that will beat out all of Mario's attacks.

Mario is one of the few characters that can reasonably keep up with ZSS which at least keeps him in the game at all
times. Don't really see how trading projectiles is bad when reflecting is generally easier. You probably just shouldn't use
fireballs much at all here. Flip jump is super punishable if you shield or time a dodge well, and you can also use FLUDD
to mess up her positioning, sending her high in the air without the ability to use it again. Her kill setups can be DIed too,
and it won't be too easy for her to get that grab without significant risk.

 

[Xeze]

I agree, ZSS is not even close to Mario's worst matchup. It's actually one of the top tiers I have the easiest time with.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

That's surprising. The ZSS in general wasn't very good at all, but the first I've played with Mario and I had a hard time keeping up with his defensive play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ZSS is generally weird to fight because you need to know a lot of matchup specific things to play against her. That being said she's not that bad for Mario. Mario has a harder time against like...Ganon and Link frankly.

 

[Xeze]

ZSS is generally weird to fight because you need to know a lot of matchup specific things to play against her. That being said she's not that bad for Mario. Mario has a harder time against like...Ganon and Link frankly.

Good thing Ganondorf and Link are rarely seen in tournament play, eh?

 

[BSP]

Being Mario, you're also the only character that has a chance to KO her for whiffing boost kick at any %, something ZSS will be definitely be going for in the match..

ZSS is amazing once she lands that first hit or grab. Up until then, her neutral game isn't the best. Don't fall for paralyze tricks and you should be good to go.

Can Mario crouch under her Zair? That's something I need to look into.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Good thing Ganondorf and Link are rarely seen in tournament play, eh?

Link I think is actually super viable right now, and people really should abuse him more as a general pick.

Being Mario, you're also the only character that has a chance to KO her for whiffing boost kick at any %, something ZSS will be definitely be going for in the match..

ZSS is amazing once she lands that first hit or grab. Up until then, her neutral game isn't the best. Don't fall for paralyze tricks and you should be good to go.

Can Mario crouch under her Zair? That's something I need to look into.

Crouching + powershielding is generally pretty underrated. Especially since ZSS needs to space her aerials to get them to hit low to the ground, it's an option to mess with her neutral game.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, Mario mains! How's everything going with your MU discussions?

My apologies for interrupting anything, but the Kirby Boards are currently discussing the matchup with Mario, and it would be awesome for you all to give your input. We are currently under a test run in MU discussions, so any sort of evidence (videos, brackets, replays, etc.) would be well appreciated!

Here is the link of our humble MU abode, and if you guys wish, we can bring our opinions over to this thread.

With that, thank you for contributing with us!

 

[Gidy]

What do I do against a yoshi recovering?

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do I do against a yoshi recovering?

Either try to Cape/B-air him, or read his airdodge and U-smash. Yoshi is a rare matchup where Cape edgeguard can feasibly cover one of his common recovery options given his Up-B doesn't give him a lot of vertical mixup.

 

[miniada]

After facing some players and seeing the match of Ally at Apex (even though he didn't know the matchup at that time apparently), I think Mario doesn't have a good matchup against the ninja frog. Can someone confirm that or am I simply an idiot who doesn't know his MU ? (The second option is probably the right one.)

50:50 there is a matchup chart for greninja that talks about the matchup

 

[miniada]

What is marios matchup against peach like a user name Xeze said it's even but he didn't have much knowledge so is there anyone out there who has some good knowledge on peach and can provide a ratio

 

[Lukingordex]

How well Mario does against Sheik and Sonic?

 

[Xeze]

Mario has a bad MU vs both. I'd say 45:55 vs both. Sheik might be 40:60 though, I'm not quite sure.

 

[-Sensei-]

Any tips against a really good DK, especially one that is very good at powershielding fireballs?

 

[Xeze]

I usually use FLUDD as he approaches to mess up with his positioning. Try to get the most out of your combos and be prepared if he tries to escape with Up B to punish it.

 

[miniada]

Any tips against a really good DK, especially one that is very good at powershielding fireballs?

Make sure you through out your up tilt fast it can stop his up b from getting out he has laggy moves so be ready to punish and he is easy to gimp

 

[-Sensei-]

I don't have any issue racking up damage once I'm in. My problem is landing the kill move and getting past his range.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't have any issue racking up damage once I'm in. My problem is landing the kill move and getting past his range.

Try to just dominate the neutral game the entire match, no matter his %. The kill is going to come sometime, just don't try to force it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly the luigi MU feels really bad. Like 65:35 if they know how to mash without using the 2nd jump.

The only way I feel you can win is by going for hard reads and edgeguards. You can't even combo him properly.

His jabs beat ours, his fireballs protect him better, and he dominates the midrange with a vastly superior grab game. You will almost never live past 120% unless you're super far behind or ahead. Mario pretty much has to fight him head on and luigi can lose a lot of those exchanges and still come out on top.

Like watch ally play luigis, he just throws them off the stage at pretty much all percents. Gotta cut all combos short, can't even bait air dodges very well due to his floatiness + nair. Why even use this character here? Pretty much everything that makes mario good is invalidated.

 

[Xeze]

Against Luigi I use a lot of FLUDD to push him offstage and force him into a poorer position. Imo, that's the main tool Mario got over his brother. That and mobility. Luigi beats us in everything else.
If everything else fails I pull out my sub-main Samus.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fludd is nice when the luigi is on the defensive, but he really can just go ham and throw out dash grabs for the most part since he knows the punishes can't really be that hard generally. And fludd doesn't help with that.

 

[Xeze]

With customs, Mario beats Luigi with Fast Fireball and Shocking Cape. But we all know what's the future of them...

 

[Underhill]

With customs, Mario beats Luigi with Fast Fireball and Shocking Cape. But we all know what's the future of them...

What about Gust cape?

 

[Underhill]

Is there a MU discussion with Pikachu already done or no? If so, then we hope that we can talk about him next after Luigi and Doc.

 

[Xeze]

@ HeroMystic hasn't been on for quite a while to move this to the next MU discussion.

 

[DunnoBro]

What about Gust cape?

Shocking helps you land due to beating fireballs and the shield push it has on luigi. Not to mention actually beating that stupid nair.

Gust can lead to gimps but good luigis recover pretty low, I'd rather using shocking cape to help with neutral/damage output. (also imo it's a better gimping tool since he falls with it and has good horizontal knockback. It's essentially a fair)

And yea, this MU is much better in customs. Probably even unless mario just gets that much better at gimping. Fast fireballs are the perfect mid-range tool mario needs vs luigi.

 

[miniada]

45:55 we can gimp luigi pretty easy he has a hard time approching when mario has Fireballs raining down on him and our jab beats his grab and we can break out of his combos however luigi has better combos combo breakers and kill power he also has better options in the neutral this could be 50:50 but I don't think so

 

[DunnoBro]

45:55 we can gimp luigi pretty easy he has a hard time approching when mario has Fireballs raining down on him and our jab beats his grab and we can break out of his combos however luigi has better combos combo breakers and kill power he also has better options in the neutral this could be 50:50 but I don't think so

We don't gimp luigi "pretty easy" and unless we do gimp him, he's winning. Luigi lives on average longer than mario does in this MU, putting all the pressure on mario. It's NOT 45:55, it's 40:60 at best, I'd say with Ally, Zenyou, and my own opinion of the MU it's more like 35:65. You need to outplay him every step of the way, and then you need to outplay him some more. Gotta mix up EVERYTHING, you lose these trades hard and have a harder time killing due to the fact luigi's just don't air dodge.

Also he has a piss easy time approaching fireball rain. His fireballs clank from a more easily sustained position, and he can just shield them, our nair, and grab us. Going in the air to put out fireballs is asking to get shield grabbed, it's the same issue pikachu has. All that extra mobility don't mean **** with those fireballs and dash grab.

 

[TriTails]

I can understand the MU being 60:40 but 65:35 is a bit out of the line. You can cape his Fireballs and there's no real drawback on doing so. Luigi gets juggled really easily in this MU that if the Mario decides to **** him over on the ground with U-smash his only practical strategy is to reset to the lege, and that's bad. Luigi's recovery is prone to stage-spikes also.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Not sure where to put this, but i) leave it here. At the Pit/Dark Pit fourms, we're talking about Mario first in out new(ish) MU thread. Give us your inputs...that is all...bye.

http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-...for-the-gods-and-angels-who-kill-gods.414936/

 

[DunnoBro]

I can understand the MU being 60:40 but 65:35 is a bit out of the line. You can cape his Fireballs and there's no real drawback on doing so. Luigi gets juggled really easily in this MU that if the Mario decides to **** him over on the ground with U-smash his only practical strategy is to reset to the lege, and that's bad. Luigi's recovery is prone to stage-spikes also.

There's also no real point to caping the fireballs other than securing your landing since there's ample time to shield or put out another. But it only resets the situation with you grounded so you still need to forfeit stage control generally.

Luigi also does NOT get juggled "really easily" due to nair. He's harder to juggle than most characters by far, not just due to nair but the fact he doesn't really ever need to air dodge which is a fundamental necessity for mario to secure kills. As far as gimps though, at highest level a good luigi is almost as much of a gimping threat as mario is.

The big reason this MU is awful is simply because luigi is one of the harder characters for mario to kill due to his awkward disadvantage state. And luigi gets a LOT off this MU in rage.

A 120% luigi and 70% mario is luigi's favor, that's ridiculous. You need to beat luigi by A LOT. And mario's generally superior neutral doesn't come into play in this MU enough to consistently allow that like sheik or rosa.

 

[TriTails]

Caped Fireballs do like what? 8%? That's not bad considering it's a damage of one tilt.

And as a Luigi main I do not want my Fireballs to be reflected back at me, EVER. If he shields it you can throw another Fireball or even dashgrab. If he puts out another he's stuck like that for 43 frames. That ain't bad.

Partial incivibility U-smash >>>>>>>>>>> Luigi's aerials. Like, dude. Just U-smash. Beats everything Luigi has. If you try to juggle him to the air then you deserve to be N-aired. Landing is one of Luigi's biggest weaknesses because of horrible aerial mobility and floatiness. Cyclone ain't helping much, D-air doesn't hitbdownward very well, and combined with a godlike U-smash from Mario? Well, ****. Now we have to reset to the ledge or FF N-air if we are feeling bold. And when we get to the ledge, our options are punishable.

 

[DunnoBro]

At most ranges, you can either put out another fireball to challenge the caped one, or shield both the fireball and cape and dash grab his landing. Considering it just puts more damage on luigi, and pure damage doesn't really mean much in this MU it really isn't as big a boon as you think. Mario doesn't want blind damage added to luigi since rage cyclone will kill him at 65-80.

Neither is usmash, which while does cover landings well isn't enough to make up for the fact Mario has little mix-up game here due to nair creating a "no-zone". Mario also straight up loses the neutral and on-stage juggles aren't as helpful as off-stage situations. (Also don't forget luigi's usmash covers Mario's landings very well too. His landings are MUCH weaker in this MU)

You can deny it all you like but there's a reason players like Ally and Zenyou lose or have so much trouble with players clearly less experienced/skilled.

 

[TriTails]

Videos? I haven't seen Ally fighting a Luigi aside from Dakpo who iirc he came out victorious.

 

[DunnoBro]

Videos? I haven't seen Ally fighting a Luigi aside from Dakpo who iirc he came out victorious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQH-qTDTj4I

Ally was also talking about his match vs Dakpo and how relieved he was. Look at how he played dakpo, he almost NEVER tried to catch landings or set-up juggles. he won because he kept setting up edgeguards, which is almost always the best course of action for mario vs luigi. He won via edgeguards, not the "godlike usmash."

I'm not sure of his opinions on the MU specifically, but luigi in general is definitely his most hated character in sm4sh.

And the fact mario HAS to go for edgeguards at almost all percents is why this MU is so bad. Hard to do damage, hard to kill, only way mario beats lugi is to go ham with edgeguards.

Also compare Dakpo's ZSS (his main since 3ds) and his luigi vs Ally. His ZSS got BODIED. Barely got 1 stock off the whole set, his luigi did wayy better despite being a secondary. Likely because it's just a better MU. Unless we want to say mario beats ZSS very hard, it's likely luigi beats mario pretty hard.

 

[Xeze]

Mario either goes even with ZSS or has a small advantage. I was convinced for a long time that the Mario v Luigi MU was 45:55 but now I'm more into 40:60. Luigi beats Mario on everything except mobility. The only reason why this isn't a 35:65 is because Luigi is in trouble once he is offstage.

Btw is there any move Mario has that can clank or trade with Luigi's down B? That move has INSANE priority.

 

[CleanOgre]

I do believe it would be a good idea if we were to make another matchup thread since it seems HeroMystic isn't going to update this thread.